Aramis Ramirez and cockfighting

No. Find something else to stir people up. Are we going to be upset if Asian players eat cat or dog also?

Don't care.

my perception of aramis has changed. he's a jerk.

NO

It is just another reason to not use athletes as role models. It may be legal in his country, but I and many others will never look at him the same way again. Does he care? Not in the least, so why should I care about him?

This is another example of the certain groups within the United States trying to tell other countries how to live their lives. I'm sure here are a lot of people around the world that think we are savages for hunting deer, but I don't think Americans will stop doing that anytime soon.

This is a traditional form of entertainment in a country that most residents don't have a lot of money to spend on leisure activities.

Who cares, it is not in our country! This country should mind its own business and quit try to force other countries to be like us. There are way worse things in this country than stupid chickens. Understand this!!!! You cannot make an animal fight if that animal is not willing to!!!! You cannot make animals fight, you are stupid if you think you can. All you can do is put them in that situation. Nature does the rest!!! Gamecocks will fight to the death with or without humans. That is what they are and how they are made. In no way does Aramis Ramirez effect my day to day life. Fighting roosters effects noone. The problem is that the animal nazis (PETA and HSUS) are entirely to nosey.
www.petakillsanimals.com says it all. They are nothing more than animal murders themselves and total hypicrits. From my understanding most people that raise these breeds of birds take very good care of them. The best of everything for 2 solid years. If you want to go see inhumane treatment go check out chicken farms and the living conditions they are raised in. Most birds for meat processing never reach 6 months old. You tell me; how long do you want to live...6 months or 2 years? People these are just chickens...who really cares? Chickens are not pets nor do they have the mental capacity to ever be one.

It's Cruel....but who are we to police what someone does in their own country?

The Cubs should release Aramis Ramirez now. They should throw him in jail if he comes to the United States. I cannot wait to see Peta protesting outside Wrigley Field.

Roman responds: By any chance are you a White Sox fan?

Vick knew dogfighting was illegal...

This issue is not ours to question...

Ever see what's done to a Bull's neck muscles before the Matador comes out?...I pray the little Pr!%* is gored to death

Others' cultures are just that, tho....theirs...so no, I don't care

Yes we should care that animals are used and abused for our so-called sport, but this will be overlooked because a rooster isn't considered a domesticated pet.

No. They also whistle at women - should we condemn them for doing that also? What a bunch of nonsense.

Seriously, this must be a really slow news day. I imagine in a few hours the moral compass of America Jay Mariotti will have blogged about how the Cubs need to cut Ramirez now to show they will not stand for this type of behavior.

What's next, one the Bears was in Amsterdam and partook in some special brownies, gimme a break.

Roman responds: Athletes and cruelty to animals was one of the biggest stories last year, and this isn't worth a blog topic for discussion? Please. And if you know which Bear ate the brownies, let me know.

This doesn't really bother me because it was in the Dominican. I've been to the Philippines where it's also a legal sport. It's televised on one of their major sports networks and they even have commercials for the more successful rooster breeders and commercials for the feed that they use. Pretty amazing when I first saw it. But it's part of the culture over there as it is in the Dominican. Just a bull fighting is in other countries. I understand everyone's sensitivity to this subject after the Vick fiasco, but we don't have a say in the cultures of other countries.

Roman responds: Thanks for the post. Describe what you saw. I've never seen it. And while I agree we don't have a say in what other countries do, he is a Chicago athlete.

People are not happy unless we're finding out some crap about an athlete or actor(ess). I guess it's something to make us feel better about our pathetic lives. Look, nobody is breaking any laws here in the U.S. or any laws in another country. What we need to do is focus on is our own lives and families and how to make our country better, unstead of whining about every little thing someone else is doing.

Another difference is that dogs are some of the most human, loving animals in the world, and chickens barely have brains, let alone the ability to show affection toward people. Would you hesitate more to look a dog or a chicken in the eye as you moved in for the kill, if it were your only option for food? One is a companion, the other is lunch. People who kill dogs for fun are monsters, but people who kill chickens for fun are not. If you're outraged about this, you are compelled by your principals to remove all chicken from your diet. Last thing: Aramis is the man, end of story.

Roman responds: 1. I don't eat chicken. 2. You didn't watch Aramis in the NLDS last year.

It is part of Latin American culture that a lot of people are never going to understand. When Aramis Ramirez is in the U.S. and cockfighting, then we can send him to the jail cell next to Vick.

I do care. I will not be able to cheer for Aramis anymore without feeling disgusted. I actually wish the Cubs would trade him even though he's a really good player. To me, the ability to not only watch these horrific events, but to enjoy and cheer at them shows a sick person on the inside. And apparently, he's not only sick, he's stupid. After all the media drama over Michael Vick, you would think he would at least have the good sense to keep his mouth shut about it. What a huge disappointment!

First off Roman, before you go and criticize Aramis for engaging in cockfighting, remember that culturally relatively speaking, cockfighting is completely legitimate. And yes, to some cultures in the US (specifically in the South) dogfighting is also. The major difference here is that one is legal and the other is not. Vick is a criminal; Ramirez is not. And while everyone is entitled to their own opinion and very well may look down upon Ramirez, he is technically doing nothing wrong. Maybe he believes that after the fight is over, the roosters should be eaten and not buried in the backyard of some neighborhood. Additionally, I agree with TJ's comment above about how a dog is a humane companion and a chicken is a brainless piece of meat. It's like comparing apples and oranges, even though both are fruit. Finally, look to countries like Spain, who revere bullfighters. Maybe we should start to condemn Pau Gasol...

Roman responds: I do condemn him, for his defense. And I pointed out that cockfighting is legal in the Dominican and other countries.

How is either of these different from football or boxing? Think of football; daily acceptable violence that sometimes results in permanent injury, paralysis and/or death for our entertainment.

What bothers me is that this blog is usually fairly intelligent. But, you have to be philosophically consistent. Otherwise, it becomes an exercise in "celebrity scandal pandering" to sell papers. The SunTimes is not hurting THAT much.

No. We do not care. This is not an issue. Nor should it be. If an american athelete went to India and it was discovered he eat a cow while in america, should that be an issue? He is living in a different culture. We should be try to learn that our view of the world is not the only view.

I dont care I would personally like to see cockfight somewhere it is legal. What are we all ignorant. People from different parts of the world have different customs. Now if he was fighting cocks here in illinois then I think he has some issues.

Don't care...

The issue shouldn't be if it's legal or not, cockfighting is just morally wrong. The argument that it's a cultural thing is wrong as well, you can't say it's okay because "it what their culture does." There is right and wrong and this is just wrong.

I have no problem with what he did because it is legal in the Dominican Republic just like hunting is legal in this country. To all those people that get mad about it why dont you guys get mad at every ahtlete that hunts or goes fishing. Does are animals to that are dying for fun.This is stupid and the media just wants a story to tell.

I'm not going to defend cockfighting but it seems to be something that is ingrained in Dominican culture. If MLB is going to keep drafting players from outside the USA and Canada it is going to have to accept some cultural practices that may be legal in a player's home country but not here. To punish the players would be ridiculous.

I'm okay with it as long as he wasn't injecting his bird with any RGH (rooster growth hormone). That would give his bird an unfair advantage over the others and that simply isn't right.

THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC HAS IT'S OWN LAWS AND CULTURE. WE CANNOT EXPORT ARE LIFE STYLE TO OTHER COUNTRIES AND EXPECT THEM TO JUMP ON OUR BAND WAGON. I'M SURE RAMERIZE GREW UP WATCHING COCK FIGHTS ALL HIS LIFE. AS KIDS WE GREW UP WATCHING BOXING MATCHES, I THINK THATS MORE OF A BRUTAL SPORT. IF 2 GUYS FOUGHT LIKE THAT ON THE STREET THEY WOULD BE ARRESTED. TO EACH HIS OWN. HE STILL A PRETTY GOOD THIRD BASEMAN/.

It's not a question of legality, it's a question of whether people want their kids looking up to professional baseball players who condone and celebrate cockfighting. Is it OK for American children to grow up thinking cockfighting, or dogfighting for that matter, is acceptable, or even 'cool?' The Cubs, or any other major sports organization, should not stand for this nonsense, and should want players that can be looked at as role models; not that there are many these days.

NO I don't! he is not breaking the law in that country.
move on to something else. afterwards they will have a nice barbecue con arrroz and gandules!!

I appreciate Anne and Roman's comments because they come from genuine love for animals. I don't like bully mentality - of any kind. I don't hold animals in the light of human beings, but don't feel its right to hurt them for these shady kinds of purposes no matter who it is - including Vick.

Think there is any cockfighting in the US??? You bet there is - and dogfighting and any other kind of animal they can get to fight eachother including humans. Nothing has changed except Vick is doing time. And I wonder why that is for a non-issue???

This is what I'm trying to tell people: If you want to end cock fighting, just bust Vick out of prison and let him start his own cock fighting ring. Vick would go back to prison, finish his term; cock fighting would be illegal everywhere.

Although I'm an animal lover and Roman may not have anything against Ramirez, it is ultimately making Ramirez look like a criminal (Yes, I know you mentioned it was legal in the D.R.). However, cock-fighting is part of Latin culture especially among Caribbean countries, and this is harder for people in the U.S. to understand. Let's focus on what numbers Ramirez will be putting up for Chicago in '08 season. Let him do what he does best, anything else is his private life.

ok..I can't help it...I gotta..

Let's all put ourselves in Mr Rooster's place...

"Hey, Mr Rooster, do you wanna scrap and screw till you die..or would you rather us... just cut off your head and eat you?"

