This will take some processing. But here are a few immediate thoughts following the big Season Four finale tonight of "Lost":
Namely — the name Jeremy Bentham. It's yet another moniker on this show borrowed from real life. Bentham was a philosopher (a contemporary of the real John Locke...yikes) who, according to this early but dead-on "Lost" theory, proposed the idea for the Panopticon, a type of prison:
"The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a 'sentiment of an invisible omniscience.' In his own words, Bentham described the Panopticon as 'a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example.' "
Discuss.
Some other notes:
In the continuation of our original flash-forward, when Kate backs up the car, they speak of Bentham. Kate says to Jack, "You believed him." Which implies that the impossible must come true in our bleak "Lost" future — empirical Jack comes around to spiritual Locke's way of thinking. It also is further proof that Locke somehow gets off the island. You know, proof other than his corpse...
Lots of spooky whispering tonight. Whispers in the jungle before the Others appear and slaughter the remaining mercenaries. Whispers before Christian appears to dismiss Michael from his duties, and his life. Penance paid, buh-bye!
Miles not only implies that Charlotte had previously been on the island, she herself later remarks that she's "still looking for where I was born." Another child possibly born on the pregnaphobic island? She's at least in her 20s. Who's daughter could she be?
Hurley playing chess with Mr. Eko. Nice.
Kate's dream about Claire, who shouts: "Don't bring him back!" Kate goes in to hold sleeping Aaron's hand, and she apologizes — as if she thinks Claire was chastising her for taking Aaron off the island? Or was Claire warning Kate not to return Aaron to the island in this upcoming journey Ben says the O6 must make back to the island?
Wherever that may be now...
Don't get who Jeremy Bentham is ???
Cant wait for season 5!
Further thoughts:
John Locke's most famous quote: "no man is an island"
Jeremy Bentham - philosopher most closely associated with utilitarism, the greatest good for the greatest number.
Producers stated that the fate of Ben's childhood friend Annie would be revealed in a later episode. Charlotte is no doubt this person.
couldn't charlotte be Ben's friend Anna or Annie I think was her name?
I am taking Jeremy Bentham to be more around the utilitarianism aspect. I found this quote of his and seems like it could be a good reason that when coming back from the island Locke took this name...
“ Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do. On the one hand the standard of right and wrong, on the other the chain of causes and effects, are fastened to their throne. They govern us in all we do, in all we say, in all we think...” - Jeremy Bentham
"No man is an island" is a quote from John Donne, not John Locke.
According to wikipedia, Jeremy Bentham had his body preserved and placed in a case for viewing, still in place today. However, the head is wax, not the real head. So - not the real John Locke in the coffin!
Questions answered:
1. We have a pretty good idea of why there were polar bears playing with levers on the island. And why there was a polar bear skeleton in the desert.
2. We can make an educated guess as to how the Black Rock is so far inland (occupying space in the water where the island moved to) and that, possibly, the island has been in cold-weather climates on one of its trips (another polar bear explanation).
Questions asked:
1. Why is Sayid lying to Hurley?
2. Where, and when, is the island now, considering how far Ben was hurled into the future when it moved?
3. Did anyone survive the boat explosion, and where are the folks in the freighter's skiff?
4. If Locke goes back to the island ... will he come back to life?
5. How the heck did Dharma find the island in the first place, since they're either doing some kind of social experiment or they didn't have a clue as to what they were dealing with in the island? And how old are the members of Richard's group?
6. Will Michael become part of Jacob's ghost squad (Christian, Claire)? Why do the "ghosts" primarily speak to people (Michael, Claire, foster parents Jack and Kate) who have had children (Walt, Aaron) living on the island? Are Charlie and Eko ghosts who are on the side of Jack's father or not?
7. Obvious questions: What did Sawyer say to Kate, what "bad things" happened on the island, why do the creators hate us??
Uh hello? Charlotte is a LITTLE YOUNG to be Bens playmate..dont cha think? She doesnt see in her late 40's to me!
""The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a 'sentiment of an invisible omniscience.' In his own words, Bentham described the Panopticon as 'a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example.' "
Discuss."
