Or something like that.
What a day in Chicago sports, huh? For those of us that like what happens off the field as much as what happens on it (guilty), yesterday was pretty crazy. When the dust settled, Ben Gordon was a Piston, Marian Hossa was a Blackhawk, Nikolai Khabibulin was an Oiler, and Marty Havlat was a Wild(?). Let's take a look at what all this means for the Bulls and the Blackhawks, after the jump....
Bulls
Is there another Chicago athlete in recent memory that elicited more passionate opinions both for and against him than Ben Gordon? To prove my point, look no further than...the Internet! (Why go anywhere else?) Hit up the Bulls blogs today and you'll see lots of anger and sadness.
For example, Andrew from DaBullz wrote:
Well, looks like the Bulls are going back to the lottery next season. The Bulls lost their best player and will suck next year.
Tell us how you really feel, man! But, last I checked, the Bulls compete in the sport of basketball, not competitive bicep curls. And Derrick Rose exists.
Then I logged onto Twitter and saw this message:
Now the Bulls will have to find a new undersized guard that will give up 35 points a game.
You see what I mean? It's kind of funny because, as Bulls fans, we all watch the same games and root for the guys on our team, yet Gordon is the one player that it seems no one can agree on.
Also worth noting: you can make the argument that both Gordon and the Bulls were losers in the negotiations. The Bulls lose because one of their best players is going to their biggest rival in the prime of his career for zero compensation. In Interweb speak, we like to refer to that as FAIL. Gordon doesn't get off clean either, though. The contract he took from Detroit is pretty similar to the one he rejected two years ago from the Bulls. Now he's 26, back then he was 24. Had he taken the Bulls' first offer way back when, he'd still be young enough to cash in on another phat contract. By the time his deal with the Pistons expires, he'll be 31 and out of his prime. Also, Gordon is leaving Chicago (which is a great city) for Detroit (which is a miserable city).
In basketball terms, Gordon's departure means John Salmons and Luol Deng need to step up. Last we saw them, Salmons was awesome, and Deng was bad and hurt. Is that what we can expect again?
Salmons will be Gordon's replacement at shooting guard, and the Bulls better hope that last year wasn't an aberration. Make no mistake, Salmons had a career year last season. He set careers highs across the board at age 29, a point when most players begin to decline, not take off. His biggest jump was in three-point percentage. Without Gordon, the Bulls are going to need more shooters. Last year, Salmons was good enough to fill that roll, making 49 treys in 26 games as a Bull. He was efficient from long range too, connecting at a Gordon-like 41 percent. Again, was it a fluke, or is John Salmons for real? The Bulls better hope it's the latter.
The spotlight will shine even brighter on Deng, Gordon's classmate in the '04 draft. He got the money that Gordon didn't, now the Bulls need him to earn his contract. Deng has been pathetic the last two seasons, and the fans and media have been quick to make excuses for him. Two years ago it was all that damn Kobe trade talk that got in his head. Poor guy! Last year, it was a stress fracture in his leg that cost him the final 22 games plus the playoffs. That's when people started to question his toughness. If the Bulls are going to be good next year, Deng needs to put those questions aside. Simply put, he has to be their second best player. I think there is a good chance that happens. Deng just turned 24, and, you know, most basketball players don't peak at 22. The future is still bright for Deng, or at least the Bulls better hope it is.
Finally, one last note: pretty much everyone the Bulls have paid recently has been a huge disappointment. Hinrich, Deng, Noce, Ben Wallace, and Tyson Chandler all signed for big money and then seemed to take a step backwards. Now that the Bulls let Gordon walk, will it happen again or will he take off? Discuss.
Hawks
I'm a very casual hockey fan, but signing the 27-year old Marty Havlat for 6 years, $30 million certainly seems like a better deal than getting 30-year old Hossa for 12 years, $62 million. Again, I don't know too much about hockey, so I'll ask you puckheads out there to convince me that I should trust Dale Tallon. But on the surface - at least to me - it just doesn't seem like a slam dunk for the 'Hawks.
The bigger issue now is whether the 'Hawks still have enough money under the cap to retain young stars Patrick Kane, Jonathon Toews, and Duncan Keith, all of whom are set for big raises after this upcoming season. I'd hate to see any of those guys go.
Judging by his Twitter account, Havlat doesn't seem too happy about the way this all went down. I can't wait to hear what the 'real story' is.
Ricky O'Donnell is the founder of the Chicago sports blog Tremendous Upside Potential and one of the editors of the Sun-Times' fantasy blog.
It wasn't so much BG leaving the Bulls that upset me the most, but it's more the Bulls just cannot seem to do anything creative out there in the open market in terms of trades or free agency. Like you already mentioned, Ricky, the Bulls have not fared well signing players to a phat contract, but who's fault is that then? It's the personnel chief, the GM, the decisionmaker, whoever that is, whether it's Gar or Paxson. I've been saying this for a long time, but with the Bulls, it is absolutely crucial that they nail the draft if they want the team to be something special. They got lucky with Rose and the ping pong balls last year and Noah is actually turning out to be a good value pick at where we drafted him, but other than that, we haven't drafted an all-star caliber player since really, Elton Brand, and we got rid of him too early. This is a team that thinks cheap with "young potential" first and then sign or acquire good, but not great seasoned veterans (ahem, Salmons and Miller), but they rarely ever go for the home run on a proven superstar. We'll see what happens in the 2010 FA sweepstakes, but you know what, I wouldn't be surprised if they mess that up somehow. Gar and co. never had any plan after all this offseason other than the draft and announcing the hiring of Randy Brown. Geez, do they really know how to disappoint fans and I swear, this James Johnson better be good because I would have preferred drafting a Center project like BJ Mullens and DeJuan Blair instead of creating another log jam at the forward position with more undersized mid-range shooters. We'll see on James Johnson, but if track record on non-number one picks are any indication for the Bulls, this will be another questionable draft selection.
As for Ben Gordon, I don't see him taking off at Detroit. He'll get his points stats because he's too natural a scorer, but he won't have the burden of having to carry a team's scoring load on his own so his numbers may actually fall in Detroit. Plus, signing BG and Villanueva doesn't exactly scare other teams on the defensive end so it'll be interesting to see who the next head coach of that team will be. Salmons will be just fine for the Bulls and Hinrich will back him up at the 2 guard, but the Bulls definitely need to sign another guard, preferably another sharpshooter with size like a Kapono or Korver. Of course I'd prefer someone better than those 2, but I'm just being realistic that the Bulls won't go all out on a free agent this Summer anyway.
