So, Sox fans, are you ready for the return of the Big Hurt? I started a poll on www.suntimes.com/sports, and the big early leader is you guys don't want to touch him. I can't blame you.
Consider the Blue Jays ate millions to release him, although they look at it as addition by subtraction because of his attitude. And they did save $$$ on an incentive not kicking in.
But as good as the Sox have been this season, why potentially interrupt the chemistry by bringing back Frank?
Let Nick Swisher keep the positive energy flowing. Don't disrupt that with a moody slugger, even if he can still hit.
Plus, his divorce from the Sox was so messy, there's no way Ken Williams will consider it.
Is Jim Thome better? Slightly better stats this season and last, but all things being equal, Thome is the better fit.
This is really a non-issue. But since it was brought up, the White Sox should not bring Frank Thomas back. He and the Sox organization would clash and there's no room for his big ego there.
At first I thought you said...
Do you want Frank Black...
and I was like HELL YEAH...I love the PIXIES!!!
Don't even think of it. DO you want to ruin the team atmosphere?
ABSOLUTELY! Big Frank is a Whitesox and should be retired as one.
Yeah Ms.Lee...No room for his Big Ego..cause Ozzies sucks all the air out of the room.
Roman, try to be less biased than Jay. For the fan's sake at least.
It was a mutual parting. The Jays wanted to cut back Thomas' playing time to about 2 starts a week & Thomas wants to play a lot more often than that.
Thomas is never happy with sitting & I don't think Thome or Koney would be either. The A's & Jay's play in a pitcher's park. The White Sox play in what might be the best hitter's park in MLB. Yet Thomas finished 4th in MVP voting w the A's & 23rd w the Jay's. Thome finished 12th with the White Sox & did not earn a nom in 2007.
Thome was struggling until his suspension.
As long as Thome is here, there's no room for Thomas. So this is really a Thome vs Thomas question. I'm picking Frank as I have no doubt Frank can put up MVP #'s again at the Cell.
If there's a team out there willing to take on Thome then trade him & sign Frank.
What - platoon him with Thome against left-handers? Yeah, Frank would be up for that...good teamate when he's going great, BRUTAL when he's not.
I don't know, he's such a giant cry-baby. I don't think we really need him either - we have the best DH in the AL. Plus, I worry that it would be like getting back together with an ex. It sounds like a great idea, but you soon realize why you broke up in the first place.
Gee Keith, your answer is as surprising as mine is sarcastic.
Bculz is officially my guy now that I know he's a Pixies fan.
Frank is my favorite White Sock of all-time by the way, but of course he isn't coming back. Their isn't a spot for him. He wants to be the full time DH wherever he goes and the Sox aren't going to bench Thome for him. Kenny hates Frank anyway. I'm sure he's not even thinking about calling him.
The Big Hurt will probably go down as the best hitter the White Sox ever had. Like Tommy already wrote, Great teammate when things are good, horrible when its not. If we still had Carl Everett as our DH, yes, bring Frank back, no question. Thome and Thomas are pretty much exactly the same, except Thome bats lefty, so no, Thomas should not come back to the Sox....until he wants to retire.
After all that has happened with the departure of Frank Thomas
from the White Sox a few years ago, it doesn't make sense and
you guys know it. This is a "loaded with hate" question. Cease
with this petty, juvenile hatred of Frank Thomas. He has moved
on and so should the rest of us in Chicago. The man has been
gone for 3 years, Christ sakes!!! STOP THE PETTY HATRED!!!
Frank is all over the Chicago White Sox record books and will
go to the hall of fame. No amount of hatred is going to erase
THAT!!
Glendell Latham...in the immortal words of Sgt Hulka..."lighten up Francis". Is anyone saying they "hate" Frank, or that he wasn't a great hitter? Don't think so...they're pointing out the obvious reasons why he's not coming back to the Chisox. You know, like people are answering Romo's question.
