Cubs-Sox, what have we learned?

I have learned that Cub fans believe that you get a ring for being in first place in June. The Cubs are not that good on the road and they have a lot of road games left. (Yes Cub fans, they actually have to play 82 road games just like the rest on the teams)
Even when they had the best record in baseball (not now) they could not shake the Cardinals and Brewers and they play St. Louis in a few days on the road.
When they are hot they are very good but now there is some real chinks starting to show in the armor. Nothing to panic about but hold off on the World Series parade Cub fans.
There is a real good chance that they come out of that series with the Cardinals in 2nd place.

I have learned that the White Sox live and die by the long ball but what else is new? I also learned that Carlos Quentin is the real deal after I ripped Kenny Williams during the off-season for not getting Kosuke Fukudome or Tori Hunter. I would still take Fukudome over Nick Swisher in a heartbeat. I think that Fukudome is the one that showed the rest of the Cubs how important it is to have good at bats and make the pitchers work. He leads by example.
Yes it is good that the Sox have already played the Twins and the Tigers because both teams are on fire right now. I like the Sox bullpen but another starter would be real nice.

A subway series is not just a dream anymore.

UGGGGHH....DO I HAVE ANY OF MY SISTERS LIPSTICK ON ME???

No but its on life support. Cubs are the only real contender for a trip to the World Series. They were hurt badly on the Southside because they were supposed to sweep the Sox or take 2 games minimum. Cubs found out they weren't as good as they thought, and the Sox found out they were weren't as bad. Cubs now see that beating a team from the AL is not going to be a cakewalk whether its the WhiteSox or BOSTON who I expect to rise to the top. Sox aint going nowhere. All of the AL giants are awake and they are angry! Sox will compete though because of their pitching. Its going to be a wild ride for both teams. And both could make the post season, but I don't expect a trophy to be won by any of them. Cubs are definitely missing a veteran ace pitcher and the overall postseason experience. They are exciting, but have all the earmarks of nightmare waiting to happen. Better they found out this week than in the post season. Time to do some shopping. CC anyone???

Ironically, the Sox have all the pieces, but they are not firing on all cylinders. Jermaine Dye showed just a glimpse of what happens when just one of the Sox's big 4 get going. They are like BRUCE BANNER and the INCREDIBLE HULK! If JD, CREDE, THOME and KORNERKO ever click together, even the Boston Redsox could not stop them. Especially with Quinton, AJ and Ramirez contributing. No sir, teams would not like them when they are angry. But alas, they are still Bruce Banner, the pushover. But they posses the pitching and experience to get it done if they choose to. Sox pick up one more experienced starter...it could get nasty.

The Diaz fight...In case anybody is wondering...that's how a "Man" goes down swinging...My hats off to you, David

I would love a Cubs/Zisk World Series...When healthy, lol, the Cubs are the best team in baseball...so yeah, bring on Ritchie...that would be a sweet beat down...

Ritchie Zisk beat up a guy with no arms this weekend...David's guy had both limbs..

Not surprised that the Sox swept the Cubs this weekend. Good rivalries will defy the odds and historical stats all the time. Bottom line, both are good enough teams to make the playoffs come October and here's to hoping no major season-ending injuries come about for either team. I'm a bigger Cubs fan, but yep, we took it in the chin against the Sox this weekend. There would be nothing better than a Chicago vs. Chicago World Series so no problem with me if the White Sox do well in the American League for the rest of the season. Good luck!

Let's make no mistake,
1.) Derrick Lee is no clutch hitter-but we all knew that
2.) Sox Won game one because they faced Ryan Dempster-the second time in as many games
3.) The sox won game two because no one on the Cubs want to drive selfish Derrick Lee home
4.) The Sox won Game 3 because of absoulutely terrible umpires-those minor league guys were called up because obviously the fix was on-when they are found out...then it won't be a hit for the regular Umps and MLB's credibility (they learned that from NBA).
5.) It almost looked like the Cubs didn't care..
but now they lost their excuse for losing 2 out of 3 to the orioles at home(they were NOT caught looking ahead to the Sox Series.)
6.) the Sox won't be around in October(just not good enough)....and neither will the Cubs if they don't stop trying to hit homeruns with every swing.

should have benched Ramirez after going 0-9 in the first 2 games...should have pinch hit for Lee (80% of his homers have been solo shots) when he came up with RISP. Why did Edmonds start all 3 games? He really looks worse than Thome...and that is saaaaaaaaaaaad.

Stuck, the Sox won all 3 games because they are a great home team, just like the Cubs are a great home team. Oh, and that 0-for-Aramis performance helped too. Your post is written like a a true Sox hater. Face it, the Sox won because they played better for 3 straight games. And our bullpen is deadly. If our starters get the game into the 7th, forget it. They may make it interesting, but they're solid. And speaking of relievers, Marmol better get back to being Marmol, or the Cubs are gonna have some problems. Quit your complaining about the umps, etc. If the Cubs HAD benched Ramirez , you'd be complaining about that too.

