Hawks, Bulls can hold heads high

Hawks and the Bulls played at the level they are at as teams.

The Bulls underachieved in my opinion, but star power may have done them in. I think a lot of it was poor coaching and learning-on-the-job-itis. They need one or two stars to compete in the East with Orlando, Cleveland, Boston, Philadelphia and Atlanta. Boston is going to get KG back and Philly is going to get Brand back. And count on Miami and Toronto to improve also. One of those Two stars need to be a post player. We simply have too many guys learning on the job. Deng might have some answers, but I wouldnt bank on him if he was part of the pool-table. The other star needs to be a shooting guard. No more kids and projects please. I don't care if Beasely and Griffin become available. PROVEN COMMODITIES. One trade for some veterans vastly improved the team - in just a few months. Its an indicator of the direction the Bulls need to go in. Even if they don't pick up another star, let it be a veteran player. And if this is the direction we are headed, PLEASE get a real coach.

I don't understand the Hawks so I will leave the technical splaining to those that do. From what I do understand they seem to be a team on the rise instead of a team ready to win it all. I think they got as far as they did because the players were star quality, the goal-tending was excellent and the coaching was on point. But how can you be anything but hopeful and happy for them because they have come so far so fast. I like the way management is going for theirs. No waiting and debating, pontificating and negotiating!! Spent the bucks, shook things up and pointed the Hawks at the Stanley Cup! Now that's how you do it. Don't know where they go from here, but somebody over there is doing something right.

I totally agree with Keith's assessment of the Bulls. The Bulls took a step forward but so will a lot of other teams in the East. Package those two first Rounders and get a real NBA star.

The Blackhawks did just fine and it looks like that there are some great days ahead for them.
It is a lot like the days when the Bulls were not ready to pass the Pistons.
They learned what was needed and the talent finally caught up with and passed Detroit's.
I believe that the same thing is happening here.

Blackhawks – I’m usually not into “moral victories”, but this playoff run will only help the Hawks in the long run. They just weren’t ready to win it all yet, but they made a helluva great ride in the playoffs because I didn’t think they’d get past Vancouver. Detroit is just too experienced combined with skilled players all across the board that really, only age will slow that team down if they keep most of their roster intact. I’m not sure what more the Hawks can do to upgrade in the offseason, but they’ll definitely have to make some important decisions on Khabibulin, Havlat and Versteeg contracts, among others. As for upgrading thru free agency, I don’t know… I guess I’ll leave that to Gig or the other hockey expert bloggers to comment on because I’m not as fine tuned to this sport as I am to the big 3 sports. At least Huet did redeem himself at goalie last night, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s still a big question mark for many fans going into next season. Top priority for the Hawks in the offseason? Managing that salary cap effectively, I’m afraid. Kane and Toews big contract talks loom ahead at the end of next season…

Bulls – well, I kinda started on them already in the last Bulls blog posted in FCP, but they do have some tweaking to do on their roster as well because as good and entertaining that Celtics playoff series was, they’ve got a ways to go to seriously contend in the East now that not only LeBron is a big enough obstacle as it is year in and year out going forward, but Dwight Howard has stepped up his game big time for the Magic team that’ll only get better also with Jameer Nelson back as their lead guard next season. I’m worried about the development of Tyrus Thomas because I just don’t think Vinny and co. know what they’re doing with this guy and he’s too talented to just keep playing one half of basketball and then punish him to the bench on every single mistake he makes on the floor. That’s just not going to work with TT. Personally, I don’t want TT traded, but either he goes or the coaches go. Unfortunately, we already know that GarPaxDorf will give Vinny all the chances to improve upon his first season (I swear, the coaches better improve on the DEFENSE schemes!). I see TT being shopped around along with Hinrich. As for Ben Gordon, I think Gar will try to re-sign him, but BG will price himself out of the negotiations and I don’t think it’ll even be close. So where does all this lead with the Bulls? The NBA draft with 2 first rounders and I see them grabbing one or maybe even 2 of the Clippers big men in Camby/Kaman on a trade. Camby makes the most sense because he has 1 year left on his current contract. As for the NBA Draft, the Bulls would be wise to look into size and strength and high basketball IQ, but as always, I see them looking at another wing forward with athleticism but raw skills. My picks for the Bulls 2 first rounders if they keep them would be anyone from DeJuan Blair, Jrue Holiday, Jonny Flynn, Tyreke Evans or BJ Mullens. Holiday reminds me of Rondo as a sleeper non-lottery draft pick. Holiday and Rose in the backcourt could be something special. Free agency – Bulls will stay away from the Restricted FA’s, so some of the UFA’s on the list worth looking at if Gordon doesn’t re-sign: Artest? (hmm), Trevor Ariza, Anthony Parker, Brandon Bass… Opt out players: wow, Turkoglu and Okur on the list, Ilgauskas also (not bad, but injury prone), but these guys are probably better off working out a contract extension with their own teams.

Ah yes, Go Bulls and Blackhawks! Thanks for the great memories in 2009!!

These are my 12 highlights from this past season:

1. Achieving their initial goal of making the playoffs as well as bringing back hockey in full force to the Chicago landscape.
2. Achieving their secondary goal (desired as the season progressed) of winning a playoff series.
3. Winning a second playoff series against the odds and making it to the conference finals.
4. Engaging in several comebacks that simply aren't done in playoff hockey.
5. "Hat Trick" Kane in Game 6 to knock out Vancouver.
6. Marty Havlat's tying goal very late in Game 4 against Vancouver when losing the series seemed very real and then winning in OT.
7. Havlat's OT goal against Calgary.
8. 104 points to place 4th in the Conference (actually third as Vancouver had just 100 points, but won their division).
9. Nine game winning streak during the season.
10. 22 road victories.
11. Beating the San Jose Sharks, the President's Cup team, twice, including a dominating performance in the "Shark Tank."
12. Establishing all-time attendance records at the UC.

Honorable Mention: The job that Cristobal Huet did in their final game was utterly fantastic which gave most of us hope that he can be the main guy next season.

Goals for this off-season:

1. Re-sign Marty Havlat (in my mind the best YOUNG free agent this summer--Hossa is not that young).
2. Say goodbye to Khabby and his contract leaving the necessary cap space. He wasn't quite as dominant as he used to be at age 37 and it was also his "contract year."
3. Replace Matt Walker. He's o.k. as a reserve D-man, but nothing more. He gives his all. He's just not a very good player.
Hopefully, Brent Sopel will be back or someone better?
4. Patrick Kane needs to spend time watching videos of small guys who play sound defense and fighting through checks as well as time in the weight room.
5. We could use a big, but mobile, defenseman to move oak trees like Holmstrom and Franzen from the front of the net. It's tough to find both qualities in one player however.
6. There's no question that the Red Wings are the measuring stick. Guys like Helm are also a future concern. We need to use this past series to put the finishing touches, apart from the experience factor, on this team.
7. Perhaps it isn't too early to begin long-term contract negotiations with Toews and Kane and some others. The closer it gets to the end of their contracts, the harder it will become. On that note, money management could be the one problem the Hawks have going forward with this miniscule salary cap (by today's standards).

Don't stop short of the goal!

KLTSS

whos star power?

our Bulls or theres?

Are you talking about Big Baby Davis? or Perkins? or Rondo? Those dudes werent stars, until AFTER THE SERIES.

Allen and Peirce played decent and finished the series strong, but at times Paul Peirce looked old and slow and lazy...and Allen was streaky and couldnt guard an old lady.

Dont agree with you about that, I think we got done in by our own inexperience and our own careless mistakes. Not starpower...unless you mean of course Starbury!?!

The Bulls top priority should be to re-sign Ben Gordon. You need three key guys to be a legitimate NBA contender, and with Rose (as long as he develops as expected) and Gordon, we have two of them. The third one has to be in the frontcourt.

Therefore, the Bulls need to put themselves in a position to get an Amare Stoudemire, Yao Ming, Lebron James, Chris Bosh type player. Whether that is directly trading for Amare/Bosh, or creating capspace (for example Deng to the Suns for Shaq; Hinrich to the Clippers for Camby), to sign one of the big men in 2010 free agency.

As long as Jerry Reinsdorf isn't cheap, and he has no legitimate reason to be (most profitable team in the NBA over the past 10 years), then the Bulls can take advantage of other teams' financial problems to rapidly become a true championship contender.

Culzie, I believe Keith meant to say that the "lack of star power" did the Bulls in with their playoff series.... I understand what he's saying in he would rather the Bulls acquire a solid veteran player, but I'm not liking what I see overall on the available list of free agents and opt out players. I still say stockpile the young talent until they get it right while Derrick Rose is still in development phase of his career. Get Kaman and/or Camby if they can pass a physical 100% with flying colors.

Gig, great job blogging on the Blackhawks. You are the man in that sport, the "Anthony Navarro" of NBA blogging. ;-)

Culzie/Edgar - I meant BOTH. Ray Allen willed one of those games all by himself. Paul Pierce wasn't himself, but he was enough for the Bulls. Old school looked tired, but they were enough while their young stars shinned brightly. Rondo and Big Baby were stellar, while Perkins, House and Maubury provided the support. Celtics were missing a BIG star. He's old too, but with him Boston returns to the finals to meet and lose to LA. With those old stars.

Bulls have one potential star, and he has a huge learning curve. Mr. Derrick Rose. You will not find a bigger fan and harsher critic than me. Mr. Billups is demonstrating how to run that position, but without players to pass to you can only go so far.

Thanks Edgar, although you're both kind and very modest as you could take the basketball throne yourself as wonderful as Anthony, Keith and several others are! Heck, if we could find a throne wide enough, we could put a bunch of you on it at the same time. How much you'd all appreciate that cozy experience might be another story. Nevertheless, all of you guys have taught me volumes about basketball. Moreover, Edgar, you do a very fine job at football!

Now, it's baseball season only and we need to get our teams rolling. I haven't been focused on my Sox so much, but now is the time for me to drag out the microscope on my favorite sport of all.

Go Sox!

"Bulls have one potential star, and he has a huge learning curve."

Oh ... that learning curve isn't so hard.

Especially when you have people changing your grades, and taking your SAT test for you.

It's all in the wrist, Keith.

Gig is certainly our resident Hockey expert! Stu could just forward those recommendations to the Hawks! And I second Edgar's sentiments - Gig is just good. Keep them ALL coming my friend!