If I'm Mr Rooster...I'm scrapin and screwin...and then....you can all eat me...

his defense is not that bad. In fact I think he deserved a gold glove last year I think that the only reason he did not win it is because the baseball writers love them some David Wright whose fielding percentage is by far worse than Ramirez and who had 11 count em 11 more errors then Aramis. So you Roman I will condemn for having nothing better to do than bash someones culture. Get a life.

Roman responds: I was talking about Pau Gasol, who was mentioned in the post. So to you, who doesn't put his name to his post, I say pay attention.

It is a cultural difference. If he did here on American soil, there would be a problem. As far as I know, he hasn't. People in America are allowed to hunt just to put the animal's head on their wall. Is that all that different than cockfighting? It is somehow more acceptable because we, as Americans, say it is? Some people worship cows. I eat them. When people from other cultures try to push their beliefs on us, we get pissed, and rightfully so.
We need to stop trying to be the morality police for the entire world if, for no other reason, to stop looking like hypocrites.
I got my money on Little Jerry Seinfeld.

I've got Sunday in our "When will Carol Slezak write, yet another, PC piece instead of covering sports" office pool.

Roman responds: First of all Max Power, the "Leetle Yerry Seinfeld" reference made me laugh. Secondly, what does it mean that we shouldn't be the morality police? Does that mean we shouldn't voice our moral concerns about things. No discussion? I disagree.

The American media and the court of public oppinion, which these days is always in sesion, is just getting to be ridiculous. Animals are slaughter all the time. Millions of animals are slaughtered every year. Does it hurt the animal less knowing it will be buthered and eaten after it is killed? I dont think so. Have you seen "No Country For Old Men" yet? The air powered weapon used in the movie shoots a metal stud directly into the brain of cattle. No one can tell me that is less cruel or violent than two roosters fighting. Bottom line it is not illegal in the Dominian. Animals are slaughtered all the time, unless you are a vegitarian you really have no room to talk.

PS
That being said hey Aramis dont be an idiot you want to be the George Steinbrenner of cockfighting great, just dont feild questions about it with the American media.

Well, I will have a hard supporting him, because I don't think its really fair to make any animal to fight for sport. I'm fine with boxing and MMA because they make a conscious decision to fight forcing anything into a fighting liefstyle I do not agree with. Should the cubs care? Only if he does it in the US where i believe it is illegal every where but Lousiana. Just a shame, I'm betting though that he puts more effort in to cockfighting then he does trying to get to 1b

oops. I missed the Pau Post and forgot my name.

---The Cubs should release Aramis Ramirez now. They should throw him in jail if he comes to the United States. I cannot wait to see Peta protesting outside Wrigley Field.

Roman responds: By any chance are you a White Sox fan?

Posted by: john ---

So a tourist goes to Amsterdam, stops in a coffee bar and enjoys an evening. Should that person be arrested when back in the USA? What if someone goes to Germany and drives 150 on the Autobahn? Both of those actions are illegal in the USA but those people wouldn't be punished or arrested.

Ramirez also should not be punished. I'm not condoning cock fighting, but he did it in culture that supports it and in a country where it is legal. The Cubs have little recourse for cutting him, especially in the eyes of the union.

i dont care...

Any person who finds this type of thing entertaining is a sociopath, capable of the most heinous actions. What a piece of crap.

Aramis shoudl know better, but while Vick used the aliby that it's part of his culture, Arimis would be telling the truth as cock fighting 9as wrong as it is) is a part of Dominican culture. I don't know the leaglities of cock fighing in the Dominican, but I believe it is legal, for that I don't think the Cubs should punnish Armis other than educating him why cock fighting is so wrong, then maybe get him to speak out against it. This is a chance for the Cubs, MLB and Aramis to make a positive impact on the Dominican by speakign out against cock fighting.

who here has ever been to or seen a rodeo on TV? I had to go to one for work once and it is positively brutal. I watched that Pedro Martinez cockfighting video and can say without a doubt that it was far less brutal than shocking a cow with a cattle prod or tying a rope around a bull's testicles just to make it angry and aggressive. Seriously, leave Aramis alone. What he did was legal where he was, just like a tormenting a cow at a rodeo is legal here but would be illegal in India.

Roman responds: Secondly, what does it mean that we shouldn't be the morality police? Does that mean we shouldn't voice our moral concerns about things. No discussion?

No, you have every right to voice your concerns. But we have no right telling people from other cultures that our view is right and their view is wrong. It's a bit hypocritical.
We allow two men to go into a ring and pummel each other for our entertainment. We allow horses to be put through un-natural exercises so we can bet on them. We allow hunting for fun, so some good ol boy can have some new decorations for his living room. But we complain about cockfighting taking place in a different country than our own. I think it's pretty safe to say we can debate the morality of all of those things, but to come down harder on certain things because "we" think they are wrong comes across as overbearing and preachy, as well as hypocritical.
As I stated before, we need to stop trying to be the morality police for the entire world if, for no other reason, to stop looking like hypocrites.
And for those who state "The Cubs should release Aramis Ramirez" and "I actually wish the Cubs would trade him" will you hold the same point of view for players who bet on horses, kill wildlife for leisure, or eat steak? Some people find those things wrong, or are you the ones who determine what is right and wrong for everyone?

Roman responds: Look, no one is talking about invading the Dominican and forcing them to outlaw cockfighting. It's a discussion. And it's a legitimate one. As far as telling other countries what to do, happens all the time.

Describe what I saw: Well, it's all very much how you would expect a boxing match would be. They bring in the two birds and post thier stats. They talk about their trainers. They all look pretty wicked. The roosters that is. Some are very colorful. And they have some sort of a sharp hook tied to one leg. The Then they jump and flap towards each other and stab at each other with the hook. It's pretty brutal. I couldn't believe what I was watching the first time I saw it. People who have watched it a lot can pick out the good stabs, but it all happens so quickly. Then if one bird is down, the ref will pick up its head to see if it can go on. It can be pretty bloody. Sorry for being so graphic, but that's how it goes. I'm also sorry to say that after watching it a few times, I actually did start to become desensitized to it.

The commercials were interesting. Advertising feed like they would dog food. And some successful breeding clubs are very popular and have their own commercials as well. I suppose you can try to purchase your own bird at one if you wanted to. There are plenty of unofficial "minor league" fighting rings all over the place. A lot of gambling goes on.

Roman responds: Yeah, I can see where people consider that entertainment.

Its a much different culture where Aramis is from. I really think this is a non issue. I my self think that what Michael Vick did is cruel and would never be involved in anything like it. However I don't think he should be sitting in prison either.

I could care less if Aramis is involved.

Wow . . . STUFF THAT IS ILLEGAL HERE IS LEGAL IN OTHER COUNTRIES AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE LIKE TO GO THERE AND DO THAT STUFF!!!! This is a sorry-ass non-story if I've ever seen one.

While Aramis Ramirez provides the excuse, "its legal in the Dominican Republic" he should understand that in order to be employed in the US he needs to abide by our cultures. He is employed by a sport that is Half performance/Half Public Relations. Only a fool would partake in something illegal and despised in the country he is employed by.
It would be like me doing something despised by the Dominican Republic and then expecting the country to welcome me with open arms when I return to my high profile job there.
In a country like that they would likely throw me out.

Cock fighting, big deal. I hope that they will legalize Pigeon and Squirrel fighting so we can clean up this city!

People need to find something better to worry about. You can't complain about something that's legal in someone's home country. As long as Aramis abides by the laws of the US while in the US he's cool in my book. His business during the offseason, and while at home is HIS BUSINESS!

Find something worthwhile to complain about, like how Roger Clemens is lying to Congress, knowing that he'll be pardoned by his good old Boyz (Bush Family)...what a joke! Seems this is a much bigger deal that cockfighting!

This isn't the Dominican. Who cares what he does. Especially when it's legal where it is being done. You people need to worry about your damn self and the country you live in. PERIOD.

Some things will never cease to amaze me. The guy has like a $75 million dollar contract,a nd he's going to jeopordize it over something as STUPID as this? Hello? McFly? Anybody home? Be a cockfighter after you retire!

This is a racist blgo created, by the typical white-racist liberal media. They are always gonna go outta their way to portray minority athletes in a negative light. You never hear about PETA protesting about white athletes to go deer hunting, or people the redneck baseball players that have plenty of dogs on their ranches and don't feed them. How about those white athletes that go to Africa and kill game on their spare time, how come I dont see the New York Times making a big deal. This world is messed up, people are more angry about an Athlete involved in dog/chicken fighting than they are about domestic violence, assaults, etc.

And to the guy who said dogs are "human" - they aren't - they are canines. they are "almost human" either.

The Sna Diego Chicken is almost human....

Who cares? It happened in his country. It’s legal. I am a Filipino and my uncle is involved in cock fights in the Philippines. This is a way for them to gamble, its part of our culture like eating dogs while getting drunk. Even if he is from Chicago or a Chicago icon, he is still living his life, which is still legal. He didn’t do it here in the states.....so drop the story.

FYI....my uncle buys chicken eggs here in the states and breeds them in the Philippines.

Roman, debating the morals of cock fighting in the DR was the wrong topic for the blog. The right topic is whether Aramis' involvement threatens his visa status. I think it does.

He may have to cut a deal to keep in good standing with the INS. That deal is likely going to include an omission of error in judgment in his involvement in that sport. is Aramis dumb enough to choose cock fighting over MLB? We'll know soon enough.

This is a nonissue. I don't like it but it is not only legal but treated like a major sport in the Dominican. I've even heard they have sponsers, like Pepsi, backing it.

While cockfighting may be equally reprehensible as dog fighting, there are 2 major differences here. First, the incident took place outside the United States, not on Ramirez own property. Second, the "sport" is perfectly LEGAL in the DR. It is not something I am personally interested in, but how is this different from bullfighting in Mexico? What we have here is an act of public relations stupidity, which is not exactly rare in professional sports. Remember, just because these people have mountains of money, they are still mostly uneducated, uncouth people who nobody would give a second glance but for their skill in sport.