Culzie, I'd recognize Viva Glam VI anywhere. Go hit the showers. While you're in there, you can sing my favorite song. It goes like this:

NAH NAH NAH NAH
NAH NAH NAH NAH
HEY HEY HEY
GOODBYE!!!!

So on a seperate note, I was in Las Vegas this past weekend with the boys and am 99% sure I saw you pretty cozy to say the least with some hot young thing walking through the Wynn on Friday night..only two things to say to that...congrats to you my man and does she have a sister?!?

Roman responds: She has a few sisters.

I learned that the White Sox have a parade when they win the World Series while Cub fans have a parade through Wrigleyville every year.

I learned the;

1) Sox won games 1 and 3 handily.
2) Crede saved game 2 with his glove (I'm still having trouble understanding this guys low fielding percentage this year?).

3) Thornton is a monster this year and deserves more innings.

4) When we aren't swinging at ankle high pitches, we are near unbeatable with our strong pitching staff.

5) "Who do you like this weekend" blog came BEFORE series at Wrigley, "What have we learned" blog comes AFTER Sox sweep. Partiality strikes again.

To Roman Modrowski:
"(Yes Cub fans, they actually have to play 82 road games just like the rest on the teams"
Hey Bright Guy, they play 81 games on the road. 162 divided by 2 equals 81. Not 82.
Learn math, then post.

Roman responds: When did I write that?

To Roman Modrowski:
"(Yes Cub fans, they actually have to play 82 road games just like the rest on the teams"
Hey Bright Guy, they play 81 games on the road. 162 divided by 2 equals 81. Not 82.
Learn math, then post.

Roman responds: When did I write that?

I wrote that and it was a typo... just the comments that have the Cubs playing in the World series in June. At least I was close.

Talk about being overmatched ... Diaz had his clock cleaned from start to finish. He fought gamely, but face the facts; he didn't belong in the same ring with Pacquiao. At the finish line the ref didn't even bother counting him out, that's how badly he was beaten. David's face looked like a road map of Cleveland, while Manny looked like he could have fought 12 more rounds. But I'll give Diaz his props; he's certainly no coward.

As for the Sox / Cubs ... what was that song Julie was singing?

Yeah, that's sums it up!

Before the Cubs/Sox series, Lou Pinella "tweaked" the line-up so Big Z was not in the rotation for the Cubs/Sox series at Wrigley. To further cement this ploy, Big Z was taken out of a game a few days before the Cubs/Sox series at Wrigley for "shoulder discomfort." Big Z was put on the DL until the Cubs/Sox series was done! I never believed he was injured, he will be back on July 4 and will win big. I'm a Cub fan and really wanted to see Big Z in this Cubs/Sox series. Why did the Cub big-wigs want to keep him out of this entire Cubs/Sox series when he really wasn't injured?

Julie, I am not a Sox hater, but a Sox fan hater.
I prefer the Cubs, although my dislike for Cub fans isn't as deep.
The Sox Bullpen is just going through a lucky streak....they don't look very good at all...they have more castaways than the Cubs....I would take the Cubs pen over the Sox anyday...Lou just has to stop messing around with it....stop overusing Marmol.....oh and get rid of Howry, Cotts, and Eyre-they are more suited for the weaker American league.

stuckinwisconsin - weaker American League? You mean the league that has a 149-102 record versus the National League? You mean the league that has only two teams with losing records versus the National League? Care to back up your statement?

yes, I can back up my statement with two words-Barry Zito. No doubt would still be Dominant in the WEAKER American League, however, in the big boy league:3-12. Pedro Martinez-the list goes on and on- look at how well a really fat and out of shape pitcher like Curt Shilling did in the WEAKER American league. Please back up your statement with something other than spring training stats.

Karl from LA, you are treading in dangerous waters. stuckinwisconsin is a celebrity on this blog who is famous for drawing Sox fans into exchanges. He KNOWS better. AL has been taking them to the woodshed for years. Cubs had momentum like a steam engine, but the Sox and their pen put that fire out!

But stuck, I do like your explanation of being a Sox fan hater. That would make me a "Wragley Field experience" hater. Don't dislike the club, manager or any one exclusively, just the whole plastic experience.

Karl from LA, you are treading in dangerous waters. stuckinwisconsin is a celebrity on this blog who is famous for drawing Sox fans into exchanges. He KNOWS better. AL has been taking them to the woodshed for years. Cubs had momentum like a steam engine, but the Sox and their pen put that fire out!