Villy - I am dying! Yeah Rose got busted. But you better believe that was the work of others around him. I personally know of some Illinois players that got that same treatment. GREAT conversation about it this morning on the SCORE! They actually managed to move on from the Cubs for a change, but I turned after the Rose segment (lol). And the calls into the show were FAN-TASTIC! One caller echoed the way I feel about cheating in sports vs what happens in society. Its almost excepted that politicians and businessmen will cheat - but an Athlete is held to FRONT PAGE scrutiny. And he was right as rain! Capitalism is mostly good, but it breeds cheating. Memphis wasn't about to lose out on Rose for some "culturaly biased test", which the hosts acknowledged. Asking some kid from the hood about Lobster and Maine and Africa. But if you ask some people - there is still no bias or racism and everything is equal and fair, "Americans get by with morals, values and hard work". Rose did what most people do - WHAT THEY HAVE TO - to get ahead in the land of milk and honey. Rose is no different than Arod or anyone else. He or "his camp" cheated to get him ahead. It was wrong, but I am going to shirk my shoulders just like President Bush did to Scooter Libby and the rest of his buddies that have FAILED this nation. It would have been a tragedy for Rose to miss his opportunity because of cultural bias. THE POOR - have to jump through all those hoops, and are asked to play the game fair and square. Biff from Northshore is getting in with a LETTER FROM DAHDDY - not hard work - and TRUST ME on this one....it was once my job to know. Not everyone cheats - but more than enough is going on, especially where REAL money is. The problem is who we the public come after!

That's pretty good, Villano. Even I had to chuckle on that one despite it relating to the Bulls and Derrick Rose. Unfortunately, you're touching on a very controversial subject that affects many segments of sports from the high school level to the pros. Stu, you planning to bring this up as a another blog topic or is this just too deep of an issue to discuss in FCP?

Well Keith, I certainly hear ya and I can't say that I disagree because I don't, but you've only covered a small portion of the issues at hand as this has already impacted the IHSA, the NCAA, the NBA, the Chicago Public School System, John Calipari, U of Kentucky, U of Memphis, the NBA draft rule eligibility, the moral code, the families involved, the precedent settings, the credibility of the college entrance guidelines, the Bulls organization right down to Pax and Reinsdorf, Mayor Daley, etc. etc... I mean really, this list can go on and on and fact of the matter is Derrick Rose has NOT been busted yet because these are just ALLEGATIONS, remember that. Now of course, deep down both of us and many others are not that naive to think he's all that innocent, but the cover up has already started and concrete evidence will soon be impossible to obtain. There are too many players involved in this mess and life will just simply go on until the next well known celebrity or athlete gets caught in another similar story. I have no answers or suggestions to this. Good luck to Rose... just work on your jump shot and defense and it'll be all good.

Villano, nothing has been proven yet so let's remember to include the word "alledgedly" when commenting. Admittedly the accusations are probably more fact than fiction but just how much copability does Derrick have and how much belongs to those around him or a system that says he can't play right out of high school? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not advocating letting high school players enter the draft again noir I am resolving Derrick of any blame if the accusations prove to be true but in the grand scheme of things our society has more often than not turned a blind eye or forgiven transgressions of perceived heroes and men of power. JFK and RFK are to this day considered two of this countries greatest men inspite of their adulterous behavior and what role they may or may not have played in the sudden death of Marilyn Monroe. Ted Kennedy remains a senator after being caught cheating at Harvard and after the tragedy at Chappequidick(I'm sure that's mis-spelled). There are also countless athletes, O.J. being the most infamous of all that have escaped justice because of his celebrity. Steroid use accusations and confirmations are rampant in major league baseball but the game goes on and still nothing concrete is done about it which should really piss Pete Rose off about his life time suspension for gambling. The NCAA in my opinion is the ultimate hyprocite. Most of the athletes in collegeare not by definition "amatures". They get paid through scholarships and other perks and it is becoming a rarity that an athlete (especially basketball players) remains in school 4 years if the pros show an interest in drafting them. Maybe what the NBA should have a second draft for high school seniors that requires those drafted to play a minimum of one year in the developemental leagueat a salary comensurate to the cost of a years college tuition and also structure the salary scale of college draftees acording to the number of years spent in school instead of what round or number they are drafted at. Ok I'll step down from my soap box now before some one takes a shot at me LOL. On to more important things such as getting another cup of coffe and doing todays crossword :)

Keith - interesting post...but it is ok that a minority with inferior grades gets into UofI over a white kid from the burbs with a better GPA and ACT? This happens today - I KNOW I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it does go on especially in public universities. They have to...

Also, racism isn't the answer to everything...family values and structure do tend to make some impact.

"Biff from Northshore is getting in with a LETTER FROM DAHDDY - not hard work "

Just an incredibly IGNORANT statement not deserving of a response...

Keith - the only thing I could think of after reading your diatribe was the classic line from Billy Madison...

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

And now for some estrogen in the middle of all these man-crushes. Jeez.

Gig - excellent analysis of the Hawks. I agree about the need for a " Big, mobile defenseman " but wonder if the Hawks are sorta stuck with Campbell and the money they're spending on him. I was thinking fondly about a sober Probert-type but let's face it, nobody really fights like that anymore in the NHL.

Don't know what will happen with the Bulls and I will always defer to others who know the game of basketball better than I do, which is almost everyone.

The fact that we cannot pass meaningful campaign finance reform in this state bothers me a whole lot more than Derrick's grades.

Looks like this blog has really died since Roman left. He at least put some thought into it and kept it current. Now it's just pictures and empty headlines, nothing really to discuss. That is a shame.
Stu responds: Thanks Artie, appreciate all feedback, positive or negative. Been on the highway last couple of days and unable to post, but the group-generated discussion about Derrick Rose on this post has been great.

Biff from Northshore is getting in with a LETTER FROM DAHDDY - not hard work - and TRUST ME on this one....it was once my job to know

uh huh...and why do we have to include our race on college applications?

Never under-estimate the stupidity of people!

"Memphis wasn't about to lose out on Rose for some "culturaly biased test", which the hosts acknowledged. Asking some kid from the hood about Lobster and Maine and Africa."

Give me a break Keith.

Should the requirement of being able to read and write in the English language (when you've been born and raised in America) be considered "culturally biased"????

I've listened to Rose talk on numerous occasions, and my well tuned ears can attest to the fact that he is functionally illiterate.

He's "shy, and quiet" for a reason. The man can can barely speak English!

Let's cut all the bull crap here, and speak a little English ourselves:

Rose couldn't spell "Cat" if you spotted him the "C" and the "T".

You know that ... I know that ... and if Rose were ever to take a monitored test, he'd prove it to you himself.

This guy had no business even being eligable for a college scolarship; the point of which is higher education. (the last time I checked)

He took the spot of someone who could actually read and write, in order to forward this institution's athletic program, and his own non-academic / athletic career.

Memphis couldn't have cared less if his IQ was a single digit figure; they were going to recruit him. He could have tested out at the third grade level, and they would have found a way to get him on the floor.

But Rose bears some of the blame here, if not the brunt of it.

This kid has been playing hookey all his life, and he it played well so they let him slide.

I doubt that he's ever cracked open a book in earnest, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone also did his homework for him at both Simeon, and Memphis.

When Rose came out of Memphis, people spoke of him as a role model.

I knew that his year in college was a sham, and now it's finally coming to light.

Damn Keith... reading my mind again and writing half of my entry before I got to it. For people to honestly think that great players aren't catered to from high school on up it's comical. Lebron was being looked at when he was a 7th grader. Half the guys from my old high school who played sports should've been in there for 7 years instead of the 4. One basketball player I knew could take an hour to read those little scripts from "bazooka joes". Everyone wants to get that gravy train going with them from the high school coach who won't keep or get a better job if his team doesn't win to that same coach who might get an assistant college coaching job if he steers his players a certain way. With the amount of money spent on sports you better believe that eligibility comes first before anything else. But on the topic of the Bulls and Hawks; I'm just a less than passing fan to one of those teams and wouldn't pick any of their players out of a lineup except for Toews but I'm happy for the fans that they had a great showing. I'm sorry that your adulations were shortlived but you can see that they future is still bright for both teams.

Villy - I got that LOBSTER question FROM THE SCORE AM670, ask someone in sports if you think um lying. One of the H O S T S discussed a question even he had a problem with. The question was a trick question about where lobsters came from and the choices were MAINE and AFRICA. Apparently the trick was that Lobster Tails actually come from Maine, Lobsters from Africa, but one of affluence would have to "know" that. The guys on the score were laughing hysterically and rightfully so!!! They called the test BIASED and a joke. Now that you know its not KEITH that made that up, are you still disgusted or angry???

Now Rose is not the brightest crayon in the box. Same with many Athletes of ALL COLORS, but who is on the entire PAGE of the Sun Times??? And why? Scooter LIBBY gave up an AMERICAN SPY, got pardoned by the PRESIDENT and could'nt get that kind of coverage. AN ENTIRE PAGE! And we wonder what's wrong.

Tommy - you keep on fighting reverse racism. Yeah because minorities are taking jobs from good ole boys evray daye! But let me conceed this point - that same University has a quota of minorities they let in - who cannot afford the education. Its merciful, but in Chris Rock's voice: "it sure makes the programs and websites look nice". And don't get too cocky, the INDIANS and ASIANS have the highest scores by far. And NO Minority is there without top scores. And you better believe they are the best of the best because Biff and his kind needs someone to help them pass tests and to work for him at his DAH-DEE's company (you have to say it with both nostrils open) "DAH-DEE". Guys on ESPN AM 1000 have it down.

CARL - I may be poor, but I work for the RICH and I know its hard for you to believe that BIFF could actually CHEAT or catch a "break", or excercise their "privilege", but I have seen it with my own EYES. A VERY prominent North Shore University opens its doors for kids who's DAH-DEES have deep pockets. Got a REJECTION LETTER and made one call and presto! And some of them are dumb as rocks. I have seen it done MANY times. So go ahead and save that uppidy response. I GUESS only ROSE and his kind can cheat???

JT - Not trying to win points, just make them. Keep the Lord out of this. How bout a penny for one of YOUR thoughts. Not about what I said, but what you think. And leave Billy Madison out of it too. You just ASSUMED that everyone saw that movie...

"And don't get too cocky, the INDIANS and ASIANS have the highest scores by far."

If you think about the fact that people who weren't even born here, and were raised in households where Farsi and Chinese were spoken, actually read, write, and speak English better than almost every home grown African American on any given basketball team, it boggles the mind.

There is no rationalization, justification, or excuse for this that makes any sense to me.

Keith...

Here's one thought...try reading a book instead of listening to sports talk. That chip on your shoulder is bound to fall at some point right?

People on this blog appear to know your act by now. The over/under on your posts before race is brought in is about 3. You did make a great point about other minorities (Asians, Indians) and their test scores. Why is that do you think? Can't have ANYTHING (love you use of caps) to do with keeping a solid family structure, making sure your daughter doesn't get pregnant at 15, making sure your kid doesn't join a gang, educating them on how living off the government is NOT a good thing - can't be any of those things right?

One last thought...those are NOT klansmen in your closet!

