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I'm a child of the 1950s and I insist the best high school basketball I've seen over the last 50 years was played a long time ago--when Collinsville dominated the 1960s, when Thornridge produced the best team of all time in 1972, when Quincy and East St. Louis Lincoln dominated the 1980s, when Peoria Manual and King dominated the 1990s.
With the exception of Simeon's 2007 team, you don't see great teams today. The caliber of competition in the state tournament, two classes or four classes, isn't what it used to be. And have you seen anyone in the last decade, excluding Shaun Livingston and Derrick Rose, who reminded you of the great stars of yesteryear?
Today's legion of basketball fans, whose sense of historical perspective began in the 1990s, insists old-timers have lost touch with reality, that the great players and great teams of the 1960s and 1970s couldn't play today's style, that today's kids are too athletic, that the game has changed.
Garbage. Anyone who thinks Sweet Charlie Brown or Paxton Lumpkin or George Wilson (1950s) or Tom Hawkins and Cazzie Russell (1960s) or Thornidge's 1972 team with Quinn Buckner and Boyd Batts or Quincy's 1981 team with Bruce Douglas and Michael Payne couldn't compete with today's kids needs a big dose of reality. Check the film. Talk to people who saw them, people who played against them.
Meanwhile, for those fantasy folks who think Bobby Bonds did more for baseball than Babe Ruth, let's conduct a survey of the state's leading programs since 1960. Which program was most dominant? Which produced the most outstanding players?
* Collinsville. Coach Vergil Fletcher won two state titles in the 1960s and a second in 1957. His starting lineup is Terry Bethel, Bogie Redmon, Rodger Bohnentstiehl, Tom Parker and Richard Keene.
* King. Coach Landon Cox won 500 games in a shorter period of time than any coach in state history. He won three state titles. His starters are Marcus Liberty, Levertis Robinson, Jamie Brandon, Rashard Griffith and Leon Smith.
* Quincy. Coach Sherrill Hanks built a dynasty that Jerry Leggett helped to preserve. Their starters are Bruce and Keith Douglas, Michael Payne, Jim Wisman and Larry Moore.
* East St. Louis Lincoln. Coach Bennie Lewis won four state titles in the 1980s with Todd Porter, LaPhonso Ellis, Cuonzo Martin, Vincent Jackson and James Harris.
* Proviso East. Coach Bill Hitt won two of the school's four state titles in the 1990s. The Pirates' top five players were Jim Brewer, Sherrell Ford, Michael Finley, Shannon Brown and Doc Rivers.
* Peoria Manual. Coaches Dick Van Scyoc and Wayne McClain won an unprecedented four state titles in a row in the 1990s. Their all-time best were Howard Nathan, David Booth, Sergio McClain, Marcus Griffin and Frank Williams.
* Peoria Central. Coach Chuck Buescher won back-to-back state titles in the 2000s. But the school has a long and distinguished tradition. How about a starting lineup of Hiles Stout, Tony Wysinger, Chris Reynolds, A.J. Guyton and Shawn Livingston?
* Simeon. Coach Bob Hambric built the program into a dynasty in the 1980s and his disciple, Robert Smith, carried on in this decade. It would be tough to beat Derrick Rose, Deon Thomas, Nick Anderson, Ben Wilson and Tim Flowers.
Let the debate begin.
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The talent is so spread out now, with so many kids transfering you're not going to see great teams like we had in the past. The city alone has so many good teams right now that I wouldn't be surprised to see half of the elite 8 one year from the city, and in more than one class. Landon Cox's feat will never be duplicated because the talent is everywhere now, not just kids going to King to play ball. That's not to take away from what he did, you still got to win. I do agree that those past teams could definitly play with todays teams. They were sounder back then, and I think they'd pick todays teams apart. Peoria Manuel teams in the 90's get my vote, but I'm not a child of the 50's so it might not be a fair vote.
I agree with you Mr. Bell. It seems as if the great teams of yesteryear are dismissed as being too slow or too out of touch with the modern game to compete. What a bunch of nonsense. For me it's a toss up between the all time King team and Simeon, with a slight edge toward King.
YO, ALL WAUKEGAN alumni fans, people of the community write Kurt Gibson hes the person that makes the ruling IHSA..let him know what mistake hes making. His email address is below:
kgibson@ihsa.org
Taylor I respect your body of work, but sometimes i think you paint us youngsters (I'll include myself even though I was born in 1970) with too broad a brush. The first state title game I saw live was Ben Wilson's state title with Simeon. A year later I fell in love with the game as a 14 year old watching Lowell Hamilton's St. Mel team run roughshod over the rest of the state in Class A and have followed them ever since, through thick and thin (mostly thin). At any rate, I have nothing but respect for the older teams, the Collinsvilles, the Quincys, the Thornridges, the old Proviso East teams. I love the history of the game, and believe I have a good sense of it. And I don't believe I'm the only younger cat with this sense. I don't deny the other side of it is out there - the younger set that has no sense of how dominating Thornridge 1972 does, but there are some of us under 40 who give a nod of due respect to the history that came before us, the shoulders on which the players of today's game stands.