But stuck, I do like your explanation of being a Sox fan hater. That would make me a "Wragley Field experience" hater. Don't dislike the club, manager or any one exclusively, just the whole plastic experience.

We have learned that the classic was good for BOTH teams!!!
Cubs embarrassed the Sox and might have awakened them.
Sox humbled the Cubs and have given them the right perspective.
OZZIE was RIGHT!!! Folks treat us with a little more respect now.

I learned that the Cubs need to get healthy and FAST. I also learned that the White Sox have an outstanding bullpen. I also learned in game three that the NBA isn't the only league with officiating problems. I'm not saying that's the reason why the Whtie Sox won because they played great this weekend. I'm just saying that there were some HORRIBLE calls made.

Oh, and to the "Cub fan" that claimed that "Derrick Lee" is a selfish player, who is "Derrick Lee?"

I learned that the Cubs need to get healthy and FAST. I also learned that the White Sox have an outstanding bullpen. I also learned in game three that the NBA isn't the only league with officiating problems. I'm not saying that's the reason why the Whtie Sox won because they played great this weekend. I'm just saying that there were some HORRIBLE calls made.

Oh, and to the "Cub fan" that claimed that "Derrick Lee" is a selfish player who doesn't hit in the clutch, who is "Derrick Lee?"

Don't take Stuck's bait, he's not dumb enough to actually believe his statement about the weaker AL. He's too smart not to know that the AL has won 3 of the last 4 World Series, all of which were sweeps. He's too smart not to know that this year's AL dominance over NL (149-110) is no fluke, with the AL posting the following recent records vs. the NL:

2007 - AL edge 137-113
2006 - AL edge 154-98
2005 - AL edge 136-116

Maybe his comments are worth another look though. Maybe he's actually providing some insight and we'd all be well served to listen up. Like pointing to how our bullpen has been lucky. Surely there is some mathematical formula or theory he's utilizing to support that statement. Although I can only find the Sox bullpen leading or at the top of every statistical category imagineable, I am not going to doubt him on this one....no sense in me fighting a battle that probably can't be won. When he says he'd rather have the Cubs bullpen as long as they limit the appearances of Marmol and get rid of Cotts, Eyre, and Howry, I am sure there must be better bullpen arms they would replace them with that we are all unaware of. And those arms combined with the reliable steady presence of Kerry Wood must make for a better option in late innings than the Sox can offer. Sounds good to me.

Folks, with all sarcasm aside, the Cubs are going to the playoffs and could easily stroll into the World Series. With current roster they will never beat the AL representative though. They'll add an arm in the rotation and another in the bullpen and make things interesting. Sox have less glaring weaknesses than Cubs. But the road to Series is much tougher and changing their roster will be much harder to do. They have at least a 50% chance of making playoffs and as good a chance as any AL team of making the Series once they get in. Against any NL team, including the Cubs, the Sox would have the edge in the World Series...no doubt about it.

The Cubs look like a different team on the road. I don't follow the Sox as closely, but I'd say they're a better team at home as well. Not to mention the Sox got swept in a NL park and the Cubs got swept in an AL park. No Jim Thome for the Sox and Henry Blanco? for the Cubs, not exactly what both teams were built for.

What have we learned?

That time wounds all heals.
That a beer is better quaffed than tossed in the direction of a Cubs fan.
That Lou, after all his years in the Majors, doesn't know when he is being set up to be "ambushed."
That the AL is way better than the NL.
That the Cell is better than Wrigley.
That Marshall has more upside than Hill.
That the Sox rotation is better than the Cubs (even with Z).
That Steve Stone is a better "color" analyst than Ron Santo.
That rock beats scissors.
That homers count.
That hitters have adjusted to Marmol.
That the Rays have improved since Lou left.
That Joanie loves Chachie.

I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. I knew in spring training that the Cubs would need another top of the rotation starter to go further into the playoffs. I also knew in spring training that the Sox would need at least one more starter to make the playoffs. Vasquez, Contreres and Floyd have all gone backwards in June. If anything I am more confident in the Cubs after playing the White Sox. The Cubs averaged 5 runs a game off a staff that had about a 3.2 era when the series started. And they did it all banged up.

A Complete Ripping of Everything Stuckinwisconsin Said.

By: Noles

>>>Let's make no mistake,

You're about to make several.

>>>1.) Derrick Lee is no clutch hitter-but we all knew that

His name is spelled "Derrek", but we all knew that.

>>>2.) Sox Won game one because they faced Ryan Dempster-the second time in as many games

What? They hadn't faced Dempster in 4 games.

>>>3.) The sox won game two because no one on the Cubs want to drive selfish Derrick Lee home\

1) It's "Derrek", again.
2) Why is he selfish?
3) Stop posting.