Guys...let it go. Keith will spew his over the top, over-generalized nonsense...take on the world...then say he didn't mean what he typed. Whatever...

Villano...u beat me to the punch. I did about 120,000 miles last year. You want to see poverty and NO CHANCE to succeed...check out Calcutta, parts of Malaysia, and so on. Absolutely heart-breaking...

Keith, your experts at THE SCORE and whom evercame up with that question in the first place obviously don't know their lobster. Maine lobster is not sold only as lobster tails and African Rock Lobster is not sold only as whole lobster. They are both sold either way. The biggest difference in the way they are sold here in the U.S. is that Maine Lobster can be bought live in a grocery store where as African lobster is almost exclusively sold frozen. Therefore the real answer to the question where does lobster come from...Maine or Africa...is BOTH!
I am also unaware that having "deep pockets" was exclusive to the white race. But hey I'm just a high school grad that spent 30 years making steel in NW Indiana and retired to North Carolina and better weather so what do I know? Now Keith before you go visualizing me as a Colonel Sanders type sitting on the porch of a southern mansion, in a white suit sipping mint julips while typing on my wireless laptop, don't because because I'm a lot closer to being like Uncle Jesse from Dukes of Hazard in bib overalls and pockets the depth of a thimble but my truck is a little nicer than Fred Sanford's LOL.
Stu I agrre to a point with Artie....every thread does not need or deserve an a acocompanying photo and sometimes the best threads have been those with a headline followed by one or two sentences followed by a simple ...what do think? And quite often Roman's response to one of the regular bloggers would spark more interaction than his short initial post after the headline. But I realize everyone has their own style and I guess we just need a little more time to adjust to change.
Stu responds: Thanks for the input Tim, we aim to please here at FCP (although I don't see the harm in using a photo ... Roman started doing it with pretty much every post his final six months). BTW, loved your Colonel Sanders and Fred Sanford imagery ... LOL.

Please. Championship level athletics is such a hypocrisy when it comes to academic integrity. They lower practically every academic requirement they can to get these players in and takes in millions of dollars. And let's not forget the TV networks who rake in the cash on the backs of these athletes.

Newsflash. The NCAA rewards cheating. If you don't like it, don't watch it or support it.

Derrick Rose exploited a system that exploits him right back. Guess this means that his ONE year of college has been tarnished. On no, how will he sleep at night.

"Villano...u beat me to the punch. I did about 120,000 miles last year. You want to see poverty and NO CHANCE to succeed...check out Calcutta, parts of Malaysia, and so on. Absolutely heartbreaking..."

At the risk of looking like a racist, I'll take this a step further:

I've lived and worked in Chicago my entire life. I used to work for the Chicago Park District back in the 70's. I've worked in neighborhoods where players like Rose grew up, and the environment that allowed players like him to prosper on the court is a cultural cess pool.

Not to beat a dead horse; but my wife didn't arrive in America until she was in her early thirties.

She had spoken Russian her entire life up until that time, and now, at the age of 51, her mastery, and grasp of the English language would put to shame that of a great many NBA players that were born here, raised here, and attended school at an elite collegiate level.

As I stated earlier, there is no excuse for this whatsoever... other than pure laziness, and a culture that abides it.

Galina wanted to learn English, and she did.

Rose had no desire to do so, and the results are obvious.

She had to actually study, and apply herself in order to achieve a working command of a language that was completely foreign to her; whereas African Americans that were born and raised here have never, EVER, had to hurdle this linguistic obstacle.

Was Mr. Rose somehow more disadvantaged than my wife?

I highly doubt it.

To be blunt: if Galina were ever to engage Mr. Rose in conversation in his native tongue ... chances are that he wouldn't understand the meaning of half the words she was speaking to him in his own language.

The mere fact that my Russian born wife speaks better English than Rose is a damning indictment of the so called African American / Hip Hop Culture that is all the rage in our society.

Face facts guys: no one is lining up and selling out arenas to watch spelling bees. I'm not saying that they shouldn't but the reality is that no one really cares if players can read or write but whether they can play a game. Do you honestly think that players who grew up in the rural areas during the 20s thru the 50s were educated? I'm pretty sure that there are guys who are in the hall of fame in just about every sport were not able to read even the contracts that most of them signed let alone newspapers that had articles written about them. But here we are going to have people who are furious that Rose took the place of a student that was more deserving. If you had taken that one kid who missed the cut in getting into that university and lined him up next to Derrick Rose and asked the alumni and current students to cast a vote between them to see who everyone would REALLY want to be there, just about all of them would pick Rose over that kid. They would do it right in his face. The boy's parents would probably do it too if they were alumni. The ones who wouldn't pick Rose most likely didn't like sports. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just telling you most likely what the reality would be. Why pass this kid along for all those years to hurt him. They weren't trying to hurt him, they were helping themselves. No one cared because they all benefited from him throwing a basketball into a hoop. The next time I see a University or a team get rid of a "great" player because of his inability to read it will be the first time. Now if he's average you can bet that he's probably adhering to a different set of rules than that superstar. And the next time I see a University make millions off of a chess player or a mensa student then that would be a first. Even if they did does anyone remember his name. I don't see stats for grade point averages. The only player I know from the Bears for example who is thought of as an intellect is Hunter Hillenmeyer and there isn't anyyone on the Bears Blog who is crying over the fact that Pisa most likely will take his roster spot. They didn't cry when a guy named Roach took his starting position, either. People fail to realize about a lot of black player is that it's that they are only speaking in an accent. No different that most people who are very southern and are caucasian. People I see from trailer parks on Jerry Springer don't speak that english in the proper manner that you would like them to. Those players you mentioned Mark have accents and dialects that are just different from what you hear everyday. It's what they hear everyday. I grew up in the hood and when the situation presents when I go back I will talk in a manner that will allow me to converse without getting my ass kicked because some dude who think I'm trying to pass myself off as better than them. The last thing I needed to do was show any signs of speaking better than anyone else when I took my car to the shop to be repaired. A man who works with his hands in the urban areas can care less if he's coming off as stupid if it he's managing to take your money and feed his family or himself. Even Jordan had that accent when he first came into the N.B.A. Once a player decides that sounding proper will get him more money than just playing ball he will do his best to sound more refined. A lot of players who were first talking with that dialect got rid of it once they saw that there are people who love them more for speaking proper english. Does that mean that he's a better reader? O.J. tried his best to show that he couldn't write or read well but no one knew or cared until he became infamous. Magic Johnson comes to mind ,as well, when it comes to players who were speaking differently than proper. He still slides from time to time. Since the people who originally populated the U.S. are almost as extinct as the dinosuar I will just say that in reality none of us are speaking in the native tongues that once populated this country. There is no shame in that is there? We welcome Espanol as a 2nd language, openly, because it's not going away. Off.. Soap box... Done.

Mark, it's great that your wife speaks english better than most african american players do. But I'm sure that your wife has not lost her accent. I was told and I've seen for a fact that when a person migrate here from another country after their 20s they are unable to lose their accent. And truth be told there are probably people who don't like Russians who hate a person's accent for not being American. In this country you are bound to upset or piss somebody off just because they're different. That just means that you or that person have a bug up your butt about that situation. In the Army I met a guy from Boston and people always repeated "car and garage" in their exaggerated Boston accent to him. Then they would tell him that he should talk different. WTF. This man couldn't be different? Why couldn't we talk like Bostonians? Also, there was a Jewish guy that had to endure all the little jokes about Jews. The guy from New York who had to endure the Yonker jokes. Hell, I had everyone asking me if everyone was just like Al Capone or Mr. T who was big at the time. In the big melting pot called the Army I met people from all of this country and most of them had a bug up their butt about someone being from somewhere different. Call me crazy but what gives a person a right to make fun of a person for being different? Like I said; stick around this world long enough and you are bound to get on a person's nerve for something that they didn't care for in the first place. Why does Hip Hop even get brought up for influencing African Americans in a bad way when I see young white dudes employed at jobs looking more hip-hop than I ever did? I've even seen young Asians with hip hop attire and talking hip hop slang better than anyone I know who is under 30. Hip Hop gets a bad rap because it came from black people. Everything that came from blacks gets a bad rap in the beginning until every other race catch on. I see it in sports all the time. High fives and chest bumps were considered black until caucasians started doing it on the regular. Brothers danced after TDs and bragged and jumped around after sacks and Gastineau was called an ass for doing his thing. Now guys flex and showboat and do whatever they like. Doesn't some even hog-tie an invisible QB laying on the ground? All of those showboaters aren't black. Maybe during your retirement you're stuck watching TV thinking that that is the real world. Passing thru that world while you were working couldn't possibly tell you the whole story about everyone that was in those communities. Don't let the bad you see cloud your judgment about the good that is more overwhelming. I Remember,when I was younger, that when something happened in a black neighborhood that they would pass up the regular looking people to interview the one with the hair-rollers and the bad venacular to down what was there because they were feeding you the negatives because that's all anyone wanted to see. Like Richard Pryor said when it happened in his black neighborhood it was a shame but when it happened in a white neighborhood that it was an epidemic. Truer words have never been spoken. I just had to get that bug outta my butt... Done.

Oh and I'm sorry that I've combined Tim and Mark's profile together. You guys have been on this blog so long that I've meshed you together when I shouldn't have. I just wonder why Mark keep bringing up players who don't speak his 'proper' english when there are whites who do it as well. I don't listen to interviews after a game because I don't need anyone telling me what I just saw for myself. Nails on a blackboard doesn't bother everyone. Why do you lump all African american together like that and then say that you don't want to risk sounding racist? Sorry dude but honestly you do. And I've never felt that way about you until just now.

First of all, I agree with your entire post William.

Secondly, as a teacher, I've had the misfortune on more than just a couple of occasions of teaching all-state type athletes--all WHITE students--who had no respect for the classroom environment, were poor students, and hardly ever did anything worthwhile apart from what they did on the football field, baseball diamond, or basketball court. Frankly, one was a downright despicable human being having an ego the size of Washington State, no respect for anyone besides perhaps his coaches, and would often get in trouble with the law.

Due to the "Friday Night Lights" type of environment in which I teach, regardless of the rules about bad grades and poor discipline records, people would simply look the other way and allow them to play. In the case of the aforementioned "despicable" athlete, he was so increasingly spoiled that every time you saw him, he seemed worse. How many of those types do we see in our sports spotlights?

Before I put everyone who looks the other way in a box and destroy it with an explosive device, I must add that a key individual who allowed this brand of social engineering--the football coach/athletic director was/is a man I respect. He's a wonderful, God-fearing family man whose one daughter happens to be one of the finest students and leaders I've ever had the fortune to teach. This individual believed that these athletes "had nothing else." I used to rail against his attitude. Now, I at least respect it, because he has a point--although I'll go to my grave with the notion that anyone who breaks the law or can't treat people with any modicum of respect may waive their rights to athletic stardom regardless of his/her talents. I believe we all need to pay more of a price in life rather than the one in which our talents profit.