After all that has happened with the departure of Frank Thomas
from the White Sox a few years ago, it doesn't make sense and
you guys know it. This is a "loaded with hate" question. Cease
with this petty, juvenile hatred of Frank Thomas. He has moved
on and so should the rest of us in Chicago. The man has been
gone for 3 years, Christ sakes!!! STOP THE PETTY HATRED!!!
Frank is all over the Chicago White Sox record books and will
go to the hall of fame. No amount of hatred is going to erase
THAT!!
White Sox fans think about it.
Thome at $13mil vs Thomas at $400K.
It's a no-brainer decision.
Williams should give Thomas a call & see if he's willing to sign on contingent of Thome being traded.
They are NOT the same player. Against both LHers & RHers Thomas is the better DH.
vs LHers (Career/2007): Thome (.241/.196) vs Thomas (.325/.336)
vs RHers (Career/2007): Thome (.298/.315) vs Thomas (.295/.259)
Some of the best LH'ers in MLB reside in the ALC. We need Thomas more than Thome.
No denying what Frank has meant to the Sox and their record book. That being said plenty of reasons not to bring him back at this point...but only one reason matters. WE DON'T NEED HIM! Last I checked we already had a pretty good DH.
Roman, you're completely missing the point (nickel for every time I've said that......). Chemistry is a ridiculous reason for explaining a team's winning nature invented by the media. Gavin Floyd, John Danks, and Jose Contreras are pitching far better than anyone ever hoped they would. Is that chemistry? Is Gavin Floyd pitching well because he's bestest buddies with Orlando Cabrera in the clubhouse? John Danks isn't pitching better, he's happier because he started a poker night with his good buddies, Boone Logan, Toby Hall, Nick Swisher, and Paul Konerko! That happiness is being thrown into a Happiness Conversion Machine (HCMs, David Eckstein owns 82 of them) that pumps out wins somehow! Chemistry, baby!
No no no, Roman. The uh.....real reason is....uh....they don't need him. They have Jim Thome. Did you think of that? That Frank Thomas doesn't have a place in the starting lineup? If you were implying that Thome should be traded (which you didn't at all), that doesn't make sense either, and here's why.
Right now, Jim Thome is the better player (sorry Juan, you make no sense again, as usual.), and even if trading Thome and signing Thomas gives you more production per dollar spent, it's still a downgrade in 2008, regardless of what prospects you're getting in return. 2008 may be the final year before a prolonged collapse of the White Sox, so it makes sense to do whatever possible to put the best team on the field this season and make a desperate run at the playoffs. Losing the best offensive player on the team does not fit that strategy.
But you're right, Roman, perhaps we should be focusing on ZOMG CHEMISTRY ZOMG!!!!! The Diamondbacks are in first place because everyone on the team likes each other!!! YAAAAAAY!
Roman responds: Hey Noles, no one ever said chemistry is the primary reason a team succeeds, but if you don't think it's a factor you're wrong. Don't you listen to Ozzie or the players on the Sox this season?
But it sounds as if you've played big-league ball, so maybe we should defer to your infinite wisdom.
I've never played either, but I've covered pro teams and been around them long enough to know a selfish prima dona can be a distraction who can negatively influence a team.
But I'm betting you know what a know-it-all with a bad attitude can do to a workplace?
Hey, of course there is no spot for Frank now, but I know he is not done either, I can see the Twins picking him up and the Big Hurt going on his 2nd half rampage, which will influence the outcome of the Sox season in a different way. I hope he lands on his feet but outside the AL central to be safe.
I applaud you Frank, insiders know JP Riccardi (Jays GM) is NOT a man of his word and this is a totally different issue than the sour grapes issue with Kenny Williams. See you in Cooperstown
Oh boy, here comes another Man-Crush. I mean, the Pixies??? Come on! I liked it better when you all had crushes on me. I'm feeling very rejected over here.
Ricky, you need a refresher course in English 101. You're a journalism major and you don't know the proper usage of the word "their." That's a possessive; you should've said "there." Not so good.