>>>4.) The Sox won Game 3 because of absoulutely terrible umpires-those minor league guys were called up because obviously the fix was on-when they are found out...then it won't be a hit for the regular Umps and MLB's credibility (they learned that from NBA).

Yes, Lou should not have been tossed. Lou also doesn't play baseball, and any impact he would have had on the game was minimal. There were few, if any, controversial calls. There is absolutely no way you can pin this on the umps.

>>>5.) It almost looked like the Cubs didn't care..
but now they lost their excuse for losing 2 out of 3 to the orioles at home(they were NOT caught looking ahead to the Sox Series.)

I can't believe you actually think this could have been a reason that the Cubs lost 2/3 games.

>>>6.) the Sox won't be around in October(just not good enough)....and neither will the Cubs if they don't stop trying to hit homeruns with every swing.

Why are the Sox not good enough?
Where did you get the idea that the Cubs are trying to hit a homer with every swing? I could have sworn that Soriano, the guy who supposedly tries to do this the most, was on the disabled list...

>>>should have benched Ramirez after going 0-9 in the first 2 games

Yeah, there's an idea. Bench your 2nd best hitter after 2 bad games.

>>>...should have pinch hit for Lee

Yeah, there's an idea, pinch hit for your best hitter!

>>>(80% of his homers have been solo shots) when he came up with RISP.

Absolutely not Lee's fault.

>>>Why did Edmonds start all 3 games?

Because the Cubs want to try their best to win games?

>>>He really looks worse than Thome...and that is saaaaaaaaaaaad.

Thome is not playing bad! For the last freakin' time! He has 44 BB and 16 HR! If my entire lineup is .231/.355/.488 like Thome, I have the best offense in baseball! Is he as good as usual? No. But bad luck has a good amount to do with it.

Stuck sez: "Please back up your statement with something other than spring training stats."

How about inter-league play, All Star games, and the World Series these past five or so years?

You tell me who has dominated.

wow..and I just learned Ritchie Zisk has an even bigger inferiority complex than what's already obvious...

Designated Hitters have no place in baseball...The AL has always seemed sterile and neutered to me...it's boring

Sterile, neutered, and boring would make me angry and bitter, too...

Wow, it feels good to have people to kick dirt with again. I have had many unanswered posts lately...I must say I am surprised that people seem more upset that I mis spelled Derrick's name more than anything else I typed-which I can't actually remember. Noles, you seemed to have lost your pep about half way through your rant. If you find your self losing interest quite frequently, then just un plug your keyboard after 75 characters.
Now for the Kicker.

Allstar dominance? Hardly. Everyone knows the best players aren't there. The only accurate conclusion is that the Al's most popular players have out executed the Nl's most popular players the last 11 years.
World Series dominance? Double elimination would undoubtedly eliminate accidental championships from
the likes of talent-weak teams such as the WhiteSox.
Interleague dominance: There is virtually no culture in the American league, thus very few rivalries. The National League undoubtedly views interleague play as mere exhibition and puts its energy into division rivalries. Afterall, Interleague play is a vehicle for the leisurely American league to get more exposure nationally.

Stuck; you have an excuse for everything.

But no answers.

The White Sox were a talent weak team when they won the World Series?
So they just got “lucky” and won 99 games, swept the Red Sox, took 4 of 5 from the Angels and swept the Astros right? Then they were “lucky” to win 90 games again in 2006 then?
I guess they are “lucky” to be in first place right now. They were "lucky" to have finished .500 or better in 13 of the last 18 seasons too? How much luck can one team have?
You would be wetting your pants if the Cubs had half of that success.
The American league has virtually no culture and no rivalries? Please. Other than the Cubs and Cardinals (The Cubs are not even close to the Cardinals in winning or tradition) and the Dodgers and Giants (Also a one sided battle) which teams in the NL have this big “culture” or rivalry that you vaguely speak of?
I have said before that Cub fans have basically turned into Packer fans and you are just backing that up with every post that you make.

There is a reason why you are "Stuck" in Wisconsin.

Again, I will have to argue your contention that the White Sox won accidentally, Stuck. You've now said that twice, yet without explanation as to why you feel that way. Give me a date in 2005 that the White Sox were not in 1st place. Which game did they lose in the World Series? Their dominance in '05 may have been surprising to you, but undeniable nonetheless. You don't even use reality in trying to make your point. Double elimination in a fantasy world might serve your point well, but it would also work against NL teams too. And your point about the AL having no "culture" is invalid. First of all, who measures that in baseball? I don't remember the Cardinals pouring Pinot Noir all over each other when they won. I also think that most sports fans would argue that the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry is one of the best in any sport. Talent can only be measured by what is produced on the field. Aramis Ramirez proved that all by himself over the weekend.