This is in fact the detention room at the Catholic Girls' High School where I spent my formative years. The detainees sat in study carrels facing the wall, and Sister at a desk in the middle of the room -- at least we thought Sister was there, but nobody dared turn round to see. The only hint we had that she was (at least often) there was that when we wished to leave the room, we had to raise our hands (without turning round) and someone would come to escort us there and back again.
To question #6: Hurley sees and talks to the most dead people and as we know it so far, he has no children. Other than that....all great questions!! :)
My thoughts/responses:
1. Why is Sayid lying to Hurley? Maybe because of his loose grip with reality??????
2. Where, and when, is the island now, considering how far Ben was hurled into the future when it moved? SHoot...how do we know that Ben went into the future?? Was there no swooosh sound at the change of scenes or because he showed up there with Jack? What did I miss?
"why do the creators hate us??" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
My questions:
Who is Christian (the one that hangs with Charolette?) and who is Richard (the one dude that said "welcome home" to Locke?)?
Aside from a mobile island...why else were polar bears on the island?
I dont remember anything about ben having a childhood friend nor do I remember the significance....anyone?
Jeremy Bentham....we only first heard that name in the finale, right? Should we know who that is? I mean, I get the historical/philosophical reference...but to the show....have we attached meaning yet?...a link within the show?
Thank you! :)
Questions asked:(and now answered)
1. Why is Sayid lying to Hurley?
A. because he is currently "working" for Ben and knows he needs to get Hurley back to the island. Hence the lying.
7. What did Sawyer say to Kate?
A. We don't know exactly what he said, but we do know it was basically..."If you get back (to the real world), do _____ for me." Because in the earlier episode, Kate is doing something for an unknown male behind Jacks back. Jack's upset because he knows it was for Sawyer, whom he dislikes.
so lame that Claire never got to find out that Jack is her brother.
Who is Christian (the one that hangs with Charolette?) and who is Richard (the one dude that said "welcome home" to Locke?)?
Christian is Jack's Dad and Clairs Dad too. He has encounters with a bunch of the other characters too. I don't know what you mean by the Christian that hangs out with Charlotte? The guy who she's always with is Danial. Richard is an Other...I think one episode hinted that he hasn't aged...but I'm not sure. He's one of the more well known others though.
Aside from a mobile island...why else were polar bears on the island?
because the island used to be somwhere cold and the polar bears move with the island. i dont think there is any other reason
I dont remember anything about ben having a childhood friend nor do I remember the significance....anyone?
in one of the episodes we see ben's back story. he came the island when he was young. his mother died in childbirth so his dad treats him badly. he kills all the dharma people and his dad. in this episode we also see that he has a friend named anna who he meets on his first day there.
Yes, we did know that Sawyer asked Kate to do something...BUT WHAT????.....what could be so important...what was it?
Season 5.....when does it start...? lol
Ben's childhood friend, Annie, is the one who gave him the dolls on his birthday. The birthday his father doesn't want to remember. What did Sawyer say to Kate? Probably about his baby. Why was Jack so bent out of shape about Aaron? Does he know Aaron is his nephew?
Why would Locke leave the island? He was the one most adamant about not leaving.
"A. because he is currently "working" for Ben and knows he needs to get Hurley back to the island. Hence the lying."
OOOOHHH!! Thaaats right!! They have "similar interests" or some stuff...I remember Ben manipulating him into this..by way of killing the love of his life and making it Sayid's fight....thanks...forgot!!
Why was Jack so bent out of shape about Aaron? Good question, have no idea
Does he know Aaron is his nephew? I believe so....at some point Jack did find out that Claire was his sister...can't remember exactly when, but I do remember that.
Why would Locke leave the island? He was the one most adamant about not leaving. I don't think he left and I don't think he died....or well if he died...that would be the only way he would have left.
Oh Christian is Jack and Claire's dad.....forgot his name.....
I did mean Daniel....."hangs with Charolette"..
Richard is an Other, yeah he is the one I thought he was.....he said welcome home to Locke in the last scene...Yeah I do believe that he does not age....because he saw Locke as a boy....when he "interviewed him for that "special" school...and he looked exactly the same, thats why I believe he does not age.
