Some think Thunder scored with Sefolosha

I just don't see it.
The Bulls went overboard to get Sefolosha and they were acting like he was going to be the greatest small defensive player since Michael Cooper.
He was never that great on D and that was not even close to covering up the fact that he was a bad offensive player.
"ohhh look! He is tall for a guard!"
And Shaun Bradley was tall for anything but he sucked just the same.
People rip Ben Gordon for scoring 22 points while giving up 23.
What exactly did Thabo ever do to get a free pass here?
Scoring 4 points while giving up 16 makes you some kind of cult hero in the NBA all of a sudden?

Chris Duhon was better than that.

While I thought Thabo played decent defense and was able to help rebound when playing the 2, he still had too many holes which limited his offensive game. Especially his jumpshot! Second worse on the team to Noah. It was a line drive dart that didn't even shoot straight. Considering how it's only marginally better from what he had when he came into the league, the Bulls didn't lose much in trading him.

Oklahoma got a good player in Thabo. He has an all around game and will have a chance to play and develop. Thunder will get a defensively sound athlete with a huge upside - and a GREAT attitude. Bulls took a step back with that trade, but it was the right thing to do for Thabo. I wish him well.

You Gordon lovers just don't understand the game. That is why you should only post at Blog A Bull, with that not so friendly Gordon loving Moron Matt.

Nobody, Ever wins a championship without committing to defense. Gordon can't even commit to trying on any possession on which he isn't trying to shoot the ball.

No doubt about it, Thabo has been a dissappointment. However, I would have been interested in seeing how he would have performed had he been given Luol Deng's starting minutes at small forward, his most natural position.

He just seems to lack a little confidence in his offensive game. Given Deng's putrid performance this season, how much worse could Thabo have been if he played 36+ minutes a game.

Finally, he was clearly our best individual and team defender, and nobody else was even close, with Hinrich being second. Neither Deng or Gordon can guard anybody at their positions, and Gordon doesn't even bother to try to.

Lets hope that Salmon's is some combination of Thabo and Gordon, i.e. a tall, scoring 2 guard who can actually guard tall scoring 2 guards. Because he will be our starter next season, with Gordon making the midlevel exception somewhere else.

The Bulls did indeed lose the Thabo trade, they should have insisted on the Suns first round pick at a minimum, since it has a chance, and with today's season ending Amare injury a good likelihood of being a lottery pick,

Denvers pick which the Bulls will end up with will be one of the last 4-6 picks in the first round.

Thabo probably would have had more value this summer or at next years trade deadline as a complimentary piece in a bigger deal.

the first round pick will end up being a scrub, ala Cedric Simmons with a guaranteed contract that we really don't need.

salmons will make the bulls better

This is a Wash...Tabo never made any lasting impression. One night he was good, the next night he vanished....no big loss. We basically got a first round pick to give it another shot...Salmons now take Tabos spot...shrug....no big deal

This trade was good. Thabo's D was ok. But he was nowhere near the stopper Bruce Bowen prototype everyone said he was. I liked him but he didn't contribute enough offensively.

If Thabo could have learned to consistently hit the open, pitch in 10 pts and play good D, then he would have been great.

Basically we replaced him with another tall guard who can D up but can actually contribute offensively.

We can use the pick for a future trade, because this year's draft is weak. Or we can pick up a decent backup PG like Jonny Flynn from Syracuse

I hoped Thabo would be Scottie Pippen-lite but Thabo is too passive and his shot is flat than a soda left out for 3 days. Good trade

Let me get this straight.....the Bulls paid a million bucks to the Sixers to draft Thabo, who for the lack of a better word sucked. And now they are trading him along with more money for a draft pick.

Given Paxson's outstanding day 1 draft decisions, is this supposed to make Bulls fans feel like they actually got something for Thabo?

I Agree with Robert 100%. At the least get the better of the two picks (Denver, Phoenix) not the worst of the two. Bottom line, Thabo is better than anyone we could draft at the end of the 1st round. At least with the better of the two picks, we have a chance at a decent player, maybe sneak in to the lottery even. Thabo will make it in this league, might not be spectacular but he'll play a roll, and contribute. I am happy for Thabo though, as this move will at least give him an opportunity