Designated Hitters do have a place in football (the Bears have a few, but then traded Chris Harris last year who was developing into a very promising designated hitter).

But this entire line of questioning needs to be elevated. So folks, here is the Seedy Backslash Blog Post-a-Rama:

It's a fairly widely held assumption that today's baseball players are better conditioned athletes (more physically fit, staying in year-around shape, etc.) than players 20-30 years ago (and I'm referring to the non-chemical added players). Okay, if that's true, what happened to pitchers? Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mickey Lolich, Rick Reuschel, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins, et. al. regularly threw 275+ innings, with many seasons above 300 innings, yet today's pitchers are barely able to throw 200+ innings without fatigue, arm troubles or both. So, did pitching strategy take a big leap backwards or are today's pitchers a bunch of coddled crybabies who teams bet a fortune on, but don't have the coaching expertise to effectively develop?

Seedy, I think salaries have gotten so huge that owners are trying to protect their assets more than in the past. Maybe some crybabies, but I'm sure Zambrano's current injury wouldn't have warranted a stint on the DL 20 or 30 years ago.

Julie B --

Are you saying owners are turning a blind eye to their position players (and their alleged steroid use) while coddling their pitchers?

Hmmmm. Perhaps, but I think the issue runs a little deeper.

Would you like to try Door #2?

Well Julie. Any time a small market team wins something,it was not supposed to happen (yes Sox are a small market team). They don't take the risks
and are considered flukes just like the Marlins and Whitesox. That is what I mean by accidental.
On the other hand, the Cubs have been much more successfull than the Sox in the last 10 years. A world series title does not make you 'successfull'. That is why it was so anti-climatic when the Sox won. They had a very small fan base and corporate sellout bosses who don't care if they win-just like the Cubs. The difference however is the fact that the Cubs do have a HUGE fan base and the owners did not neglect Wrigley into a state of disrepair. Which is exactly what happened to Comiskey-only to have the taxpayers pay for the current cookie cutter, run-of-the-mill stadium. Sox play in a
Condo. Cubs play in a house. That is culture.

Cubs playoffs: 98,03,07 consistent
Sox playoffs: 05 dismal

Cubs were also in the wild card race in 01 and 04.
the Sox had a mere blip on the radar in 2000

Cubs= success 5 out of 10 years were contenders
Sox = failures 2 out of 10 years were contenders

please stop whining for recognition Sox fans. Your organization doesn't deserve it. NEXT TOPIC........

well put, stuck...very well put

Wrigley's pee smells good and Comisky's pee smelled like pee...

Seedy:

What happened to todays pitchers (as you compare them to the likes of a Bob Gibson) ?

They lowered the mound over ten inches; THAT'S what happened.

It was a huge advantage that current day pitchers no longer enjoy.

Stuck:

Your argument is barely worthy of reply due to the fact that the only team in this town that's ever accomplished anything worthy of recognition in the last 100 years happens to play at 35th and Shields.

Take your sour grapes, go home, make some vinegar, and drown your sorrows, because the only champagne that's been poured in this town has been in the White Sox locker room.

Until they prove otherwise, the Cubs are nothing but a bunch of 100 year old losers.

Ok Seedy, how about the greedy agents preaching to their clients to limit their pitches in order to lengthen their careers? More years = more money.

Kids...dont make me reach back there!!!!

Villano:

Dude, I hope you have more to offer than that.

MLB lowered the mound in 1969. Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins still put up huge innings after that.

Julie B:

Not trying to pick on you, but as the president of one of my former employer's used to say, "Seedy, you need to give this more rigorous thought."

So, Ms. B., lace up those skates, strap on the yoga leotard and give me some insightful analysis into this issue.

Yes, money factors into it, but not as much as you would think. Agents? F**k the agents. They are a blight on every major professional sport going. They are contributing to the decline in pitching, but not in the way you would think.

Happy pondering.

Villano:

Dude, I hope you have more to offer than that.

MLB lowered the mound in 1969. Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins still put up huge innings after that.

The few and the proud.

Before they lowered that mound, guys like Kofax, Drysdale, Gibson, Palmer, Juan Marichal, Micky Lolich, etc. were KILLING THEM!

Lowering that mound was a severe handicap to pitchers, and if you don't know that or are unable to comprehend that, then you know even less than I thought you knew about the game.

It's all about leverage.

Seedy, your oh-so-insightful analysis on the decline of pitching was too many coddled crybabies and ineffective coaching, and nothing else. I believe those things might be part of the bigger picture, but money makes the the world go 'round. Rigorous thought includes at least considering the ideas of others, at least for a moment, so I'd have to concur with your former boss. Did he also ever tell you to "think outside the box?" I did give you insightful analysis, Professor, but you did not provide the same. As a matter of fact, if you were to expand your thinking just a little, we may be able to reach common ground on the crybaby issue, as to me it ties in to the money issue.