Great work Ricky. Keep them coming. If you do a Sox blog, I won't know what to do with myself.
I will NEVER doubt Edgar again. And Edgar my friend, that is a Noah-like forecast. You are right about Bulls management cheap as a baby bird! They are going to trot out Rose like a showpony and work him to DEATH. And he is going to get hurt. We have NO shooters and NO bench. KIRK is going to START. Salmons is coming off the bench. Or they will do something "creative" like make Kirk the starting point guard and move Rose to the shooting guard like I have heard a lot of Kirk fans mention. I thought they were crazy too, but I am in Hinrich Hell with no Norm and no Kerr.
Villanueva is one of the dumbest most ego-driven guys to ever pick up a basketball. I loved that he was in Milwaukee with Oscar the Grouch. Dumars is definitely slippin, first Billups, now Charlie. But Gordon is a bonefide stud who will come off the bench and provide the spark and clutch shooting they need. Detroit is not going anywhere for a long time, but they have the Bulls faded like a haircut. Gordon's scoring ability is unquestioned even from his critics and now he will be on a team with some more balance and talent. Now Dumars is not affraid to wheel and deal and he is not affraid of veteran players. I can't afford the NBA pass and will have to watch the Bulls if I want to watch basketball at all. Thank goodness for TNT.
And now that just put the Bears in a bigger spotlight. Maybe I will be able to make the hockey transition, but I doubt it because no sport can trully be appreciated until you can perform it yourself. I can't skate, ice skate or roller skate...maybe I can get the Bulls to teach me how to cheap skate!!! My sadness has turned to anger now.
Short-term loss...no doubt. Gordon's best fit would have been with a team closer to a championship where he can come off the bench. I'm assuming he'll come off the bench for Hamilton but Detroit is no better than the 6th best team in the conference once Sheed leaves.
Long term good news is it frees up $25M in 2010. If Salmons can play the 2, they should be a .500 team. If Tyrus learns how to play consistently, better than that...if they had a real coach, they would be the 5th best team in the conference - and players would want to come here.
IF, IF, IF...
There is no doubt that sooner or later BG had to go. My only complaint is he got away for nothing. Sure he made some unbelievable buzzer beaters but he blew just as many if not more trying to do more than he was capable of doing and as mentioned so many times before if you score 28 but the guy your defending scores 32 you lose, sorry pal. Now as far as deng is concerned I'd love to see him gone somewhere before the trade deadline. I don't care if they trade him for 6 future 1st round picks, a ball boy and a tube of Pat Riley hair grease, just get rid of him. My guess on bringing Randy Brown to the coaching staff is mainly to help teach Rose defense. Any time I hear his name I see replays in my mind of him either stealing an in-bounds pass or causing one to be stolen at crucial moments down the stretch.
Short term for the Hawks looks pretty good. However, long term might be an issue. I like the team and was happy to see them contend last year. Kane and Toews are the best rising talents in the NHL. However, with the addition of Hossa I'd say the curse of No-ssa will cloud over the playoffs for Chicago. The guy is 30 and if he stays out his contract will be 42 when he retires with the hawks. Trade him later? Would any team be interested in a guy that is 38 and has 4 years left of a premium contract? Not many - that is why we are getting so many players signing 10 year plus deals. These longggg term deals in the NHL are bad for all the teams and fans. You get a stagnant team here, a contender there, and a Ray Bourque left in the dust trying to get his name on the cup. BTW Bettman is a moron.
NBA - welcome to the house of pain called the central division. It will be fun tailing Cleveland all season. At least the Bulls will have a winning season.
Just heard that Artest may sign with Cleveland!!
WE ARE F@$#'ED
They gave Deng his $73 million contract after the first of the two bad seasons you mentioned above.
We have now lost Chandler and Gordon with virtually no compensation. When they signed Deng to his oversized contract and drafted Rose, and knew they couldn't afford Gordon after this year, they should have traded Gordon. Actually, they should have signed Gordon and not Deng. Deng is a decent player who can hit an eighteen footer in a set offense. He has not shown much ability to get open by himself. His skills are less unique than Gordon's.
Being one of the few guys who could actually shoot on the Bulls, Gordon distorted the other teams defense. I got really tired of seeing Ben and Rose doubled a good part of the time and the rest of the team -- until Salmons and Miller -- being unable to take advantage.
That being said, Gordon's best position was sixth man. He had weaknesses as a starter and if he could not be satisfied with that it might have caused trouble.
More generally, Jerry Krause tanked this team after Jordan left for high draft choices. We had terrible teams and high draft choices for years and in spite of that the only reason this team is viable at all is that they got lucky on the draw last year with Rose. After years of high draft choices -- where are the great players? We are like the Los Angeles Clippers,who have no idea what they are doing, except we got lucky with Rose. Without Rose this would be a thirty win team.
Look, I know I'm a very casual Bulls fan, but if there are other very casual fans out there, then perhaps I can speak for them. Other than watching Derrick Rose further his development this next season and possibly see if this James Johnson guy is somebody special in the making, I'm not going out of my way to watch the Bulls this next season. Moreover, if they mess up what was supposed to be THE opportunity to get someone special like Chris Bosch after next season, then you can all but say goodbye to my allegiance. I'm extremely serious about that. True, it may be exacerbated by living 2000 miles away, but that will happen. By next summer, it will have been well over a decade and counting without a light at the end of the tunnel. There's just no reason for a very casual fan like myself to follow a team like that.
I've said it before, if that happens, Jerry Reinsdorf TRULY must sell the team and the new owner has to do a clean sweep of the management. JR can blame himself also for giving more allegiance to Jerry Krause, who started this mess in the first place, than to Michael Jordan, THE reason JR has six rings.
As I believe was Culzie's asseretion: Artest is indeed a beast!
If he just signed with Cleveland we are screwed, because that man makes Big Ben look like Loul Deng when it comes to putting it ALL on the floor each and every night.
