Lynn Sweet

Below, please find the complete rush transcript of the Democratic presidential debate hosted this evening by ABC News, the National Constitution Center, and WPVI-TV in Philadelphia.

News organizations using any excerpts must credit ABC News/National Constitution Center/WPVI-TV.

COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT of the DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE ON ABC

Tabbing and hard returns have been condensed for those on BlackBerry.

APRIL 16, 2008

SPEAKERS: SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, D-N.Y.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA, D-ILL.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC ANCHOR
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC ANCHOR

GIBSON: Good evening, and welcome. And it is fitting that we come
to you tonight the National Constitutional Center, just up Independence
Mall, from the Liberty Bell and Independence Hall itself.
And we are here in Philadelphia for the Pennsylvania Democratic
debate. The contest for the Democratic presidential nomination has gone
on for some time, to say the least. This is sort of round 15 in a
scheduled 10-rounder.
This debate comes after a long pause in the primary and caucus
schedule. It's been five weeks since the last votes were cast, six
weeks since last the candidates debated. Much has happened in those six
weeks, and there is much to discuss.
Just to reintroduce and give due respect to the candidates, Senator
Hillary Clinton of New York...

(APPLAUSE)
... and Senator Barack Obama of Illinois.
(APPLAUSE)

ABC News is pleased to sponsor the debate, along with the National
Constitutional Center. And while the candidates debate on stage, a
lively debate will also be unfolding online on ABCNews.com and on Facebook.

We have time guidelines for answers tonight: 90 seconds to answer a
question; 60 seconds for rebuttal. George and I are going to be very
lenient about time, but not permissive.

I have actually two clocks in front of me tracking the total time
that a candidate has spoken as the evening goes on. And if we find one
speaking longer than the other, we will do our best to equalize time in
the later stages of the evening.

I've asked the audience not to applaud during the debate. What's
important is not the reaction of those in the Kimmel Theater, but the
reaction of voters in Pennsylvania, who go to the polls next Tuesday,
and people around the country.

So we're going to begin with opening statements. And we had a flip
of the coin, and the brief opening statement first from Senator Obama.

OBAMA: Thank you very much, Charlie and George.
And thanks to all in the audience and who are out there.
You know, Senator Clinton and I have been running for 15 months
now. We've been traveling across Pennsylvania for at least the last
five weeks.

And everywhere I go, what I've been struck by is the core decency
and generosity of the people of Pennsylvania and the American people.
But what I've also been struck by is the frustration.

I met a gentleman in Latrobe who had lost his job and was trying to
figure out how he could find the gas money to travel to find a job. And
that story, I think, is typical of what we're seeing all across the country.

People are frustrated, not only with jobs moving and incomes being
flat, health care being too expensive, but also that special interests
have come to dominate Washington, and they don't feel like they're being
listened to.

I think this election offers us an opportunity to change that, to
transform that frustration into something more hopeful, to bring about
real change.

And I'm running for president to ensure that the American people are
heard in the White House. That's my commitment, if the people of
Pennsylvania vote for me and the people of America vote for me.
GIBSON: Senator Clinton?

CLINTON: Well, we meet tonight here in Philadelphia, where our
founders determined that the promise of America would be available for
future generations, if we were willing and able to make it happen.

You know, I am here, as is Senator Obama. Neither of us were
included in those original documents. But in a very real sense, we
demonstrate that that promise of America is alive and well.

But it is at risk. There is a lot of concern across Pennsylvania
and America. People do feel as though their government is not solving
problems, that it is not standing up for them, that we've got to do more
to actually provide the good jobs that will support families; deal once
and for all with health care for every American; make our education
system the true passport to opportunity; restore our standing in the world.

I am running for president because I know we can meet the challenges
of today, that we can continue to fulfill that promise that was offered
to successive generations of Americans, starting here, so long ago.

CLINTON: And I hope that, this evening, voters in
Pennsylvania and others across the country will listen carefully to what
we have to say, will look at our records, will look at the plans we
have. And I offer those on my Web site, hillaryclinton.com, for more
detail.