In the last half century the Cubs have played their World Series against the White Sox, the White Sox have played their World Series against other teams.

Yo Hitman! It's official; the Cubs don't have a clue.

I just read that Big Z will be held to a pitch count of somewhere between 85 and 90 pitches.

You never let the other team have information like that. NEVER!!!

You don't tip your hand by telling the opposition, "at this point in the game, regardless of the score or what inning it is, we are going to change pitchers.

Dumb, dumb, DUMB!

LaRussa will tell his entire line-up not to swing at the first pitch unless it's too fat to lay off of, and to take Zambrano as deep into the count as possible with each and every at bat.

With any luck they might be able to get rid of him in less than four innings.

Did I mention how dumb it is to divulge this information?

Chuck...thats TEAM ...without an S.

pv1, 1959,2005, two team(s). Cubs, pre 1958(1945), ?.

Well Mark..I can't say I disagree...but my team has Lou Piniella and Alan Trammel....and your team has Chico Escuela..

an por dat I'm berry berry happy..

Cubs fans, an opinion, please.........2 words..............Nate McClouth........the speedy little center fielder for the Pirates, I think, can be had.........he would look great, a left-handed bat, hitting second behind Soriano....with D Lee 3rd, Ramy 4th and Fukudome in the 5 hole.......I like McClouth's grit, he's a gamer and speed never slumps.......I would package Cedeno and Hill or Marshall in a heartbeat for this player......thoughts?

..and I just finalvoted for Jermaine Dye

Julie B:

Wow, that hurt. That tongue lashing was a bit over the top. Did you drop competitive figure skating because the judges only gave you a score, but not an explanation about how they reached it?

But I digress. (Warning: Long Response Follows)

If you look over the history of the game, not much has really changed. A .300 hitter is still a good hitter. A 20 game winner is still a good pitcher. However, one of the primary changes in the game is the decline in good pitching and good pitchers.

You want to argue that money and agents have impacted the game. Yes, money does make the world go round, but it aint everything. Besides, after their first contract extension, most players are set for life.

Others would argue that there are too many baseball teams that water down the talent. Yes, there are more teams, but there also are more humans walking the planet. Just because major league baseball expanded the number of teams by a few, shouldn't mean the pool of available players has shrunk.

In this poster's personal opinion, the problem with today's pitchers is a seering disrepect for pitching fundamentals. Simply put -- too many pitchers have horrible, nay, horrific, pitching mechanics. I often have wondered why. I mean you would think that any youngster who is a good enough pitcher to catch scouts' attention, would want to have as long of a career as possible.

Compare oft-injured Kerry Woods to say, Greg Maddux, or even Jamie Moyer. Kerry Woods' pitching motion is horrible. You would never teach a youngster to throw like he does. How much have the Cubs paid Woods to rehab his shoulder, his elbow, his pysche, etc.? A freaking ton of money -- and way more than they've paid him to actually pitch.

Jamie Moyer on the other hand seems to throw an effortless fastball because of a pitching motion that is fundamentally sound and places less stress on his shoulder, elbow and wrist. I would daresay that if one was able to compare the wear and tear on Jamie Moyer's left shoulder to Kerry Woods' right shoulder, it would be Woods' body that looks like it belongs to a 40+ year old.

I'm sure some of you will say Woods throws much harder than Moyer and that has contributed to his frequent trips to the DL. Well, I thought the goal of being an effective pitcher was getting outs, not throwing hard. And not to be overlooked, how many times has a pitcher returned from Tommy John surgery, had success and then explained his success by saying something to the affect that he had to "learn how to pitch."

So why do today's pitchers lack good fundamentals or mound mechanics? Well, you can certainly blame some of it on agents. You can certainly blame a lot more of it on the pitchers... and coaches... and parents.

For my money, Ryne Sandberg hit the nail on the head during his Hall of Fame acceptance speech: Too many players lack respect for the game (Sandberg could have easily been commenting about our larger society). Too many players -- whether youngsters, high schoolers, or pros -- spend too much time with their mouths open and their eyes, ears and minds closed. Because they are busy yapping, they aren’t learning anything – except how to come up with some cute buzzword that might get them on ESPN. “Hey, I’m going Yard.” WTF?

Barry Bonds is the poster child for this “my way or the highway” surly, bitchy attitude. Zambrano, if he isn’t careful, could become the poster child for pitchers. His mound histrionics often overshadow his God-given abilities. His ego is starting to get the best of him and it’s beginning to show up in his pitching mechanics, which are showing signs of deteriorating (no surprise that he recently went on the DL).