He's a talented defender, a shot blocker, and a great rebounder, even if he's only a middle of the pack scorer. The man just flat out intimidates, and that's something that none of our current Bulls are able to do.
IMHO trading Brand and Artest for what amounted to zilch have been two of the biggest mistakes the Bulls have ever made.
They rate right up there with the Brock for Broglio boondoggle.
I agree with Mark about those infamous trades. Mercy! Then, I think at the next level might be the Tyrus Thomas for LaMarcus Aldridge fiasco although I guess we need to give TT one more season to see about that. Nevertheless, what's going on? Methinks the Madhatter brought his chemicals into the Bulls central offices.
I'm not mad Ben wasn't resigned...10 mill is too much for just a scorer. I'm mad we didn't sign him last year and then we could have traded him. We get nothing for our leading scorer. Bulls management are lost, I don't get the plan. Hope for a FA or two in 2010, that didn't work out to well last time.
I can see this team anywhere from 7th to 10 seed. I predict a 40-42 win season. We didn't improve at all. I think Johnson will be a decent pick and will contribute as a super-sized 3 or small ball 4. He has skills and will contribute more than a Mullens project. There were no good centers in this draft so no loss there..
It's been a very eventful NBA off season.
Lots of stories to watch for next year:
* Hinrich vrs Gordon battles
* Detroit turns into an uptempo team
* Deng will be back
* Further maturation of Rose
* Will Artest go crazy and disrupt the Lakers ( I doubt it though since Phil was able to control the craziest player of them all, Rodman)
* Shaq in Cleveland
* Vince in Orlando
* Sheed in Boston(probably)
* Hedo in Portland(probably)
* Ariza in Houston
* Jefferson in SA
* Is Rubio the real deal? Is Rubio even staying the US?
* Is Griffin the next Karl Malone?
* Is Stephon Curry a point guard in the NBA or simply a better Jennaro Pargo?
Edgar I think I FINALLY get it. The Bulls were never going to resign Ben Gordon. That was business. They never told anyone because it would have hurt the bottom line (season ticket holders). And - although they are stacking up money - they already KNOW that they will not sign anyone with it. But expiring contracts and making "ROOM" is a good enough maneuver to get the "SUCKERS" (paying fans) on board. I am finally starting to see the light.
Bulls are going to possibly scrap into the last spot of the playoffs and fans will get all giddy. And those expiring contracts and the cap-room will be enough to keep fans extremely hopeful for a possible signing of Labron or somebody. I see it now..... absolutely hilarious. Just having Labron money makes folks think he will actually take it. Its shrewd, and I can really see how folks can buy into it. Its NEVER going to happen. And just when people begin to figure things out and the team begins to completely tank - they will go and bring in some C talent from the league like Drew Gooden and Malik Allen to hobble into the playoffs. And that first round series was just the thing Bulls Management needed. Thats the carrot that fans will see dangling in their faces as they purchase playoff tickets. But this time, there will be no Ben Gordon - and definitely no 7 games.
Meanwhile the REAL teams are making moves like a game of speed chess for the REAL "B" and "A" talent. Any Veteran out there that can help a team is being sought by the REAL contenders. And our fans are happy for the most part. There is a small faction of Gordon fans and some press who protested Ben's departure, but overall, people are just happy to see Kirk Hinrich on the team. Rose is nothing but a show pony. He's not running anything. He is not even smart enough to run anything. He is nothing more than a short Tyrus Thomas. And Vinny is only playing the kid because he was a number one pick and a fan draw. NOW I realize that. The REAL Chicago Bulls team consists of Kirk Hinrich and Loul Deng (captains and PAID invested in franchise players). Everyone else is a complimentary player for THEM. Each draft pick is just biding time until free agency. BULLS WILL NEVER PAY DERRICK ROSE a dime beyond that rookie contract. He is only valuable if he can CARRY the scoring so Kirk doesnt have to - because the Bulls have PAID their point-guard of the future. And Rose is going to kill himself driving to the rim only to hear: (KH) "thanks Rose, I will take it from here".
Edgar told me this almost 2 years ago - the Bulls are not worth the price of admission. I used to think Edgar had a personal axe to grind with management, but I was definitely wrong on that one. And I should have known better. But I was blind and now I see. "Fool me once...and you don't get to fool me again".
Ok I was not that upset with the rumors that Artest was going to Cleveland because I saw that as the needed piece to topple the Lakers and Kobe both of whom I can't stand. Now with Artest going to the Lakers I'm going to have to put him on my ten most disliked players list. Kobe does not top that list he stands alone as the most obnoxious meglamaniacal anal orifice in hoops history. Regardless of his talents on the court IMHO Kobe is am indecent human being. Rodman may have been and still be a full bubble off level but he never tried to defuse any heat from himself with the childish statement that he didn't do anything the rest of the players haven't done or pointed the finger at a team mate the way Kobe did Shaq. As much as I want to see the Bulls return to greatness that was theirs in the 90's I'll settle for anyone dethroning the Lakers in the upcoming season.
Gordon said today that the Bulls never even made him an offer.
If they had no intention of signing him then why the whole "Signing Ben Gordon is our number one priority” nonsense?
They would like to believe that we are all fools and have forgotten about all the stupid moves they have made over the last ten years.
“Trust us!”
I don’t even have faith that they can do right with the gift of Rose.
That had the number one pick when they drafted Elton Brand who gave them 20 and 10 every night. He gave 100%, said all the right things and acted like a true professional and they could not wait to dump him for a high school player.
Deng had better be the player that he was hyped up to be or this team is going no where.
Keith have you been on a Big Mac binge again? First of all we all are aware of how many times the likes of Eddy Curry, Ben Wallace, Zach Randolph and several others have fooled you so your last comment was kinda lame. As many of Edgar's posts as I've read, I didn't get any of the drivel you just spewed out of them with the exception that Gordon wouldn't be resigned.
Now consider this for a moment. BG kept saying all last season he wanted to stay in Chicago if possible yet couldn't wait for the clock to tick from 11:59pm june 30th to 12:01am July 1st and have breakfast with Joe Dumars and agree to a contract in Detroit without even seeing if the Bulls might possibly match it or better it. I'm sure they wouldn't have even considered it but for someone that claimed he wanted to stay in Chicago BG sure looked eager to get out of Dodge.