Because I believe with all my heart that we, the people, can have
the kind of future that our children and grandchildren so richly deserve.
GIBSON: Thank you, both.

And with that as preamble, we will take a very short commercial
break, and we will come back and begin 90 minutes of debate. The
Pennsylvania Democratic debate continues after just one minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NARRATOR: "The executive power shall be vested in a president of
the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term
of four years."

Live from the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania, once again, Charles Gibson and George Stephanopoulos.

GIBSON: We'll begin each of the segments of this debate with short
quotes from the Constitution that are apropos to what we're going to
talk about. And it is good to be back here at the National Constitution
Center.

So let's start. And I'm going to give a general question before we
get to the issues to both of you on politics.

There have already been many votes in many states. And you have
each, as you analyze the vote, appealed disproportionately to different
constituencies in the party. And that dismays many in the party.

Governor Cuomo, on elder statesman in your party, has come forward
with a suggestion. He has said, "Look, fight it to the end. Let every
vote be counted. You can test every delegate. Go at each other right
till the end. Don't give an inch to one another. But pledge now that
whichever one of you wins this contest, you'll take the other as your
running mate, and that the other one will agree, if they lose, to take
second place on the ticket."

So I put the question to both of you: Why not? (LAUGHTER)
Don't all speak at once.
(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: Well, I'm happy to start with a response.
Look, this has been an extraordinary journey that both Senator
Clinton and I have been on and a number of other able candidates. And I
think very highly of Senator Clinton's record.
But as I've said before, I think it's premature at this point for us
to talk about who vice presidential candidates will be, because we're
still trying to determine who the nominee will be.
But one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that, come August, when
we're in Denver, the Democratic Party will come together, because we
have no choice if we want to deliver on the promises that not only we've
made but the Founders made.
We are seeing people's economic status slipping further and further
behind. We've seen people who have not only lost their jobs but now are
at risk of losing their homes. We have a sharp contrast in terms of
economic policies. John McCain wants to continue four more year of
George Bush policies and, on the foreign policy front, wants to continue
George Bush's foreign policy.
So I'm confident that both Senator Clinton's supporters and Senator
Obama's supporters will be supporting the Democratic nominee when we
start engaging in that general election.
GIBSON: But, Senator Clinton, Governor Cuomo made that suggestion
because he's not so sure, and other Democrats are not so sure.
Just to quote from the Constitution again, "In every case" --
Article II, Section 1 -- "after the choice of the president, the person
having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be the vice
president."
If it was good enough in colonial times, why not in these times?
CLINTON: Well, Charlie, I'm going to do everything I possibly can
to make sure that one of us takes the oath of office next January. I
think that has to be the overriding goal, whatever we have to do.
CLINTON: Obviously, we are still contesting to determine who
will be the nominee. But once that is resolved, I think it is
absolutely imperative that our entire party close ranks. That we become
unified. I will do everything to make sure that the people who
supported me support our nominee. I will go anywhere in the country to
make the case.
And I know that Barack feels the same way because both of us have
spent 15 months traveling our country. I have seen the damage of the
Bush years. I've seen the extraordinary pain that people have suffered
from because of the failed policies. You know, those who have held my
hands who've lost sons or daughters in Iraq. And those who have lost
sons or daughters because they didn't have health insurance.
And so, regardless of the differences there may be between us, and
there are differences, they pale in comparison to the differences
between us and Senator McCain. So, we will certainly do whatever is
necessary to make sure that a Democrat is in the White House next January.
GIBSON: All right. I will let this go. I don't think Governor
Cuomo has any takers yet. Let me start with a question to you, Senator
Obama.
Talking to a closed-door fund-raiser in San Francisco 10 days ago,
you got talking in California about small town Pennsylvanians who have
had tough economic times in recent years. And you said they get bitter
and they cling to guns or they cling to their religion or they cling to
antipathy toward people who are not like them. You said you misspoke.
You said you mangled what it was you wanted to say. But we've talked to
a lot of voters. Do you understand that some people in this state find
that patronizing and think that you said actually what you meant?
OBAMA: Well I think there's no doubt that I can see how people were