My point is that our system is flawed. One could say that sports is given far too much attention and some of us may not find out how true that is until the afterlife. Regardless, it is what it is. We still have a system in which most kids' athletic prowess starts in school. Should it? I think probably not if it were a perfect world. I mean there ought to be alternative routes for athletic kids to take who have trouble fitting into the rest of the educational culture. One could argue that they do exist with little leagues, Pop Warner, etc., but they don't have the collective pull and community following as high school and college sports have.

One thing I like about both baseball and hockey is that a person can choose from two equally strong avenues upon leaving high school: college or professional (minor leagues and junior hockey).
In basketball and football, I guess there are other avenues, but how strong and revered are they?

We need to have a system set in place for kids who can really make something of themselves athletically without tarnishing our educational institutions. It's probably a dream that will never come true, but many new ways of society had to start with a dream.

Tommy, it amazes me how you guys come after me for caring about injustice. As you and Villy pointed out, there is injustice in Calcutta, Malaysia, Farsi, China, but ALSO Dafur, Cambodia, Palestine and other remote places. But there are also injustices on this American soil a place its not supposed to happen. CHARITY should begin at home. And since Derrick Rose is plastered on the front page of the Times, I thought it might be appropriate to comment on it in this venue. And since we were talking about the Bulls I also thought it was in context of the conversation. Forgive me for listening to SPORTS RADIO and then making a comment in the blog??? Gentlemen we would all be better served to not judge and chop eachother's comments to pieces. Tell me what you think and WHY. Tell me why you have such a distaste for someone or something, but also be prepared to say why you don't feel that way about something or someone else. Try being impartial, fair and balanced.

I dont have a chip on my shoulder. I don't think it was fair for Rose to cheat, but I understand why he did it. I also acknowledged others who do it because it is an American problem. But that is just not good enough for some of you. ROSE alone is to be villified to the proportion of an entire page of press - and I simply beg to know why you might think that is fair. I mean if we can see the injustice all the way around the world - surely you can answer that honestly and fair. I don't even like the guys on the SCORE most of the time, but they got balls enough to call out racism and bias when they see it. AND THEY GET PAID TO SPEW OUT PC STATEMENTS adnauseum. What books would you suggest would be better than that Villy? Because if they have no truth in them - they are all worthless.

Villano I applaud your wife's accomplishment and to be honest wish more people were like her. I am one of those that believe if you live in this country you should learn to speak it's primary language if for no other reason than making things easier on yourself to understand and communicate. Now as far as Derrick Rose is concerned, my complaint is that when he talks he doesn't open his mouth and speak up, he mumbles. Now he wouldn't be the first person that feels comfortable in the spot light during a game but didn't feel comfortable one on one infront of a camera. But now let's also be honest here. Interviews going into half time and at the end of a game are filled with the same stupid questions. Just once I would like to hear a player that was just asked "what adjustments did you make during half time to be able to come back and win this game" answer the question with..." well we were really pissed about how we played in the first half so we just came out in the second half and beat the s**t out of them".

Stu, I appreciated your response and your point is well taken. Also was nice to know I could make you laugh. At times I do like to add a little color to my comments without making color an issue. Usually it's in an effort to get a rise out of keith or culzie LOL

"Do you honestly think that players who grew up in the rural areas during the 20s thru the 50s were educated?"

A question from the completely insane...the players who played in the 20s-50s not only were better educated, and went to war during their PRO careers, but they had to work multiple jobs during the off-season to make ends meet.

Can you imagine if the NBA players today had to work other jobs? What could they possibly do?

Bill Bradley where have you gone?

"Mark, it's great that your wife speaks english better than most african american players do. But I'm sure that your wife has not lost her accent. I was told and I've seen for a fact that when a person migrate here from another country after their 20s they are unable to lose their accent. And truth be told there are probably people who don't like Russians who hate a person's accent for not being American."

First of all let's understand the differnce between having an accent, and being functionally illiterate in the language you're attempting to speak.

While it's well understood that it is damn near impossible to lose the accent of one's native tongue when a person immigrates to another country after the age of 17 or 18, it is still possible to speak a new language perfectly if a person is willing to take the time to actually learn it.

What I am talking about with Rose has nothing whatsoever to do with any accent or South Side Slang. Something like that is no more relavant than the accent of someone from Boston or South Carolina.

What I am talking about is the fact that Rose has the vocabulary of a fifth grader, and I'ver heard him speak at length on numerous sports talk shows. It's almost painful.

It's one thing to speak with an accent, but quite another to murder the language in which you are speaking due to a fundamental lack of eduaction.

So let's not steer this conversation in a direction that I never intended, because I speak and understand the language quite well.

William thank you for clearing up the fact that you had basically combined comments from me and Mark together and tried to make clear just what you had a problem with. I can assure you that i for one hate when race becomes in an issue. If you recall in my earlier post I said that cheating was not a black issue but a national issue and listed JFK, RFK and Teddy Kennedy among some of the more famous cheaters. I could have included G.W Bush but I figured he had enough ink the past 8 years. In the 30 years I spent in the steel mill I worked with and socialized with just about every ethnic group you can name in the N.W. Indiana/Chicagoland area. I have been to social events VP's, CEO's and doctors and lawyers but I have also been to social events bikers and church groups(black and white). I sang at a co-workers funeral with an all black choir(by request) and when my wife passed away the minister that performed the funeralceremony was black, a very close friend of mine and believe me there was a few comments from a minority of small minded people. I believe in accepting people for who they are and not what they are so please try to keep me seperate from those who may make inflamatory racial comments. Thank you.

By Villano on May 31, 2009 7:13 PM - Honest Post. You are right about Rose, but do you feel that way about others who can't speak properly across the board??? See thats my only problem. We talk about a thing like literacy - ONLY - in context of ROSE and not one of those muttering dazed hockey players. Just because a person can "talk white", don't mean they are educated or vice versa. An education and intelligence is measured in different ways. Tupac was as street as they come, but was profound and brilliant (and I hate most rap). There are many layers to people that are underneath their broken or muttered English. In the end, it doesn't matter if you can speak English like Frasier if you are a complete jerk or racist inside. Rose can communicate well enough to understand complex offensive and defensive scemes. He is not MIT material, but a humble nice guy who can ball. Bulls need more of his kind instead of Niles and Fraier type players.

RPK - YES! ABSOLUTELY. THANK YOU.

Whoever said that Hispanics need to learn our language is absolutely correct. Its unfair to every other nationality. English. I don't care if its broken or chopped up...ENGLISH.

Im gonna call BS on your Keith.

There is NO WAY IN H*LL that that Lobster question exsists. It has never existed and never will. There is NO CHANCE IN THE WHOLE F ING UNIVERSE...that there is a question about where you buy Lobster Tails from.

I cant even believe you are that gullable.

Im not saying the SAT has issues, and to be honest, I didnt crush the SAT. I got a 1240. But I got a 26 on my ACT (first try).

Anyways....stop making stuff up...please...its killing your credibility.

Mark...I bet your wife would ace the SAT too...

Thats what always amazed me..

I have friends from the Phillipeans and Poland and Nigeria who come here with NOTHING and in 1 generation they have learned the American system, mastered the language and figured out how to right their family ship.

They are some of the PROUDEST AMERICANS i know....and why? Because they appreciate the "CHANCE" that they have been given by being allowed to live in the greatest country in the history of mankind.

They get into Colleges, they get good jobs, most times, when their parents had to work Blue Collar or NO COLLAR jobs to get their kids into College or what have you. They are ASIAN, WHITE, BLACK...whatever...but they come to America ON A MISSION.

Now, juxtapost those parents with someone like William or Keith....

who instead of taking the BULL by the HORNS...and grasping at the CHANCE OF A LIFETIME possible the CHANCE OF ALL HUMAN KIND....that is to grow up and live in the United States of America...

and instead of taking that chance and making something out of it, they spend 3-4-5 generations CRYING ABOUT THE UNFAIRNESS...and playing the BLAME GAME...and sticking your hand out soooooo far, that it actually goes into the pockets of the hard workers...

now....juxtapost those two types of people, and tell me, what kind of family is going to get ahead? and which one is going to struggle?

Hows that for "Its starts in the home"?

and...before Keith or WRD goes on and spouts off their life's resume'....let me be clear...i am not saying YOU GUYS ARENT GOOD PARENTS OR HARD WORKERS...I am saying...if you take the ATTITUDES of you guys...(based on all the things you said here) and then took the attitude of a Nigerian Born immigrant who comes to the USA with a work ethic that embarrasses most around them....

you tell me...who's child is most likely to get ahead in our system?

By Tim Little on June 1, 2009 12:39 AM - That's beautiful. I picture you as Johnny Cash or Elroy from the Blues Brother now.

That's "EXPERIENCE" talking. Those guys on the SCORE - Mike Mulligan and Brian Hanley might have gotten the question from back when they were in highschool. Maybe the context was about a tail vs a lobster, or I might have misquoted them??? I believe MOST people would have chosen MAINE instead of Africa, which was the point. But they spoke to their experience, and as mature, white, articulate, educated sports media personalities, I surely thought what they had to say would hold some weight with FCP'ers. And you better believe I set up a straw man to see if some would disagree simply because it appeared that the opinion came from "KEITH". Tim, this in no way was aimed at you - but I knew exactly who would start PERSONAL attacks - instead of bringing up facts and points or their OWN experiences, opinions and thoughts. But for the record, do you think that such tests are biased?

I also hate racism, and that is why I speak up when it rears its ugly head. Even subtle overtones. I don't like bullies or injustice either, of any kind towards any people or a person. I read somewhere that injustice happens when good men do and say NOTHING. I have read many things (contrary to popular opinion) - and experienced a lot. And even a radio host can make a point that reveals a prevalent social malady. And what I "know" is that experts can back up what they said about these "tests" with studies. Bias comes in many forms and is not just about color, but gender and many other categories.

Keith I'm aware that you did not aim any of your comments towards me. Like i said at times I like to be a little colorful just to get a rise out of you and culzie. I Thought perhaps you might get a chuckle from the Colonel Sanders, Uncle jesse and Fred Sanford refrences that's why I directed that comment to you. By the way the majority of my 30 years in the steel mill I was responsible for either procuring, mixing or delivering the scrap metals to the furnaces. Some of the guys referred to me as Sanford and others called me Radar O'reily because I managed to obtain scrap metals containing hi nickle content when others failed and would never reveal my source or methods. By the way I'm a little more Johnny Cash Than Elroy Blues but either visual is cool.

Did any of you read Sunday's May-31-2009 newspapers? The Sun-Times or the cross-town rival paper? Please do.