I know how much you'd like to see Kirk gone Keith but I think dumping Deng and his contract would be the better move if it is at all possible and the fact that we haven't heard anything since the Bulls lost to Boston about Deng's condition I don't imagine there is much interest by anyone to aquire him.
Granted Keith I'm not without my own stubborn opinions mind you. I'm still not ready to give up on Tyrus yet and although Noah did impress me against Boston I wouldn't cry or go on a hunger strike in protest if he were traded. Regardless of BG's occasional last second heroics he either missed last second shots or turned the ball over trying to do what he wasn't capable of doing more times than not and he couldn't defend against a legitimate starting 2 guard.
Edgar now correct me if I am wrong but the long and short of what you have been saying is that yes it is all business and GarPaxDorf isn't going to go into luxury tax territory especially with the expiring contracts on the team this coming season and a treasure trove of free agents next off season.
BG's greatest value as a Bull was that of a run-stopper. When he was out there he either brought the Bulls back or kept them close. Other teams were aware of this, & that's why BG faced more traps & double teams than any other Bull during his time here. What Salmon's will do against that pressure remains to be seen. With BG gone, I'm expecting more blowout nights where the Bulls just look awful.
Still, it was time for BG to go. He's arguably one of the best shooters in the NBA, but his presence didn't help the other Bulls improve. Many times it looked like they became spectators when BG did his thing. A good coach can take control to guard against this, but not a rook like VDN. In fact, as the season wore on it appeared as even VDN himself would just defer to BG. I wish BG well & regret that coaches on the Bulls let him & the team down much too often.
In terms of skill, speed, toughness, & durability Hossa has the edge over Havlat. Huet's only edge over Habby is durability, but that edge has widened with Habby's age. I think Talon's done a good job & expect Hossa to gel well with the other young Hawks.
I, personally, wasn't even concerned about the Gordon situation because I knew he was gone. The writing was on the wall, and REINSDORFS (the guy who REALLY has control) track record is like a giant,lime green bush in the middle of a daisy field.
I'm not going to say, in the least, I'm sorry to see him go. I watched the Bulls play decent basketball without him on the court. People put too much emphasis on a single player. This is TEAM ball, and we need to play as a team, defense included, to have any chance in this league. Anyone who thinks we need to catch the Lakers A.S.A.P. is sorely mistaken. NOT going to happen anytime soon. We have a very legitimate chance to run with the East, but that is on the assumption that we pick up a major body. I'll hold reservation until the start of the season line-up, or mid January acquisitions.
Every team in Chi-Town can't be of play-off caliber. It just rarely happens. The Blackhawks, Streaking White Sox, New Look Bears, Wolves and Sky (yes, the Sky) will give us plenty to cheer about come play-off time.
Hossa can't hurt our chances. I'm more inclined to call this a draw as far as Havlat goes, but if you consider Gordon-vs-Hossa, sorry Detroit, we gotcha this time.
Oh, and after The White Sox pass the Tigers, call it a Daily Double! D'oh!
Keith, are you serious? Rose average 16 pts/7 assists as a rookie. He had one of the best rookie season in recent NBA history. Without him, we win 33 games last year. Yeh he made mistakes, but last time I checked rookies make mistakes. He is going to be an All-star in 2 years easily, he's the kind of talent we haven't had since the 90s. When was the last time we had an All-star player, over 10 years...which is pathetic. Once he picks up his D and increases his range to 3 pt range, he will be devastating.
I don't dislike Hinrich, I like his game. He plays hard D, can hit open shots, hustles....however the team overpaid his contract. Not his fault but he makes to much too $ now. He has to be traded, Portland is interested in trading him for Blake(a decent backup PG) and Outlaw(a decent backup SF). We should make that trade to create cap space. We should have traded Salmons while his value was high. I think Tyrus is gonna be gone even if he puts up good numbers this year.
This team is in severe transition, by this time next year the only players that are guaranteed to be here are Rose, Noah, Deng and the two draft picks.
I still have a hard time figuring why we didn't draft a guard with the 26th pick, knowing full well we weren't going to resign Gordon. I don't get the front-office, seems like we're destined for mediocrity and lot of first round playoff exits.
Ben Gordon owes his contract to Salmons and Miller. Without them we don't even make the playoffs, and without them Boston beats us 4 straight.
When we add a top tier free agent or 2 prior to 2010(and we will) no one will even remember that Ben Gordon was here. For now we have to put up with the insane ramblings of all the sycophants on BlogaBull. They are thick headed but give them time, even they will figure it out. They couldn't get rid of Noah fast enough for a year and a half, now he is the Bulls second untouchable after Rose.
Bottom line is Detroit traded their MVP(billups) for a ballhogging midget 2 guard that hasn't attempted to play defense in his life.
They could have saved everyone the anxiety by just trading Billups to the Bulls for Gordon during the season, anyone in Chicago who wouldn't have jumped on that trade in a heartbeat.
Tim:
Phill gets # 11 in 2010.
Read it, and weep.
P.S. Hey Ricky, having a last name of Spaniard decent I find it really cool to see your name up there reading O'Donnellon (O'Doneyon). Welcome to the Irish Latin Lovers' Club!
comparing the Blackhawks to the bulls is laughable...all the other sports teams in Chicago need to take a look at how things are being done by those Hockey guys....and copy it
I mean really...how impressive is that organization
The Hawks are ready to challenge for the Cup...and unless the bulls do something off the hook soon...2009 is just a tanked season...because they aren't competing for anything with the guys they have...we'll call em the Moras
playoffs!?...playoffs!?...don't talk to me about... PLAYOFFS?!
BigWay says:
Ben Gordon owes his contract to Salmons and Miller. Without them we don't even make the playoffs, and without them Boston beats us 4 straight.
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Yeah... so without Gordon the Bulls make the playoffs and win even a single game against Boston?
What Bulls team and what playoff series were you watching?
You can be happy that Gordon is gone, say he was not worth the money and say that he is one dimensional....
But you can't say that the Bulls were not a better team with Ben Gordon in 2008/09 and that he did not play a huge role in the series against the Celtics or their play down the stretch that got them into the post season in the first place.
If you believe that then you know nothing at all about basketball.