offended. It's not the first time that I've made a statement that was
mangled up. It's not going to be the last.
But let me be very clear about what I meant because it's something
that I've said in public. It's something that I've said on television,
which is that people are going through very difficult times right now.
And we are seeing it all across the country. And that was true even
before the current economic hardships that are stemming from the housing
crisis. This is the first economic expansion that we just completed
in which ordinary people's incomes actually went down when adjusted for
inflation. At the same time, the costs of everything from health care
to gas at the pump has skyrocketed. And so the point I was making was
that when people feel like Washington's not listening to them, when
they're promised year after year, decade after decade, that their
economic situation is going to change and it doesn't, then, politically,
they end up focusing on those things that are constant like religion.
They end up feeling this is a place where I can find some refuge.
This is something I can count on. They end up being much more concerned
about votes around things like guns, where traditions have been passed
on from generation to generation. And those are incredibly important to
them. And, yes, what is also true is that wedge issues, hot-button
issues, end up taking prominence in our politics.
And part of the problem is that when those issues are exploited, we
never get to solve the issues that people really have to get some relief
on, whether it's health care or education or jobs.
So, this is something that I've said before. It is something that I
will repeat again. And, yes, people are frustrated and angry about it.
But what we're seeing in this election is the opportunity to break
through that frustration. And that's what our campaign has been about.
Saying that if the American people get involved and engaged, then we are
going to start seeing change. And that's what makes this election unique.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I am the granddaughter of a factory worker from
Scranton who went to work in the Scranton lace mills when he was 11-
years-old. Worked his entire life there, mostly six to eight weeks. He
was also very active in the Court Street Methodist Church. And he
raised three sons and was very proud that he sent all of them to college.
I don't believe that my grandfather or my father or the many people
whom I have had the privilege of knowing and meeting across Pennsylvania
over many years cling to religion when Washington is not listening to them.
I think that is a fundamental sort of misunderstanding of the role
of religion and faith in times that are good and times that are bad.
CLINTON: And I similarly don't think that people cling to
their traditions, like hunting and guns, either, when they are
frustrated with the government. I just don't believe that's how people
live their lives.
Now, that doesn't mean that people are not frustrated with the
government. We have every reason to be frustrated, particularly with
this administration.
But I can see why people would be taken aback and offended by the
remarks. And I think what's important is that we all listen to one
another, and we respect one another, and we understand the different
decisions that people make in life, because we're a stronger country
because of that.
And, certainly, the weeks that I have spent crisscrossing
Pennsylvania, from Erie to Lancaster County, and meeting a lot of
wonderful people, says to me that, despite whatever frustration anyone
has with our government, people are resilient, they are positive, and
they're ready for leadership again that will summon them to something
greater than themselves and that we will deliver on that, if given a chance.
GIBSON: We're going to have some other questions on the same theme,
so you'll be able to get back to that.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me pick up on this. When these comments from
Senator Obama broke on Friday, Senator McCain's campaign immediately
said that it was going to be a killer issue in November.
Senator Clinton, when Bill Richardson called you to say he was
endorsing Barack Obama, you told him that Senator Obama can't win. I'm
not going to ask you about that conversation; I know you don't want to
talk about it. But a simple yes or no question: Do you think Senator
Obama can beat John McCain or not?
CLINTON: Well, I think we have to beat John McCain, and I have
every reason to believe we're going to have a Democratic president and
it's going to be either Barack or me. And we're going to make that happen.
And what is important is that we understand exactly the challenges
facing us in order to defeat Senator McCain.
He will be a formidable candidate; there isn't any doubt about
that. He has a great American story to tell. He's a man who has served
our country with distinction over many years, but he has the wrong ideas
about America, and those ideas will be tested in the caldron of this
campaign.
But I also know, having now gone through 16 years of being on the
receiving end of what the Republican Party dishes out, how important it
is that we try to go after every single vote, everywhere we possibly
can, to get to those electoral votes that we're going to need to have
the next president elected.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But the question is: Do you think Senator Obama