I am not really sure where the Bulls are going with the trades they made. I do think they lost in the Thabo trade. Late round picks are really a crap shoot. Remember just a few years ago when the Bulls needed a big guard who could defend. Remember how well Thabo played against Duane Wade in the playoff's. I know he didn't progress like most thought he would. He is still better then a late round pick and he can play several positions. Well they just got rid of both their taller guard and now are committed to signing Ben Gordan next year or they are really in trouble. The other trade brings two players the Bulls traded away, one of which they paid not to play before they bought him out. Both are older and on the down side of their careers. The got rid of Noce who was their only tough player. I keep hearing about all these teams trying to clear cap space to sign free agents. I find it hard to believe the big name free agents are going to leave their current teams to be part of a rebuilding process. Lebron James, Duane Wade, and Chris Bosch sure aren't going to do that. It almost seems like John Paxton made some moves so he could say he made some moves. He has been criticized for not making moves in the past. I just never thought it was a real positive to tear a team apart like that to free up money in the hopes to sign a player in a year of two. There will be a lot of other teams out there as well. New York for one who we all know will outbid everyone else. Remember Mike D'Antoni? The Bulls lost that one. It's hard to figure out what direction John Paxton wants this team to go in as it has changed so many times since he has been GM and his record for drafting and free agents has been spotty at best.

Thabo was mediocre, period. Pax made a great move getting rid of him. Shooting 42% from the field doesn't cut it. Did any of you'all actually watch him playing in the Bucks game? Good luck to the Thunder or whoever they are because this guy is a big-time bust.

Congratulations to the Bulls on a superb game against Denver. I was shocked. And they didn't even need Thabo to do it.

are you guys kidding me? thabo stinked and there is no room for him. He would get zero playing time. point guards are now rose/hinrich/hunter...shoting guards gordon/salmons.... small forward deng/salmons/tim thomas. We needed to get rid of some guards, lets be happy we got a first rd pick...all 1st rd picks can be a gem!

Face it Thabo was never that impressive when he did get some minutes. He was much better defensively than offensively but still not a lock down defender. Now as much as it hurts me to say this (believe me it hurts) Gordon recently seems to at least be trying to play defense. Last night Deng defended Carmello very well and the team as a whole played with more energy than they have in a long time. Some may argue that K-Mart only played 18 minutes in the first half and was out the rest of the game but the Bulls had just 8 players available to play period and erased a 12 point Denver lead in the second quarter with Gray, Noah and Tyrus on the floor at the same time. Now Wednesday against the Bucks Thabo had 8 points 3 assists and 2 steals in 36 minutes which sounds decent enough until you look at the fact he shot only 33% from the field and 20% from the arc. 5 of his 9 shots were beyond the arc. Don't get me wrong, he may thrive somewhere else but with the addition of Salmons his playing time became nil in Chicago and until it is seen what the Bulls end up getting or doing with the first round pick they got for Thabo no one can say for sure that the Thunder got the best of that trade.

ok I noticed a typo in my last post just as I hit submit.
Thabo played 26 minutes wednesday night not 36. Sorry bout that lol

Until we get rid of Gordon, we will have a problem. Thabo should have been playing the two with Hinrich. I would have liked the Rose/Hinrich/Thabo back court, but Gordon was in the way. It seems we can win, when the opposition forgets about Ben and he gets lots of jumpers. But, we have a better chance when we use Deng/Tyrus/Noah to get those close in shots with Rose and Hinrich slashing. I pray that Gordon goes somewhere else next summer.

The issue is one of a balanced rotation and options. Thabo wasn't going to fit the current situation because, with a glut of guards, there wasn't enough time to develop and get a rhythm. You get better when you play. Both Thabo and Larry will make contributions on teams where there is opportunity. That said the Bulls, while taking a loss, improve by creating a rotation that makes more sense and allows Derrick Rose to emerge. The Bulls have more 4-5 power now which will slow down the traffic in the lane and Miller/Thomas will also open the lane on offense. It is starting to get interesting.

Dean, you would keep Thabo over Ben. Ben's defense has improved to mediocre...it's still not good. But he is one of the best scorers in the league. He scored 37 against a Denver team that is top 10 in defense.

Ben has his cons, but his pros definitely outway them.

O.K. guys, I understand that people are predisposed to basketball over hockey, but I think the amount of Bulls' threads have reached an absolute zenith. Has anyone bothered to notice what the Chicago Blackhawks have been doing lately? They are no longer an up-and-coming team. They are RIGHT NOW an elite team in the NHL. Let's start giving them their props. They have handled an incredibly unfair road schedule as well as anyone could ever imagine any year, any time! They are fourth in the NHL western conference only because Detroit and San Jose are "elite plus" (i.e. better than most Stanley Cup teams ever assembled) and Calgary, an inferior team to them, just happens to be in first place in their division.

Let's go Hawks and let us all get behind them!