Everyone's sports career ends at some point in time. My pitching career ended shortly after my 18th birthday; Thomas's (and Thomes's) will probably end at some time in their late 30's. For both they have had great careers, and should, without doubt get into the BB HOF, albeit not on the first ballot simply because the BB writers are a bunch of egotistical people, with the East
Coast heavily favored, thus EC teams and players are heavily favored.
Thomas is a much better hitter vs RHers than Thome is vs LHers. That holds for their careers but was especially true for 2007.
Thome hit just .196 vs LHers then while Thomas hit .259 vs RHers. Thomas pounded LHer's better than Thome pounded RHers.
How about the Cell? Thomas has a career 1045 OPS there while Thome has a 990 OPS.
Thome costs $13mil vs Thomas costs $400K. Trade Thome if they can & sign Thomas.
Keith LTSS, is that your final answer!
There's no way the Sox or Frank can let this happen. After all the drama when they traded him. Besides I just went to the trop to watch the Sox-Rays game, and the last thing they need is another DH/firstbaseman.
Oh come on Julie I knew that! I just don't re-read over comments always before I post them.
I like Frank ......But lets past on him this time.
He is a hall of famer and should catch on some where.
Who knew this was such a lightning rod issue...
Being Officially Ricky's guy is not a man crush, its a Mike North way of giving me Prop's!
Its just official now.
Thomas was a great hitter, with a sharp eye, and uncanny control at the plate. I read somewhere today that his lifetime batting average, HR's, RBI's and walks combined have been equaled by only three or four other players, and one of them was Babe Ruth.
If Frank had just a little George Foreman in him, he'd have owned this town.
Come to think of it, Urlacher is starting to remind me of Thomas.
Man-crush, man-crush, man-crush.
Best player in Sox history but it will never happen.
Kenny Williams is too stuck on himself and he is enjoying this little moment.
He was not laughing while Thomas had two good years while the White Sox could have used a big bat so this is his time to turn his nose in the air and pat himself on the back. That is what he does best.
I am a Sox fan but I really do not like Williams or Ozzie.
Yes, the Sox should bring back Thomas as long as...
the Bulls bring back Rodman...
the Bears sign Chad Johnson...
the Hawks commit to the Indian...
the Cubs bring back Joe Pepitone...
and Ricky O drops the man-crush thing (Villano, you too).
If nothing else, we would have some colorful characters back in town.
Roman:
1) Sadly, plenty of people have said that chemistry is the primary reason a team succeeds. Did you not read the glut of awful journalism about David Eckstein following the 2006 World Series, or the load of garbage about the Sox following 2005 that completely ignored how awesome that team's pitching was?
2) Chemistry is not very important in baseball. It just isn't. As much as you want to believe otherwise, baseball is like 99% an individual sport. When you are talking about Frank Thomas possibly returning to the White Sox, chemistry is about eleventyhundredtwentieth on the list of important things to consider.
3) In other sports, in which your teammates have a more direct impact on your performance, chemistry is relevant. A basketball team that meshes well has a significant advantage over one that doesn't.
4) I have no idea what you meant by "Don't you listen to Ozzie or the players on the Sox this season?" Yeah, I mean I've heard that there's like, a good attitude, but just because that exists doesn't make it a reason the team is doing well. The Yankees are famous for hiring distracting personalities and they make the playoffs every single year. Aaron Rowand organized a bowling night for the Giants, and from what I've heard, the team is getting along great now that they're minus Barry Bonds. What's their record? Small sample I guess, but talk to me in July.
5) Alright Roman, prove me wrong. Show me some sort of statistical evidence that teammates of "distracting personalities" play baseball worse. This is a claim without proof. Just because you were a beat writer for the Bulls doesn't mean that the clubhouse dynamics you experienced translate between sports. If Nick Swisher and Orlando Cabrera somehow had to work together to get a hit off of C.C. Sabathia, then maybe you'd have something, but no. They go up there with separate bats at separate times and see separate pitches, and no matter how much positive waves Swish can channel into Cabrera from the bench, Cabrera's chances are no better.