can do that? Can he win?
CLINTON: Yes, yes, yes. Now, I think that I can do a better job.
(LAUGHTER)
I mean, obviously, that's why I'm here. I think I am better able
and better prepared, in large measure, because of what I've been
through, and the work that I've done, and the results that I've produced
for people, and the coalition that I have put together in this campaign,
that Charlie referred to earlier.
Obviously, I believe I would be the best president or I would not
still be here standing on this stage, and I believe I'm the better and
stronger candidate against Senator McCain, to go toe-to-toe with him on
national security and on how we turn the economy around.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, do you think Senator Clinton can win?
OBAMA: Absolutely, and I've said so before. But I, too, think that
I'm the better candidate.
(LAUGHTER)
And I don't think that surprises anybody.
Let me just pick up on a couple of things that Senator Clinton said,
though, because during the course of the last few days, you know, she's
said I'm elitist, out of touch, condescending.
Let me be absolutely clear: It would be pretty hard for me to be
condescending towards people of faith since I'm a person of faith and
have done more than most other campaigns in reaching out specifically to
people of faith, and have written about how Democrats make an error when
they don't show up and speak directly to people's faith, because I think
we can get those votes, and I have in the past.
The same is true with respect to gun-owners. I have large numbers
of sportsmen and gun-owners in my home state, and they have supported me
precisely because I have listened to them and I know them well.
So the problem that we have in our politics, which is fairly
typical, is that you take one person's statement, if it's not properly
phrased, and you just beat it to death. And that's what Senator
Clinton's been doing over the last four days.
And I understand that. That's politics. And I expect to have to go
through this process.
But I do think it's important to recognize that it's not helping
that person who's sitting at the kitchen table who is trying to figure
out how to pay the bills at the end of the month.
And Senator Clinton's right: She has gone through this. You know,
I recall when, back in 1992, when she made a statement about how, what
do you expect, should I be at home baking cookies? And people attacked
her for being elitist and this and that.
CLINTON: And I remember watching that on TV and saying, well,
that's not who she is. That's not what she believes. That's not what
she meant.
And I'm sure that that's how she felt, as well. But the problem is
that that's the kind of politics that we've been accustomed to. And I
think Senator Clinton learned the wrong lesson from it because she's
adopting the same tactics.
What the American people want are not distractions. They want to
figure out, how are we going to actually deliver on health care? How
are we going to deliver better jobs for people? How are we going to
improve their incomes? How are we going to send them to college? That's
what we have to focus on. And, yes, they are, in part, frustrated and
angry, because this is what passes for our politics instead of figuring
out how do we build coalitions to actually move things forward.
CLINTON: Well, could I...
GIBSON: Senator Clinton, before I move on, do you want to do a
brief response?
CLINTON: I do. First of all, I want to be very clear. My comments
were about your remarks. And I think that's important because it wasn't
just me responding to them, it was people who heard them, people who
felt as though they were aimed at their values, their quality of life,
the decisions that they have made.
Now, obviously, what we have to do as Democrats, is make sure we get
enough votes to win in November. And as George just said, the
Republicans, who are pretty shrewd about what it takes to win, certainly
did jump on the comments.
But what's important here is what we each stand for and what our
records are, and what we have done over the course of our lives, to try
to improve the circumstances of those who deserve to live up to their
own potential, to make the decisions that are right for them and their
families.
And I think year after year, for, now, 35 years, I have a proven
record of results. And what I'm taking into this campaign is my passion
for empowering people, for giving people the feeling that they can make
a better future for themselves.
And I think it's important that that starts from a base of respect
and connection in order to be able to get people to follow you and
believe that you will lead them in the better direction.
GIBSON: Senator Obama, since you last debated, you made a
significant speech in this building on the subject of race and your
former pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And you said subsequent to
giving that speech that you never heard him say from the pulpit the
kinds of things that so have offended people.
But more than a year ago, you rescinded the invitation to him to
attend the event when you announced your candidacy. He was to give the
invocation. And according to the reverend, I'm quoting him, you said to
him: "You can get kind of rough in sermons. So, what we've decided is
that it's best for you not to be out there in public." I'm quoting the
reverend.