There is a BIG, HUGE heading and story elaborating about politicos giving scholarships to the well-to-do. Also, how the universities are pressured by the politicos to give scholarships to those who parents have annual incomes of over $150,000 a year.

I might not agree with how KLS composed his opinion, but he is NOT lying about how those who have the most, continuously take from those who have the least. And then look down their noses at the same people and make outrageous statements when an individual succeeds in spite of the racial barriers set up.

I do believe Momma Rose would love for her son Derrick to be a physicist, chemist, lawyer, doctor, accountant or in another profession. She realized when Derrick bounced the basketball all the time in the house and broke her little knick-knacks that he was not college material. BUT THAT DIDN'T KEEP HER FROM PRAYING, "LORD, PLEASE ALLOW MY SON TO BE GOOD AT SOMETHING SO HE CAN TAKE CARE OF HIMSELF!!"

GOD gave D.Rose athletic ability and enough HUMBLENESS to NOT behave boastfully and be successful as a NBA player. THE GOOD LORD GAVE HIM THIS!!

Now people commenting here can continue the back and forth about Maine, Lobster, Africa and Lobster Tails. And speaking on culturally bias tests, and whether some people from other countries speak better Engish than those who are native born.

In the summation of it all, D.Rose can fly to Africa or have ship from the Motherland cases of Lobster. Also, when playing on the East coast, simply drive up to Maine or have sent down to the hotel where he is staying and eat until his hearth is content.

D.Rose made it in spite of his alleged limitations in being an intellectual! HE MADE IT!!

That is what counts!!

And to end this post - WHO IN HERE THINKS MICHEAL PHELPS IS A FREAKING EINSTEIN!? Have any paid close attention to his dialect or diction? And his mother is a school teacher! Phelps is good at swimming! Period!

Culzie - You fact-check everything, go to the score or call and ask the hosts about last Friday's conversation and the question: CALL US AT 312-644-6767TEXT US AT 67011E-MAIL US AT: MULLYHANLEY@YAHOO.COM -ROCKm&h crew.

Culzie I have been trying to get you to understand the effects of psychological conditioning for some time now. African Americans have been conditioned - through slavery 400 years. I know that's impossible to believe, but its true. Its the answer to why would an abused woman continue to go back to her abuser, why she remains silent, why she wont just leave or fight back. PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITIONING. Culzie you have seen projects and jails and the dark misery of the ghetto. Who in their RIGHT MIND would choose to live and behave that way? A PEOPLE programmed to thats who. And who would devise and encourage that? An EVIL people. NOT all blacks function this ways as a people, but the misery you see is systemic. And most of us rise up and out of the effects of it, but how do you shake off - WHO YOU HAVE BEEN and ARE to an extent. How do you acclimate to something you are not - and have been told and shown - doesn't WANT YOU! And sometimes its something you don't really like. Many blacks looked at Barack's journey and said many times "I couldn't pay the price". Not the school or the work, but go and be something where you are NOT welcomed. What do you do when you wake up and you are NOT Barack, Jordan, Tiger or Oprah? You be the best you can be - GIVEN the circumstances.

So, Ends justify means? Any means necessary type stuff right Momma Rose?

This can go on forever and you are never going to change anyone's mind about the way they feel or what they believe.
From my own personal experience.... I am a white guy who grew up in a black neighborhood on the West side of Chicago.
When I graduated from the 8th grade to go to high school there were 4 white kids, including myself, and 197 blacks in my graduating class.
I finished 2nd in the entire 8th grade class as far as test scores go.
My English level was 11.5 and my Math level was 11.0 which is to say that it was the same as a high school Junior.
The only other kid to have a higher grade point average than I did was.... white!
Same class rooms as the rest of the other 200 students.
Same textbooks.
Same teachers.
Same desks.
Same long walk in the cold to get there by 8:00 every day.
We were not given a different test with questions that fit into our culture or our heritage.
So how and why did this happen?

Because the other students did not give a damn about their education and their parents did not care either.
It was all a joke to them.
The guys wanted to be just like the gang banging fool standing on the corner all day long while other people his age were at work or continuing their education.
The girls wanted to have a baby before they could even finish their first year of high school just like their mom, their sister, their Aunt....
That was their goal.
A community (and I use that word loosely) based on stupidity, violence, short sightedness, apathy and finger pointing.

This is not something that I saw on television.
I did not hear about it on 670 the Score.
I did not get this from a movie I saw.
I was there. I lived it. I saw it first hand every day for years and there is no mystery to it at all.
No effort... no results... no future…. and no one’s fault but your own.

If someone chooses to be an idiot in life then deal with the consciences.

Culzie - reach for it, because its there. Nobody is working harder than blacks in America, because there are a lot of folks still supervising and making SURE not one of them EVER catches a break or gets anything without a hassle, hard time, tears and sweat! We are the ONLY race documented as SLAVES (free hard workers), but monikered and stigmatized as lazy. That alone can drive one insane. We have blood spilled all over the soil working and fighting for the Red, White and Blue. But who gets REPARATIONS??? Any and everyone but those......DESCENDANTS OF SLAVES.

Friend of Momma ROSE, somebody needs to get you an offering!!! You are absolutely correct! When I think of where D-Rose could be and where he is, it makes me truly humbled. He's gotten further with his ability than I have!!! His mother lived to see her son cross over into the promised land and the Roses can buy me 100 times over. My mother died penniless after raising 7 children - the best she knew how, as a maid her entire life. And I passed ALL of those biased tests and can speak pretty good English, but that never afforded her anything that she could brag about. I thank you for your post!

Keith - as I said before...I think you make ridiculous statements to get a reaction. You have no interest in what other people think. You're more interested in these over-the-top generalizations that THANKFULLY don't represent all black peoples' view.

How do I know that as a white person? I work every day with black people...a few I have beers fairly often when we bring out every topic imaginable - no holds barred.

No...I'm at the point where I actually feel sorry for you. Not the least of which is using a sports blog to bring out this nonsense.

Now...how about those Sox...

"Mark...I bet your wife would ace the SAT too...

Thats what always amazed me.."

To tell you the truth, my wife makes me look stupid. (not that it's all that difficult)

How she wound up with a dummy like me, I'll never figure out.

She's an artist, a first class professional taylor, (she makes her own original designs) and she reads entire books in the time it takes me to go through a magazine, (albiet, in her own Cyrilic alphabet).

I've always considered myself quite the chef, and Galina didn't know the stove from the fridge when she came here, but now her cooking puts mine to shame. She's studied Tai Chi for years, practices yoga almost every day, and meditates for hours.

And I wish I had a little bit of whatever it is that makes her tick.

Culzie I still remember the lame ass story about you dropping your black friend off in the ghetto and he got teased about wanting an education. Why didn't they tease you I asked. People sitting on a street corner teased the brain from the neighborhood but not the outsider. Those guys you saw on the street corner do not represent the whole community. That's all you saw because that's all you want to see. You can't just watch the news and say "oh, that's why those guys are like that". Phil I'm glad that you prospered well among a bunch of people who didn't do well in school. I had one white class mate in High school and he stayed blowed(High) all the time. He even dropped out. Who will you blame for that? He wasn't pressured. He was accepted because he grew up in the neighborhood since grade school. Plain and simple, this kid didn't care because maybe his home life wasn't that great. Maybe his parents didn't instill in him a desire to be a great student. Did I sit there and say that poor white people are lazy and get high because the other William did those things? Hell, naw. And I have never seen where Keith or myself have said that the things we usually end up arguing about was right or wrong. We ask why don't people make a similar stink about things that are just as bad. Maybe our distrust and dislike for certain topics stem from the fact that some people see only injustices that black people do when there are equal injustices out there. Whenever we add to a topic that veered over to race all you guys see are angry black men. I'm not ever angry when I post. I run on because I'm being thoughful. You can not think when you are angry. When I see Keith's post and my own posts I see articulate gentlemen. I don't see slang thrown around. I see a lot of good natured posts from Keith. He's a joker for the most part. I see him attack the subject of race because for him and myself it's not a situation that we can just jump in and back out and then go about our day. We live with some biASS-ness almost every waking moment. The guy who took the person's order who came in after me.. What was that about? The suburban cop who does a doubletake and spin his car around to follow me.. why didn't he get the guy who passed me like I was standing still? You have to have a levelhead to deal with those situations. If you haven't had it chances are you are going to jail. You can sit around and say that we are paranoid but it happens too many times to people I know who don't look for it at all. I leave my house correct everday. I don't have expired plates nor do I blast music. My insurance is current and I know that if I'm stopped that the cop better be correct. Now another thing I'd like to address are you guys who take every chance to attack someone's post just because you don't like them. I'm not saying disagree.. I'm saying dislike. I don't like a lot of guys but I only respond to their posts if it seems directed at me or offends me. The name used to be at the bottom and you had to read the whole thing before you knew who wrote it. When you see my name.. do me a favor and skip my stuff, because I will call you fellas out in a minute. It's like you say to yourself that you're gonna read it so you can get in a tizzy with me. Don't you have a life? The topic waay back in early May? I vacated that subject and never went back to see what anyone wrote about me because I don't care what you think about me. I find personal attacks humorous because you boost my ego. Obviously I'm doing something right to have haters. If you haven't walked in my shoes don't tell me how I'm living and what I've seen. You come off as petty when you do that. Like my freind Keith says; tell us your ideas on a topic not what you think of ours.

Oh and I forgot you for a second Tommy. Who says that players from those eras could read? Where does it say that? You just assume they did because you never gave any other thought to it. Now you mention how they went to war during their playing careers but you do know that minorities were not allowed to play during those times so you can't say what they would've had to do. Black men have fought in wars of this country when we were allowed to carry weapons. And fought valiantly. It would've been nice to be allowed to get in the pros during those times in the first place so we can see what black players would've had to do to make ends meet. Now I see who is insane. You see what these players are doing now as a travesty but I see a bigger travesty that occurred before all that. Whose travesty is worse? Why are there less white players in the NBA and less black players in MLB? Because some people don't have a desire to play certain sports. Neither race is less talented in either sport, they just don't have the same desire to make a career out of it. If you have DESIRE and talent it will get you that career in the long run. And the main reason so many kids from the hood want to be an NBA player is because all you need is one ball. Most innercity high schools have eliminated most sports. You can't find 9 mitts to play baseball. One basketball goes a long way.