I totally believe that getting rid of Thabo was a very good move. I dont understand how Robert could even compare Thabo with Deng! Deng got a carrier avaerage of 15.5 points/game, 6.4 rebounds, over 1 steals a game and shooting 47.6%. This year in January he averaged 17.5 points at 50% shooting with 8.5 rebounds and almost 2 steals a game. Thabo's stat doesnt come even come close to 30% of those of Deng. Thabo's best season was just 6.7 points at 42.8% shooting while averaging almost 21 minutes. Thabo is a bust and it was a good riddance. Deng is also a better defender than him, even though he does something stupid every once in a while. But he defended well against LaBron and Mello. So no comparison there.
The trade was very good for the Bulls. John Salmons is having a carrier season with 18.3 points at over 47% shooting, almost 42% from 3-point line with over 4 rebounds and almost 4 assists and he is a very good defender. Furthermore, he is a veteran of 7 years and only 29 years old. I would even like to see him starting over Gordon. I couldnt believe that King gave him away! But overall, Paxon did great.

im a bulls fan living in cali..john salmons was a nice pick up.. you will be impressed with his defense and he can score some points

Keith do you wish him well against the Bulls?

You treat the Pro's like its the freaking Glee Club...

dude, he is the Enemy now!

Sorry Robert.
I am not a Gordon lover but I do understand the game and I know that Gordon is a hell of a lot better player than Thabo will ever be.
Every team needs a guy who can give you instant offense and Gordon does that as well as anyone in the NBA.
What does Thabo do as well?

Wanting him to have Deng’s minutes just to see how mediocre he really is does not say a whole lot about anyone's knowledge of the game.
Thabo had his shot here. He is just what he seems to be and nothing more.

Where the heck has Julie B been?

Rogers Park and Ed in Richmond have practically been hitting on anything that moves in her absence.

I cant be the only funny person in here....

How can this trade be graded before the Bulls have drafted? There is no guarantee either Phoenix or Denver will make it to the playoffs, so this could turn into a good pick for the Bulls.

Anyone who knows anything about basketball should understand that Thabo is not very good. Yes, he has potential, but so does every player in the NBA,. Keep potental and give me results. Ben Gordon is a very good offensive player. Thabo is an ok defender.

Is anyone actually saying they wouldd rather have an ok defensive player than a very good offensive player. Thabo will never be more than a mediocre pro, Ben could be an all-star playing with Rose in a year or two. He consistently hits the open shots Rose gets him. What more do you want?

Since everyone seems to be enamored with potential, the Bulls have potentially gotten a great player for Thabo, doesn't that make everyone happy?

I think the trade was good for both teams. I think to get a 1 rd pick for thabo was a coup for the bulls. Regardless of what we all thought thabo was or could've been. He was never gonna get the minutes he needed on a consistent basis. I do belive Deng has gotten a free pass for the last two seasons and I for one would have been happy to see him go for someone like Gerald Wallace or anybody with a bit more heart and atheletic ability. Gordon is a whole other story, can't dribblet,pass, or defend. Unfortunately I do believe there will be a few decent players for the bulls that definitely will fit there needs. Maybe a Blair a Terrence Williams form louisville , Damon James maybe even Dejuan Summers. They don't need a superstar they need solid players. The teams with the most talent doesn't always win but the team that plays together usually does.

Thabos' feet are a little too slow to make him very good N.B.A. player. Until he improves that aspect of his game, he will be nothing more than an average player. Yeah, we all like his solid play and demeanor, but he would have had no chance to grow with this roster. I think the Bulls were doing him a favor.

We got Milwaukee, Philly and Detroit right where we want 'em. In our sights and ready to pass!

Go Bulls!

Culzie, I am a Bulls fan FIRST - after that, Eastern Conf., after that, a NBA fan. I hope Thabo eviscerates everyone except the Bulls. I root for all ex-Bulls that served well. I still root for Ron Artest. If you give me your heart, I give you mine. Thabo played his very best and so did Noch and Gooden. The likes of Hughes, Erob - I root for their demise. Unless they played under Skiles.

Navarro - I agree mostly. There are some guys so slow in the NBA, but they play. But time will tell. I think Thabo will be a hot or cold player. Either a great pro or a complete washout. His game is ALL AROUND, and there are not too many of those guys. I think his attitude alone makes him better than half of the guys in the league. But only time will tell. I wish him the best.

Gig you are right to request a Hawk's blog. They are getting a lot of attention. I just cannot follow Hockey, but I root for them. I saw one highlight on comcast of a Hockey player jumping up in the air and shooting a goal. Was just amazing.

I cannot get enough Bulls. And everyone loves a Rocky story. The Bulls are gonna get up off the mat because "Chicago Loves them".