But what did you know about his statements that caused you to
rescind that invitation? And if you knew he got rough in sermons, why
did it take you more than a year to publicly disassociate yourself from
his remarks?
OBAMA: Well, understand that I hadn't seen the remarks that ended
up playing on YouTube repeatedly. This was a set of remarks that had
been quoted in Rolling Stone magazine and we looked at them. And I
thought that they would be a distraction, since he had just put them
forward.
But, Charlie, I've discussed this extensively. Reverend Wright is
somebody who made controversial statements, but they were not of the
sort that we saw that offended so many Americans. And that's why I
specifically said that these comments were objectionable. They're not
comments that I believe in. And I disassociated myself with them.
And what I also said was the church and the body of Reverend
Wright's work over the course of 30 years were not represented in those
snippets that were shown on television and that the church has done
outstanding work in ministries, on HIV/AIDS, prison ministries,
providing people with the kind of comfort that we expect in our churches.
And so, what I think I tried to do in the speech here at the
Constitution Center was speak to a broader context, which is that there
is anger in the African-American community that sometimes gets
expressed, whether in the barbershop or in the church. That's true not
just in the African-American community. That's true in other
communities, as well.
But what we have the opportunity to do is to move beyond it. And
that's what I think my candidacy represents. And Senator Clinton
mentioned earlier, that we have to connect with people. That's exactly
what we've done throughout this campaign.
The reason we've attracted new people into the process, the reason
we've generated so much excitement, the reason that we have been so
successful in so many states across the country, bridging racial lines,
bridging some of the old divisions, is because people recognize that,
unless we do, then we're not going to be able to deliver on the promises
that people hear every 4 years, every 8 years, every 12 years.
OBAMA: And it's my job in this campaign to try to move beyond
some of those divisions, because when we are unified there is nothing
that we cannot tackle.
GIBSON: Senator Clinton, let me -- I'm sorry, go ahead -- Senator
Clinton, let me follow-up and let me add to that.
You have said that, "He would not have been my pastor," and you said
that you have to speak out against those kinds of remarks and
implicitly, by getting up and moving, and I presume you mean out of the
church. There are 8,000 members of Senator Obama's church, and we have
heard the inflammatory remarks of Reverend Wright, but so, too, have we
heard testament to many great things that he did.
Do you honestly believe that 8,000 people should have gotten up and
walked out of that church?
CLINTON: I was asked a personal question, Charlie, and I gave a
personal answer. Obviously, one's choice of church and pastor is rooted
in what one believes is what you're seeking in church and what kind of,
you know, fellowship you find in church.
But I have to say that, you know, for Pastor Wright to have given
his first sermon after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the
attack, which happened in my city of New York, would have been just
intolerable for me. And, therefore, I would have not been able to stay
in the church.
And maybe it's, you know, just, again, a personal reflection that,
regardless of whatever good is going on, and I have no reason to doubt
that a lot of good things were happening in that church.
You get to choose your pastor. You don't choose your family, but
you get to choose your pastor. And when asked a direct question, I said
I would not have stayed in the church.
OBAMA: Well, let me just respond to two things. Absolutely, many
of these remarks were objectionable. I've already said that I didn't
hear them because I wasn't in church that day. I didn't learn about
those statements until much later. But...
GIBSON: But you did rescind the invitation to him...
OBAMA: But that was on something entirely different, Charlie. That
was on a different statement. And I think that what Senator Clinton
referred to was extremely offensive, to me and a lot of people.
But what I should also point out is that Senator Clinton's former
pastor publicly talked about how Reverend Wright was being caricatured
and that, in fact, this is somebody who had maintained an extraordinary
ministry for many years.
And so there are two important points. Number one, I wasn't aware
of all these statements, and I can understand how people would take offense.
But, number two, the church is a community that extends beyond the
pastor. And that church has done outstanding work for many, many years.
The third point I guess I would make is, once again, that unless we
can bridge some of these divides, we're not going to solve problems in
this country. And what my entire body of work over the last 20 years
has been devoted to is getting blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, Native
Americans, young, old to work together, starting when I was a community
organizer.
And my own life embodies that diversity. That's what America is
about, and that's what this campaign has been about.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, two questions. Number one, do you think
Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do? And, number two, if
you get the nomination, what will you do when those sermons are played
on television again and again and again?
OBAMA: You know, George, look, if it's not this, then it would be
something else. I promise you, if Senator Clinton got the nomination,
there will be a whole bunch of video clips about other things.
In a general election, we know that there are going to be all kinds
of attacks launched and leveled. There have been quite a few leveled in
this primary campaign.
And I have confidence in the American people that when you talk to
the American people honestly and directly about what I believe in, what
my plans are on health care, on energy, when they see my track record of
the work that I've done on behalf of people who really need help, I have
absolute confidence that they can rally behind my campaign.
And, you know, the notion that somehow that the American people are
going to be distracted once again by comments not made by me, but
somebody who is associated with me that I have disowned, I think doesn't
give the American people enough credit.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You've disowned him?
OBAMA: The comments, comments that I've disowned. Then that is not
something I...
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you do believe he's as patriotic as you are?
OBAMA: This is somebody who's a former marine. So, I believe that
he loves this country. But I also believe that he's somebody who,
because of the experiences he's had over the course of a lifetime, is
also angry about the injustices that he's had.
GIBSON: I'm getting a little out of balance here. Do you want to
take a few seconds or do you want to go to the next question?
CLINTON: I think in addition to the questions about Reverend Wright
and what he said and when he said it, and for whatever reason he might
have said these things, there were so many different variations on the
explanations that we heard.
And it is something that I think deserves further exploration
because clearly, what we've got to figure out is how we're going to
bring people together in a way that overcomes the anger, overcomes the
divisiveness and whatever bitterness there may be out there. You know?
It is clear that, as leaders, we have a choice who we associate with
and who we apparently give some kind of seal of approval to. And I
think that it wasn't only the specific remarks but some of the
relationships with Reverend Farrakhan, with giving the church bulletin
over to the leader of Hamas, to put a message in.
You know, these are problems. And they raise questions in people's
minds. And, so, this is a legitimate area, as everything is, when we
run for office, for people to be exploring and trying to find answers.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, we also did a poll today. And
there's also questions about you raised in this poll. About six in 10
voters that we talk to say they don't believe you're honest and
trustworthy. And we asked a lot of Pennsylvania voters for questions
that they had. A lot them raised this honesty issue and your comments
about being under sniper fire in Bosnia. Here's Tom Rooney from Pittsburgh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TOM ROONEY, VOTER: Senator Clinton, how do
you reconcile the campaign credibility that you have when you made those
comments about what happened getting off the plane in Bosnia, which
totally misrepresented what really happened on that day? You really lost
my vote. And what can you tell me to get that vote back?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Well, Tom, I can tell you that I may be a lot of things.
But I'm not dumb. And I wrote about going to Bosnia in my book in
2004. I laid it all out there. And you're right. On a couple of
occasions in the last weeks, I just said some things that weren't in
keeping with what I knew to be the case and what I had written about in
my book.
And, you know, I'm embarrassed by it. I have apologized for it.
I've said it was a mistake. And it is, I hope, something that you can
look over because, clearly, I am proud that I went to Bosnia. It was a
war zone. General Wesley Clark is here in the audience with me, as one
of my major supporters. He and I were talking about it before I came out.
You know, our soldiers were there to try to police and keep the
peace in a very dangerous area. They were totally in battle gear. There
were concerns about potential dangers. The former president of Bosnia
has said he was worried about the safety of the situation.
So, I know that it is something that some people have said wait a
minute. What happened here? But I have talked about this and written
about it. And then, unfortunately, in a few occasions, I was not as
accurate as I have been in the past.
But I know, too, that being able to rely on my experience of having
gone to Bosnia, gone to more than 80 countries, having represented the
United States in so many different settings, gives me a tremendous
advantage going into this campaign, particularly against Senator McCain.
So, I will either try to get more sleep, Tom or, you know, have
somebody that, you know, is there, as a reminder to me. You know, you
can go back for the past 15 months. We both have said things that, you
know, turned out not to be accurate. You know, that happens when you're