I agree with Phil and Juan. But you know what - Gordon needed to go. He was the step-son in Chicago (never good enough). And the truth is (can't believe I missed it), Rose was drafted to replace GORDON not Hinrich. Gordon got out of there like a kid running away from a foster home. And Chicago (save an appreciate few) yelled out a collective "Don't you ever come back"!!! And the departure was good for BOTH. Bulls claim they have a different philosophy. TEAM ball as Navarro put it. Nobody appreciates a TEAM more than I do - but there comes a time when that Superman Music is cued and someone must come out of that booth or face impending doom. And just like the movie Hancock - sooner or later you discover - a hero comes in handy. Joe Dumars watched the Bulls scrap for their playoff lives vs. the Miami Heat (to get in) and the Boston Celtics. Joe saw a special player holding his own in battle and he also saw the consequences of not signing him and he made his move. And time will tell the tale if Joe was right. I think he was.
Hey Tim my man - Ask Edgar how much I was off of his assessment of the Bulls.
I AGREE WITH HITMAN ALSO. The BLACKHAWKS know how to build a team and get-er-done!!! Someone over there seems to understand that you don't have to wait 20 years. Blackhawks were trying to get to the CUP!!! And after spending money last year, they came back and spent some more this year. (note to Cubs/Bulls fans) You don't go to the games when your team sucks and they will field a better team for you. They will understand what needs to be done and provide just that. Supply and Demand. Hawks are in the SAME building and city. Even have the same colors. What's different???????? THE GOALS AND PHILOSOPHIES. And nobody will tell me who has the most money. We all know. But one boxer is trying to win on points and the other is going for a knockout!!
McSwagger - In the 2004–05 season, his rookie year, Gordon averaged 15.1 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.9 assists per game while playing 24.2 minutes per game. OFF THE BENCH. Its no question who is going to be the better player, but Gordon is no slouch here. Compare Gordon's and Rose's stats - then ask yourself how much money do you pay Rose if he is on the market today? Ready to throw the safe at him right???
BIG WAY - "When we add a top tier free agent or 2 prior to 2010(and we will) no one will even remember that Ben Gordon was here." Now that is QUOTE of the YEAR!!!!! Not one but 2 top tier Free Agents!!!!! I almost gagged on my coffee. And I am not the one to come after other posters - but this one was waaaaay up there!!!! Who we getting LABRON AND WADE???? AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHHHHHHHAHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rose has HOF/perennial All-star potential once his D improves, Gordon doesn't. Plus Rose plays the more difficult and demanding position, point guard. A lot of people can score, running a team and still putting up numbers is a lot harder.
He wasn't brought into replace Gordon, he was drafted because he was the best talent available and also an upgrade over Kirk at PG.
I am really doubtful we will get any notable FAs in 2010...probably a second tier star like Joe Johnson by himself.
I still don't get the Gordon hate. He had many faults, wanted too much $...fine. But people act like he ruined the team. He really missed a game, didn't complain to the media and won a lot of games by hitting shots no one else on the team had the guts to make. He could shoot you out of a game but he shot us into and won many games we had no chance to win.
He needed to move on, but I don't think us fans should treat him like a scrub who made the team worse. That hate should be reserved for the likes of Ben Wallace
Villano you maybe right but the games still have to be played and a lot can happen between opening day and next June, ask Garnett about that.
Keith at the end of that post i did ask Edgar if my take on his posts was correct or not and haven't seen an answer yet and after re-reading your post I'm still confused as to where you were coming from or going to. I was entertained however by your musings about Kirk and Rose.
Now as far as BG shooting lights out lets look back at the boston series. Ray Allen matched BG shot for shot and then some. How much older is Allen than BG and BG couldn't stay on him defensively? Down the stretch against Miami Wade owned BG. And Wade plays defense!!! BG claims the Bulls never even made him an offer, but how could they when he was in Detroit agreeing to a contract as soon as the clock allowed it. Do I hate BG ofcourse not but I am not sorry to see him go because now maybe there will actually be team play istead of give the ball to BG and stand around to see if he makes a shot or turns the ball over. I'm guessing here but better than 60% of the time he either missed the shot or turned the ball over trying to create what wasn't there.
Tim - BG is the past, but the examples you provided about Gordon getting torched by Wade and Ray Allen only bolster my point about the man. We were "IN" the fight. And in it vs some pretty good players. Gordon always seems to find himself in a dogfight with TOP TIER performers but is considered a bottom of the league talent. Ben is gone and his "turnovers and poor defense" with him.
The PRESENT is Rose, Salmons and Hinrich. And since they don't turn the ball over and play great defense - our guards should prevail in those kind of battles now. Somebody mentioned Janero Pargo replacing Gordon. I heard the Bulls are seeking to do just that.
Keith once again you're missing my point which simply that BG is not top tier and will always be running in second place behind the likes of Allen, Wade and Hamilton even though he does bring instant offense off the bench as a sixth man he's not content with that role. Now as for your sarcasm about Rose, Salmons and Kirk not turning the ball over only the ROOKIE Rose turned it over as much as BG both averaged 2.4 TO per game. Salmons and Kirk averaged 1.4 and 1.7 per game respectively. But as you say BG is the past so unless somehow provoked I will refrain from any more comment about him.
Tim, yes you are correct. It’s all business with Bulls management. Not that it never is in the sports entertainment industry, but the bigger problem is that Bulls management operates too much in old school, text book and conservative business philosophies. Think about it, even though Jerry Krause is gone, Pax and now Gar Forman have shown nothing different to me and Front Office continues to run the ship the same old way hoping to just bank in on the ONE SPECIAL DRAFT PICK that they can cheaply build their team around with role players, mid-tier experienced veterans and other draft picks. While all these other major market teams like the Lakers and Celtics always think big with the big names and blockbuster deals, the Bulls are always content with waiting waiting waiting on their loyal draft picks to become special players and then if the draft picks don’t pan out the way GarPaxDorf likes, then they just get rid of them for basically nothing. NOTHING. Let’s just try again with another draft pick, but wait, did we luck out with the ping pong balls last year with Derrick Rose! Nothing creative at all. So freakin predictable and old school. With Paxson, I’ll give him some credit for trying different draft strategies by looking at prospects with proven College credentials like Duhon, Hinrich, Gordon, Noah, Tyrus, Deng.., but in the end, he failed to land that special player and his loyalties to a fault caused him to overpay on guys like Hinrich and Deng which has obviously now strapped themselves in salary cap flexibility. With Rose, that was all luck, no drafting skill involved in my book.