THE STATEMENT ABOUT THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER COACH
WHO WILL DUPLICATE SONNY COX, IS A MISNOMER, IT ISN'T
ABOUT THE TRANSFERS OR THE PARITY OF THE TEAMS, SONNY
COX WAS A MISSIONARY, HE TOOK PLAYERS THAT ONLY HE AND
HE ALONE COULD DEAL WITH ANYWAY, HE WOULD FIND YOUNGSTERS
IN GROUP HOMES AND ON THE STREET, AND MAKE MEN OUT OF
THEM, ALOT OF COACHES AREN'T GOING TO GO THE EXTRA MILE,
LIKE LANDON "SONNY" COX DID, HE WAS A GIANT AMONG COACHES,
HE WAS NOT WELL LIKED BY SOME, BECAUSE HE WAS A WINNER,
REMEMBER WHEN MARSHALL COACHED BY MR. LUTHER BEDFORD, A
GREAT MAN, DEFEATED KING WITH ARTHUR AGEE (HOOP DREAMS)
KING HAD TWO BIG MEN AND A GREAT TEAM BUT THEY WENT DOWN!
TODAY COACHES AREN'T GOING TO STAY AT ONE SCHOOL AND PUT
IN THE TIME OR EFFORT IN BULK, SURE THERE ARE SOME GREAT
COACHES COACHING, BUT SOME DON'T HAVE A CLUE, THEY JUST
COACH TO COACH, SONNY COX KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND HE
WAS SUCCESSFUL, JUST ASK HIS FORMER PLAYERS!
I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, BUT I HAVE BEEN AROUND THE
BLOCK A FEW TIMES AND I KNOW WHAT IS LIKE TO COACH IN
THE CPS, IT IS NO JOKE, SUBURBAN COACHES HAVE IT MADE,
THEY DON'T HAVE TO SET UP A GYM, WORRY ABOUT THE REFS
SHOWING UP, PAYING THE REFS, CROWD CONTROL, THE GATE,
THEY HAVE IT MADE IN THE SHADE!
YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE SONNY COX, BUT TO ME HE IS A HERO!
DOROTHY GATERS IS A HEROINE, SHE MAY BE THE BEST LADIES
COACH IN THE HISTORY OF HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL!
I HOPE AND PRAY A FUTURE COACH COMES AROUND AND ACHIEVES
HALF OF WHAT SONNY COX DID, G.K. SMITH, LUTHER BEDFORD,
LEE UMBLES,ART PENNY, WILLIE BYRD, BOB HANSEN,CARL BONNER
BOBBY BONNER, COACH WILLIAMS FROM KING, THE COACH WHO
COACHED RICKY GREEN AT HIRSCH, I MET ALL OF THESE GREAT
COACHES, COACH HAWKINS WHO RECENTLY PASSED AWAY, THE WENT
BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY, THEY MADE MEN OUT OF BOYS!
MAY GOD BLESS THEM ALL!
Mr. Bell
As my guru for Illinois high school hoops, I could never make the statement that "you are wrong." So in this case, I'll use the word "over-sight."
A Sonny Cox King five that does not include Efrem Winters on it is wone that I don't think Mr. Cox would coach.
"Big Win" as I remember us 80's kids calling him was an all-stater, McDonald's All-American MVP, and a star on Illinois' teams in the mid 80's along with Quincy's Bruce Douglas. Bruce Douglas was a "big" point guard for his time, which helped him see over defenders and throw perfect oley-oops to his Qunicy High teammate Mike Payne,and then later to Efrem Winters at Illinois.
That Illonios team got "hosed" having to play at Kentucky for the regional championship. They may have gotten to a Final 4 had the regional not been played on Kentucky's home floor. My goodness!
That's a good listing of programs, but I think you could make a strong case for Westinghouse and St. Joes to make the cut.
King: Hermon, Shareef, Selvie to add...
I have great respect for the Thornridge team. Mr. Bell, is it fair to say that they changed the way the game was played in Illinois HS basketball?
Westinghouse? Whoa.
Good Day everyone and God bless. I agree with the of author of the initial article and the other blogger's. You all make very vivid and great points. So, I would only like to positively add content to this conversation.
I am an a huge high school sports fan. Not just Illinois but also nationally and have high school hoops newsletters, magazines etc.. since the 80's. I am also under 35. But I pride myself as being a historian of the game.