Mm I predicted earlier in Season 4 that it would be Locke in the coffin, just by the way Kate was referring to him when Jack spoke to her.
Who's to say that Richard isn't the father of Charlotte? If he hasn't aged, he could've been around for any amount of time. Or maybe she's Jacob's daughter (if Jacob is, or was, a human).
I don't understand what was said about Ben travelling into the future...where was this stated or implied in the finale? Clearly Ben and Locke are able to get off the island somehow, and Locke seems to have got off the island in order to deliver a message to the Oceanic 6 (that they have to go back). The way Ben was talking about Locke (pseudonym Bentham), implied that they didn't get off the island together.
So, Ben and Locke got off the island individually. Ben said that when he moves the island, he's not able to stay. Although, we only have his word for this, which is rarely trustworthy. So by moving the island, something took Ben off it. But how? We don't know. Maybe he was just left in the water and another boat came...but that seems a bit far-fetched. Maybe the island, or Jacob, let him choose somewhere to be 'teleported' when the island was moved. Or maybe something else happened, but I can't speculate further.
So how did Locke get off the island. Well, if you remember, in previous episodes we see that Ben had numerous passports and had been spotted off the island. So, however Ben was travelling to and from the island is most likely how Locke was able to do so. Not only this, but Tom (one of the others) managed to get off the island to speak to Michael. Were they using the submarine? Maybe. So if they were, how has Locke managed to get off the island without it? Maybe Locke and the Others managed to build another boat, or maybe the Island teleported to somewhere close to some mainland, whereby only a small raft is necessary. Again, we can only speculate.
I think the biggest mysteries are that of Jacob and Richard. The Others (including Ben) clearly know much more than they've told us so far. Once we know more about what they know of the Island, we'll be able to start formulating a picture.
It was said that bad things happened to people on the island after the 6 went home, Locke may have left the island to convince them that they had to go back.
http://www.timelooptheory.com
It will answer many of the questions this last poster had
Does he know Aaron is his nephew? I believe so....at some point Jack did find out that Claire was his sister...can't remember exactly when, but I do remember that...
yes Jack did find out because Jack runs into Claires mother at Christian's (Jack's dad) funeral and she tells Jack why his dad was in sidney and tells him that he had a sister on the flight named Claire. so from there he figures out that Aaron was related to him
Erm, the big post just above was by me (Warlord) not Keljean. Seems the names aren't showing correctly?
Ben gets teleported to the desert immediately following his actions in the finale. Remember how he just woke up in the middle of the Sahara (I think it was the Sahara) and killed those two guys on horses. I'm sure because he was cut on the arm in the same place he cut it in the finale, and had to fashion a bandage for it.
Personally, I think Locke, Claire, and Jin are still alive (or will be upon returning to the island in Locke's case). I'm not basing this on anything, just a hunch...
havent u noticed everytime someone hears those whispers someone mysterious appears..in the finale michael hears whispers and christian appears..i wonder what the whispers say
So can I ask a question? Does anyone think there are survivors of the ship after the explosion? Maybe Jin? Michael unlikely.
I think Ben moved the island he was teleported to Saudi Arabia. If you remember that clip Ben falls from the sky and lands in the dessert and has a Dharma winter jacket on.
the name from each post is under their post. Each post of mine has my name under my post.
ok so about the explosion....i do think there are survivors (also a hunch)....mainly i think that because the explosion happened around the same time as the moving of the island....there might be a loop-whole there. Also with the possibility of time-travel...maybe somehow that plays into it????
Ah yeah, the names are underneath! Sorry, that confused me!
Yep I just remembered that desert scene with the cut on his arm and the jacket, exactly the same as when he was moving the island. So he must get teleported there, I should've worked that one out!
I've been reading that Time-loop theory and I don't know what to make of it. I'm hesitant to believe it, if anything it seems a bit over-complicated for the average viewer of Lost to come to grips with when it's all finally explained. I just think that there will be a more simplistic explanation, but nevertheless an intriguing one.