Navarro is right! Milwaukee, Philly and Detroit - In Ron Isley's voice: "ALL they hear is footsteps baby, in the dark, oh in the dark"

I think Keith was also a fan of Dragan Tarlac, Dalibor Bagaric, Granville Waiters and Kornel David, among the other former Bulls scrubs as well because those guys "gave it their all" even though they stunk. ;)

All kidding aside though, I'm actually surprised with all the posts in this Thabo topic. The great Thabo Sefolosha who scored ZERO points in 17 mins in his Oklahoma City debut last Saturday. His great defense sure helped limit the Golden St. Warriors to 133 points! Wow. I also get a chuckle from some of these infrequent Bulls bloggers who say that we give Luol Deng a free ride. Um, I think the majority consensus on Deng was that he's overpaid. Just like Kirk Hinrich, he couldn't be traded because well uh, because NOBODY in the NBA wants to take on their overpaid contracts! But of course, like some of the clueless out there always say... no way is this Paxson or Reindorf's fault. Yeah right.

Edgar - I am dying laughing!!! Dying!!!! Dalibor Bagaric is one of my favorites because he had a head like a Dove Bar and a attitude about playing time. I used to call him "Garbareech"! Bulls would only play him in garbage time. When I first saw Granville Waiters, I busted a rib laughing! Dude was 26 and looked like he was about to retire. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because Krause drafted him, but dude was terrible!!!! Can you imagine Mike's face when he suited uppppp!!!! (took me 10 minutes to finish this post....)

"The likes of Hughes, Erob - I root for their demise. Unless they played under Skiles."

I completely agree - how dare someone try to coach up under-achieving players. They're really showing Skiles something now!

At least Culzie missed me! I'm back, but my only comment on the Bulls is that I wish this season would just mercifully end already. This is the most boring Bulls season I ever remember. I'd rather sit and stare at the wall for 2 and a half hours than watch the same crap over and over every single game.

It's gettin a little sausagie in here, eh?

Roman responds: Welcome back Pit Vipress!

Keith - you must really feel vindicated about your never-say-die gripe with Skiles...look at the way this team has excelled since he left!

I'm with Julie on this. For such a crappy team, why are there so many posts about the Bulls?

How about a post about who we think the Cubs will blame their failure on at the end of the 2009 season? My bet -- THE ECONOMY!

Or

Who is the Cub most likely to return to the planet after an "out of this world" season? My bet -- Ryan Dempster

Or

Which game and in what inning of that game will Lou doze off? My bet -- 28th game, 3rd inning of PRESEASON

Or

How many articles will the Tribune write lauding the Cubs as the best team in the N.L. and Lou Piniella as the second coming of Connie Mack before the Cubs race out of the gate with a 7-14 record (and that will probably still lead the Central Division!!!)? My bet -- 50.

Seedy & Julie - We like the Bulls as much as the Bears! And the Bulls have given us more memories.

Tommy and Carl - I told yall that Skiles was the problem. Any melon head can scream like a bully and look like he needs an antacid. COACHING is what Phil Jackson is doing. I'm no Tim Thomas fan, but he WANTS to play for Vinny and refused to play for Skiles. Skiles had Chris Duhon in his doghouse. CHRIS-Bracelets-wearing-DUHON from Duke. If that is not an indictment I don't know what is. Duhon seems to be flourishing under Dantoni, just like Tim Thomas did. Hmmmmmmmm I guess they just had something to prove to Skiles.... Dude is not the genious yall are cooking him up to be. And Milwaukee aint going NOWHERE.

KLSS --

Yeah, I guess that's why Skiles has HIS team two games better in the win column than all last year, while Vinny and the Bulls (Benny and the Jets?) are struggling to equal last year's total. And Skiles has done it without one of his top players.

Vinny and the Bulls pretty much need to win 41 games to make this a marginally successful season after all the hype, landing D Rose, making the big trades at the deadline, etc., etc.

All I know is right now, Vinny and the Bulls are looking up at the Bucks. That may change, but Skiles has outperformed Vinny and the Bulls thus far.

After that win....yall gone see some more posts! Bulls are turning the corner! All of a sudden, things just got interesting!

Yep, them boring Bulls are just too hard to watch. Who cares that their new second team were starters and all-stars elsewhere. Why even tune in to them whooping Orlando like Duke would do Texas A&I. So what if Detroit is on their way to a ten game losing streak. What? Philly has a monster west coast tour coming up? Small news!Forget all about Boston showing signs of age.