We don't need the pouting Thomas!
Hey, Seedy, before I read your post, I was thinking if the Sox sign Frank Thomas, the Bears should look into exhuming Walter Payton!
Aww, Ricky - you're so cute when you get mad!
Wow...talk about bad taste!!
Some Jokes are best left unsaid...and that was one of them.
Which one? The one about Walter or the one about Ricky?
Noles, your ignorance of the ALC makes you red. What has been the most talked about weakness of the White Sox the past 2 yrs? Their inability to hit LH pitching. What has increased the most in the ALC? Quality LH pitching.
Is Thome a cure or a curse for that? A .196A vs LHers in 2007 makes him a curse. Is 2006 #'s weren't that much better.
So yeah we have Thome, but no we don't need Thome. We've got quality bats vs RHers in this lineup. We need a guy who flat out crushes LHers. That's the Big Hurt.
The $ saved by trading Thome wil come in handy near the deadline.
I've played &/or coached everything from LL to college. Chemistry starts on the field & moves thru the lineup.
C-pitcher > 3B-2B > 3B-1B > SS-2B > 2B-1B > SS-1B > OF-2B > OF-SS. Those combinations need to develop good chemistry for a team to be successful. That means picking up the nuances of the players & being able to anticipate their moves. Obviously 2B is the key link in those chains & Uribe's excelled at all of them including cutoff. For the battery it means developing a rhythm while keeping the batters honest. That's tough to do over a full season.
OF's are for the most part interchangeable. No battery should have change the game plan for anticipation of web gems.
Hitting wise, leadoff men are as well. They generally see more strikes than any other spot in the lineup & as such they benefit the least from the man on deck.
The lineup then can be broken into chains of 2-3-4, 5-6-7, 8-9. You naturally want guys with good BA's at 3 & 6 because they will see the most strikes. For the Sox, 2-3-4 has been weak, 5-6-7 great, & 8-9 bad.
Unless Uribe surprises us, Crede will suffer some in a contract year. Quentin is the lucky dog with AJ disrupting rhythms ahead & Crede's power on deck. Dye right now is this team's MVP because he's seeing fewer strikes because of Koney's woes & yet making the best contact when he does.
In terms of Thomas the only question in terms of chemistry that matters is Cab-Thomas-Koney or Cab-Thome-Koney? I think Thomas is the stronger chain. Koney has always been a better hitter w Thomas in front of him.
What? You're like "what has increased the most in the ALC? Quality LH pitching." What do you mean by "increased the most". The most with respect to what? Measured by what? These are claims without proof, and claims that aren't bolstered by the fact that Johan Santana, the best LHP of all, just made his exodus from the ALC.
Now that I'm looking at it, you couldn't be more wrong about the ALC and lefties. The Royals and Twins don't even have a left-handed starter between them! The only quality LH starter on the Indians is Sabathia, and Thome has 2 HR off him already this year. The Tigers have Verlander, and the White Sox have a track record of smoking him. Now behind Verlander, there's lefties Robertson, Willis, and Rogers. The Sox have beaten all three this year with no problem. Is this a reason to panic about the ALC and lefties, especially considering Santana's no longer here? No, no it is not.
Further, batting order doesn't matter very much (there's mathematical proof), and you're making way to big a deal of out of it. The only thing that really matters is putting guys with high OBP near each other in the order, with high OBP batting in front of power.
Juan, I'm curious, do you base the things you say on ANYTHING? The VAST MAJORITY of games the Sox play are NOT against a quality left-handed pitcher. Why do you want to dump Thome and have Thomas so that we're better in those games and worse the rest of the year?
It's honestly sad that you keep desperately trying to argue with the things I say, and I wish you'd stop, because all the clearly unresearched, evidence-less claims you throw out here are honestly starting to make my head hurt.
The Jays informed Thomas over the weekend he won't be getting the 375 AB's he needs for a $10mil option to kick in for 2009. Name me one player that wouldn't be fuming over that.