Newsflash Tommy. There is no way in the world your beer-brother-buddies is coming clean with you on every topic. Guys I work with and people I was in the Army with didn't get my full opinion because sometimes it leads to deeper conversations that don't heal anything. If you said Bill Bradley where have you gone as a statement your buddies would be offended. You're sounding like Edith singing with her husband about those were the days. Give you an example as how you won't get the full dope: you tell your friends that you don't think that racism exists and then you ask him if he believes it does. You know what he would say? No for you benefit. Why? Because you've already made up your mind and he knows that you are gonna piss him off if he continues. You will try your darnest to convince him and that will piss him off even more. That's what happens when friends want to stay friends. He knows that he can't be truthful. By making that statement about what a player might not be able to do if he was forced to shows a little narrow-mindedness. You act like players wouldn't be able to get a job. I'm sure they would sell stuff like cars just like they sell shoes. Why do you think they make more shilling over playing. They would sell their time. That's what players did to suppliment incomes. Someone would hire a player to get admirers to come in and buy cars. But I'm sure you knew that...just because. Who is going to argue with that? You told me that everyone was better educated and you didn't quote a book or directed me to www.diddly.com You just knew. I'm just meeting you and I already see that you can't be swayed. Your friends know that too, hence the abbreviated conversations. Think I'm wrong? Try another type of truth serum..

Does racism exixt? Ofcourse it does and not just in this country and not just regarding blacks although racism where blacks are concerned is unique to this country. One of the reasons it is so hard to stamp out is because there are still to many people on BOTH sides that stereotype the entire race they disdain and do not want to give individual credit. Much of this is due to (as keith says) mental conditioning or more appropriately predjudicial upbringing and that is not limited to one side or the other.
Those of you that have already posted novel lenth comments I hope you'll indulge me here a little since i don't normaly submit posts the length of Gone with the Wind.
If I recall the year correctly it was 1988 and all the supervisors where I was working were required to attend a 2 day seminar on "Diversity Training". Supervisory ranks where I worked even back then were a rather diverse group that included men and women of varying ages and ethnic backgrounds. The seminar was condusted by a blck man in his mid-fifties ( I wish I could remember his name but it escapes me) and a white woman in her forties. To open the seminar the man started at one side of the room ( we were seated at tables arranged in a U shape and he and the woman were seated at a table at the open end of the U) and began to ask each individual if they predjudiced. He challenged each white person that said they were not and proceded to prove that they in fact were. When he got to me I responded by telling him that everyone has some predjudices including him whether they want to admit it or not. Those predjudices may or maynot include race but for anyone to say they are not predjudiced is a lie. That ended that discussion even though there were still 3 people he had not gotten to yet. Later in the afternoon came the "400 years of opression" comment. I immediately asked if I might say something and he yeilded the floor to me. I stood up and said " Sir with all due respect I will readily agree that African Americans have been at best porrly treated in this country but neither you or I are 400 years old and I personally had no hand in such treatment. Now if you and I can't respect one another for what we are here today as individuals without regard for transgressions of our ancestors how do you expect to make any advancement in ending racism? Sir by envoking 400 years of opression instead of focusing on what is important here today and how do we bring about changes in attitude I can assure you that what you have done is fire up the emotions of the black peolpe that are in this room and turned off the majority of the other ethnic groups and the women in here are wondering if and when this discussion group is going to focus on the treatment of women in the work place." The entire group stood up and applauded and when they settled down the man said it was a good time to take a 15 minute break while he digested what I said and he would address it when we returned. As we filed out of the room he asked me stay for a minute. He said he'd been doing these seminars for several years and no one had ever challenged him the way i just had and he respewcted and appreciated my input. When we returned to the room he told the group I had made a valid point and the balance of the day and the next day would be spent on how to go about changing attitudes in the work place.

William - they are self-confident, smart, educated and can think for themselves. I can understand how you cannot relate.

This is 2009...try to remember that.

I love how WRD tells me to focus on my own thoughts, and then calls one of my stories "lame a**"

I like you Willy, (not hate), but seriously, you are the king of hipocricy.

Now, with that being said, your question is a good one. I do not know why my point gaurds neighborhood pals didnt pick on me. I wasnt seeing what I wanted to, I was seeing what was. It just struck me as a harsh reality to deal with, if he had to walk that gauntlet to get to class every day. I tend to believe that misery loves company, and James represented someone who wasnt just giving in to the street life and was trying to use his talents to get ahead. I seem to remember some of you "cherishing" this attitude. Now all of a sudden, its one of my old stories or one of my old pals, and its "Lame Ass". OK, I see how it is.

Keith...fact check...This country is barely 400 years old. Slavery ended 200 years ago. My Irish decendants were targeted and systematically oppressed as well, not to the extent as slaves, but a pretty close second. Factory work can be just as toiling and sweat and tears inducing...

Also, there is human trafficking and slavery going on in the USA right NOW. Google it. They are finding drop houses loaded with Smuggled Human Beings on a daily basis here in PHX. They just found a house with 40 people living in it, who were bound and gagged and the skin on their feet was BURNED OFF from them being made to walk through the Sonaran Desert with NO SHOES ON.

Homie...I love you like a brotha, but you need to open your eyes up!

Phil - I like your post. Thank you for actually posting something of YOUR experience - (note to others). But I am going to still challenge you to understand that if you went to another country - like China and was raised with their children do you think you would have come out on top? My question speaks to the CULTURE and COUNTRY. It is a given that if you are white and in America you are going to come out of top. Your family structure has been disintegrated. Everyone around you isn't immersed in negativity. For you and your kind Milk and Honey is a birthright. This culture has a lot to do with it. Ask youself - why these same things never translate to sports like Football, Basketball and Boxing? And I KNOW a lot of folks are going to hate that, but I am speaking about what STUDIES SHOW. Line up physically - with blacks and see what happens. See PHYSICALLY is where blacks were BRED TO SUCCEED.

Tim Little - your last post was excellent as well. But I have to challenge you also. Because your post is the most dangerous because it was dismissive of 400 years of suffering. You were right about there being a time and place for that discussion - and that meeting was NOT the place and time. But that one situation does not translate over into how you are to look at the entire subject of race relations - and say "that was the past, lets move forward". The danger in this statement is - its really disrespectful to the history of the subject and people it has harmed, and dismissive to the TRUE rememdy. Slavery has effects today on BOTH races, in ways that are so deep and profound you would be amazed. I know that you personally did nothing to advance slavery, but please don't think that it hasn't had effects on you and others. It has. It has driven a lot of the biases that you admit everyone has. Imagine a German saying to a Jew, stop it with the holocaust stuff, wasn't me, and its had no effect on you as a people. And imagine if Hitler's people were still running the country. I hate using that example, but its all I got to paint a picture. I am not indicting anyone, I am asking for understanding. Black

Tommie - You speak as if you are God Almighty. The great and powerful Tommie has spoken. You talk, but not much ever comes out ABOUT THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION. Everything is Keith you... William you... BUT YOU GOT ME WITH THOSE SOX!!!! I lost all control of thought! YES!

Tommy the more you try to dig at me the more you prove that you don't like free thinkers. Guys you work with can see that too. They are giving you what you want. Do you need that liquid courage to hold a conversation with your buddies? Sounds like. And I respect & appreciate your post Tim. Thanks.

WRD you're welcome and thank you, you obviously understood my point where as Keith I believe you missed it so I will lay it out a bit more simply for you. At no time or in any way was i dismissive or disrespectful of black history in this country. My point was that if every time a discussion on moving equal rights forward "400 years of opression" is brought up it sets progress back a step becuase many see that as a ploy to invite feelings of guilt for wrong doings of the past, and become defensive. Now the only thing that has been accomplished is putting up a barrier to open, honest discussion. I will agree that as a whole the black race in this country is still disadvantaged in many ways but every individual in this country has the right and capability to make whatever he or she wants to make of themself. For some the road may be a little steeper to climb but it's worth it in the end. I worked hard for every thing I have and believe me I've had set backs that would break many and yet I have endeavered to perservere. I am proud of what I've accomplished as I am sure you are also and should be. So instead of reminding me of what transpired 400 years ago address what still needs to be done and propose some type of solution. One thing I would love to see is on any application, be it for employment or entry to an institute of higher learning there be no space to fill out for race. In it's place I would put the question....are you an American citizen. I believe that American citizens should given the opportunity for an education ahead of foriegn students, unfortunately there are American students that maybe are borderline college entrants that miss out because a spot was taken by a foriegn student and I believe that is wrong. Ok I'm finished for now and no I'm not running for any public office. Politicians would not like the way I would write up a bill because it would be in simple plain language that could not be open for interpretation or be loaded with loop holes.
The preceding message was paid for by the committee to.....LMAO

Tommie, William - is absolutely right about brothers being unable to keep it real on the job. If its where you work, its just not smart. And its very smart to tell your boss - what they wanna hear, especially in this economic climate. Coming home without a job is not an option. Those brothers are probly lying to you. Not about everything though. They might trully agree about something, but they would never tell you about the thing that would cost them. Even if its just friendship. Last thing you need at work is people whispering about you or thinking something negative. And people with power and influence will use it to hurt you.

We are taught survival skills from day one. I know I was. And it hurts. It hurts to hear your mother tell you to "keep your mouth shut and do what they say", before you go off to school or a attending a social event. And she is addressing you - not because you have a behavior problem but because of who and what you are. Its not just good advice that mama tells you, its a subtle fear-induced suggestion that says "your opinions or actions" might have negative consequences. It's hard to explain, but its a negative PASSIVENESS that erodes self-confidence and trust. And of course you being a young smart, new-age open minded "articulate" black person - simply dismiss your mother's advice as Ignorance and Slave mentality (actually pitty her), until the day that your New Ideas/Trust costs you, and that day surely comes as reliable as the sun rises over the horizon. It comes and shocks you back into your place like a cultural stun-gun. You heal, and count it as one BAD apple until it happens enough times that you remember your mothers words and begin to UNDERSTAND. And the real bad ones know how to give you that disapproving eye that makes you feel subhuman. They put you in your place in a way that weakens your preconceive perception and stains your soul. And you will unconsciously perpetuate that fear to the next generation if you are not very careful. I have a son and daughter and I want them to be free of the negativity and hurt that I have experienced (you wouldn't believe it). And I don't just want them to have a ton of money to insulate them from it. I want "IT" to die so that they can be free and avoid it. There is nothing more beautiful than watching two children of different backgrounds playing together. Having fun and enjoying the peace, joy and trust of innocence.

Tim - Awesome post and some great food for thought. In the interest of moving forward you simply cannot remain in the past. But on the other hand, you cannot move forward without understanding where you have come from.

Now thats an application I would love to see also.

Well Tim, you got my vote!

Sorry Keith but my birthright had no Milk and Honey in it.
That is a myth that people who are not white believe in and it is no better than any other racial stereotype.
If my birthright stated that I would have it easy in life then I must have missed the fine print.
My father and his father and his father before him must have missed that little detail too.