You're darned right, Roman: this is wrong! Living in Atlanta (former Chicagoan), I'm embarrassed of the Falcons (another player, Babineaux, killed his girlfriend's dog after she threatened to leave him), & now the Cubs have this crap going on?

If he wants to live & play ball in the Dominican Republic, he can go back there & "be within the law" all he wants, but if he wants to live & work here, as a Chicago Cub (or the member of any pro baseball team), he needs to leave the barbaric "sport" of cockfighting behind. The way a man treats animals is often an indication of how he'll treat women; animal abuse frequently leads to spousal & child abuse. If Ramirez won't leave the cockfighting circle, the Cubs should cut him loose immediately.

Who cares! legal squirrel fighting would be cool.

"Cultural differences" are no excuse for cruelty...and it's an insult to a any culture/region to imply that such barbarity is a "critical" part its identity.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."-Gandhi

Roman sez: "And while I agree we don't have a say in what other countries do, he is a Chicago athlete."

He's also a Chicago athlete who's free to do anything and everything that's legal in his homeland, or any other country for that matter; and without exception.

Now ... if he tests positive for a substance banned by MLB upon his return, he'll have to pay a price for his indulgence. But that's an issue for another blog topic.

In Mexico, the age of consent for marriage is 12, and you can bet your a$$ that if there were a lights out pitcher living in Acapulco, and married to a 14 year old girl with three kids, the Cubbies would be first in line trying to snap him up.

I may be stupid, but I'm not delusional.

Roman sez: "1. I don't eat chicken. 2. You didn't watch Aramis in the NLDS last year."

1. You should try it. I swear ... it tastes just like chicken.

2. Watching Aramis play in last year's NLDS might just make you wish that you hadn't eaten anything.

This shouldn't be news. Any update on how he spent training during the offseason? Who looks up to athletes anymore anyways?

Who cares? It's not our business to try and tell other Countries what to do. In India they consider Cows "sacred", in this country we kill and eat them. So by their standards we are savages. Go figure.

Will sez: "Maybe he believes that after the fight is over, the roosters should be eaten and not buried in the backyard of some neighborhood."

Unlike the pampered and well fed Bulls that meet their end in Barcelona, roosters (and particularly fighting cocks) don't have a morsel of meat on their bodies worth eating.

When was the last time you saw rooster meat at the grocery store?

Even eggs are sold unfertilized, to insure that there's no chance you'll wind up with a cock in your yolk.

What hypocrites we are. Does anyone realise the conditions of the mega- livestock production facilities and how animals are treated therein. I am not bothered by it because I enjoy a good steak, pork chop or chicken breast. But we as Americans have no right deciding what should be sport in another country, when we ourselves do not have clean hands. Michael Vick broke the law and was involved in an organized criminal enterprise. A.Ram is not.

Max Power has a serious amount of cranial matter in his head.

His indisputable intelligence gives me a taste for a plate of brains and eggs, with a side order of fava beans.

CRAP, DOES ANYONE REALIZE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE MEAT INDUSTRY. SO WE ALL BASH RAMIREZ WHEN WERE EATING OUR STAKES AND CHICKEN AND HOGS AND VEAL AND THIS AND THAT. WE ALL LIKE TO THROW STONES. ITS A CHICKEN FOLKS, IF THEY DO NOT FIGHT WE CUT OFF THEIR HEADS AND WATCH THEM RUN AROUND. THIS DOES NOT COMPARE TO MICHEAL VICK.

Nurserock sez: "While Aramis Ramirez provides the excuse, "its legal in the Dominican Republic" he should understand that in order to be employed in the US he needs to abide by our cultures."

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He needs to abide by our laws, and unfortunately, for people who think the way you do, "our laws" are not universal; nor do they apply everywhere else on the globe.

The most important part of this story: "Cockfighting is legal in the Dominican." Deplorable: maybe. Punishable: no.

Some media types will try to blow this story up, but it really doesn't matter that much.

See here's the difference though, Vick engaged in illegal activity, Aramis Ramirez did not. Morals aside, he was abiding by the laws in his country, which by the way, we really have no right to judge. It's not our country. We live here, it's not legal here and he didn't do it here. It was probably not the wisest of choices Aramis has ever made, but he shouldn't lose his job over it. Now if he were on steroids while enjoying said cockfighting, well then surely that would be wrong.

The other thing is, not everyone is an animal lover. That's not always easy for animal lovers (like myself) to understand, but some people just don't feel affection for animals (see also: Keith LSS). But I would think even the thickest-skinned people would find the strapping of knives on the little birdies legs above and beyond cruel.

Juan hits a salient point.

Only the stupid incredibly INS, which is totally incapable of finding the 15 to 20 million illegal aliens living under right their noses, could possibly cause Aramis some problems.

As a person who doesn't condone animal cruelty in any form. He did not break any laws as did Vick. To be quite honest I could care less what he does in his homeland when he is in the off season, besides its a chicken, something we kill and eat by the hundreds of thousands everyday in this country. WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE.

Does couch hear the screaming of the lambs while eating his gyros? At least daily baseball coverage is back. I just ate sushi last night...the poor fish.

I'm noticing a trend here.

It seems as though those who most vehmently condemn Aramis, are, in the vast majority ... women. (that's a hard sentence to say when you're snockered)

I love deer jerky, but I don't know many girls who'd even be willing to give this delicasy a try.

It must have something to do with Bambi.

Who cares

Its chickens

I cannot believe the heartlessness of most of the posters regarding this subject. For those of you who say that they don't care, you have no heart. If you think it's okay for these innocent animals to die such a horrible death, then maybe you should all engage in the same type of "sport". Anyone who condones this whether it's in this country or any other country is as sick as the perpetrators. Anyone who enjoys this cruel and inhumane spectacle needs help. How can anyone enjoy watching these death scenes and cheer and bet on them? What kind of psychotic people are you?
You are no better than the Jeffrey Dahmers of this world who started his serial killing by torturing animals.
Aramis Ramirez should be subjected to his favorite sport. And I would be the first one to cheer his death. Scum!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Roman, get a life. What a sorry column, just another "distraction" to get the Cubs off to a bad start.
The 100 year long drought is the fault of a century of stupid Chicago Sports Writers airing all kinds of crap
about player's personal lives and getting everyone focused on something other than baseball. You should
have you little behind run out of this town. I USE to like the Sun Times.

Wow, this is getting more outrage than Uribe shooting a guy did.

No Mark, it's just that deer jerky sounds gross. And we'd look so unladylike eating it.

Marie sez: "Aramis Ramirez should be subjected to his favorite sport. And I would be the first one to cheer his death."

Ava Marie!

Allow me to say, "Boo hoo Marie".

Now, to address your desire to see another human being die, and actually cheer his death:

... I'd say that you're the one who needs some help.

I'm in the mood for some Popeye's.

I really do not care. Let him do whatever he wants. Peta does not need to get involved. They protest about everything! He does it in a place that's legal. I'll that he even likes cockfighting in an hour or 2.

Wow!

How soon we forget the passion over Michael Vick fighting dogs. I'm at a loss to understand what I'm reading. I don't care what you guys say about his culture. I don't care that's it's legal there and illegal here. Here he must abide by our standards. He is drawing American money from an American baseball team. He has an obligation to do what's right just like any American. I understand that we kill and eat chickens. Attaching knives to them and watching them cut each other to pieces is cruel and unusual. Vick grew up in the South where dog fighting is not frowned upon so much as it is in the refined northern U.S. You people must be out of your minds.............

Lets be constructive and not wish, like one of our bloggers, that Aramis go dead. God forbid!! If we start protecting animals and targeting humans, we will be in trouble. I saw a couple of illegal rooster fights in the Caribbean, and I agree that they are no good. But deer and elk hunting, although an equally cruel "sport," is quite legal in this land. And what about the killing of the Coqui frog in Hawaii? Those who believe that Aramis should be taken to task for patronizing cockfighting arenas may also want American-born players to be scrutinized by the animal police to see what they do away from the park during the winter. Has any of the animal champions of this blog ever spoken against child labor in shops that make tennis shoes sponsored by athletes? Is it because child labor does not count as cruelty to animals?

It's legal, so it's ok? Suddenly everyone's a cultural relativist? Why don't I believe that? Cockfighting is cruel and it's legality somewhere does not negate the cruelty. What if producing child porn was legal in the Dominican and Ramirez was involved? Would that be ok to all you "it's legal there" people? Somehow I think not.

Whether or not cockfighting is right or wrong is irrelevent. There are always poeple who are going to support it, and there are always people who are going to condemn it. Same goes for a lot of controversial topics (dogfighting, drugs, alcohol, guns, etc.). As long as Ramirez is not breaking any laws or doing anything detrimental to the team, he should be able to do whatever he wants.

Just because an action may be legal, does not mean that there is nothing wrong with it. This makes me want to go to Cub games just to boo Ramirez's sorry ash-but I'll resist that temptation because the Cubs aren't getting a dime from me with that loser on the team.

is because that is not the issue here. None of the pro-cockfighting people here are taken to task for it-only the antis. So, apparently, being concerned with animal welfare is not legitimate and requires you to care about a human rights issue instead. However, if you are NOT concerned with animal welfare you are given a free pass and don't have to care about anything. How hypocritical. Besides, did it ever occur to you that you could be against animal cruelty AND human cruelty? Probably not, you just want to eat your beef jerky and not have to think about anything important.

The man has done nothing wrong. People here all have opinions, but to force your opinion on another is the crime we have seen lately. Who here thinks they are better or have contributed more to our country, than George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Abe Lincoln. All have ties to cock fighting! Rual America is quickly going by the wayside,and suberbia has taken over thats why cock fighting is looked at the way it is.
YMHO.