If Thome reaches 500 AB's, the White Sox owe him $12mil in 2009. If not they can buy him out for $3mil. Philly won't be paying a dime.
If there's any team willing to take on Thome's deal trade him & sign Thomas.
To play along would only be party to the distasteful joke.
I believe the Cubs, will take him. They need his baby fat to nurture all the veinly narcisstic premodonnas that get injured when the wind blows ever so slightly. Plus, there's that Steve Stone thing they have to square-up.
GOOOOOOOOOOOO CUUUUUBBBBBIIIIIEEEESSSS!
P.S. no need to point out to me that 'veinly' is not a word.
I havent had time to post lately. But when Frank left, something special also left with him. Folks claim it was Rowand, but it may have been BIG FRANK! This guy can be a lightening rod and still produce. I am convinced that our clubhouse needs a surly, contankerous juggernaut - ESPECIALLY, when we are slumping! How did we like the good-SOX last year???? But they are nice guys right???
Frank has some problems but he is a clean ballplayer who can put it on the board with the best of them. And he has EARNED the right to retire as a Whitesox. How many season have we had where he was the lone bright light? I was watching many days just for his at bats. Kenny can produce an incentive-laden contract and get the Big Hurt back home so we can have a Yankee/Boston-like lineup. Sometimes a signing is just business. Bring-Hurt-Back! Bring-Hurt-Back! Bring-Hurt-Back! Bring-Hurt-Back!
Thomas is the best fit for adding Jerry Owens as well because Jerry's weakness is Thomas' strength. Owens at Char OBP(vs RH .435/vs LH .278). He's got 5SB so his legs are fine.
Thomas w the WSox is an 1100 OPS slugger vs LHers. We don't need Owens then. Against RHers Thomas is an 800OPS guy now which means Ozzie should play him based on matchups. Those ab's would come from Koney & Quentin.
This arrangement helps Thomas maintain his over .300BA on his quest for 600HR which should make him a 1st ballot HOFer.
If Thomas is agreeable to that & the WSox can trade Thome I fail to see the downside. They save about $10mil in the swap now & another $12mil on Thome in 2009. With Swisher able to take over 1B they can even think about trading Koney & free up another $13mil.
The best contract to offer Thomas is one that makes him balance team goals vs his own. That means a fair but not great base each year & up to $4mil a yr in post-season incentives. If he's on the 25 man roster pay him $1mil for the ALDS, $1mil for the ALCS, $1mil for the WS, & $1mil for becoming a World Champion.
As for Thomas in 2008, Riccardi's a fool. If he didn't want to pay Thomas in 2009 he should have traded him. An 8W-7L streak that incl 3 1R L's saw Thomas contributed 7R & 11RBI on 10H, & 10W. After that he went into an 0-8 slump where Padilla(3.12) K'd him twice. The Jays have since fallen to 10W-11L.
Julie pines: "Come on! I liked it better when you all had crushes on me. I'm feeling very rejected over here."
(Blatant plagiarism to follow):
____________________________________
I'm feelin'
you're being neglected.
Well, I'm expecting somebody.
Instantly ?
No, but any minute now.
Any minute? Some people live a lifetime
in a minute. What are you doin' right now?
I'm waiting for him.
Would you mind if we waited with you, you know, just to keep the
womanizers from bothering you?
No, I don't mind.
Thank you.
You know, I detect...a fragrance in the air.
Don't tell me what it is.
Ogilvie Sisters soap.
Ah, that's amazing.
I'm in the amazing business!
It is Ogilvie Sisters soap. My grandmother gave me
three bars for Christmas.
I'm crazy about your grandmother. I think she'd have liked
Hitman too.
Don't pay any attention to him.
What's your name ?
Julie.
Julie? I'm Mark. This here is ... This is Hitman.
(Yes. She likes you.)
Hitman's having a difficult weekend. He's going through a crisis. How does he look like he's holding up ?