Oh and on a side note, that also now makes sense about Ben going into the future. I think when he gets teleported to the desert, he's then in the future where Sayid has already been with Nadia for a while etc.
If we're going on the time-loop theory then I presume he's now in 2004, and he gets Sayid to work for him up until 2007 which is where the flash-forwards are now up to?
I think Ben moved the island he was teleported to Saudi Arabia. If you remember that clip Ben falls from the sky and lands in the dessert and has a Dharma winter jacket on.
makes total sense..did you notice ben was wearing halliwax's jacket (the chinese guy in the orientation movies)
OMG!!!....you guys must MUST check out this guy: http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/ugv/index?pn=player&pn=player&itemId=2749757
hilarious!! :)
mad props to this guy!!
disclaimer: you will have to sit through a 35 sec jeep commercial. boo
Warlord: Yeah the post/name thing confused me as well at first....
Ben teleported...Ben teleported. Good work everyone, I totally see that now. Thats cool, I feel like we totally got to the bottom of something, one thing!!
anyone check out that vid??
We know Jin will not survive as we have previously seen Sun visit his grave in a flash forward.
Pretty sure Jin's grave is a fake. Felt so at the time. He easily could have jumped off the boat. The grave is part of the big lie.
"We know Jin will not survive as we have previously seen Sun visit his grave in a flash forward."....UNLESS....
after the return of the O6, there were grave sites put in place for all of the "dead" from the non-survivors of Oceanic Flight 815....
sawyer whispers to kate that he has to go find his daughter and tell her about the money he's put in the bank for her. i bet.
Even if Jin were alive, Sun wouldn't know about it, she just saw the explosion.
Ok - I probably will only post here one time - but I agree that Ben time travelled when he landed in the desert. If you will recall - he went to check into a hotel and asked the date. When the clerk told him, he also asked the year, which was 2005.
I thought I would add something about the whispers that are heard during the show. During the re-cap show of the previous episode there was a mention of the whispers on the captions. It said something to the effect that when whispers are heard that danger is near. Makes sense with last night episode but I don't remember if that has always been the case. I'm pretty sure that I remember whispers in the jungle right before Ana Lucia was shot.
Somebody must remember this from previous episodes.
jin maybe alive as seen in a flash forward of him buying a panda bear for his boss or someone at the same time when sun was having her baby, jin left right away when he delivered the panda and the nurse said to him leaving already? he said not mine not married..
also I think that michael is the father of suns baby, as we know that jin was infertile. reason for this is in season 1 or 2 michael was very friendly with sun and jin was very jelous..
this is why sun made a valinate effort to let michael know she was pregnant, and it seemed that the look on his face told that story..
Doesn't anyone remember Jin buying the Panda Bear for the baby? I know he told the nurse he wasn't the father because he has only been married for a few months. I think he survived but cannot take the chance of letting Sun know. Protection I think.
A lot of people talk about the possibility that some who thought to be dead may still be alive...how about Charlie?? he could have escaped his watery tomb somehow...and reunited with Claire on the island...how about that for a surprising event????
I think Sun just assumes Jin is dead, but for all she -and we know- he could still be alive. I'd doubt he's on the island, as I don't see any way he could've made it back in time before the island teleported. Maybe he is just dead, who knows.
And yeah, I think Sawyer undoubtedly said something about his kid, and possibly the woman he screwed over. It seems that from earlier episodes, it was possible he loved her, but didn't want to settle down (just like Kate?) and so that's why he conned her eventually. Or maybe he just wanted the money to himself more than he wanted her ;-).
Why doesn't Richard age?
2.Where, and when, is the island now, considering how far Ben was hurled into the future when it moved? SHoot...how do we know that Ben went into the future?? Was there no swooosh sound at the change of scenes or because he showed up there with Jack? What did I miss?
i believe the island is there its just went forward in time. at the same time ben lands in the desert he has a wound on his arm same jacket.
Regarding Michael's "death," isn't it not possible for Michael to die since "the island won't let him?" That is what Tom told him before he was assigned to get on the boat. Maybe Michael is still alive even though the bomb went off in his face!