Tell me, Tim or anyone out there in blogsphere, how does a team like the Boston Celtics can field a roster that includes Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen and now Rasheed Wallace or a Spurs team with Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and certainly a not-so-cheap Richard Jefferson and not have problems with their salary cap flexibility? Look at the Lakers adding Artest with Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Phil Jackson and co.? How in the world is all that possible while we have or had just Ben Gordon and Derrick Rose as our best players on roster and STILL find ourselves in this position of no cap flexibility? I’ll tell you, it’s bad decisions by the Front Office combined with underachieving draft picks, a colossal mistake in Ben Wallace and the lack of creativity in manipulating the salary cap and formulating blockbuster deals. Conservative and cheap cheap cheap, that’s what. Old school Reinsdorf, please sell the team to someone who cares and is an actual fan of NBA basketball! You see, last week Ben Gordon quoted in the papers the following:
"To the fans, I generally had a great time being here," Gordon said in a phone interview. "For my true fans, I feel bad for them. The longtime fans of the Chicago Bulls - I just felt like they're being cheated. Not with me, but just things that happened in the past. I feel like the fans deserve a lot better."
Boy, was he ever correct in that statement about fans being CHEATED.
As for Keith, Tim, he’s obviously typing in frustration and full of obvious sarcasm. He’s disappointed and I don’t blame him. He’s also finally seeing the other side of being a diehard Bulls fan, but my goal wasn’t to make him hate on the Bulls and become a converted fan towards another sport. I was just trying to get him to understand how these nimrods in the Front Office act as “yes” men pawns in the organization. For me, I'll still support the Bulls only because they're Chicago and becuase I like the sport too much, but just because I'm diehard doesn't mean that it doesn't come with my share of harsh criticism to the team.
I'm with Edgar 100%. The front office is the worst. Money making is the top priority. With all those $ JR makes, he can afford to pay the luxury tax to create a true contender. But he'd rather spend 100 mill to buy a crappy hockey team. It's obvious the Bulls are not a real team like the Celtics, Spurs, Lakers. We're doomed to have a perennial team that may make it to the first round but will never truly go anywhere.
Real teams don't wish and throw all their eggs in a basket hoping to get a FA in 2010. We'll probably end up signing Ron Mercer again like last time, haha.
I'm Chi City til I die so the Bulls will always be my squad no matter how much I hate JR and his puppets
Thanks Edgar. I agree with the entire post! Bulls will drive you to the bottle if you let them. I too look at all these other franchises that HAVE to be spending more money than us. Bulls are in one of the top 3 markets in the country. I found these links quite interesting (wish i could cut and paste):
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm
TIM - the numbers don't lie. Games, MPG, Rebounds, Assists, Turnovers, Points per game. Now guess who was the lowest paid???
ROSE:
Season G MPG RPG APG TO PPG
08-09 81 37.0 3.9 6.3 2.49 16.8
HINRICH:
Season G MPG RPG APG TO PPG
08-09 51 26.3 2.4 3.9 1.71 9.9
SALMONS:
Season G MPG RPG APG TO PPG
08-09 26 37.7 4.3 2.0 1.65 18.3
GORDON:
Season G MPG RPG APG TO PPG
08-09 82 36.6 3.5 3.4 2.44 20.7
Yes Keith andwho was also highest in turn overs?
Edgar BG's statement also tells me he had no intention of staying in Chicago and as for your question...well Boston got Garnett as a gift from Minnesota...Gasool was lost becuase of mis-thinking about the value of Deng by Pax and co. Ray Allen took the minimum for a chance to play with Garnett and Pierce for a tittle. So basically to answer your question yes the front office lacks imagination or has it stymied by an owner that sees the team merely as a means to further line his pockets. Trust me if there was anyway I could buy the team salsry cap be damned there would be more Championship banners hanging in th UC!!
Edgar - you are absolutely right um mad! I don't like waiting when we really don't have to.
I remember Ron Artest leaving and making the same statement BG made and so did Elton Brand. Now RON is going to win a championship and he earned it!!! And the truth is LA was scared that he would go to Cleveland and they did what a smart franchise does and signed him. I read an article about Phil and he compared Artest to Dennis Rodman. Phil was very pleased the Lakers acquired him. And Kobe was thrilled he wouldn't have to face Labron and Ron storming down the court. LA made a preemtive strike.
That is hilarious that Dumars signed some bum like Gordon - LOL! Chicago is making a counter move as we speak!! Gar is planning to sign Jannero Pargo from the Olympiacos Piraeus. SsssssNAPP!!! Look who's laughing NOW!!!
I also wanted to add some more to this… ever since Randy Brown was publicly announced as an asst. coach, where has Management been lately? No response to BG signing with the Pistons? No reaction to BG’s statements to the media about the Bulls never making a counteroffer to BG’s agents? Whatever happened to Mr. New GM Gar Forman’s LYING statements to the press and fans that the team’s top priority this offseason was to re-sign Ben Gordon and improve the team? Not one peep from anyone in the Front Office to wish BG well or simple “thank you” for his scoring contributions or not one ounce of explanation of a backup plan and just admit outright that they are banking on clearing cap space for 2010 from expiring contracts. Now it’s all like secret C.I.A intel within the Bulls Management team to treat the media and fans on a need-to-know basis on what they plan to do as their version of damage control and future plans. Oh wait, that’s right, another wait-and-see approach in the upcoming season for us to give this current team without BG a chance to see if they can succeed without him and then they might tease all of us with more trade rumors. Do these chumps really think fans like us are that stupid?? Just last week I received a renewal letter for season tickets that I stopped using 2 years ago even though Derrick Rose was drafted because I knew exactly where this was headed. They expect to sell this new product of James Johnson, Taj Gibson, Jannero Pargo and asst coach Randy Brown to diehards like myself? It’s insulting to my intelligence. Oh wow, a commitment to defense with rookies, a 2nd year head coach and a cheap asst. coach! Let's draft 2 forwards and create another log jam at the forward position like we did with the guards at the beginning of last season! And for the record, if Bulls management think that they can just wag their salary cap space money when it finally frees up next Summer and easily sign the best of the best of the 2010 class of FA’s, they’re going to have to do a lot better recruiting pitch than that. I know they’re banking on Rose to step up his game and for Salmons and Deng to “replace” the loss of Ben Gordon, but as usual, they’ll wait it out instead of attacking the market like what the Blackhawks have done in their last 2 offseasons to dig themselves out of their once big hole. Look at Wade and Danny Granger already making comments in the papers and radio talk shows that it was a mistake for the Bulls to not re-sign BG. Good luck recruiting Dwayne Wade next season, Gar Forman. Like Swagger already eluded to earlier in his last post, we’re doomed to sign a free agent in 2010 on the level of a Ron Mercer or a Jalen Rose. Oh-my-f’in-goodness….