So That's It sez: "It's legal, so it's ok?"

THAT'S IT!

Not only are you back, but I also haven't seen you respond to so many posts before. Is this a subject that you are pssionate about?
Do you not believe that cock-fighting is more humane than the slaughter house? In all reality....the nastiest most overly processed chicken from K*C may be easily avoidable, however, did you know that chicken broth is in tons of stuff? Ever had a good Cappelinni?
I think by rule, americans have accepted sports which the animal could be eaten(hunting/fishing), yet look down upon those in which
torture our best friend , animals which are not usually eaten ,or those which involve the culture of minorities.
So what is really the debate here? Are we exposing once again the small brains in some of us caucasians that do not allow us to accept another culture. Or are we defending the small brains of chickens that even if where given a chance to choose their own fate, may choose cockfighting instead being finger lickin good. Every creature should be empowered to die with such dignity.

Cockfighting is a great sport. We are not sociopaths or bloodthirsty killers. We are people that have our priorities right and dont worship at the alter of an animal. It is a sad comentary in this country when animals take precedence over human beings.

Cockfighting is animal cruelty, regardless of what jurisdiction it takes place in. It's a shame that men who become role models for our youth engage in such cruel activities.

I saw a cockfight in Puerto Rico once. It was vile. The roosters had spikes tied to their legs and ripped each other to shreds. There is a reason this is banned in all 50 states.

Vick grew up in the South where dog fighting is not frowned upon so much as it is in the refined northern U.S. You people must be out of your minds.............

Are'nt these the same refined people that shed blood to free the southern slaves?

ROMAN...why did my post get cut?

"Cock's are not mans best friend?"

Who does that offend?

"It's ok to eat fish
Cause they don't have any feelings"
[Kurt Cobain]

You guys from North America are full of contradictions. It's fine to go hunting deer or other poor animals but cock fights are bad. What do you think, that the deers or the other animals that you shot with a shot gun don't suffer when you have such a lousy shooting skill that you don't kill them instanly. I am from Puerto Rico, where cockfightin is legal and it makes me feel bad because I have been in a cock fight and they suffer, but I feel worse when I see a dead deer in one of your pick-up trucks.

One man's culture may well be another man's disdain but does that give one the right to condemn? I think not unless one tries to impose their will upon another. One poster said deer and elk hunting is cruel. If done strickly for a trophy mount on the wall I agree, but if the meat is eaten then where is the cruelty? Unless that person is a vegan or vegetarian then he/she is a hypocrite that simply pays someone else to kill for his/her steak. There are religions that still sacrifice chickens and goats in this country and it's legal, would we be having this conversation if Aramis was a member of such a religion? Face it people there are places in this world that are still primitive by our standards or still engage in sports that are considered cruel by our standards but are legal big time sporting and gambling events elsewhere. How many of those who have condemned Aramis have been glued to the TV to watch over and over the replay of a NASCAR pile-up or go to a hockey game expecting to see a fight, watch any type of fight cheering on their fighter when a punch lands that draws blood? Michael Vick engaged in something he knew was illegal in this country and deserved what he got. Ramerez was raised from birth in a culture where cock fighting is not only legal but also big money. What he does legally in his own country is none of our business plain and simple. Btw for the poster that said have you ever seen rooster for sale in the store....a capon is a castrated rooster.

The comments on this topic are so all over the place. We've got everything from death threats to deer jerky to "what if's" about child porn. And Ernest, what exactly do you mean by "American?" A refined northern caucasian male? I heard a statistic yesterday that said by 2050 there will be more Latinos living in this country than caucasians, so you may want to change your perspective. But, he's not an American citizen. He's Domincan - he was home, abiding by the laws in his home country. Cockfighting is subjectively wrong - unfortunately not everyone believes it is. You can't really say he wasn't abiding by "our" standards. He was. He didn't break any laws in either country. Of course that doesn't make it not cruel and disgusting, but not every person has the same moral standards in this world Ernest. Not everyone thinks the laws in this country are moralistically correct either. The thousands of women who get abortions legally every single day in this country are not abiding by someone else's moral standards. The world's an imperfect place.

Do they cook the rooster after being killed in the cockfight? I don't give a flying cow, what they do at other countries, if it's legal than why should we care? Anyways, GO CUBBIES......

Dominicans don't give a rat's ass what the Americans think of their culture, and cock fighting is certainly a part of their culture and has been for quite some time.

What happens in the Dominican Republic, stays in the DR.

when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Hey, I know! Let's make it legal in the United States like it was before the Animal Rights/Vegans could spend millions of dollars buying politicians votes to make it illegal here. That would solve the whole problem! Remember people, Americans eat more than SIX BILLION tasty little chickens each year. The ones we eat get to live in a 1 square foot cage for 8 to 10 weeks, then they are hung up by their feet and their throats slit. A fighting cock receives the best of care for two years before he is entered into a contest. If he is good, he lives to head a breeding yard and can live up to 15 years. If he is "rescued" by the HSUS or PETA he is immediately put to death, often stuffed into a 50 gallon metal drum with a hose afixed to it from the tailpipe of a truck and suffocated to death (this actually happened in Tennessee) - Boy, now that is HUMANE! I hope HSUS and PETA never get into the business of "rescuing" people! Some of you folks need to wake up to life's realities and actually get one!

Morally this is disgusting, but this is Not about right or wrong... More about WHO is doing it, and that is what I don't like. ALL KINDS of laws on the books... millions. But only a certain few are prosecuted to the full extent of them - whenever possible. I abhor violence, but are we really after cockfighters? Or just ready to pounce of FAMOUS ATHLETES? And not only are we going after the "Athletes", but we are setting an example of them. Its singling out and its not in the "spirit" of the laws.

It be nice if at least one Chicago paper was capable of investigative journalism.

Aramis shouldn't have any visa problems as cockfighting is still somewhat legal in at least 5 states AL, VA, MI, NM & LA. A DUI carries more weight in OH & WV. And IL has weaker statues than MI, FL, & CO.

So if you're looking to change the culture start with IL first.

Roman responds: Weaker statues? And cockfighting is not legal in Illinois or any other state. With some states, the laws were changed recently.

Here is something that i find interesting. It other countries where cockfigthing is legal and no laws are being broken, people want to condemn and athlete for watching and taking interest in it. However, here in the US, people glorify and even idolize those who are in MMA (mixed martial arts) fights and even boxing. Should we then condemn those who support boxing and mma fights? if it is cruel to have chickens fighting what does it look like when people are then fighting as a sport? There are enough problems in the US and yet we keep looking at what other people are doing in other countries where no laws are being broken and judge them when they aren't doing anything wrong. How would you like it if you are judged yet you really aren't doing anything wrong?

Roman responds: Silly argument. Boxers and MMA fighters go into fights willingly. They're not bred to kill each other and forced into fighting pens.

Roman, you raise a great theosophical question...

Roman responds: Silly argument. Boxers and MMA fighters go into fights willingly.

...
Do Chickens have wills?

and im not talking about intestate.

EFrazier...

didnt those refined northeners spill their own blood to help liberate the south?

just checkin'

What if the boxers first stick their hands in Honey and then in broken glass? Would that change your opinion?

Here's another great theosophical question...

Where's my post from this morning?????

being opposed to forcing animals to fight and die for pure pleasure is "whining about every little thing that comes along"? I thought we as a society opposed cruelty to animals? Isn't that something we teach our kids? Compassion? Empathy? Apparently not the responders here-who are nothing but angry,cruel, vicious, anti-intellectual nit-wits.

was the very last state to ban cockfighting. The law has not taken effect yet. It would be nice if at least one commenter was capable of getting his facts right.

It is amazing how fired up everyone has become over cock fighting.
Jay Marriotti and other who are irate over how this food source is treated so inhumanly in an other country.I wonder if they've ever seen how we treat live stock here.Poultry is filled with hormones kept in small cages and slaughtered so we can have our chicken nuggets.

We condemn Vick, yet we put down millions of pets everyday in shelters.We don't regulate the number of them being bred everyday, knowing full well many will be abandoned and killed.Is this moral?

Tell the concerned bloggers that if there is something in third world countries that deserve our attention it should be that there are kids in these counties in need of health care, food, education etc.
Right here in our country mother are losing their sons and daughters to street crime and victims of the war.People are losing their jobs,homes, mental patients are homeless roaming the streets and we can't afford to maintain needed services.

It is far easier to call names and look down on others. God forbid we spend our time looking at ourselves and what we are doing each day to make our lives meaningful.Lets save a chicken!!!

This whole controversy is hilarious. There are a million practitioners of cockfighting in this country and you worry about the Dominican Republic? You won't stop it here or there.
Seems as if Americans have forgotten a lot of the principles this country was founded upon. Tolerance and freedom used to be something more than talking points, but since radical animal rights groups like PETA and the Humane Society of the US are now allowed to buy legislation that's obviously a thing of the past.

about the CURRENT law in Afghanistan which calls for the death penalty for apostasy (basically Muslims converting to Christianity or committing sacrilege against Islam). I want to know if those who think that Ramirez has done nothing wrong because it's "their laws and their culture" feel the same way about the apostasy law in Afghanistan. My guess is they don't and are hypocrites. I see no legitimate reason for censoring this comment-especially considering all the angry, cruel, vicious and intentionally hurtful comments that have been posted in this blog.

and cockfighting is all about gambling. Seems to me since no one here cares about animals I thought maybe you people might care that the Dominicans lose precious money on gambling.

people need to quit worring about what other people do so much

Good post, Ron.

Roman: Thank you for raising this issue. Yes, I care. A person can consider cockfighting immoral; care about human life just as much as animal life; eat meat; and be respectful of other cultures. These are not counterintuitive.

"It is a sad comentary in this country when animals take precedence over human beings."

It is a sad commentary when someone thinks a human's "right" to force animals to fight to the death is more important than an animal's right to be left alone.

Slavery was legal in this country for hundreds of years-and according to the brilliant "logic" spewed by most of the comments here, there was NOTHING wrong with that. It only became "wrong" when it was abolished. Do you cockfighters ever think through the logic of your "opinions"?

How is cockfighting an example of tolerance and freedom? Could you wrap yourself in the flag a little more inappropriately?

You are not bothered by animal cruelty in livestock production because you enjoy a good steak? You have far more serious problems than hypocrisy. ANYONE who thinks animal cruelty is ok, because we are going to eat them anyway needs their head examined.

"Hey, Mr Rooster, do you wanna scrap and screw till you die..or would you rather us... just cut off your head and eat you?"

Methinks the rooster would choose "how bout just leaving me alone"-of course the animal cruelty mafia won't just leave the rooster alone.

"You can't complain about something that's legal in someone's home country."

I guess there were no legitimate complaints about the Taliban laws. Or South African apartheid. Or American slavery.

"As a person who doesn't condone animal cruelty in any form. He did not break any laws as did Vick. To be quite honest I could care less what he does in his homeland when he is in the off season"

If you didn't condone animal cruelty in "any form", you WOULD care about what Ramirez does at home in the offseason. You would care about all animal cruelty-like you said you did. You obviously DO NOT care about animal cruelty.

You think it's the deer hunters who are opposed to cockfighting? I think not.

"Cockfighting is a great sport. We are not sociopaths or bloodthirsty killers. We are people that have our priorities right"

Anyone who thinks cockfighting is an example of having your priorities right, probably doesn't volunteer at soup kitchens, or visit the elderly, or become a big brother, or donate to charity, or do much of anything positive for society.

Not that I accept the common premise that you must be a vegan to opposed cockfighting, but I am a vegan and I oppose cockfighting. I suppose you'll just respectfully accept that, right?

So many random posters....wow...cockfighting must really stike a chord!

Myself, I have no desire whatsoever to discuss politics here. I go elsewhere for that. This is where I come to escape from the "front page" of life, and to revel in the relative insignificance of my favorite team's athletic endeavors. But what I'm seeing here is an example of a much bigger problem; and a harbinger of things to come this November.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but it seems as though this particular topic has generated an inordinate amount of interest and response from people who do not normally read or reply to this blog. Perhaps we have more "lurkers" than I thought, but my guess is that the vast majority of these newcomers were drawn to Full Court Press by a desire to voice their opinions about animal cruelty, and have little or no interest in professional sports.

Seeking out forums in which they can espouse their opinions about the specific cause that drives them, the single issue voter is (IMHO)the most dangerous element in our society.

Whether it's abortion, religion, global warming, the war on terror, immigration reform, or animal rights; this group has a tendency to subjugate common sense in the interest of electing individuals that just happen to agree with them about the particular cause that they champion.

Nothing else matters.

These people will vote for a complete moron, as long as he or she has a compatible view about, "fill in the blank".

Unable to see the bigger picture, or the preverbial forrest for the trees, they cast their votes according to a candidate's stance on the single issue that they hold most near and dear to their hearts.

Using PETA as an example; people who are fanatical about so-called animal rights would willingly elect the second coming of Adolf Hitler as long as one of his election planks included a promise to protect baby seals from being clubbed to death for their fur.

Although I'm an agnostic, I have to say, "Lord, protect us from the single issue voter.

Now ... back to the game.

This has to be some of the most exasperating dialogue that I've ever witnessed or participated in.

And Ernest, what exactly do you mean by "American"?

Exactly what I wrote there. I don't speak in hypotheticals or inuendos. We're making the argument that it's okay to be cruel to animals because of some cultural reason. Down south, dog fighting is part of the culture. Don't make this into a black or white thing because it isn't about that. Ramirez isn't black or white. I don't really give a damn about what's legal in the DR. That is the most asinine argument I've heard. Some of you live out of both sides of your mouth here apparently. What makes a dog any better than a chicken, rooster or hen? Both have brains, reproductive organs, extremeties and senses. They are living creatures and deserve to be treated with some degree of dignity. Sure, I love to eat chicken. I'm sure a lot of you do also. But, what living creature deserves to be hacked to pieces and suffer a cruel death. When Vick was fighting dogs most of you here that are regulars were shouting from the mountaintops pronouncing him the devil in a suit. Ramirez deserves no less. His visa should be revoked until he renounces this cruel activity.

Last, Bculz, what does that have to do with the topic? You and Julie play the race card more than the Blacks on this blog.

I wish this blog had a "spell checker"

Great post melissa!

You think it's the deer hunters who are opposed to cockfighting? I think not.

Posted by: Anonymous | February 15, 2008 08:36 PM

anonymous I hunted deer for many years and am opposed to cock fighting and dog fighting. I've also hunted pheasant, quail, rabbit, squirrel and duck. For the better part of 15 years I lived off what I hunted and grew in my garden and froze or canned.
Before you make another assinine statement like that you might consider that the majority of wild life conservation is paid for by hunters and fisherman through license fees and taxes on ammo and organizations such as Ducks Unlimited. Also next time don't hide behind an anonymous post, if you're going to comment have the guts to put a name or handle to it.

Vegan, you may want to consider a little more protein (for brain function) in your diet. It's a common premise that you have to be a vegan to be opposed to cockfighting? Where'd you get that???? I'm glad you don't accept that, because that's pretty far off course. Guess what - I don't condone animal cruelty at all, AND I'm going to have bacon and eggs for breakfast. Why would the two be mutually exclusive? If you don't understand the big words and phrases in my post, go eat a cheeseburger and try again.

Let's make a simple comparison, one that is legitimate. A chicken is a chicken. Let's compare the life of our food chicken to the life of a gamecock. Production chickens, the kind you eat, live 6-8 weeks before they are SLAUGHTERED-they have no chance of survival. A gamecock, on the other hand, lives for 2 years before he is matched. He must be cared for very well during this time. He has already lived more than ten times longer than the production chicken. Then, guess what? He has a CHANCE OF SURVIVAL, and if he wins he will be exalted and given better care than ever before and may live up to 10 years as a brood cock. I ask a simple question.....Which chicken would you want to be? You cannot compare human lives to animal lives, so before you answer this question you must think of yourself as a chicken.

Please do not compare animal cruelty with slavery. Slavery was lifetime cruelty, people were born in slavery and their children were automatically enslaved as soon as they were born. And it was a human-to-human practice (let's call it inhuman-to-human) that is still affecting this society. While I abhor cruelty to animals, I as much dislike the moral relativism of many bloggers. Animals first, nothing else. Thanks God there was no animal police during Lincoln's days to demand a stop to the use of horses on the Union's side, based on the argument that horses got killed during battle. The zest of animal advocates is remarkable, but they relegate human beings to the back burner and they tend to impose their views on other people

Ernest, you should go back and re-read my posts because you must have me confused with someone else. I have never "played the race card" on this blog with regards to any topic. Nor have I ever said anything about "cultural differences" making animal cruelty "okay." I said that cockfighting is legal in the Dominican, I didn't say that I agree with it. Why is that asinine? I'm stating a fact, followed by my opinion, which is in agreement with yours, that cockfighting, dog fighting, etc. is horrible and disgusting. I have been consistent with my opinions throughout this thread as well as the conversation regarding Michael Vick, so I implore you to find a comment of mine where you feel I "live out of both sides" of my mouth. I do not agree with what Aramis Ramirez did or what Michael Vick did, but the difference is in the legality of their actions. Whether you agree with that or not, it's also a fact.

Nice try Ernest, but get your information straight about my comments before ripping into them.

Roman, most of these states have laws against about cock-fighting with penalties that range between a parking ticket & a DUI. That does little to prevent the gambling on cock fighting from going on.

I would not doubt the possibility that more cock fights occur in the US each yr than the DR. Your blog probably amounts to the pot calling the kettle black.

I put this in the same category as unsanctioned boxing. It's illegal in most states. It results in many deaths each year. The penalties are much stiffer & yet it continues to grow.

is that better than anonymous for you? We have no idea who you are-Tim Little can be your real name or a pseudonym-who knows. So, anonymous is just as good as any. Speaking of hiding, maybe you should try "hunting" out in the open without camouflage.

But to the point: The myth is that "hunters" pay for the majority of conservation must be put to an end-it is not true. Now, hunter's fees and such do pay for SOME conservation (not that much) but before you get holier-than-thou about your great "conservation" efforts, it is worthwhile noting that hunters are only interested in "conserving" species so that there are enough of them to kill. Basically you are paying for what you destroy. Real nice. What a brave humanitarian you are. What's the difference between enjoying hunting and enjoying cockfighting? Eating the carcass? I think you are plenty sick and a hypocrite.

To Julie B:
big words? How bout reading the posts before you insult me? A very common opinion in these comments is that you must be a vegan to oppose cockfighting-if you haven't noticed that,maybe you need some scrambled tofu and fakin' bacon because all that animal protein is turning your brain to mush.

If you think you can oppose animal cruelty AND eat bacon and eggs-you clearly don't oppose ALL animal cruelty or have been living blissful unaware of factory farms.

if you are not interested in politics, then stop using loaded terms like "so-called" animal rights and baseless accusing animal-rights supporters of being blindly willing to elect Hitler. You know nothing of the sort.

regarding "nonregular" posters on this blog-I believe everyone is welcome to post their opinions here-not just regulars. Roman set the topic and the topic is the cruelty of cockfighting-if you don't like that, take it up with him. We are on topic-your rant against single-issue politics is not.

another false dichotomy-why must chickens be raised in factory farms or forced into cockfighting? Really shows the limits of man's thinking doesn't it. Of course, the perpetuators of cruelty are not known for their great intellect, are they?

we animal advocates here are advocating and end to the cruelty of cockfighting. And this harms the interests of people how?

You say you abhor moral relativism, but I don't think you understand it. Those who oppose cockfighting here AND in the DR are not the moral relativists-the relativists are those who don't necessarily like cockfighting but think the DR is immune from criticism because it's "their culture."

compare animal cruelty to human slavery? Factory farming IS a lifetime. So is dogfighting. So is cockfighting. Slavery was awful-animal cruelty is awful. Shame you can't get behind that opinion. Besides you took the point out of context-many people here have said that Aramis and the Dominican were immune from criticism because it was "their country" and "their laws". If you follow the logic that another country's culture or laws cannot be criticized then YOU MUST accept the opinion that NO country could criticize another country's laws or culture. YOU MUST then accept the Taliban laws, Apartheid, and Slavery as being ENTIRELY IMMUNE from criticism from anyone outside those countries. I don't think any of you really believe that-and therefore I think you are hypocrites.

Why is it that the more vociferous you are in favor of cockfighting the worse your spelling gets?

To my #1 fan....hunting has been a way of life in this country since before us pale faces landed here and yes we hunters help conserve to help preserve that tradition. We not only help to conserve by limiting what can legally be killed but by buying and saving refuge areas that would certainly be lost to developers who pose a greater threat to our wild life than hunting by destroying natural habitat. And for your information with the exception of duck hunting blaze orange is required to be worn for safety purposes. and only deer and duck hunting is done from a blind.

First of all, don't assume I'm a "paleface"-how offensive! Cockfighting has been a way of life in the DR for how long? They are trying to preserve that "tradition" just like you are trying to preserve your "tradition". Custom will reconcile people to any atrocity and hunters in the US and cockfighters in the DR are both committing indefensible horrible cruelties to animals in the name of "tradition" or "culture".

Helping to conserve what can legally be killed? Are you kidding me? Every hunters group ever agitates for MORE species to be killed-not fewer. Blaze orange? c'mon, you know the truth. For crying out loud you guys use camouflage binoculars and toilet paper!

We agree on one thing-developers are a serious threat to habitat. But, don't try to kid us, if you couldn't kill its animals or fish, you wouldn't give a care about preserving a wilderness area.

It appears that I was right on the money.

Vegan, there are 127 comments in this thread, and I went back and read them from the beginning. Where is it "common opinion" that you have to be vegan to be opposed to cockfighting? Seriously, aside from a brief musing from Tim Little, no one even said anything about being a vegan at all. In fact, including your 2 posts, the word "vegan" appears 7 times in this entire thing. Furthermore, your 2 posts are completely contradictory. It sounds like this supposed "common opinion" that one must be a vegan in order to oppose animal cruelty is yours, actually. But first you said you didn't buy it, then you throw it back at me saying I couldn't possibly oppose animal cruelty and also eat meat. Oh, and as delicious as it sounds, I'll take a pass on that tofu and fakin' bacon, thanks.

#1 fan, you don't use toilet paper? That's a scary thought. Don't get your shorts in a twist the paleface reference was to my ancestors not necessarily yours. And according to your beleif anyone that eats meat or wears any by-product of the killing of an animal is commiting an atrocity.

Now as to your accusation that if I couldn't kill it's animals and fish I wouldn't care about any wilderness area, your dead wrong. I spend many days during the year sitting in refuge areas just to enjoy the peace and quiet and observe the wild life. Before you go off thinking what I'm doing is merely scouting an area before hunting season please notice I said refuge areas, these are no hunting areas and I quit hunting 5 years ago for personal reasons.

I can respect an individuals choice to be either vegetarian or vegan but obviously you can not respect my choice to either hunt or eat meat. You are much like the fanatic "born-again" christian trying to beat me over the head with a bible instead of just excepting that we have different ideals and respecting me for that. Great thing about this country is we have choices, you made yours and I made mine. I don't judge you for yours yet you have condemned me and any one that eats meat or wears the by-products of the killing of an animal. I'll say a prayer for you before dinner this evening.

Someone Who Likes Using Other People's Names Because They're Afraid To Use Their Own sez:

"if you are not interested in politics, then stop using loaded terms like "so-called" animal rights and baseless accusing animal-rights supporters of being blindly willing to elect Hitler. You know nothing of the sort.
regarding "nonregular" posters on this blog-I believe everyone is welcome to post their opinions here-not just regulars."
___________________________________________________

I'll stand by my opinion, and sign it with my name.

I'm going to take the time to apologize to you Julie because a lot of my commentary wasn't meant for you. It bothers me however that so many here were making comments like, "Vick should be hung like the dogs" and things of that nature. I'm truly taken aback by some of the excuses being made by some of the bloggers on this thread. In my opinion, if he didn't play for the Cubs there would be less agreeability from some of these bloggers. All they seem to see is a possible playoff run with him as the #1 pitcher. Some of you are so transparent. I'll make you a bet Roman. I'd bet that if Bonds was a Cubs or a Sox, we'd be in full forgiveness mode. Once again Julie, I respect your opinion and I'm sorry for the backlash.

We need to shuffle the deck again...

I am all out of race cards!

You know..im not one to mix apples and oranges, but i felt today that it was appropriate...to post this story opener.

See if you can make the connection...

Unpopular at home, Bush basks in African praise
Sun
Feb 17, 2008 11:43am ESTPost
Bush set for Africa tour

DAR ES SALAAM (Reuters) - Unpopular at home and in much of the world during the last year of his presidency, George W. Bush is basking in rare adulation on his African tour.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL17797120080217?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Roman:

As I'm sure you're well aware, topics like this draw the nut cases out of the woodwork.

The vast majority of these newbie respondents could care less about sports. They're fanatics, who live and breath for the sole purpose of forwarding their political / sociological agendas. Those who diagree, or refuse to buy into their cause are considered to be less than human.

I find this amusing, because given the choice of feeding a starving child, or rescuing a weasel from a mink farm, they'd likely choose the latter.

I'll take special pleasure in devouring my Porterhouse steak this evening, and raise a glass of wine to toast my continued freedom to do so.

Wondering how those grapes must have felt when they were stepped on? Ohhhhh ... the humanity!!!

I like how this topic always devolves into a Hunters vs. Vegan fight....love it.

My question to vegans is, can we be so sure PLANTS are not sensiate beings as well?

After all, they do breath in what we breath out and breath out what we breath in??

Yo Culzie:

I made the same mistake as you did.

I forgot to ad the "E" at the end of breath!

"After all, they do breath in what we breath out and breath out what we breath in??"

Thanks, Ernest.

If we were all the same, this world would be a boring place.

You know what BC, plants also need water to survive, just like humans! Should we start a movement called "Save the Vegetables?" I like it!!!!

Somewhere some average joes are fighting chickens and dogs and NOONE but PETA and a few animal lovers really care. I would be willing to bet that its going on close to PETA headquarters whereever that is. And its hypocritical to make a big deal of it just because someone famous does it.

I feel the same way about drunk driving or any other social evil. We are all over Lindsy Lohan and Paris Hilton, but you can literally go outside on any evening in Chicago and point out a drunk driver. Guy who wrote the story was probably drunk!

Culzie ofcourse plants are sensiate beings. Anytime I eat a bowl of navy bean soup with diced onions on top about 4 hours later they start talking rather loudly.

Roman,

First off, I think we need some applause for the blog. Not once (unless you edited it out) did we have any reference to the male reproductive organ. Bravo board!

While I don't agree with what Aramis is doing, it is a part of his culture. He was brought up thinking that it was okay. Although the context is certainly looked down upon here because we consider it animal cruelty, to Aramis it's just something that he grew up with. I believe that it's the same as going to a foreign country and having to adapt to that country's system of manners. The movie Mr. Baseball comes to mind.

Yes, I know, manners are not the same thing as killing animals, however, to us they are a part of everyday life. To Aramis, cock-fighting is as innocent as us watching a rodeo, which by the way, could be seen as cruelty as well because of the method they use to get the bulls to buck. (Look it up if you don't know how.) It's all about one's culture versus another.

Reply to annonymous
I do ALOT of volunteer work for HFH and also donate to St. Judes.These are people charities.Unfortunately you cant look beyond the blinders of your animal religion and see the real world.

way to let that distract you from my point!

Ernest sez: "In my opinion, if he didn't play for the Cubs there would be less agreeability from some of these bloggers. All they seem to see is a possible playoff run with him as the #1 pitcher."

He pitches too?

In that case Cub fans would also be willing to give him a pass if he decided to fight dogs.

Somewhere some average joes are fighting chickens and dogs and NOONE but PETA and a few animal lovers really care

Keith...if your dog fighting, your not an average Joe...YOUR A SICKO!

Same for Chicken fighting, its really not fun to watch, i mean isnt killing animals for "amusment"..see thats the operative word here people...not for FOOD, or for Clothing but for pure amusement. Its a bit sick.

At least hunters act like they are going to use the animal and eat it, albeit most of them just end up buying bigger and bigger freezers.

Bottom line is...we have to ask ourselves, what is the purpose of the killing? To feed us? Im ok with it. To clothe us, again, i am ok with the idea. But to kill them for sport or to amuse or to have them kill each other....is sick.

Hunting is a personal choice, i dont personally like to hunt. I dont even like to stick hooks through worms when I fish, to be honest. I am actually a bit of a buddisht here.

I try not to harm any living creatures.

I used to not kill mosquitoes when they were sucking my blood.

How altruistic is that?

So...KTLS by your logic, then...we shouldnt where the clothes the celebs wear, we shouldnt cut our hair like they do, we shouldnt watch their latest Youtube outtings or buy up every gossip magazine or read every celeb blog, or go to there movies or watch they're shows and talk shows and read their books and posters and wallpaper and buy their Jerseys, and go watch them play games?

I mean...your logic behind why we shouldnt care about Celebs breaking the law SUCKS!

sorry...you know i love you.

Point is, we care because they are celebs and athletes...

not inspite of it...

If the average Joe ran a 4.4 40 time and could tackle a horse

or

if they had 36 c's and were a perfect .7 waist to hip ratio, you would care!

Look how much you blog about them...trust me...you care!

To the blogger who believes cockfighting=slavery

Notwithstanding the importance of this issue, I will not change your mind, so I'll stop here at the risk of receiving another "Hypocrite" denunciation from some blogger. I adhere to all forms of respect for humans and animals, but find it worrysome that some folks, if given the power, would regulate other humans and their private lives. People have the right to disagree on whether meat-eating is right, and I respect yours opinion, as long as the intent is not to force-feed your ideas. If I were to allow others to control me I would as soon move to the Taliban turf you mentioned. People in the Dominican Republic are great folks and will listen to you if you present your issue in a level-headed manner. Friend, don't forget that their country has been intervened by us several times and their memories are still fresh. And while we are at it, what about the rampant poverty in the DR? Do their children deserve it more than roosters need fake spurs in their bellies? If not, should you also worry about this isssue? (Yes, first and foremost).

And now, shoemaker to his lathe. See you Cubs fans in the 2008 subway World Series. END OF DISCOURSE.

Culzie, its ok to like or even love a celebrity. You can even hate them. But when they get singled out - and made and example of - thats wrong. Its like punishing them for being good at their professions. With VIGOR and hatred they get pursued by the press and the law. And they are asked to live a lie and not be human like the rest of us. We really think that fighting dogs and chickens is a rarity like haley's comet, when its not. Both things go on just like business as usual. Punishing Michael Vick and Ramy will not stop it any more than impeaching President Clinton stopped adultery and fornication. He's famous or rich so he better not be human and make a mistake or all of us haters will take it from him. Thats what we have become.

Well, they are not ammune to the laws either Keith.

I think they point you are convienantly forgetting is the MEDIA's focus on the crime.

I doubt the LAW is trying harder to bust celebs than they are busting average joes.

Take a look at your local paper, it is FILLED with arrests and violations of average Joes.

It's like the PeeWee Herman incident...

He was caught "Buddy Wackiting" in an adult movie theater.

It wasnt until weeks later that a reporter was pouring over arrest records when she spotted PAUL RUEBENS name.

She is the one who BLEW the story up, not the cops!

Dont you see a difference.

Its not the COPS that are posted up outside Spears house or Mercedes every day...ITS THE MEDIA.

Do you not see a distinction? Or do you just lump the Media, the Cops and everyone into your WHITE AMERICA PARADIGM?

Well, they are not ammune to the laws either Keith.

I think they point you are convienantly forgetting is the MEDIA's focus on the crime.

I doubt the LAW is trying harder to bust celebs than they are busting average joes.

Take a look at your local paper, it is FILLED with arrests and violations of average Joes.

It's like the PeeWee Herman incident...

He was caught "Buddy Wackiting" in an adult movie theater.

It wasnt until weeks later that a reporter was pouring over arrest records when she spotted PAUL RUEBENS name.

She is the one who BLEW the story up, not the cops!

Dont you see a difference.

Its not the COPS that are posted up outside Spears house or Mercedes every day...ITS THE MEDIA.

Do you not see a distinction? Or do you just lump the Media, the Cops and everyone into your WHITE AMERICA PARADIGM?

Hey...I dont want to change the subject....(back to something we talked about to death, but it was so poignant to our Native American thread...and well...

... I saw an amazing show last night on PBS, (i know I know), but anyways, it was so crazy...

Here is the synopsis...

A guy named Kit Carson, an early frontiersman and trapper and explorer...turned war heor, turned Idian Fighter, turned Indian Spokeman.

Its truly unbelieveable...

He was single handidly responsible for OPENING up the west and blazing trails for the US Military to take New Mexico and California from Mexico....and basically helping to bring about the Manifest Destiny...westward expansion...

ok...well..he got so famous, they brought him back to NY and he was like a cowboy tarzan out of water....and hated the confines and phony aires of the NYers...and stuffy east coasters ( what else is new?).

So he returns to thw west, but now realizes that he has helped open the door of the West to these same stuffy East Coasters...and it is destroying his UnSpoiled Land..

Then...they start to make Comic Books about the Guy....

like...Kit Carson...the Indian Fighter...

well...a few years later.....

a couple is trying to make their way west.....and they got attacked by indians....

the husband gets killed....and the wife and child taken by the indi9ans...

they call on Kit Carson to come rescue her.

Something goes bad, they dont get there in time and the Indians break camp and kill her right before Kit can reach her.

The most f'd up thing...is...they found one of his Comic Books on her...where Kit Carson saves a captive lady from an Indian tribe.

He couldnt even read it...he was illiterate....

anyways...he goes on to become the BIGGEST FRIEND of the indians....lobbying for them in congress and helping to preserve their native hunting grounds and so on....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_Carson

CRAZY!!

http://www.courant.com/entertainment/tv/hc-tveye0218.artfeb18,0,6710210.column

Kit Carson, America's Meanest Cowboy, Featured On PBS Special - Feb 18, 2008
Because he led the US effort in the wholesale annihilation of the Navajo nation and its 300-mile death march known as "Long Walk," then later goes on to become the Champion of Native American Protectionism.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/a_c/carson.htm

Culzie, not saying they are immune because the law applies to all. But there is profit and gain to be made by getting a "famous collar". You know I have a great dislike for Kobe Bryant, but I feel what happened to him was unfair in part. He was victimized and exploited because he was famous. No doubt there is some average joes in jail for doing the same thing, but no way they recieve that kind of publicity and punishment.

Of course these guys recieve favoritism as well, but that is a positive - and I only have a problem with injustices/unfairness.

FYI - almost died off the Pee Wee comment. The Kit Carson stuff is good info.

Hey Keith, did you ever think maybe Kobe got off so easy because of his celebrity status? How about Nicole Richie or Lindsay Lohan, who spent a total of 2 hours in jail combined for their multiple DUI's?

And by the way, how exactly was Aramis "victimized?" Anyone remotely famous should know that every move they make is going to be scrutinized way more than the "average joe," of course. That just comes with the territory, and they get compensated in the mult-millions for their having to put up with life in the public eye. But has he gotten into any actual trouble because of this?

Right..I think its a two way street.

You want extra credit for running fast or looking hot, well then you get notoriaty if you F up and get caught.

You cant be famous for good stuff, and then have us ignore the bad stuff ....

I always think of Heraclitus's famous quote....

You can tell alot about a society, by whom they choose to celebrate!

(Heath Ledger - gets a hero's send off for playing a patriot in the movies, while real heros' get spit on by Code Pink Wackos...

Nice Culture we have carved out for ourselves....

Keep following Oprah everyone.....

Hey...bad news for Hollywood by the way...

Castro has stepped down....

What champion of communism will Sean Penn and Glover visit now...

oh wait...Chavez in VenZ sorry...i forgot.

Bottom line on this Aramiz story is,

wake me up when there is a

federal indictment.

Jewels, I believe Kobe got off the hook. His money paid for it. But I ask if he should have even been there in the first place. The average joe meets a girl, they do what they do, and NOBODY cares.

And Yes those DUI sentences were a joke and celebrities do catch breaks. But that is also an indictment on us - because who let them off the hook?

Ramy is a victim of all this negative press. Out of ALL those Dominicans, why do we have show our disgust for him. Could have easily said...a baseball player, or simply - that country. Ramy gets to represent his whole country in a negative light just because he is a good baseball player.

Jewels, I believe Kobe got off the hook. His money paid for it. But I ask if he should have even been there in the first place. The average joe meets a girl, they do what they do, and NOBODY cares.

And Yes those DUI sentences were a joke and celebrities do catch breaks. But that is also an indictment on us - because who let them off the hook?

Ramy is a victim of all this negative press. Out of ALL those Dominicans, why do we have show our disgust for him. Could have easily said...a baseball player, or simply - that country. Ramy gets to represent his whole country in a negative light just because he is a good baseball player.

Ernest sez: "In my opinion, if he didn't play for the Cubs there would be less agreeability from some of these bloggers. All they seem to see is a possible playoff run with him as the #1 pitcher."

I can't believe I said this. I had Zambrano on the brain because I drafted him to my fantasy league team with that same thought in mind. Wow am I a buffoon. Anyway, just for clarification purposes, I'm well aware that Ramirez plays third. I had a brain fart on this thought. So replace #1 pitcher with All Star caliber third baseman and the same thought process applies. Would it be less of an issue if he was not a key cog of one of the first Cubs incarnation in 100 years that looks like a legitimate World Series contender in the preseason? I'm not talking about the unlikely Cubs playoff teams. I'm saying legit bullpen to bench. He should be vilified the same as Vick.

Ramy is one of millions, but his face is linked to the issue like he is a Wikipedia description of what a birdfighter is. And the same was done with Vick and dogfighting. Now their names and faces are synonomous with these issues.

Being famous is not a reason to judge someone harsher than anyone else. If that is the way it is and always has been, maybe that should change. Maybe some of us should stop and think. Rich and famous work hard too. And yes they get a break or two. But some of us in America REALY knows what thats like don't we.

All I am suggesting is this society as a whole aint really angry about no animal cruelty. If we were, there wouldn't be any. Ask folks who want to smoke in Chicago. And crucifying famous people just to shed light on an issue is wrong. It helps the cause, but its wrong.

Ernie...you just took your first steps toward recovery!

Dont look back now...you are on your way toward the path of truth...it can be scary...but...your gonna be ok. Trust me.

Keith says: Jewels, I believe Kobe got off the hook. His money paid for it. But I ask if he should have even been there in the first place. The average joe meets a girl, they do what they do, and NOBODY cares.