Salmons has a gorgeous stroke and plays 'D'? So! Tim Thomas hits threes at will and refuses to turn the ball over to the other team. Big whip! We now have a seven footer who not only passes, shoots and is strong enough to guard a legitimate big, but he can steal the ball in the open court and fly down court for an uncontested dunk? Yeah, well?

Yeah, well, you don't know basketball! I know it's only been two games, but I can tell you we're a more veteran, saavy, athletic, less turnover prone, better shooting, deeper and legit team.

Stay tuned pessimists, that possum may just be gone when you decide to look back.

P.S. It has to feel pretty good when you can put in your second team to build you a fourth quarter double-digit lead so you could put in your starters to mop up the last three minutes!!!

Ok I can't help but laugh...Brad Miller fly down the court? Yes that was a great play by Miller but I would never describe him as flying down the court, it was more like a sherman tank rumbling down the hardwood. In any case considering the new comers to the Bulls roster, dispite lack of time to practice, are meshing well with their new team mates.
I think we could've done without the "seedy" Elton John referrence also, especially since it won't be long now that the Bucks will be like Texas in my rearview mirror. (figured if seedy can referrence Elton John I could haul out an old Mac Davis song title LOL)

Seedy - it doesn't matter what the facts are to Keith. EVERY NBA expert (I mean former players now commentators) say the Bulls last year and this year are playing to their abilities. Under Skiles, they over-achieved. Their performance speaks for itself - then and now.

Keith - I don't remember using the word "genious" or even guru. Who gave up on who? You don't know, I don't know.
The facts are the facts. They guy had these guys thinking defense mattered, that effort mattered, that running actual NBA plays mattered. Do you see this stuff they run now? Ran more complicated plays in HS. Please don't bring up Duhon - the guy kept more bars in business here than any stimulus can. Thomas - yeah, look at that malcontent's track record...2 great examples.

They are what they used to be. 2 all-stars away from contending for a title. If that gets you fired up, I'm happy for you.

Tommy - not sure what was better. Your overall post, or the Duhon/stimulus comment.

well done...

Seedy and Tommy - Facts and Stats only measure half of a volatile thing like coaching. Its not what you know, but whether you can convey what you know to others. If the other person does not understand what you have said - you have not communicated. If you think that the difference between the Bulls last year and this year was just the players, then you are really missing it. Tim Thomas would not be here and maybe not Brad Miller - if Skiles was. Its almost a given that Tyrus and Noah would not be as far along in their development. With Skiles, its addition by subtraction.

I happen to love defense OVER offense. Anyone serious about hoops knows better. I don't dislike Skiles, I know he really wanted to win. I just did not like his style and results - especially doing that in Phil Jackson's house. But what really angered me is to know he was repelling the team and ANY guys who might have seriously considered coming here. Who wants to go to boot camp? Especially on a losing squad.

KLSS and AN --

It was nice to see the Bulls smoke a team with a winning record.

KLSS -- Food for thought.... Maybe Vinny is having a hard time conveying how to play the game to his starting 5 and that's why the second team pretty much outperformed the starting 5 based on the minutes played. Maybe Skiles did lose the team's ear -- just as Vinny has done (at least with the starting 5) -- and it required an entirely new second team to illustrate that fact.

Seedy, I'ts fair to say that the starting five were outplayed, but there were always two starters on the court with the second team almost at all times. It boiled down to crisper passes, smarter decisions, good shooting (which always helps), and a, realistically speaking, SECOND STARTING FIVE going against the other teams bench. Our starters are still young (avg. age 22+) but I hope Vinny doesn't change a thing. He hasn't lost anything; at least nothing a little growing up won't cure.

Seedy - thanks for acknowledging the win. I know its hard to see "progress", since the previous administration left us with such a deficit! But take it from ole Southsider, WE WILL recover. We will return to the playoffs once again and compete like we used to. And we will attract a free Agent in 2010! Yes we can. And yes we will!! God bless you! And God bless the United States of America!!

Keith...you're delirious...take a breath. whose deficit was this?

Carl - lighten up. That was my Barack Obama/Vinny DelNegro speech. You know... that Chicago connection. I was feeling good until yesterday. Difference a day makes in the NBA. I won't speak negatively of the previous administration anymore ok. Bush/Skiles did a wonderful job.

Keith - what difference does having Tim Thomas and Brad Miller make? They're just "guys" - they get the team no closer to a championship.

No - I get the difference between last year and this year. It's the same players who now play in an 8th grade system for a coach who doesn't really know what he's doing. Pretty simple.

...after your post to Seedy I could feel a collective "KUMBAYA" on this board.

I cant wait for 2010 Free Agency...

We should sign Michael Steele, Bobby Jindal or Eric Cantor....

those would be great pick ups!