He looks fine to me.
Oh! She does like you, Hitman.
So, Julie, ah... do you tango ?
No. I wanted to learn once, but ...
But ?
But Culzie didn't want to.
Culzie; the one you're waiting for?
Culzie thinks the tango's hysterical.
Well, I think Culzie's hysterical.
Don't pay any attention to him. Did I already say that ?
What a beautiful laugh.
Thank you, Mark.
Would you like to learn to tango, Julie?
Right now?
I'm offering you my services... free of charge.
What do you say ?
Ah...
I think I'd be a little afraid.
Of what?
Afraid of Culzie wetting his pants. I can't afford the dry cleaning bills.
Juan....typed up a very long response that Roman decided not to post. I'm not going to waste my time and do it again, because I have no idea if it'll get posted / what I did last time to deny postage. Basically, you overrate the importance of the batting order, and your claims that 1) the Sox biggest weakness is hitting LHP and 2) the ALC has increased good LHP a ton in recent years, are completely unfounded. Johan Santana just left the ALC. Minnesota and Kansas City don't have a single left-handed starter between them. The Sox crush Verlander. Unless you're that really that terrified of Sabathia, Lee, Robertson, Rogers, and Willis, there's no reason for Frank.
Owens Fan - couldn't agree more. Owens's weakness is Thomas's strength.
Owens's weakness: baseball.
Thomas's strength: baseball
Mark my words. Barring injury to Swisher, Quentin, or Dye, Jerry Owens is going nowhere near the everyday starting job this year. That's not only a fact, but a major relief.
Dumb
How often do WSox face LHers? In 2007 they were 16-28 vs LH starters so that's 44 gms or 27%. Of course that doesn't include LH relievers.
Thome 2006 vs LH (39%AB, 236A, 715OPS) vs RH (61%AB, 321A, 1203OPS).
Thome 2007 vs LH (33%AB, 196A, 664OPS) vs RH (67%AB, 315A, 1123OPS).
Calling 61-67% a VAST MAJORITY makes as much sense as saying ORDER doesn't matter much in a lineup. :)
What does make sense is that managers will look to a Power LH reliever to get Thome out in ANY game.
Thome CL+L 2007 216A, 802OPS vs Power 2007 (SP+RP) 231A, 781OPS
Thomas CL+L 2007 291A 843OPS vs Power 2007 (SP+RP) 308A, 946OPS
I wish I had access to these two guys vs relievers in general because it would really drive the points home.
1) The VAST MAJORITY of Thome's damage vs RHers comes against weak RH starters.
2) A team can drop Thome down to a below avg slugger after 6IP w LH relievers.
3) Thomas is a tough out in any situation.
So why should we trade Thome & sign Thomas? Well if that wasn't enough there is the WSox themselves.
2006 WSox vs RH: Ozuna (348A, Koney 310A, Dye 305A, AJ 304A, Crede 288A, Uribe 244A).
2007 WSox vs RH: Owens 274A, 2008 WSox vs RH: Quentin 277A.
As you can see the WSox have plenty of guys who can hit for avg &/or power vs RH thus diminishing the need for Thome. It's as if the WSox are spending $25mil over 2008-2009 for overkill because it sure isn't to win games.
Funny!
Now that's diversity for you:
"Dumb!" & "Funny!" at the same time.
I'm partial to "funny" myself.
BC, maybe that's what we can call our radio show. I call "Funny!"
Interesting. I pounce on your "ALC has had a major increase in starting pitching" claim, and you are struck without a response. Rather you change the subject. How typical.
You did actually make one pretty nice point, (savor this moment, because it'll probably never happen again) I'm giving you credit for it. I didn't realize that the percentage of times Thome faced a lefty was quite that high. But it's still not the majority, and it's not like we're just blowing the opponents out in every game vs RHPs. Thome's bat is more important than any other in preserving that dominance.
