I think 4 classes is a great thing. Your Peoria Central and Manual argument has no basis since the Peoria schools are non-boundaried schools and kids in Peoria can petition to go to those schools if they offer something they want....that's how the Peoria All-Star teams are always good. How can it possibly be fair that schools with 4000 compete against public schools with 800 or 900...that's ridiculous. The downstate schools and AA schools from throughout the state that argue against it are generally in the 1500-2000 range, so they don't have to face the huge schools with 3000-4000 students. Their paths to Peoria are generally against schools their own size rather than 2, 3, or 4 times their size. When I am speaking here, I'm not refering to private schools since everyone knows they play by their own rules anyway or public schools that are non-boundaried.

At the very least the four champions should play each other. Similar to what Ind. does?

One class was and is the only way to play a state tourmament that means anything, not just something. Nothing was greater than Hebron, Cobden and little St. Anthony's of Effingham falling one point short of knocking off unbeaten LaGrange who survived the scare to win in 1970. Indiana ruined their tournament as well. No more Milans there. No more Hebrons here. It meant much more to GET to the Sweet 16 and to Champaign than to win a watered down tournament...and it meant more for kids from the country or small schools to go man to man with the big kids from the cities. Instead of four classes, why don't they just divide the state into enough classes to have 16 teams in each one...thus, everyone would make the Sweet 16.

The IHSA is a democracy run by its member schools for the benefit of its member schools. It is not run for the benefit of high school sports fans.

In the the IHSA, there are (1) more small schools than large schools (2) more non-Chicago area schools than Chicago area schools and (3) more public schools than private schools.

Because the IHSA is controlled by small, public, non-Chicago area schools, expect to see (1) more classes for basketball in the future like 6 or even 8 classes (2) all major tournaments will continue to be held outside the Chicago area and (3) expect the multiplier to continue to grow to 2.0, 3.0 or even 4.0 or until the private schools stop winning so many state championships in football.

O'Brien says: Kevin, everything you say is true. I find it interesting that the IHSA tends to talk about "number of schools" not "number of kids." I've always wondered why a school with an enrollment of 300 should have the same vote as a school with 3,000 students.

I don't know why we have only four. Why not 50 or 100 or one from every county in the state. Or one for teams with only short players and one for teams with too many left handers and one for teams with long hair, and one for skinheads, and then all white teams and all black teams.Then every poor underappreciated athelete in Illinois could finally feel good about themselves and their poor overprotective parents wouldn't have to worry about the fragile egos of their little babies. iamball

O'Brien: You can't have it both ways. If expansion is bad because school size shouldn't matter, why should school size matter when it comes to the number of votes a school gets at the IHSA?

Most people who argue against expansion seem to take some sort of contradictory stand in their discussion. A lot of the expansion haters seem to be multiplier supporters. I still can't figure out why "watering down" the class A tournament with a multiplier is OK but watering it down with expansion is not.

O'Brien responds: Bill, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. I'm saying school size doesn't matter in basketball. However, when it comes to a statewide decision, someone who lives in Riverton's vote shouldn't be worth 100 times what a resident of Gurnee's vote is worth. That's essentially what happens when each school gets one vote. One principal is speaking for the families of 300 students, the other principal is speaking for the families of 3,000 students.

It's all part of the IHSA attempt to boost sagging self-esteem amongst our student athletes by insuring everyone who participates gets either a ribbon, medal, or trophy.

That way, no feelings are crushed and everyone rides home happy in mom's SUV.

Who cares? Because there are far more small schools in Illinois (nearly twice in the present Class A than AA),the extra trophies will go to smaller schools just like they have in football.I only care about 6A-8A football now,rather than 4A-6A a few years back.The new 4A in basketball will still have the best players and will only concentrate the best teams in the top class.This years 8A playoffs was a great example.
The bonus is that HS kids won't have to play the Three most inportant games of their careers in sometimes 24 hours as in the old format.

Indiana scrapped the "Tournament of Champions" after two years due to lack of fan interest. Neither players, coaches or even fans wanted to play another tournament after winning their class title. Even the media was un-interested.

That said, Indiana, which had the last great one class tourney now has 4 classes and fan interest is WAY down as well as media interest. This is a tourney that used to fill the RCA Dome in Indy with 25,000 to 30,000 fans to watch a High School game and watch players like Glen Robinson, Damon Bailey and others to name a few showcase their talent.

Indiana HS basketball has never been the same and after this year neither will Illinois HS basketball.

Last year, Johnsburg, 890 students, lost to Warren, over 4,000 students, in the sectional final. some sort of equality was needed. I agree with Dan. Play the 4 state winners in a "champions championship" and it would be the ultimate state tournament finale.

Two class hoops.
Four class football with same amount of teams, and you bring back the Wed. playoff game.

There just isn't much difference in the teams.

What matters are the state championship rounds. The 2a and 3a champs.

What bothers me more in the discussion is the AWFUL, and I mean AWFUL job done by the IHSA in how they handle the regionals now.

It reminds of that scene in 'Baseketball' where Dan Patrick is explaining how each team advances.

I just don't get why we can't go back to what was right?
Keep the multiplier for FOOTBALL ONLY.
Go back to the old regionals. Play the prelims even if you have too many 16/17 and 15/18 games.
Bring back the regionals to higher seeds!

It's just been a total screw job by the IHSA over the last six years.

Worst. Administration. Ever.

O'Brien: Every basketball team competes with 5 players. I disagree with your premise that the team with more fans should have greater influence in setting the rules. The Green Bay Packers wouldn't like your idea either.

One more thing - the IHSA does not represent
students, it represents schools. Schools do not have to belong, membership is voluntary (although life would be very difficult if a school did not join).

O'Brien responds: That's a very good point Bill (that the IHSA represents schools and not students), and it might be the root of the problem.