Today’s players – especially the pitchers -- need to spend more time learning the game (keeping their yaps shut and their eyes and ears open). It’s not about throwing the hardest. It’s about throwing under control, having command of your pitches, moving players off the plate when necessary and getting outs. Position players can overcome their fielding gaffes and other deficiencies as long as they can hit. I mean you can always hide a weak armed, defense challenged hitter at first (Frank Thomas anyone?) or DH (Frank Thomas anyone?). But pitchers can’t hide. If they have crappy mechanics, they will flame out. If they have solid mechanics and an understanding of the game and/or an understanding of how to pitch, they seem to enjoy long careers. But the unfortunate reality is that there are too many of the former and not enough of the latter.

So Julie B., now you know what’s going on in my ol’ bean. Hey, it aint much, but it’s all I got.

Cubs= success 5 out of 10 years were contenders
Sox = failures 2 out of 10 years were contenders

please stop whining for recognition Sox fans. Your organization doesn't deserve it. NEXT TOPIC........

Posted by: stuckinwisconsin | July 2, 2008 02:50 PM
***********

You know stuck, you are squealing just like a pig. This is why Cubbie Fans cannot proclaim a World Series Title except of yore. Too much AMBIANCE - see what it has done to your brain and those who think like you.

Just can't stand THE CROSSTOWN WINNER, huh? It Hurts & Pains you & other Cubbie Fans? TOO BAD!!

Well if you been so damn competitive for so many RECENT freaking years where is the Championships?
Where are the trophies
Where are your freaking parades?
Where are the RINGS!?

YOU AIN'T GOT ANY BLANCHE!

So quit your belly-aching, be happy you have a first place team, pray it don't come up against the Mighthy and still only recent World Series Winning Chicago Team - My Beloved White Sox!

small market team located in glorious Chicago gets lucky, you are such a #%^&@#$%^#$%^&%^&.....It is not even printable

NEXT CUBBIE LOSER

-WHITE SOX FAN FOR LIFE!!

Don't be afraid to use your real nick. I don't take anything personal. I also don't attack anyone personally (well accept for EdinRichmond).

Now let's all go to the next topic peacefully.

Hey Hitman...I voted for Jermaine too! It was refreshing to see a black man with a bottle of Hpnotiq in his fridge instead of the sterotypical Alize.

Cubs, pre 1958(1945), ?.

Posted by: Chuck Wagon | July 5, 2008 04:32 PM

ok...so you can go back to 59, but i cant go back to 1908....dude....why do you get to pick the cut off date? I was talking about Modern ERA...since you know the invention of Light Bulbs.. and freezers and stuff...

Cubs, pre 1958(1945), ?.

Posted by: Chuck Wagon | July 5, 2008 04:32 PM

ok...so you can go back to 59, but i cant go back to 1908....dude....why do you get to pick the cut off date? I was talking about Modern ERA...since you know the invention of Light Bulbs.. and freezers and stuff...

Sorry Seedy, you're right. My comment came out sounding a lot more harsh than I had intended. It was probably leftover frustration due to my current argument with Stuck. Anyway, you do have a point, but if pitchers today are all lacking proper mechanics, then why is no one working to correct this problem? I mean, surely other people have recognized this issue. I just can't believe that all, or at least a majority of the pitching coaches lack the ability to recognize and fix fundamental problems with their pitchers. That's their job.

Personally, I still think the yapping crybabies that you speak of are products of the inflated salaries they are lucky to be receiving, as opposed to their counterparts from not that long ago who were just happy to be employed.

And btw, judges not only gave/give scores, but critiques of everything from your dress, hairstyle, condition of your skates - you name it, they critique it. What's your obsession with my figure skating past anyway?

In the last half century the Cubs have played their World Series against the White Sox, the White Sox have played their World Series against other teams.

Posted by: Chuck Wagon | July 3, 2008 07:36 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Culz, the history man, even if we only allow the last 10 years, 20, or 30 years, the fact of the matter is both teams are around average, and the White Sox have a better overall record(I believe), but I know they have 1 world series appearance at a time when making the world series is harder. My whole contention is the White Sox have played in more meaningful games than the Cubs, and the Cubs have only recently been receiving this national attention in the whole scheme of things. The White Sox have been the better team overall.

Julie B:

No obsession with skating, it's just one of those things that sticks out like a sore thumb in a person's background. You might be the only figure skater out there (Stuck might be the other or Chuck) who can wax intelligently about several sports. So when I think of something smartass to say to you, it tends to revolve around figure skating because it is such a rare quality among sports blog posters and therefore sticks in the ol' bean.