To say that we have it easy and are given everything on silver platter in this country is far from the truth.
It is easy to say that someone cannot fully understand what your life is like unless they are one of you and then turn around and make a blanket statement about someone else.
That is hypocrisy.
Not only do we have to deal with crappy jobs, frozen wages, rising prices, poor schools and yes, even bad neighborhoods, we also get to have just about every other race in this country pointing the finger at us for their own short comings and faults.
Like we don’t have our own lives to live, our own children to raise….

If I don't get a loan or a job that I applied for.... well too bad for me. I have to deal with it and move on.
If I can't afford the house that I wanted then I have to reset my goals on something else. There is no one to point a finger at for me.
No one to blame or maybe even file a lawsuit against.
My daughter gets no special grant for college and there is no such thing as a quota saying that her school must have a certain percentage of people just like her enrolled.

Do you believe that I survived living in Austin for 12 years because of my skin color gave me a special birthright?
You want to talk about being black and living and working among whites….. that is nothing compared to what I had to deal with every single day.
My "Birthright" made me a target walking down the street.
I made it because I refused to give in to a stupid way of life and that same choice was available for the rest of the people that lived there as well.
If they really wanted to break the cycle then there is no room for excuses and self-pity.

There is no invisible man or secret gang plotting your life for you.

William...stop yourself - you drew first blood going at my views on this topic - no problem with that. Don't get put off by me coming back at you.

Yeah - I need a few beers to talk about nonsense in the workplace with co-workers who happen to be black - sounds like you think all white people do to talk to someone different.
You're probably right - they may not spill it all but I hear the unpleasant stories about getting pulled over for no reason..other than their color. It must suck. I also hear their views on getting lumped in with people who have no interest in achieving or taking responsibility for raising their kids the right way. I'll leave it at that - I value their friendship and our "truth serum" gatherings too much to put all of it out here.
Anyway, if I read an interesting blog, I'll comment. If I read a post that I think is complete BS, I'll say as much. Isn't that the point?

Tommy, when did I draw first blood? You made a remark about what I said about players during the 20s thru the 50s being educated. You did that. I didn't respond to anything you said prior to that. You even said that what I said was insane. Yeah, sounds like Rambo to me. And Culzie again I was responding to you saying that I or Keith will spout out our life's resume. You spout out as well. And you do it to convey a message. I brought that one back up because it had a point to it. Those guys on the street didn't victimize you. Why not? Because they don't care about your presense in their neighborhood. They gave him a hard time because what he does hurt them more than what you will do. Those 5 or 6 guys on the block isn't everyone on the block. I have never cherished that attitude. And I can't remember anyone else doing that either. Dude, one of the proudest moments in my life was when my son won the spelling Bee for his school on the northside. And his school with one of the best mix of nationalities we have in Chicago. Growing up my favorite person before Walter Payton was Easy Reader from Electric company. I've never hung out and the guys I grew up with didn't go to jail. If I ever said why people do stupid things it didn't come from being a part of it and understanding them. don't look at the kids growing up now in the part of town I grew up in and think that I came from where they are at this moment. I'm not a hood rat or anything like that. My youngest brother just opened one of the most successful and enterprising restaurants in Lake County because we didn't come from what you think we all are from. Go to mouthpiecesports.com and check out Jason Mckie's Dude revue and that's my brother. And check out the way he speaks so well.

Phil - I am not saying that every white person is going to find a pot of gold like a leprechan. I am saying that the system is set up for them to succeed. And they have been conditioned - positively and blacks negatively. You might not think that all the things that make you proud of in America - didn't reinforce your self-esteem, but it does whether outright or subliminaly. And things like the Evening News and that ENTIRE page of a young black athlete who "allegedly" cheated to get ahead - conversely hurts a black person's self-esteem. All of these little subtle things lift one up and tears another down and a LOT of it is done on purpose with malice. I took a psych class once and saw the demonstration about the black girl and the two dolls. The black girl refused the black doll because she said "the white one was better" (and of course they were identical). Now where did she get that idea from? Being lazy and making bad choices right? She got the education almost every black child gets. When I saw that demonstration all cold, scientific and clinical, it was as if someone was sqeezing my heart with their hands. A thing like that effects and impacts the world.

Phil, all I am doing is trying to get people to understand. I truly mean no personal harm, or doubt that you are nothing more than what you have stated. I know it feels like I am personally making you accountable, but I am not. I'm providing a different perspective.

Now Rose has been vindicated by Memphis, but lets see the Sun Time's response (great damage has been done).

I wish I was like William, I grew up in Chicago, in the ghetto. Poor and unexposed. And I am still here. That alone educates William over me. He expects things like good roads and good schools. My family's generations have not caught up to Williams's. It takes time for a generation to overcome that programming and elevate their thinking and actions. But I am a long way off from being some stereotype. That is what Roses' moms can take pride in. To most blacks in Chicago, he's a celebrity and a great success. He is one of the few images we know. The true successful people never get a Full Page of the Sun Times. The images that blacks need to really see.

William..i said "i thought you cherished the "at any costs to succeed" not the chillen on the street corner attitude. just to be clear.

Keith...you amaze me.

You cant possibly believe this statement you just made...

"It is a given that if you are white and in America you are going to come out of top. Your family structure has been disintegrated. Everyone around you isn't immersed in negativity. For you and your kind Milk and Honey is a birthright."

I need a week off to just digest this turd sandwich!!!

Culzie -

YOU have stated that laws have been passed to help minorities. Well they certainly werent passed to put minorities in FRONT. They were passed to "level the playing field". MANY Americans thought what was going on was UNFAIR and UNEQUAL, so badly in fact that they had to PASS legislation - to help make things right. Do you think its fair? Do you think it worked? Does America look the way it should? Did you see all of those Americans CRYING when Obama got elected??? AMERICA has just gotten to the point where a black man could even be elected as president.

And I meant to type "your family structure HASNT been disintigrated".

Milk and Honey should be a birthright to ALL Americans. Isnt this the land of milk and honey? And if it had to be FIXED, then who was tasting most of the milk and honey then???

Now what AMAZES me is that I am getting a response like yours. But then again, it shouldn't amaze me. There are some things that you can only understand - by experience. Racism - is not when the law MAKES one group WAIT, so that the other can catch up - because they have been held back by hatred and evil. Some, in fact a great many of Americans call that JUSTICE. You are privileged and don't even know it - because the system does favor you, but you simply cannot see how.

Its comical and frustrating. Frustrating for you also, because in the same vein - you feel foreigners take advantage of the blessings here where blacks don't and won't because they are lazy or make bad choices. And your impiracle evidence is the success foreigners enjoy and many blacks who have made it inspite of the obstacles. I understand. All I can tell you is that it takes generations to overcome programming/conditioning, and its REAL. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2553348&page=1

Israel was technically the land of "milk and honey" according to Moses.

for those keeping score at home.

Last entry amd then I'm out: I do not subscribe to the at all cost school of thought. My perspective is that we should not be surprised when a person cheats to get ahead. We should not be surprised when someone breaks the rules to get what we want. Again, on our daily scale of life we cheat little by little. If you are running late do you exceed the speed limit to make up time? We all do it. That's why I hate taking the company truck home because it has the company logo and people can call on me if I'm speeding. If I do drive the vehicle I maintain the legal limit thru construction on the expressway which is 45. Do you know how many people I pass within ,say, 20 miles? Not a soul. I would love to just punch it and be like the thousands of people who pass me. There are so many other ways we go over the limit to get what we want. If I ask you to consider another side to a story it's not that I agree with the person it's just that too many times people just cut to the chase and say cliches from the past as if to say that the person will practically burn in hell from being caught. People make decisions without worrying about consequences because they are getting more out the deal sometimes than a person who is following the rules. That goes for a guy who just wants to play basketball without knowing how to spell it. That's goes for a person who is raised poor or from another country that's even more poor who only wants to get as much of that milk and honey as he can. I don't agree with what they do to get whatever it is they want but I am also not blind to why they do it.

Well said Mr.D

WRD I'm in totl agreement with culzie..well said. I thought I was done on this subject also but after Keith's last post I have one last story to tell.
From about 1990 until I moved from the area in 2003 I deer hunted on a farm in North Central Indiana. It was owned by the remaining of 3 black brothers who was the uncle of a guy I worked with. JD (my co-worker) took me out to meet his uncle so that I could ask his permision to hunt his property. The old man, Mr.D was at that time pushing 80. He agreed to allow me to hunt and turned down my offer to give him any of the meat from any deer I might kill because he didn't cook and he didn't think the woman that came in and cooked for him knew how to cook venison. While we sat there that evening talking I noticed what brand of cigarettes he smoked and also noticed that he enjoyed a little Crown Royal in the evening. To show my appreciation just before Christmas every year that iIhunted his property I stopped by his place and gave him a carton of cigarettes and a fifth of Crown Royal for which he was grateful and I would sit with him for awhile and shoot the breeze. Although he had at one time told me his first name I always called him MR. D out of respect. Well one of those visit I asked him if he had lived in Indiana all his. No he was born and raised in Mississippi. I asked him if he'd mind relating to me some of his experience of growing up there during that time. He not only didn't mind but said he'd be happy to tell me and found it refreshing that someone was actually interested instead of dismissing it as just another disgruntled old black man from the south. And believe me he was anything but disgruntled. He told me stories that were sad and appalling and others that were cute and comical. But what struck me the most was when he said that too many young black kids today don't have a clue what injustice is and they do their race harm with some of the things they do. Rather than trying to elevate the race through applying what God gave them to become productive members of the community they look for easy road and play right into the hands of those that want to stereotype the race making it harder on those that do apply themselves. He said that pissed him off more than anything. He said he had another nephew that was worthless and did nothing but spout off about opression and how he couldn't get anywhere because he was black. He told his nephew to quit blaming everyone that noone was going to give him anything in this world he had to go out, apply himself and earn it.
I not only respect but I admire that man for his perserverence and the richness of attitude he has. There is a man that lived in one of the most turbulent areas during some of the most turbulent times and used his experiences to better himself. He won't become a household name or receive any humanitarian awards but as far as I'm concerned he is one of the people that make this country great.

Well Said Mr.L

I thank everyone for their thoughts and contributions to this very healthy conversation. Its gotten us absolutely nowhere, but at least we were able to have the conversation without diving into the dumpster (for the most part). Its not easy to reveal yourself or attempt to "communicate". Especially for men. And by communicate I mean get the other person to understand what you are saying. If there is no mutual understanding - there has been no communication. This is the reason a lot of marriages don't make it. Not that there wasn't a lot of talking, arguing, or effort, but communication.