"How can it possibly be fair that schools with 4000 compete against public schools with 800 or 900...that's ridiculous."

Basketball is played with 5 players at a time. It isn't 4000 v. 800.

"Basketball is played with 5 players at a time. It isn't 4000 vs. 800!"

The schools with 4000 have essentially 5 times the amount of kids to choose from that are trying out. There's a good chance that if 200 boys are trying out for the team compared to 40 that there are going to be many many more talented players...that only makes sense. So what's your argument?? You need only 5 good players yes...but don't you think schools with 4000 are going to have a better chance of having 5 solid players than a school of 800...the numbers only make sense!

Hey Roger - are the odds of five 'good' players greater when choosing from a pool of 4000 vs 800? Yes. They are.

I was lucky enough to play for a state basketball champion a few years back using the 2 class system. Most of the teams we beat had much larger enrollments and MUCH, MUCH better facilities. A 4 class system would have made that accomplishment that much easier, and that much less special. Perhaps every senior in the state could fill out a form spelling out his/her favorite sport, then the IHSA could give them a state championship medal for that sport. That way mommy, daddy, and kid will all feel really good about themselves, and nobody will have to be "left out" after their team loses in the state tournament. The crybaby's have already screwed up football with the 8 classes and the mulitplyer, leave basketball alone!!!!!!

Maybe the IHSA will take the IHSA soccer approach, give everyone a trophy, a juice box, orange slices and call every team a champion ?

This is going screw the large downstate schools like Moline,East Stl.,Pekin they are going to have to travel all over the place to play games.Also it will hurt the ticket revenue for I will be less likely to go 3 hrs. away for a regional games during the week.This will stink now you win 3 gms. and you are sweet 16

The IHSA has to admit what is their goal. Is it to have a true champion, or happy principals? If you want four classes, fine. But have it based on performance, not enrollment. If you've never won a regional in basketball, you should be in 1A. If you're in the Sweet 16 every year, maybe you should be in 4A even if you only have 250 students. Teams that go 24-6 year after year in 1A should be forced to start in 2A. Teams that go 8-22 in 4A year after year should be shoved down to 3A or maybe even 2A.

First, don't tell me that schools with smaller enrollments can't compete with larger schools. If that was true then why haven't the Stevensons, Warrens, and New Triers of the world dominated all the state titles in basketball? Obviously there is an advantage to having more students, but that advantage is fading with specialization among high school athletes. Even bigger schools are having fewer kids tryout as they focus on single sports.
Second, I want the title of State Champion to mean something. I can't even keep track of who wins in football because there are 8 champs each year, but everyone knows that Simeon was the champ in AA last year because it is far more significant.
Finally, let's talk about the real reason for the switch, MONEY. The 4 class system will guarantee that all 8 teams and a lot of there fans will stick around for both Friday and Saturday, and so will there wallets. Under the 2 class system half the teams left after the games on Friday and Peoria lost out on revenue. Just like the pros and college, this decision comes down to the opportunity to make more money. I am dreading the change, but money talks.

You folks who like it need to talk to us folks who have followed Indiana High School basketball most of our lives. ITS RUINED INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL. Under the old system, you had to pay $100 to scalp a ticket for the finals. Now nobody goes.

Dan: Only 4 teams will go to state for each class. Your argument makes no sense.
John: The Muncie newspaper completely discredited the idea that expansion led to declining attendance in Indiana. Attendance in Illinois sports has increased after previous expansions.
The argument of expansion haters is this:"Expansion makes the games less meaningful". But to whom? Certainly to those people, but the games are not any less meaningful to the players and fans who win the titles. 20 years from now you'll have no idea who won the AA tourny in 2007. But the players will remember. Sorry folks, high school sports are for the athletes, not for you.

Mervin: 4 class A teams and 4 class AA teams will be at the tournament the first weekend (that's 8 if you're counting). Then 4 class AAA and 4 class AAAA teams the second weekend. The semi's on Friday and the Championship and 3rd place game on Saturday. This means all 8 teams will stay the whole weekend for both weekends. What part of this doesn't make sense?

The whole argument against expansion is moot. Schools that oppose expansion can petition the IHSA to particpate in 4A and everyone will be happy.

PS: Don't hold your breath. I predict that fewer than 10 of 750 schools will petition to move up. There is tons of peer pressure amongst coaches to say they hate expansion. In reality almost every coach would rather win a 3A title than lose a 4A title.

O'Brien responds: Of course any coach would rather win than lose. The argument isn't moot because schools can move into 4A. If anything, the argument is growing every day. Yesterday, the Peoria Journal-Star's blog posted some interesting comments from downstate coaches regarding the expansion. It's pretty clear that if a vote was taken now, expansion would be shot down.

"It's pretty clear that if a vote was taken now, expansion would be shot down."

Are you kidding me? Expansion won by a landslide in the advisory referendum. The same margin held during the second vote at the mandatory IHSA town hall meetings.

Why exactly do the anecdotal meanderings of the extremely biased Nick Vlahos prove that expansion would now be defeated in a third vote of schools?

O'Brien responds: I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that there has never been a full referendum with every school in the state voting.

No way, this is the "extremely biased" Nick Vlahos. I was alerted that my name was on Mike's fine blog, so of course I had to check it out. :)

I assure you, there was nothing biased about any of it. I simply asked every coach with Illinois ties this question: "What do you think about the four-class system?" Whatever they said, I was going to write. To a man, they all said the same thing. And always in the same way -- angry.

Frankly, their responses are no different from what I've head from 99 percent of the coaches, athletics directors and principals I've asked since January about this thing.

And no, there never has been a binding, statewide referendum on this issue. In a change of this magnitude, surveys and straw polls don't cut it.