To your point about pitching mechanics, yes, you would think that pitchers would listen, but that's where the lack of respect comes in. Players don't listen to coaches. They watch TV and emulate the Kerry Woods of the world. Current example, Jason Marquis, who actually has pretty good mechanics, but won't listen to his pitching coaches about how to work batters. He has had two of the best pitching coaches in baseball -- Leo Mazzoni (Braves) and Dave Duncan (Cards). Neither could stop Marquis from over thinking every single pitch to every single batter. Marquis has all the tools EXCEPT for what's between the ears. Now he is the Cubs problem for the long term because the team was foolish enough to think Rothschild could correct his flaws (when Mazzoni and Duncan couldn't). Another fairly recent example, Mitch Williams. Horrible mechanics. Had a meteoric rise, followed by a precipitous fall. Want another? How about Mark Pryor (Hey, the Cubs are cornering the market on this)? Decent mechanics, but unable or unwilling to listen to anyone but God knows who. Now he is on his third season on IR. Congrats to you, Mark.

I can go on and on.

Now the contrast are those folks like Glavine, Maddox, Moyer, Nolan Ryan, Mike Mussina, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, et al who have or had excellent mechanics and pitched injury free for most, if not all, of their respective careers. Most of them were quiet, introspective sorts who listened, learned and applied what they learned to game situations. Mussina is so quiet probably very few people realize he's only 39 wins away from 300 in his career.

Nolan Ryan was once heralded as THE pitcher to copy if you wanted picture perfect mechanics. Threw high 90s, low 100s. Pitched into his 40s. Sadly, few pitchers emulate him.

Of today's current crop of pitchers, Mark Buerhle comes the closest to matching the mentality and the mechanics of the above mentioned pitchers. I don't think he has been on the DL either.

Not a figure skater Seedy, but if Julie B. gave me some leotards and let me in the yoga mix, I might bite. That being said, true about the mechanics, very good post. I was gonna disagree about Prior, but after re-reading your post, I definitely agree with you. Prior should listen to someone to tweak his mechanics, and try to reinvent himself to stay off the DL.

Seedy, you made me notice my name rhymes with Stuck, does that make me Chuckinwisconsin?

As long as you don't get on the Rex bandwagon (then you might be referred to as "ChuckWagon"), you can go by any moniker you want.

Leotards? Yoga? Put those on and you might be called, "Stuck in Downward Facing Dog."

Do you really want that?

chuck has been trying to get the rexwagon changed to chuckwagon since for the longest time....where have you been CD\?

hello.;......l;l......o....

Chuck is not only on the rex wagon, he is teenwolfing on the hood of this baby!!!!

No!

Thought it was Chuck Wagon, but I guess it can be REXWAGON as well. Val, there are a good deal of Rex fans on this blog. We argue with the non-Rex fans all the time.

The problem is a few, Hitman for one, kinda overlooks all the good Rex does and the bad Orton does...but he's a rare one, most just don't like him and I can live with that, but they do stay in the realm of reality. Orton isn't accurate, and that is his downfall, he is a stronger presence in the pocket, though.

I'll take a more accutate QB who falls down at times, than an inaccurate QB who can see the field. Usually throwing to the field as well.

Posted by: Chuck | June 18, 2008 02:19 PM

I've been remodeling the Rexwagon in the offseason, Wagoneers. There's now a yoga studio in the back, I have a feeling we're gonna need it this season. Only one rule: no leotards. Let's all chant together.......

OOOOOHHHHHHMMMMMM.............

Namaste.

Yeah, but Rex has 2 show me something this year. No more freebies, Eli evev did it, Rex needs to mentally grow up, lead this team, and win it all already. Pv1, Julie B., Anne, Pete, he's gotta give us something, not the paranoia that everyone is feasting on now. He almost has what he needs, even another SB berth for starters, and let Orton fall on his face. Well, the beard part. BTW, is Orton down if he falls on the beard? I think it can keep him parallel to the ground.

Chuck..no question...and that is why you are allowed to have your hand firmly on the emergency break. I was trying to install one of those Driver's Ed. shotgun breaks, but we went over buget on the Yoga Studio...i guess!

Hey PV1--

What's a "buget"?

How's the shine on your wagon's 20s? Should still have some #8 jerseys to use as buff rags.

When I hit the emer. brake, does Hitman fly out with Orton?

Meant to say Eli even did it...and I'll pull the brakes on any shenanigans, drop Rex off, and clamor for anyone besides the inaccurate Orton, (maybe actually an accurate Orton?)

Go Bears!!!

Hey...wasn't this supposed to be a baseball topic??? I think we need a football blog Roman, we're getting antsy.

no..that would be the ejector seat!

Oh, don't worry, I had the shotgun break, ejector seat and rear and side-view cameras installed as well as the yoga studio. We also now have parking in the South lot and a Smokey Joe.

Of course I meant, "brake." Shut up, I'm on vacation.

Julie B:

Are you have "brakefast" while on vacation?

Ha, I kill myself!