Now, anyone who knows sports on the college or high school level knows there are somethings are consistant, such as great football on a high school is played in the southeast, Texas, also in Cali and in the midwest in Ohio, Penn and yes Illinois, during the 70's, 80's and 90's. Funny During those 3 decades the Big 10 was a football force arguably one of the top 2 conferences every year.
This leads to my point a lot of those talented football players also doubled as basketball players. So, not only did you have talented hoopers but other athletes playing ball as well. Now days high school athletes nationally are more sport specialized. You see this even further in Illinois arguably the best basketball state in the country. So, to the question about which era had better athletes..uh I would give the edge to the previous era...let's not forget that great NFL talents such as Antione Randal El & Donovan Mcnabb were once Hoopers.
A lot of the teams that were mentioned by the author were great dominate programs as well as Westinghouse and
St. Joes. But also like to include in that list teams that I call "Program winners". Meaning that regardless of the decade over the last 40-50 years they are consistant winners. And at different points during each decade are one of the top teams in the state or challenge to be one of them.
Teams Such as Rockford Boylan, Thorton and Evanston. City-Burb teams (I call them City-Burbs because there communities socioeconomic, demographic and crime issues mirrors that of a city more than those of a traditional suburb). Thorton has had alot of great players and good teams. Evanston, has been one the most consistant programs producing supersectional or a top caliber team for at a couple years or so in every decade.
Evanston is even doing it this decade, playing in the state tournament multiple times reaching the final 4 twice. Accomplishing this while a lot of its African American population has been moving out of the city over the last 20 years. Due to the gang and drug issues that exist on the cities Southend (Which Borders the city of Chicago) and the Westend, the area around the High School in particular.
Combine that with the fact that in today's current climate of constant transferring, the school has lost out on having some of its native Evanstonians that are also among the states elite players play for them. Uh um..you put Jeremy Richmond, Chris Colvin and Football talent Chance Carter on this years squad and you have an instance state finals favorite.
In keeping with author's team and player listing example, in closing let me offer a view of Evanston's
roster: Coach Burmeister..(other coaches helped maintain the programs status) Bob Lackey, Everette Stephens, Juvon Mcgarry, Tyrone Bell, Gordon Watt.
**or Sid Pointer, Mason Rocca, Stacey Moraine, Crawford Ricmond etc..**
I enjoyed seeing comments from everyone from different eras and locations. Phil Smith you are right in your comments about some of the great CPS coaches, but don't forget yourself(Crane Ladies). There is one school from the fifties that produced champions and great ball players. Small St. Elizabeth(now closed)they beat everone and was not allowed to play for city or state championships. Remember Coach White, Art Hicks, Woodrow Hill, Elgin Dorsey, Prentiss Thompson to name a few. The players from this school could play with anyone and beat a lot of the top teams of the day.
Mr. Bell,
I grew up on your and Mark Potash's articles on Chicago High School basketball in the '80s, the Sun-Times was ahead of its time highlighting prep ball before it became the norm. I agree with everything I've read in this article except for the exclusion of Efrem Winters from King's five starters. I went to Dunbar and watched Efrem effortlessly dominate games with his scoring, rebounding and shot-blocking. I've watched Rashard Griffith and Leon Smith and its not even close. 'Sir' Efrem was a man among boys. Griffith and Smith had size but not Efrem's skill-set. Efrem was also dominant on the national stage as the MVP of the 1982 McDonald's All-American Game. The same couldn't be said of Griffith or Smith, who were more products of hype than accomplishment with Griffith coming into high school from eighth-grade at 6-10 and Smith becoming a camp sensation the summer before his senior year.
Donnie Boyce was the best player of the Finley/Ford/Davis era with Bill Hitt at Proviso East. He was hurt one year and the other honchos became the "stars" so when he came back the next year, he focused on defense. When he turned up the heat the game was over. I watched many games live esp. downstate and he was 100%. Nobody else did their jobs at 100% - none that I've seen anyway in 53 years of H.S. BB.
When I read your award winning article on Efrem Winter I became an instant IHSB fan. I couldn't miss a South Side game. Efrem Winters has been left out several lists, including his own Illini banner. Cox was wrong not to pick him. No King All Time team is the best without him. I've never seen a more poised, elegant rebounder and dunker. He made it look so easy. He was deceptively fast. I remember those days with fondness, the likes of Joe Stiffend, Tracy Dildy, Michael Payne and the Douglasses. The Jaguars to me is the best HS basketball team of all time and Efrem was the man. If you see him let him know. I'm here in early retirement in my Caribbean island, Dominican Republic thinking about my great days in Chicago. Your column was my bread and butter, the bible of young sports. You and Efrem crossed paths in your fine story of his rise and together moved to become the greatest in your respective fields. I honor you.
Carlos Paulino
Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic