Full Court Press

I like them both and wouldnt want to see them traded.

But, we need a superstar who can score at will.

Gordon is the most expendable of the lot. Both Thabo and Thomas are capable of averging double doubles. Gordon is one dimensional. Both Thabo and Thomas can play more than one position effectively. Gordon is not a ball handler at all. Deng's carrer to this point has been ladened with injuries, but that doesn't mean that will continue throughout his career. If Tyrus continues to develope that 17 foot jumper he poses many threats to defenses. Thabo is beginning to put up offensive numbers simuliar to Gordon's. Unlike Wallace Tyrus is an inside threat that can also hit free throws. I was disappointed that Gray injured his hand last night I was looking forward to seeing him and Tyrus play more minutes together. Thabo has also shown some good patience down the strecth lately that Gordon does not display. Bottom line is I'd trade Gordon and Deng before I would Thabo and Tyrus. Or Gordon and Hinrich for a legit point guard.

Roman responds: See, this is what I mean and why I started the thread. Last year, nobody wanted to trade Deng, and few would have dealt Gordon. It's a "what have you done for me lately" mentality that makes it tough to be a GM.

ive always said Thabo is like a slower Kobe...but you cant teach someone that killer instinct....and I just dont know if he has it.

Ben Wallace and Ben Gordon both need to go. They are the only two players who stop your offense. When they get the ball, it completely disrups everything we're doing. Wallace for obvious reasons, he's absolutely terrible. He should never hold on to the ball for more than 1 second, but he always does. Ben gordon, is a bit different. When he gets the ball, he just stands there and dribbles and our offense comes to a stand still. He's a good player, but not when your trying to run an offense. It's not a coincidence that Kirk isn't nearly as good when Gordon plays.

How about the Gordon and Wallace for Redd and Villaneuva? We would instantly become a great team.

It truly remains to be seen with both of these guys.

With Thabo, I have yet to see enough consistency shooting the ball. For his career the guy is only averaging 1.00 points per shot, which is terrible for a SG/SF.

Also, he turns the ball over a lot, often looking too much like like Kirk, in a bad way.

All Tyrus needs to do is develop his mid-range J and decide to play smart bball, i.e., as Boylan says, play to his strengths.

If - and right now, it's a big if - he can do that, his overall productivity probably would exceed not only Thabo's but Hinrich's, Gordon's and Deng's.

After what has happened this year, everyone is on the block. Even with that said I believe Thabo and Deng should stay. Both Ben's (one no offense, one no defense) need to go. Kirk dribble way too much and sometimes has very bad shot selection. but back to the question - the only untouchable (if there is such a thing) is Nocione. I am starting to believv Pax is too attached. Which could be their downfall.

Are we watching the same players? If you can get anyone good for anyone on the Bulls you take it. Do not judge players on the basis of a team with no size or heart that has lost 28 of 29. Watch the Bulls when they play a good team, who can hold on to the ball and score with the game on the line.........

Oh yeah, we don't have one of those. Only Ben Gordon has come close to filling that role and he can't play defense.

Thabo is the absolute keeper in the backcourt, over Gordon and Hinrich. I am sure that Bonehead Boylan will cut Thabo's minutes down to the bone when Gordon, Hinrich,Duhon and Deng are all healthy. Thabo only got his chance because they were all hurt at once. Bonehead didn't really give him a chance when only one or two of them were out. The real decision is between Gordon and Hinrich. If Hangdog Hinrich was a real point guard the decision would be simple, but he isn't, he makes way too many mistakes. However, Gordon is only a sixth man scorer, with no ballhandling skils. Thabo cannot be the primary ballhandler, so the solution is to trade Hinrich, and or Gordon for a true point, even though so few are actually available. Thabo should be our starting 2 guard and should be close to untouchable on Deng's level. His rebounding, defense and disruptive ability make him unique, he has the look of a young Pippen.

Thomas is another story, he looks like a young dumb gangly puppy still tripping over his own feet. That said we already know what Gordon and Hangdog are about, so today I would still keep Thomas and try to deal Bambi(Gordon) and Hangdog(Hinrich).

Deng, Thabo, Noah, Thomas, Gray, and maybe Nocioni are the future, and hopefully Curry, everyone else is trade bait.

If you look they are 2 guys who average less than 40 percent from the field. What is it that is impressive about them? the fact they can run and jump? You need SCORING SKILL to be a star in the NBA. Jordan in his rookie year had a FG% higher than 50 percent and that was before he learned how to shoot. Why would one ever expect these 2 to become stars?

If you look they are 2 guys who average less than 40 percent from the field. What is it that is impressive about them? the fact they can run and jump? You need SCORING SKILL to be a star in the NBA. Jordan in his rookie year had a FG% higher than 50 percent and that was before he learned how to shoot. Why would one ever expect these 2 to become stars?

I think Tyrus is still tradeable with Noah around. Sure he has glimpes where he is terrific but he also has some big clunkers and who knows if he will ever clue in for a whole season. I think Thabo is someone worth keeping and watching. There is no one else on the roster like him and I think he makes Kirk better by allowing Kirk to play with people his size. BG7 is moveable and i would have never had him as an untouchable sure he can shoot but what else? Deng is tougher, I would think it has to be the right package for him but if he is gone we have Noce who can and is providing similar numbers.

If you're talking about burning this year, and probably '08-'09 also, to develop these two, it may be a worthy gamble. Thabo seems to play just as hard and dedicated as Deng, and Thomas' upswings MIGHT BE a notch over Gordon. Still not sold on Tyrus until he learns the value of teamwork and the sacrifices involved to the commitment of not only bettering yourself, but those around you as well. If you don't flat out just LOVE the game, at least be as COMPETITIVE WITHIN YOURSELF as possible.

Ben Gordon is one helluva sixth man, instant offense, but I could live without him.

Luol Deng may just be a little too fragile for a long term, expensive investment. Gotta love his attitude and work habits though. Is that enough?

No N.B.A. team in ions has flourished without a shining star. We can't be excited about anything until that beacon shows up to lead the way. If and when that happens, our young core should shore things up to put us in the Elite Four in 18 months.

We got Scottie(Thabo), and Horace(Thomas) grooming, but where's Mikey(?)? He'll lead us! He leads everything.

I see a lot of talk of getting rid of Gordon, but that is not likely since he does not have a contract. He's soon to be a free agent and with this year's performance may have to take less than Bulls offered earlier in the year. Trade options have always been Duhon, and Hinrich. Wallace will also be movied next year if Thomas develops, but that is a big IF right now...Keep Deng though he is brittle but consistent when in the line-up! Thabo stays but we need Gordon to off-set Thabo's lack of true offense in the backcourt.

Roman responds: See, this is what I mean and why I started the thread. Last year, nobody wanted to trade Deng, and few would have dealt Gordon. It's a "what have you done for me lately" mentality that makes it tough to be a GM.

I disagree Roman, my aguement wasn't what have you done for me lately. I was arguing that both Tyrus and Thabo are more versatile (especially in the case of Gordon). Although Gordon is capable of coming in and jacking up 20 points in a hurry he can not create his own shot and in a tight game he's a defenses target and usually throws up a 3 ball brick or loses the ball to a double team and he can play only one position not to mention his defense is suspect. When Gordon plays off the ball he's an excellent shooter but when he starts dribbling at the top of the arc I cringe and watch with only one eye partially open. I don't think I could say it better than Navarro did about Deng.

This post is not about the topic: But please read and not dismiss

There are a few sports posters to Roman's blog who have political comments, opinions and ideologies. How about we meet over on Lynn Sweet's blog for some discourse? She's getting off pretty easy with all those blog entries and not much commenting about them don't you think?

It is great that Thabo and Tyrus are getting minutes so they can be evaluated. They both show plenty of potential. One of the remaining 3 guards have to go. Duhan or Gordon are the logical choices to go. Gordon would probably get the better personnel in return. Is either Gordon or Deng a #1? I don't think so. They can't even make the woeful Eastern All Star team.

Yup - Gordon & Wallace need to pack their bags. Gordon can't do anything but shot a jump shot. Scores a lot of points but lacks any other skills. Wallace is lazy and washed up. He should give the Bulls their money back.

We need a BIG TOE!

Quick comments

Tyrus deserves to play a lot of minutes and so does Thabo. I think Tyrus is the only untouchable on this roster. He has star quality and only lacks consistent minutes. Thabo is good but not a star at least yet.

Great post
Boylan is an idiot. One game we'll see a lot of one of the young guys then the next, he rides the bench. If it weren't for injuries, we'd all be talking about how sucky Thomas and Thabo are. We would be criticizing them based on their three to five minutes a game, if that. Another thing, I was watching the game against the Hornets. I know there is no I in team, but I know if Hinrich wasn't playing, we would have won that game. Can you say shoot on a fastbreak and don't even let the rest of your team get down court before throwing up a clanker. Someone told Hinrich his fieldgoal percentage is like 75%. Geez, give up the damn ball!! Yes keep Tyrus, keep Thabo, keep Joakim, keep Aaron, keep Jameson if he promise to urinate in the privacy of his own home from now on.........
I don't care about the others.....Hinrich, Duhon, Smith, Wallace, Deng.......

Maybe Gordon and Noce

Scott said "How about the Gordon and Wallace for Redd and Villaneuva? We would instantly become a great team."

Uhhhh....do the Milwaukee Bucks have any say in this? Yes? No?

It's people like you that make GMs frustrated when people complain about the things they do. The crap you suggest just isn't possible.

Craig, Gordon and Deng are RESTRICTED free agents at the end of this season. There is an enormous difference in restricted and unrestricted free agency. The Bulls have the option to match any offer and keep them both or match the offer and sign and trade them. in either case they are not going to be lost without compensation. Under restricted free agency they also become more attractive as sign and trade bait.
Wallace may be harder to move with his inflated contract but package him with a sign and trade with Gordon and it could be possible to get a quality point guard and a draft pick or two.

Our biggest need is a point guard. I say that because we have a stockpile of 6'9-7ft players, and noone to get them the ball. We will only be as good as our playmaker. Send Kirk Hinrich packing. He will not want to be a backup so move this guy.

Or next biggest need is a shooting guard. WE DONT HAVE ONE. Thabo is more like Scottie and versatile, but he is not the prototype 2guard. We need a bonefide scorer like Monte Ellis, Brandon Roy, or Andre Igodala. I would keep Ben Gordon as a 6th man unless he sweetens a trade deal.

And our final need is a true Center. People think we are all set with Gray, but he is not ready. But folks think he is the next big thing, but I dont. He has backup written all over him like Chris Kamen. Bring in a young stud at Center. A shotblocking Athlete and start Gray when Wallace is gone with Noah as the 2nd or 3rd option.

A true point guard will show you who to keep and who to get rid of. Deng and Thabo are your 3 spot. Noah and Thomas are your 4 spot.

If we address these needs, there becomes no need for Gordon, Smith, Duhon, Griffin, Curry, Noch, or Nichols. Of the lot of them I keep Gordon and Noch if they are willing to come off the bench.

Wallace, Hinrich, Gordon, Smith, Noch, Griffin - all trade bait.

I don't know why everyone wants to get rid of both Bens. I understand the Wallace sentiment, but if the Bulls trade him, they will end up with another bad contract and most likely a scrub. Chicagoans aren't the only ones who recognize Wallace's best days are behind him. What Boylan needs to do is limit his minutes and let Tyrus get on the floor more. As for Gordon, he is by far the best scorer on the team and a top 25 scorer in the league. So who replaces Gordon's points if you trade him? Certainly not Thabo or Kirk, who has a nack for taking bad shots down the stretch. I like Thabo and Tyrus. I would really like to have seen Gordon and Thabo in the backcourt at the same time. With the trade deadline approaching that may never happen. This is the second time this year Gordon has been out for a prolonged period of time with an injury (preseason ankle during contract discussions). It makes me wonder if there is something going on between Gordon and Bulls management that never sees the light of day. Only 5 days until the trade deadline.

A 6' 7" guard, with those defensive skills that is showing he can give you about 15 pts. per night. You've got to be kidding me! A keeper for sure. This reminds me of when the Bulls figured out BJ Armstrong was too small to guard the likes of Penny Hardaway, etc. and finally got Ron Harper. Gordon has the most trade value. I'm trying to think of the last team to win a championship with a guard Ben Gordon's size. Any help?

Tyrus, barely at age 21 has shown flashes of brilliance. He's just too young to give up on.

A side note: When the Bulls traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler and Brian Skinner, Bill Walton called it "the worst trade in NBA history." The 2nd worst trade just might be when the Bulls traded Tyson Chandler (to make room for Ben Wallace) for PJ Brown and JR Smith.

Not everybody didn't want to trade Deng last year. I've always said I would have included him to land Gasol. It made sense. Still does. You have Noc to replace Deng in the starting lineup, could have had Gasol play C, Wallace at PF, Noc at SF, and Gordon & Hinrich at guards. Wallace played best in Detroit where he had some offensive big man help down low. I knew it would be risky, but even last year I don't think most people thought Deng's upside was enormous. When you have a gapping hole as big as we had/have on the offensive end down low, you make the move. Especially when SF is a much easier spot to fill and you already have a solid player in Noc to fill in.

Anyway, at this point trade anyone on the team if the trade makes sense and can upgrade you at positions of weakness (big guard and scoring big man). No one on this team is too good to be considered in a deal.

A lot of great posts again.
If I was to pick two people on the Bulls who could become all stars, it would be Deng and Thabo. The trade deadline is Thursday so we will see what Paxson has up his sleeve and what others think of the Bulls players.
I still think Kirk is a keeper as the combo guard(so does the rest of the league!). Thabo is the sg(too many turnovers for the point). Duhon is a back-up pg. Deng and Nocioni are the sf. Tyrus, Noah, Gray and Smith are the 4,5s. So I think Ben Wallace and Gordon are the trade bait. In a perfect world you get solid pg(Williams and that motorcycle) another big guard and another young 4/5. Four man rotation in the backcourt would be great. I like Lowry and Navarro from Memphis for guards, Salmons from the Kings or Petrus from Golden State, and Kirilenko from Utah. We are so close, just need to get more from Gordon and Wallaces replacement and then develop chemistry. There are not a lot of teams missing 2 or 3 starters that have played as well as the Bulls. Boylan and Brown have done an excellent job. I do think Wallace would fit better with GS than Webber.

Drew sez: "No one on this team is too good to be considered in a deal."

That's it, in a nutshell.

Dean sez: "A lot of great posts again. ------> (snip)"

Sorry Dean, but you lost me after that first sentence. You should have quit while you were ahead.

Roman, I'll put it bluntly. You can't win an NBA championship without all-stars. We have none. They are all expendable.

If you do not have an all-star than your team is either re-building or just spinning it's wheels. Re-building teams don't get past the first round.

If you're team is just spinning it's wheels then you dump the most expensive players. Right now that's Wallace, Gordon, & Deng. Again Gordon & Deng have both turned down new offers (JR stated) over $55mil.

I'm not a fan of wheel-spinning teams so trade the trio. That would make the Bulls a rebuilding team. So be it. Better now than later.

There are some good posts out there but I would like to see AK47 or Iguola in a Bulls uniform but AK47 would make them dangerous now, kinda give a #1 or #2 seed something to think about. Kirelinko can make his own shot and hold his own on defense could defend a 3 or a 4. Lowery seems to be expendable now too. There are some small things that could set the table for the end of this season and for next. Come on Pax think about it.

As a Bulls fan, the thing that scares me the most is the realization that they're ALL expendable.

I look at their roster and ... for the life of me, I can't come up with a single player that they couldn't live without.

This isn't good.

Aren't we going a little over the top calling one of these guys a "difference maker" and the other having "freakish size/skills"?

They're 2 fringe players on a bad team...

We need a Superman!!

The one person I was secretly holding out talking about was Bibby. Udrih held his own very well during Bibbys' injury and I felt Mike may be good addition at a reasonable price. Right about the price part, wrong about the location. Pax must have a broken trigger finger. No STAR to be picked up at this juncture but a solid point is something we could have used. One more face out there at a reasonable price to be had. Keeping my fingers crossed and keys silent on this one too. Seems it doesn't take much to jinx the Chicago Bulls, or should I say, squeezing water out of a rock is easier than getting our owner to spend some money for the fans.

Mark, we won 49 last year and supposedly a year stronger and wiser!?!?! No one is giving us players unless it's Memphis. This Gordon thing, look at how many we are scoring without him and so many more in the paint. You develop your all-stars usually, we will probably not get Kobe until he is 34 years old. My take has been we were too small at the sg and continually pushed for Thabo, it happened finally. I live out of Chicago(Ventura, CA) and here and see a lot of different press. I and others think Skiles had a little too much attitude, but he pushed this group. Thabo and Hinrich are considered keepers, Gordon is a sixth man, Wallace has lost some of his skills. We still have a solid, young core when motivated, can be dangerous. We need a trade of the Bens. Don't have to agree, just my opinion. Hey, it's off to the beach it's in the 70s........ got to toughen up my skin....

I am a undying bulls fan, but let me set the record straight. You have to trade Wallace because he is an absolute bust for the price, but because of that price he's not an easy trade. Second, Gordon has to go because while he can shoot the ball well at times his inconsistency and the fact that he doesn't play defense makes him expendable. Third, eventhough I don't like Nocioni he had been the consistent player and has to stay. Fourth, you can't trade Deng because no matter the injuries he is a good slasher that if teamed with a 2 guard that can score is unstoppable. Finally, I'm by opinion the bulls will keep Kirk because he is a pure pg, they will try to trade Wallace, Gordon, and and a draft pick(because there will be no one of value after the 6th pick) for a scorer, I.e. Vince Carter or T-Mac and try to jumpstart the team.

I agree with DJSSR - I would only trade Wallace for someone like AK47. That is the deal Pax should make and Utah. They will need Wallace to deal with Shaq, Duncan and the rest. Wallace would be a great pickup for them with Boozer in the post...um.

I also agree with Navarro - Bibby is the guy we desperately needed. A true point can flourish on this team.

And Basketball Jones is right. You dont move Gordon unless you get something you really need. He is trade bait ONLY because he won't sign. You definitely move Deng with Noch, Thomas and Thabo there to fill in. And yes, he might develop into a perenial allstar, that is why you get what YOU need in that trade. A BONEFIDE SHOOTING GUARD.

Thabo and Tyrus are guys who should continue to keep getting playing time. The more reps they get the better. These two guys can be valuable in the future for this team. I don't know what paxson can do now as far as trades. All the big names seem to be off the market. I have trade that people may disagree with but what do we have to lose. I say trade for T-Mac and try to get Okafor in the offseason. Hopefully T-Mac will get the urge to want a championship and play with some passion. Okafor is a 20 and 10 man plus a big body down low. Then we will have a big lineup that can give teams problems. Thabo run the point, Mcgrady, Deng, Joe Smith and Okafor at the 5. That would be dangerous. If we can't keep Deng we will still be okay.

We need guards that can drive to the bucket and finish and a stud in the post. When the game is on the line, the great one's find a way to get to the basket and score or draw a foul. Plus, they are capable of causing problems for the opposing team with their defense, leadership, and tenacity. Who do we have?

I like Thabo. Earlier in the season, I wondered where his game went, but the apparent problem is the lack of playing time he recieves. I think Thabo, Tyrus, and Noah should get solid minutes from here on out. They are our future. Forget this season. It is a wrap. Why would we back into the playoffs only to ge swept in the first round. This season is over. We might as well focus on the future.

I would keep Deng, but he is not untouchable. Nobody on this team is deserving of that label. Hinrich and Wallace must go! The only way I keep Gordon is if he accepts a salary around 7m/year and agrees to come off the bench. Hinrich doesn't realize his jumper is whack and he has no finish around the basket and he is not a good facilitator. He is a backup and not deserving of his contract.

Keep Deng, Noah, Thabo, Tyrus, and Noc. Gordon stays if he accepts a lessor role. Gray is a backup at best!

At this point, the only young player I would choose to let go of is Hinrich.. Deng/Gordon are very good players, and I can still see them fitting within a good offensive scheme for the Bulls.. I think in order to make this work, they would need to change the schemes to fit the talent.. I've found it hard to believe that the Bulls amassed the talent that they have only to not create a system that makes sense for all of the parts.. I like Thabo, but I see him as a better bench player than a starter (even though he has proved lately that he can make a difference)..

Tyrus is a beast.. More consistent play will come with more consistent minutes.. I find it funny that he receives so much criticism for his up and down play, but look at his age and the type of game we all knew he had entering the NBA.. It screamed "up and down" until he became more familiar with the position and the game.. That's starting to happen now that he has put in more work before and after games..

The Bulls would be idiots to trade away that talent.. Now Wallace?? Good riddance..