Tim, I'm not one to try to brag and say that I can "GM" better than GarPax, but it's obvious that their hands are tied by an old goat in Reinsdorf who is transforming into the next "Bill Wirtz" right before our very own eyes if he isn't there already. It's just sad that these pawns can't just stick up for themselves and demand their boss the freedom to do their respective job like they're supposed to do.
Edgar you'll get no arguement from me on jerry Wirtzdorf. And along the line I mkissed something somewhere because except for Keith mentioning the aquisition of pargo i haven't seen it any where and if it is a fact it boggles my mind to think they would go get someone that was on their roster when they couldn't win 35 games and was so far down the depth chart about the only time he played was when there was no chance to come back even with the opponents third string and ball boy on the court. It's probably a good thing I live 750 miles away because i'd be tempted to protest out side the UC.
Edgar,
It's so true what you've said about JR. There is irony in the man however. His GM for the his truly beloved White Sox is known league-wide as something of a "riverboat gambler." Say what you want about Kenny Williams, but you can never say that he doesn't make moves. Moreover, they're often aggressive moves. Then, if that's not enough, his field manager, Ozzie, probably has the biggest mouth in baseball, if not all of sports! While I still think Jerry is basically a Bill Wirtz-type in his marketing acumen--not good--he still shows us a completely different set of management guys running his baseball team. I'm fine with his continued ownership of the White Sox. He's on record as having stated "One World Series ring is worth more to me than six NBA titles" while dropping several other nuggets about how much he loves baseball over basketball. You know what? I would say the same thing! However, if given the chance, I would never venture to own a basketball team! HE MUST SELL! If he's not a fan, then he's probably going to see it as much more like a business in the "old school" sense. A main reason that he's interested in the Phoenix Coyotes hockey team, however dreadful in spite of Gretzky's presence, is that JR has his second home in Phoenix.
Edgar - smart man for cancelling those season tickets! Bulls are going to grab someone like Amare with that free agency money and OVERPAY him like they did with Jalen Rose and Ben Wallace. (Not the player's fault for taking the money.) The signing will be to give the season ticket holding lemmings false HOPE. I TOLD YALL. No respectable free agent is going to come here. ONLY MONEY or selfish exploits will draw someone here. Chicago has a bad rep. Phil Jackson left disgruntled. Mike and Scottie. And now Gordon. And agents talk too. Chicago signs franchise players like Hinrich and Deng - and expect anyone else to DO MORE and make less money. Dwayne Wade and Danny Granger know what Joe Dumars knew when he signed Ben Gordon. That's a great player - Chicago is cheap and they will regret letting him go.
And all these posters that THINK Rose, Hinrich, Salmons and Pargo can give MORE to make up for Gordon's scoring have over-estimated these players and underestimated Gordon. I am betting that on a team with better overall players - GORDON will be the one that produces more. Fans like me know that role players shine when Mr. Big Shot is there sucking the defense in. If these players could just turn it up and give more - WOULDN'T THEY ALREADY HAVE DONE THAT??? They are going to put a bit in Rose's mouth and ride him until he gets hurt. And Rose is going to get hurt because he doesn't know any better. His agent needs to look out for his CAREER, because Chicago just gave away a guy that took the pressure off him. Rose needs to get to that second contract - before he gives CHICAGO his all. Sorry but thats bidness. Aint that what the Bulls tell the fans???
You're exactly correct, Tim. This is where I get into many debates about Reinsdorf with other fans because of the White Sox, Kenny Williams and their World Series in 2005. JR does not run the Bulls team anywhere close to how he runs White Sox operations! It's no secret that his passion in sports is baseball, nothing else comes close. He even allowed Michael Jordan to take a break from his NBA Championship streak to try out baseball. This is the type of passionate and knowledgeable owner in basketball that the Bulls need, not a rich tycoon who treats this NBA team like a business asset on a balance sheet. When it comes to baseball decisions, now you know this is JR's area, even down to hiring the right personnel in Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen + assistants (Don Cooper is one of most underrated pitching coaches in the MLB). JR clearly gives them the freedom to make their own decisions on personnel and payroll. JR may still have the final say on the biggest moves like a possible Roy Halladay deal, but it's clear that he respects and trusts Kenny and Ozzie a lot more than he does with GarPax and Vinny. Bottom line, baseball operates under a different set of collective bargaining rules anyway and JR is just using that NBA salary cap rule to his advantage as an excuse for him to feed off as a profit machine. No doubt, JR is a very smart and shrewd business man which is why he gets a pass from many sports fans, even the smart ones who can probably relate in a business sense, but a good Chicago Bulls owner, he is not.
Oops, let me correct my last post which was more in response to your post, Gig, not Tim. My bad. Actually though, Tim, Pargo hasn't signed with the bulls yet. You can bet the money is better in Europe where he's playing right now, but these shrewd Bulls are just trying to get him on the cheap (even though he's already a cheap player) hoping that he's desperate enough to come back to the States and the NBA on a slight pay cut.
TIM - Look at how many games Gordon played last year. Look at how many minutes he played. Look at how many points, assists and rebounds he averaged. NOW look at that in comparison to the turnovers. Now as a student of the game - I thought the stats would inform you otherwise???