Now, time to see where you went wrong! I'm sorry to say, but cherry-picking batting average is inadequate statistical evidence (and most anything Ozuna and Owens do is just empty batting average anyway). I'm going to take the liberty of looking at PECOTA's platoon splits for White Sox players.
Konerko vs LHP: .281/.374/.504
Konerko vs RHP: .262/.346/.458
Dye vs LHP: .279/.357/.506
Dye vs RHP: .260/.324/.466
So far, it definitely seems nice that we have a righty masher in our 3-4-5 to complement two guys who are better vs lefties! Let's keep playing, shall we?
Cabrera vs LHP: .282/.345/.396
Cabrera vs RHP: .264/.314/.359
Crede vs LHP: .266/.328/.442
Crede vs RHP: .247/.298/.403
Quentin vs LHP: .276/364/.457
Quentin vs RHP: .259/.342/.426
Uribe vs LHP: .263/.317/.444
Urive vs RHP: .244/.292/.403
Oh geez Juan, this doesn't look good for your point! 6 White Sox starters have career tendencies to hit lefties better than righties! Swisher is pretty close to a wash...he gets on base more vs lefties, has more power vs righties. And obviously Pierzynski hits righties way better. But this lineup is perfectly capable of damaging LHPs without Thomas.
You did such a nice job of breaking down Thome's platoon split. I was genuinely impressed, and didn't expect that from you. But then you started to cherry-pick batting averages (an awful measurement stat to begin with) for players when the numbers supported you, and as a result, you completely ignored the truth that Dye, Konerko, Cabrera, Quentin, Uribe, and Crede are better hitters against lefties. You're wrong. Deal with it.
Thomas is an Athletic again for $337K.
Beane: "He looks in fantastic shape. Obviously, we had a great year from him, and he was a great influence on the club."
Ummm....not so good......i think the audience would get confused.
How about...we call the show
The Velvet Hammer
Frankie's back in gold and green, the ugliest team colors ever seen.
Last night he walked and struck out twice, I'm glad he does not have head lice.
(I needed a rhyme.)
The story's OVAH, as Hawk would say-
until July 3, when Oakland comes our way.
On that night when Frank steps to the box
He'll hear a cheer from fans of the Sox
We'll tip our caps and give him a shout
Then yell for Buehrle to strike him out.
Now I need to go train for the run on May 18. Bye, ya'll.
Some people might get the wrong idea about what type of show it is with that name.
The Velvet Bandwagon?
OMG...wow!!!
PECOTA's career splits are good for historical comparisons like comparing Thome's career to Thomas'. They are worthless for projection debates. That's what we are having if you didn't notice.
Projection debates are dependant on last yr & performance over 3 yrs. Why? Because everyone knows 3 yrs is the best period for measuring consistent improvement or decline in a player.
It's a fact that the current WSox have hit RHers better than LHers over the past 3 yrs.
As for the ALC LHP debate, I did respond. You just keep ignoring both SP & RP. While Thome faces LHers overall 33-39% of the time that % rises to 42-46% vs RP. That's because after 6in, MLB is mostly a game of matchups. Manager's play the splits more.
The ALC LHP debate was a general argument reflecting 2005-2007. It's pretty much a fact & other columnists have written about it. You can't make the argument for 2008 yet because we've played less than 15% of the season.
In any case, I'm curious as to how 2008 might progress in that respect so I'll get back to you after further analysis.
Frank is back in colors of green and gold, not the most flattering for a man that old.
walked once and struckout twice today,
that of course is why he's no longer a Jay.
there you go,replace you beignning, and we have finalized the 'Allegory of Hurt'.
-no charge
I never said squat about LH SP in the ALC. I talked about LH pitching in general vs Thome.
It's too tedious to compile all those pitchers so instead I'll make use of an obvious assumption:
In general a LHB is a tougher out for a RHer than a LHer therefore what a team does vs LHBs is a fair measure of the quality of it's LH pitching.