talking as much as we have talked. But, you know, I'm very sorry that I
said it. And I have said that, you know, it just didn't jive with what
I had written about and knew to be the truth.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, your campaign has sent out a cascade
of e-mails just about every day, questioning Senator Clinton's
credibility. And you, yourself, said she hasn't been fully truthful
about what she would do as president. Do you believe that Senator
Clinton has been fully truthful about her past?
OBAMA: Well, look, I think that Senator Clinton has a strong
record to run on. She wouldn't be here if she didn't.
And, you know, I haven't commented on the issue of Bosnia. You
know, I...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Your campaign has.
OBAMA: Of course. But the -- because we're asked about it.
But, look, the fact of the matter is, is that both of us are working
as hard as we can to make sure that we're delivering a message to the
American people about what we would do as president. Sometimes that
message is going to be imperfectly delivered because we are recorded
every minute of every day.
And I think Senator Clinton deserves the right to make some errors
once in a while. Obviously, I make some as well.
I think what's important is to make sure that we don't get so
obsessed with gaffes that we lose sight of the fact that this is a
defining moment in our history. We are going to be tackling some of the
biggest issues that any president has dealt with in the last 40 years.
Our economy is teetering not just on the edge of recession but
potentially worse. Our foreign policy is in a shambles. We are
involved in two wars. People's incomes have not gone up, and their
costs have. And we're seeing greater income inequality now than any
time since the 1920s.
In those circumstances, for us to be obsessed with this -- these
kinds of errors I think is a mistake. And that's not what our campaign
has been about.
What our campaign has been about is offering some specific solutions
to how we move these issues forward and identifying the need to change
the culture in Washington, which we haven't talked at all about but that
has blocked real reform decade after decade after decade.
That, I think, is the job of the next president of the United
States. That's what I intend to do. That's why I'm running.
(APPLAUSE) GIBSON: And, Senator Obama, I want to do one more
question, which goes to the basic issue of electability. And it is a
question raised by a voter in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, a woman by the name
of Nash McCabe. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NASH MCCABE, VOTER: Senator Obama, I have a question, and I want to
know if you believe in the American flag. I am not questioning your
patriotism, but all our servicemen, policemen and EMS wear the flag. I
want to know why you don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIBSON: Just to add to that, I noticed you put one on yesterday.
But you've talked about this before, but it comes up again and again
when we talk to voters. And, as you may know, it is all over the Internet.
And it's something of a theme that Senators Clinton and McCain's
advisers agree could give you a major vulnerability if you're the
candidate in November.
How do you convince Democrats that this would not be a vulnerability?
OBAMA: Well, look, I revere the American flag. And I would not be
running for president if I did not revere this country.
This is -- I would not be standing here if it wasn't for this
country. And I've said this -- again, there's no other country in which
my story is even possible. Somebody who was born to a teenage mom,
raised by a single mother and grandparents from small towns in Kansas,
you know, who was able to get an education and rise to the point where I
can run for the highest office in the land, I could not help but love
this country for all that it's given me.
And so, what I've tried to do is to show my patriotism by how I
treat veterans when I'm working in the Senate Veterans Affairs
Committee; by making sure that I'm speaking forcefully about how we need
to bring this war in Iraq to a close, because I think it is not serving
our national security well and it's not serving our military families
and our troops well; talking about how we need to restore a sense of
economic fairness to this country, because that's what this country has
always been about, is providing upward mobility and ladders to
opportunity for all Americans.
That's what I love about this country. And so I will continue to
fight for those issues.
And I am absolutely confident that during the general election, that
when I'm in a debate with John McCain, people are not going to be
questioning my patriotism; they are going to be questioning, how can you
make people's lives a little bit better?
OBAMA: And let me just make one last point on this issue of
the flag pin. As you've noted, I wore one yesterday when a veteran
handed it to me, who himself was disabled and works on behalf of
disabled veterans.
I have never said that I don't wear flag pins or refuse to wear flag
pins. This is the kind of manufactured issue that our politics has
become obsessed with and, once again, distracts us from what should be
my job when I'm commander-in-chief, which is going to be figuring out
how we get our troops out of Iraq and how we actually make our economy