Your Money Player and Captain didnt even play a 3rd of the season - and when he did play, what position was he in?? Was the game on the line? Was all the defense focussed on him?? HOW many minutes was he even on the floor??? Salmons wasn't here but a 3rd of the season. And when he got here, he got to play with a stronger unit than Gordon and Rose had for MOST of the season. Those stats only reveal that 2 of those guys above PLAYED for the entire season - with 2/3rds of the season before the trade - when our inside game improved. And this doesn't even include the playoffs. Stats reveal that all of the guards handled the ball evenly given their time on the floor. Things improved with the development of Noah and the Trade. And um just getting warmed up.
THE STATS, not how you feel about Gordon dribbling off his leg. Things like that happen when you have two or three defenders on you, and you have the clock winding down with nobody cutting and nobody posting - and you are playing for a contract. Sometimes a turnover is what the DEFENSE dictated. Rose's turnovers were even higher - not because he was a rookie; (some but not all). But PRESSURE - to score and get to the rim, to please the hometown, be ROY and live up to the hype.
God I hate Jerry Reinsdorf.
Is there any wonder that people in Chicago do not want to come out to the ballpark that he held us hostage to pay for?
Keith what the stats don't tell you is how many of those turn overs were at crucial points in the game and led to a loss. Now as far as Kirk being my money player and captain when have you ever heard me sing his praises other than to say he excepted his role coming off the bench when he returned from his thumb injury and did a suitable job in that role. I also advocated trading Kirk and Deng and keeping BG as a sixth man which is the role he is best suited for. There is no way I would have given Deng that contract. I would have done him the way they did BG with a one year contract and then after he sat with his mysterious micro-fracture he'd be on the bricks and BG would have been signed. My main point Keith has been BG was never going to be the Bulls savior and it was time for him to go.
Tim - I meant Kirk is ALL of Our Money Player because he is co-Captain and the 2nd highest paid player.
Tim - you are right. Edgar too. I am just trying to get all of this out of my system. I am pissed off to the highest level of pissivity.
When the ball goes up, I am going to be all in, but until then - I am just hating.
Keith says "I am pissed off to the highest level of pissivity." "Pissivity"? LOL...Keith, you are a treasure!
Gig you're right he is a treasure, I probably would have made up the word pissed-offedness but pissivity works I guess.
Keith you know sometimes I like to play devil's advocate when you're worked up because it's fun.
One thing I do find interesting is there has been more comments on the Bulls and Hawks threads lately than on Cubs or Sox threads. I mean look this thread has triple the number of posts as the thread about the Sox GM accusing the fans lack of attendance if the Sox don't make the play-offs (btw Phil that was an excellent piece on Reinsdorf's history). But I'm sure if anyone was to point that out to JR and even if he read the comments made about him and his attitude, I'm sure his reaction would be ...wtf do those people know? how do they think I got this f'in rich in the first place?They're my teams I'll do as I please 'cause it's good to be king. Well JR all I have to say is I have more respect for the late Al Capone than I do for you. At least Al cared enough about the people of Chicago to fund soup kitchens during the depression until he went to prison, you on the other hand won't give the people a basketball team they can be proud of.
Thanks Gentlemen, but I borrowed that line from the late, great Bernie Mack. And yes I want to bust Jerry in his head until the white meat shows!
JR sits in his office eating his cheese sandwich and drinking his tea....
The main problem with the Gordon situation is that we didn't make it look like we even tried to resign him. After Forman saying resigning him was a top priority, the front office look like liars. That is going to be an issue for potential FA's like Wade. Of course we all wouldn't pay Ben 10 mill just to score, fine, I think everyone's on the same page. But to let a player like him just walk with NO offer makes the team look bad.
A FA in 2010 is going to say "is the team going to treat me like this once it's time to negotiate a new deal". Bulls front-office already had a bad rep due to the breakup of the dynasty team and how Phil and Scottie were treated.
Stuff like this makes us look like liars and not only that but cheap-a$$ liars at that.
There is no reason why every other team including small markets like San Antonio can stockpile and add on talent every year while we go thru the scraps
JR's office while the Bulls play is normally in Phoenix. He's not even near them most of the time.
The Bulls do look dumb for not being able to work a sign & trade for their best scorer 4 yrs straight. That will not inspire all-star FA's next summer to sign with us. The Bulls best hope for the future remains the likelihood that a healthy Deng to entice the Raptors/Suns into trading Bosh/Amare before the deadline.
Keith:
Your post about Artest, and LA snapping him up before Cleveland could was spot on.
This past season they struggled just a little bit more than Phil Jackson coached teams usually do in the playoffs.
Next year they will roll over every opponent they face.
Anyone who thinks that the Bulls would not be better off with Brand, Artest, and Jackson at the helm is smoking a little more potent than tobacco.
Oh hey Tim, I meant to respond much earlier to your post about Ray Allen signing with the Celtics at a minimum salary, but just finally remembered now. That's wrong. Boston paid Allen $17 million last season and Allen is scheduled to be paid over $19 million in this final season under contract. The Celts will be over the NBA salary cap by almost $20 million for this coming season, but were able to sign Rasheed Wallace under the mid-level cap exception rule. Of course the Bulls aren't sharp enough to take advantage of any Salary Cap exception rules because they never go above that cap under any circumstance (i.e. they're cheap). Like I said before, the Bulls use the cap as their excuse so that they can earn more profits that pay more for an NHL team investment opportunity than to the paying Bulls fan. Bunch of cons! Oh wait, but that's just business to some....
The Bulls aren't even cheap, they're just dumb with money.
We overpaid for Hinrich when there was no competition, we re-upped his rookie contract on the basis that he was gonna be the next Steve Nash....didn't work out.
Overpaid Deng for the awesome playoff series where we swept the Heat(who were old and injured and overrated). WE thought he was gonna be an All-star....again wrong...
Overpaid Nocioni when nobody else was gonna match an offer. Again wrong decision
The Bulls will give money but it's to the wrong players and because they are "nice" guys that JR likes. If JR doesn't like you, you have no future on this team also if yer agent is someone who's not friends with JR like Deng's agent was....no $ for you.
The Bulls are both cheap and dumb with their money, Swagger. Good points though, but they're cheap in the sense that they won't go for broke in free agency and blockbuster trades and they won't dare touch luxury tax territory unless they're absolutely pushed into a corner like they were with Jordan. Otherwise, you're right on with overpaying the wrong guys. That original core still continues to haunt this team's payroll even today. Pathetic.