OPSvs CW: LHB (2008 819, 2007 791) RHB (2008 579, 2007 761)
OPSvs KC: LHB (2008 731, 2007 782) RHB (2008 742, 2007 786)
OPSvs DT: LHB (2008 799, 2007 752) RHB (2008 743, 2007 773)
OPSvs CI: LHB (2008 728, 2007 738) RHB (2008 769, 2007 722)
OPSvs MT: LHB (2008 682, 2007 814) RHB (2008 770, 2007 707)
Obviously the CW doesn't count vs Thome. What do we see? MT improved dramatically vs LHB, KC's improved, & CI marginally. The team we love to smack around (DT) has declined. So Thome's strength lends us to overkill the Tiggers. On the flip side, our two toughest foes (CI,MT) have declined vs RHB & our two weakest show improvement. So again we need Thome less this yr than we did last yr.
Likewise I never said squat about what a handful of other WSox do vs LHers. That's irrelevant to the Thome overkill debate. They have to make up for Thome's ineptitude after all. What matters is what they do vs RHers & if they do enough that Thome is overkill.
What we see in 2008 so far is the same as 2006. Dye, AJ, Quentin, Crede are doing more than enough damage vs RHers. In 2006 it was Mackowiak getting the hits that Quentin is now. As for Uribe he had 17HR vs RHers then. With Swisher you get a guy that hits for power from both sides of the plate. What a great trade by Kenny! In 2007 Swisher hit 16HR as a LHB w a 451S. That's plenty good. It's a bonus that as a RHB he hit 6HR w a 464S. In 2007 OCab hit 299A vs RHers & 348A w runner's on. That's plenty good as well.
He is going to find that Hall of Fame stroke and the Sox will regret that. Our bats last year were TERRIBLE. Frank would have been a cheap fix. In Tony's voice "I-NO-LIKE-IT MAIN".
Thomas is unavailable so who else can the WSox look to for Thome's ab's vs LHers? Josh Fields.
Fields was Thomas like vs LH in 2007 w 325A/11HR/1060OPS in 106AB. Unfortunately he's no where close to Thomas vs RH w 667OPS/267AB. That's why he's in Char & Crede's playing 3B. Well that, & the fact that Fields is a below avg 3B.
In any case he's more than suitable to DH & hit for Thome vs LHers. He'll get plenty of ab's vs RHers as well because Thome's avg'd just 290AB vs them over 2006-2007.
I think Josh is more likely to improve his fielding more by watching Crede live & in person & practicing with the team.
Juan,
I'd like to point out that you have yet to show me that White Sox hitters as a whole hit RHP better than LHP. This is because it's not true. You're just tossing billions of other stats not relevant to that focal point. Historical platoon splits are incredibly relevant to projecting future platoon splits. A guy who has historically hit LHP better is not typically going to have this insane conversion to hitting RHP better. If you don't think that's true....well...well let's just say that wouldn't suprise me one bit.
Also, you keep harping on Thome's strength only helping us pound the Tigers. I understand this doesn't take into account the bullpen, but 60% of the starters on the Tigers are left-handed. He faces more LHP against the Tigers than against any other AL Central team. Thome has hit the Tigers well, but his numbers against them are nearly identical over the past 3 years to his numbers against Kansas City and Minnesota.
Thome is our best hitter. Get over it.
Looks like we need a ruler to settle this thing between Juan and Noles once and for all.
Lik a Judge or a 12 inch stick?
Noles, put your glasses on when you read!
I have stated twice now, it's irrelevant whether the OTHER WSox players hit LHP better than RHP. What matters is whether they hit RHP good enough to do w/out Thome. The answer is resoundingly yes.
By no stretch of the imagination has Thome proven to be our best hitter in 2008. In 2007 he proved to be our best feast or famine hitter w 314outs in 432ab's. The White Sox would be fools to pick up his $13m opt in 2009. The one thing I agree with Hawk on is that when you hit is far more important than what you hit.
But I wouldn't expect someone who think's order in a lineup is irrelevant to understand that :)
As for Thomas, he went 3/3 last night as the A's pounded Garland & the Angels.