better for the American people.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And, Senator, if you get the nomination, you'll have...
(APPLAUSE)
... to beat back these distractions.
And I want to give Senator Clinton a chance to respond, but first a
follow-up on this issue, general theme of patriotism, in your
relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers. He was part of the
Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the
Capitol, and other buildings. He's never apologized for that.
And, in fact, on 9/11, he was quoted in the New York Times saying,
"I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough." An early
organizing meeting for your State Senate campaign was held at his house
and your campaign has said you are "friendly."
Can you explain that relationship for the voters and explain to
Democrats why it won't be a problem?
OBAMA: George, but this is an example of what I'm talking about.
This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English
in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official
endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a
regular basis.
And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody
who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old,
somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense, George.
The fact is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most
conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who, during his
campaign, once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death
penalty to those who carried out abortions.
Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I
certainly don't agree with those, either.
So this kind of game in which anybody who I know, regardless of how
flimsy the relationship is, that somehow their ideas could be attributed
to me, I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not
going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it
obviously isn't.
CLINTON: Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also
believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period
of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position.
And, if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this
board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were
deeply hurtful to people in New York and, I would hope, to every
American, because they were published on 9/11, and he said that he was
just sorry they hadn't done more.
And what they did was set bombs. And in some instances, people
died. So it is -- I think it is, again, an issue that people will be
asking about.
And I have no doubt -- I know Senator Obama's a good man and I
respect him greatly, but I think that this is an issue that certainly
the Republicans will be raising.
And it goes to this larger set of concerns about how we are going to
run against John McCain. You know, I wish the Republicans would
apologize for the disaster of the Bush-Cheney years and not run anybody,
just say that it's time for the Democrats to go back into the White House.
(APPLAUSE)
Unfortunately, they don't seem to be willing to do that. So we know
that they're going to be out there, full force.
And, you know, I've been in this arena for a long time. I have a
lot of baggage, and everybody has rummaged through it for years.
(LAUGHTER)
And so, therefore, I have an opportunity to come to this campaign
with a very strong conviction and feeling that I will be able to
withstand whatever the Republicans send our way.
OBAMA: Look, I'm going to have to respond to this just really
quickly, but by Senator Clinton's own vetting standards, I don't think
she would make it, since President Clinton pardoned or commuted the
sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is a
slightly more significant act...
(APPLAUSE) GIBSON: Please.
OBAMA: ... than me serving on a board with somebody for actions
that he did 40 years ago.
Look, there is no doubt that the Republicans will attack either of us.
OBAMA: Look, there is no doubt, that the Republicans will
attack either of us. What I've been able to display during the course
of this primary, is that I can take a punch. I've taken some pretty
good ones from Senator Clinton.
And I don't begrudge her of that. That's part of what the political
contest is about. I am looking forward to having a debate with John
McCain. And I think every poll indicates that I am doing just as well,
if not better, in pulling together the coalition that will defeat John
McCain.
When it comes to November and people go to the polling place,
they're going to be asking, are we going to go through four more years
of George Bush economic policies? Are we going through four more years
of George Bush foreign policy? If we as Democrats and if I as the
nominee have put forward a clear vision for how we're going to move the
country forward, deal with issues like energy dependence, lower gas
prices, provide health care, get our troops out of Iraq, that is a
debate that I'm happy to have and a debate that I'm confident that I can
win.
CLINTON: And, Senator Clinton, I'm getting out of balance in terms
of time. You're getting short-changed here. If you want to reply here,
fine. If you want to wait, we'll do it in the next half hour.
CLINTON: We can wait.
GIBSON: All right. We'll take a commercial break. We will come
back to the Democratic debate from the city of Philadelphia, before the