Now I may be done with the subject but I have to tell you Tim that I totally loved that story. My father ,who did not raise me, is 75 tries to give me advise from time to time and it's tinged with a little hatred and I don't like that. And the hatred is a little about everybody I might add. In the presense of my son,once , he used the derogatory "h" word to describe white people and my son laughed. I asked him later why he laughed and he said he didn't know people really used that word. He said it didn't sound real. Evidently I've never uttered anything like that. I've raised my son not to make excuses and he goes to a predominately white school and I constantly get on him about what he represents. I remind him that when I was in the army I dealt with a lot of BS but kept it together because for some people I was the first black person they encountered and they would use what I did to either disregard a negative belief or confirm it. I can't shoulder the burdens of an entire race. But when bad things happen I'm embarrassed that it's a black person more than anything because it fuels the negative thoughts about us. Okay. Now, absolutely, positively, I'm done and thanks.

William - let me be clear, I think that people struggle with what they think a level playing field is. Some blacks have arrived to where they can compete academically and corporately. But even they have to have those laws to help them get a chance to line up in the race. All I am asking for is the racial make up to reflect business, neighborhood, politics and every spectrum of society equally/proportionately according to census - including the prison systems. That is what a level playing field provides.

Accountability is right, but its almost futile - where justice is concerned. What happens in black neighborhoods, schools, homes, justice system, etc is deplorable and SYSTEMIC. One is only left to do the best he or she can until the PEOPLE outlive and overcome programming - and that will take decades for most. We have a thin layer of folks who have elevated themselves above/beyond their generational conditioning. We need time - and lots of money (exposure changes things quickly). Most don't even know that there is an entire system working against them from day one. They know about racism but not the depth of conditioning. But there is hope. William you are 100% correct to have a positive and progressive attitude and outlook. It shows that you have broken free of that conditioning. But try understand where your father is coming from and imagine some of the things he has endured that have influenced his behavior/attitude. It took the LORD to heal me. And that is what ALL men need. The Lord heals completely and teaches men what they don't know - how to LOVE.

Its tough to succeed in this world period, but make no bones about it, we know who has an advantage and who has a stark disadvantage. That is all I am saying. Take a good look at who is successful in the USA - its right on par with the list of those who have presided in the whitehouse - from George Washington to Barack Obama. And some will tell you that is fair. A lot believe that even Barack is not good enough to do the job that Bush had.

Keith, obviously you're still a work in progress and not yet completely healed because there is still some bitterness in your posts. Now I'm not going to get into a discussion about religion because that can be as if not more volatile as race and I doubt that you would like or appreciate my views. One thing you are correct about however is that change occurs over generations. I was raised by an Archie Bunker prototype which really make me a bit of a mystery when it comes to my attitude on many things. The only explanation I have is that I have never taken things told me as gospel, I challenge almost everything I fail to see as right or logical. Ofcourse that ment I spent quite bit of time at odds with my father but I believe I'm better off for being inquisitive rather than accepting. WRD sounds very much like the land owner I told you about in my previous post. He can acknowledge the events of the past, understands and knows how we have arrived to where we are and wants to continue to move forward.
One thing I believe that needs to change is how things are taught in our scholl systems.Over the past twenty years or so I started to do some research on history and found out that some of the things I was taught in school was incomplete and at times inaccurate and yes it was also biased. We were taught that the Civil War was a war fought over slavery but the real issue was a tax the Northern States wanted to place on slave owners because they felt there was an unfair advantage by those who owned "free labor". Yes there were those abolisinists that wanted to end slavery but the initial intent was to tax slave owners not to free slaves. Sherman's march to the sea was not the total destruction of everything in his path as it was described to me in high school. He did not burn down the entire city of Atlanta or any other entire town. He detroyed military targets along his route such as ammo depots and railroads. Yes he looted farms and houses along the way in order to feed his army but that nothing new to warfare. I understand that there is some time constraints involved in how much can be taught in our schools but more attention needs to be paid to the accuracy and importance of what is taught and U.S History should be taught in much earlier grades than it is presently.

Tim, I am a work in progress. Not done until the Lord says "well done my good and faithful servant". Don't think I don't want to move on and forward. I do, but I know that is not possible without exposing the wound to sunlight and letting it heal. Admitting that there is a problem is always the first step. The one thing that all enlightened people have in common is their humility and unselfishness from, Mother Theresa to Ghandi, to Dr. King, to Christ. They stood and fought "bitterly" against injustice and especially prejudice and racism, and gave everything they had including their lives - without charge - for someone else. And that is what REAL love is.

English poet Thomas Gray coined the phrase "Ignorance is Bliss", and he was right. The moment the Lord filled my soul, I came out of my ignorance and SELFISHNESS, and began to see myself from God's perspective and I wept and did all I could to change that. I am a sliver of who I was those 20 years ago. I changed, my eyes were opened and my heart changed. I became better in every human relationship. And a strange thing happened after that. The more I studied to become like God, the more wrong and injustice I saw - in myself, others and the world. And that is the fundamental difference between an unregenerated individual and an enlightened believer. People like King and Ghandi became my favorites because my eyes could see them for once and my existence became about more than just me and mine. But sometimes its burdensome to "see". It alienates you.

My mother raised an angry, bitter young man that needed a father (who I never knew). Even she despised me. My anger and selfishness would have destroyed me, but the Lord stepped in and saved me from choking in my own filth. And my mother who passed away in 2006, never was able to smile from the success of a son like Derrick Rose, but she got to see and enjoy the life and love of a regenerated son who gave his ALL to her - because the Lord helped him to see her. And I am thankful to the Lord for EVERY second we shared.

Thank you for both your humility and boldness brother. Praise God.

Keith, you are very complex person...we all are works in progress.

I just think you need to realize that lots of people throughout our nations history "had it rough" and "lived in misery and negativity" and its not exclusive to any one race or color or even social or economic class.

To live is to suffer.

NO ONE HAS A MONOPOLY ON SUFFERING!

http://www.newser.com/story/61467/as-ariz-housing-heads-south-kidnappers-move-in.html

KLTSS...I thought you should see this article...

The Human Trafficking and Sex/Worker Slave trade is alive an well down here in the Border State of AZ.

The stories I read on the daily are seriously horrifying...and the scariest thing about it Keith..is...it could be happening RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO ME.

Culzie - that is awful. I have known about human trafficking for a while. I purchased a DVD called "Human Trafficking" with Donald Sutherland. It was excellent. Liam Neeson's "Taken" is about the same thing. "Human Trafficking" is much more serious and definitely an eye opener. My heart and prayers goes out. This is a HUMAN problem. Not just the sick individuals that prey on the innocent, but the evil people who purchase and use them. And you will find this evil anywhere there are people with money to purchase them. Human misery.

Culzie I understand that other people suffer and have suffered. Not just blacks. When you make that statement it can be miscontrued as - because others suffer - that somehow Slavery is to be dismissed and should be forgotten. Slavery was akin to genocide and has lasting psychological/social effects which explain why blacks struggle with a traditional family values. Its going to take generations to overcome that mentality, and its also going to take generations for those that are prejudiced/priviledged to renew their minds also. These are social sicknesses.

Those Mexicans who are being trafficked in Arizona are being treated horrible. But even they have a country and traditions of who and what they are. They have a foundation to call upon that goes back thousands of years. Any people is only as civil and enlightened as their ancestors have taught them. You learn and climb higher on the shoulders of your parents. Mexicans have coins older than every black family in this country. That is what EVERY other Native and Immigrant has on the African American.

And let me also add that I am simply trying to shed light on a lot of questions people might have about the black community. Some of its intentional evil reporting, but a lot of it is systemic. Families are the backbone of any community. And when your family structure is no good, and have no funding then you have chaos. Its mothers and fathers that set the tone in every community. But the community has to first be taught that a family is what's holding it together. Every nationality has that right but the blacks (generally speaking). Most blacks are in survival mode (just trying to make it from day to day) and don't value (nor see the value in) education, community, society, etc. Most only care about petty, selfish exploits and they live for the day they are in. They go to school and do certain things because the LAW demands it. Its almost a primitive civilization in some instances. Its ignorance compounded by evil reporting. I was in that world where expectations are almost non-existant. Growing up and getting away is the goal. You have zero exposure and every person is measured by wealth, fame, looks, popularity - what they see on TV. Unregenerate, ignorant, dysfunctional behavior. An SAT and ACT score is the last thing someone from that world is thinking of. Especially a black man.

Then the immigrant comes over - who has a country with a flag and a national anthem and can trace his lineage all the way back several generations. And they KNOW what's important already. AND THE VERY LAWS passed to help the sons of slaves - help the immigrants also. And they flourish and set up their COMMUNITY because although they have been through trials - the blue-print of family and tradition is a fabric of their constitution. The countries they come from have skills and trades that they bring with them also. They come with a full volume of knowledge and ethical system. How to plant, build, work and co-exist. And it doesn't hurt to have smooth hair and light skin either. It took the enlightenment of the Lord for me to see and understand. The FAMILY is the most important structure in the world.

Look, nobody is slighting the plight of the African American throughout US history..(dont forget that although many countries had slaves, including Africa, much of this country DIDNT have slaves and more than half of this country spilled blood and fought a civil war to change that fact). You make a lot of generalizations with your last couple comments...Im sure there are more than a few successful black African American families that dont struggle day to day...your comments are a bit too over the top.

anyways..im not comparing tragedies....its not like there is a top ten list of histories worst crimes against humanity, much hasnt. I do know you would put Scooter Libby in the top 3..that I know for sure.

im just saying, that not much has changed,

Culzie - love you like a brother, but you are a hard core conservative. Soften that heart my brother. I understand wholeheartedly and appreciate HARD WORK and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, etc, etc. But there are complex circumstances that do not allow everyone to do that as you and many other conservatives would like. We all simply can not be Bill Gates. (And he got his the oily way like a lot of folks do.) I know that you have done well for yourself through sheer hard work and determination. That is to be commended. I commend anyone that finds success in this life - of any kind (most success does not involve money). And I know that there are some folks just as you say - which are flat out lazy, but they are the exceptions and not the norm. The majority of Americans get up with hopes and dreams like you do. They work hard and do their very best.

ok cool.

i saw a show yesterday about how people around the world....would come to America...and then go home and tell their friends...that

"In America...

EVERYONE believes they can be rich!!!"

and they load up their families and they move here to be a part of that.

Do you know why it was so flabergasting to these people from other countries?

because in most countries around the world....they have CASTE SYSTEMS....and they are born into a certain way of life, and thats it, there is no upward mobility. Either you are born into a good life, or you are born into a crap life.

THATS WHY THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE....IS SO APPEALING TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

Now, how much longer will that be our prevailing attitude if we continue down a path of Capitalism is BAD? and SUCCESS is EVIL?

What we have toiled and suffered and fought so hard to achieve these last 400 years.....could be lost in a blink of and eye or a stroke of the pen.

I am not a hard core anything....other than Truth Seeker!

Brother.

B

Keith..im a hard core truth seeker...im no conservative. I just know the difference between a scooter and a harley!