Keith are you really saying you believe Kobe raped that girl and if he had been just an average Joe nobody would care that a girl got raped?!! Man that is so wrong! Do I believe Kobe was guilty and bought his way out? Yes! Would the case have gotten the same media coverage if not for his celebrity? No but his odds of conviction would have been higher.

Besides the money celebrity also comes with public scrutiny, some deserved, some not deserved. Some celebs handle the spotlight with dignity some don't. Aramis is being blasted for something that is legal in his country, what I would like to know is, is he doing anything with his millions to help that country? The MLB has been taking a big hit lately because of performance enhancing sustances and rightly so it would appear. One thing I have noticed in all professional sports is The NBA is the only sport that regularly during games runs ads depicting what individual players are doing for comminities not just local but globally. Maybe the rest of professional sports should pay attention and try to elevate their reputations. When was the last time you saw an ad about MLB or NFL players giving back to the community?

Roman responds: I don't think he raped anyone.

Tim Little - be careful - I said his money got him off. If he was a regular Joe - as Hawk would say..."HE GONE"! I believe Kobe was victimized here. But he was as dumb as they come and learned a valuable lesson. I am not naieve, and know what happens regardless, I am just saying - its not right or fair.

Morality should not be thrust upon just certain humans, but ALL humans. Ramy should be treated like the rest of his countrymen - and what is our response....WE DONT CAAARRREEE. Vick should have been treated like everyone else who fights dogs, and they don't do time for it. Kobe beat the courts - and that hasnt been happening too much lately for African Americans has it???? I might be totally wrong, but I don't think they believed his accuser. Just opinion people...

In 1504, Explorer Christopher Columbus used this belief to help him during his final trip to the West Indies.

After several months of being marooned with his crew on the island of Jamaica, relations with the indigenous population soured and the supply of food stopped.

Fearing starvation, Columbus was aware that a total lunar eclipse would occur on 29 February 1504. He told his 'hosts' that if they did not assist him and his crew, the Gods would paint the moon red as a sign of their anger.

Right on cue the lunar eclipse occurred, leaving the indigenous population believing Columbus possessed supernatural powers.

Nee..Neee...Neee...Nee.....Indians!

Keith..if Kobe wasnt an NBA Star, that tall hot 21 year old blonde wasnt jumping in the sack with him either. I mean, come on dude! Two Way Street...

OJ - GOT AWAY WITH MURDER
AL SHARPTON - HIS VERSION OF CHAPPAQUITICK
RAY LEWIS - BEAT MURDER RAP
MICHEAL JACKSON - SERIEL CHILD MOLESTER - FREE MAN
KOBE BRYANT - BEAT A RAP CHARGE
DON KING - BEAT A MURDER RAP
THAT CONGRESSMAN WHO HAD THE 10K IN HIS FREEZER
SNOOP DOG ( I WONT GET INTO RAPPERS, BUT COME ON, THESE GUYS ARE ATL)

MICHAEL JORDON - BEAT HIS SEXUAL HARRASMENT CASE - I KNOW CAUSE MY UNCLE WAS THE JUDGE

THATS NOT A BAD LIST OF GET OFFS KEITH.

CAN YOU NAME SOME BIG NAME WHITE CELEBS WHO BEAT THE LAW WHEN THEY PROBABLY WERE GUILTY (JUST OPINION). HERES MY LIST OF THOSE WHO GOT BUSTED THOUGH...OH ROBERT BLAKE....THATS THE ONLY ONE I CAN THINK OF.

ENRON EXECS- BUSTED
ANDERSEN CONSULTANTS EXECS- BUSTED
MARTHA STEWERT - DID TIME
PARIS HILTON - DID TIME
BRITTANY SPEARS - LOST CUSTODY OF CHILDREN
NICK NOLTE - JAIL TIME
MICKEY ROURKE - JAIL TIME
WINNONA RYDER - BUSTED
GEORGE MICHALE
RUSSLE CROW
ROBERT DOWNY JR. - JAIL-REHAB-HIT MOVIE ABOUT TO BE RELEASED

ANYONE WANT TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS?

Roman responds: Culzie, Don King spent time in prison. Ray Lewis did not beat a murder rap. No one ever thought he murdered anyone, just that he knew who did it. Did you ever think maybe Kobe didn't rape her? He didn't beat anything, he got justice.
And wasn't Paris let out of jail because she was going to have a nervous breakdown? It seems when a movie star gets busted, they're sent to rehab.

OJ - GOT AWAY WITH MURDER
AL SHARPTON - HIS VERSION OF CHAPPAQUITICK
RAY LEWIS - BEAT MURDER RAP
MICHEAL JACKSON - SERIEL CHILD MOLESTER - FREE MAN
KOBE BRYANT - BEAT A RAPE CHARGE
DON KING - BEAT A MURDER RAP
THAT CONGRESSMAN WHO HAD THE 10K IN HIS FREEZER
SNOOP DOG ( I WONT GET INTO RAPPERS, BUT COME ON, THESE GUYS ARE ATL)

MICHAEL JORDON - BEAT HIS SEXUAL HARRASMENT CASE - I KNOW CAUSE MY UNCLE WAS THE JUDGE

THATS NOT A BAD LIST OF GET OFFS KEITH.

CAN YOU NAME SOME BIG NAME WHITE CELEBS WHO BEAT THE LAW WHEN THEY PROBABLY WERE GUILTY (JUST OPINION). HERES MY LIST OF THOSE WHO GOT BUSTED THOUGH...OH ROBERT BLAKE....THATS THE ONLY ONE I CAN THINK OF.

ENRON EXECS- BUSTED
ANDERSEN CONSULTANTS EXECS- BUSTED
MARTHA STEWERT - DID TIME
PARIS HILTON - DID TIME
BRITTANY SPEARS - LOST CUSTODY OF CHILDREN
NICK NOLTE - JAIL TIME
MICKEY ROURKE - JAIL TIME
WINNONA RYDER - BUSTED
GEORGE MICHALE
RUSSLE CROW
ROBERT DOWNY JR. - JAIL-REHAB-HIT MOVIE ABOUT TO BE RELEASED

ANYONE WANT TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS?

You see Keith, I wonder how much of what you say is ACTUALLY TRUE...and how much is a preconcieved notion of an unfair system based solely on reverse racist hype!!

Your totally Wrong!

Also....Kobe just gave it to a groupie more rough than she was probaly fantasizing about....and then he told her to GET OUT and not say a word to anyone....so...she felt bad about it got buyers remorse, and cried rape. It probably was scary for her, he probably did some unspeakable things to her, but she mustve been more willing than she originally led on. So they settled out.

If he wasnt a star, there wouldnt have been a story in the first place.

Keith, Aramis Ramirez isn't a victim of anything. He's gotten more press here because he is a local athlete, obviously, but he certainly has not been victimized by the attention. I doubt he reads this blog (no offense, Roman) and the comments here have been mixed anyway. We're probably a good cross-section of how most people in this city feel, so I doubt he'll be "victimized" by fans either. Other than that, how are you measuring this victimization anyway? I don't really think it's even a national story. They definitely don't talk about it with any frequency (if at all anymore) on any of the channels I watch or radio stations I listen to. Why shouldn't he be named in this story? That's the newsworthy part of the whole thing. Maybe he brought this subject to the forefront of our attention, but we'll all soon forget about it. Trust me, we are a very forgiving society. Remember Marv Albert?

You know Keith, Kobe falls into that forgiving society category that I was talking about too, right? He got off - you said it yourself - because he had the money and notoriety to help his cause. Last I checked, he's still got his job/money/fame/family. How was he victimized? Because he had to sit though some tough pre-trial hearings? Because his wife was mad at him for a couple of weeks? He bought her back too, remember. Just because a famous person is in the news for their bad behavior doesn't mean they are being victimized, as you say. It just means they are famous.

Culzie - we agree. If Kobe wasnt famous, she is not even looking for him. So why do you think she was looking??? TO GET PAID - and that is what makes Kobe a victim.

I know you are not suggesting that black folks get a break in the courts and whites don't...LOL!! I am in a hysterical laughing fit now!!! Dying cracking up!!! In Hawks Voice: "This debate is OVAH!!!"

Black celebs obviously do.....check out the facts.

Clearly I would never argue that Black People or scratch that....impoverished people....get screwed by the cops.

But....Obviously not Black Celebs....name one that GOT WHAT HE DESERVED?

also...truthfully....

I think that colorado inn keeper front desk girl was blinded by his celebrity, and since in our society...fame is the ultimate goal....she wanted to be around it.

I bet she had a fantasy of Kobe in the Silk sheets....and breakfast in bed....and Jets to LA games.....

but when he bent her over a chair and then told her to get out...

well...

maybe then she decided to settle the score...

but....i dont think she went into it, thinking she was gonna scam him.

I really dont.

Black celebs obviously do.....check out the facts.

Clearly I would never argue that Black People or scratch that....impoverished people....DONT get screwed by the cops.

But....Obviously not Black Celebs....name one that GOT WHAT HE DESERVED?

also...truthfully....

I think that colorado inn keeper front desk girl was blinded by his celebrity, and since in our society...fame is the ultimate goal....she wanted to be around it.

I bet she had a fantasy of Kobe in the Silk sheets....and breakfast in bed....and Jets to LA games.....

but when he bent her over a chair and then told her to get out...

well...

maybe then she decided to settle the score...

but....i dont think she went into it, thinking she was gonna scam him.

I really dont.

Well, I got cut off from this discussion for some reason. Just know that I had some very good points!!!

Hey Ricky - where are my comments from 2 days ago? Be a good boy and post them, would you please. The first one ends with "Marv Albert."

Ricky responds: I think I found them

Some day Roman, you will have to release an un-edited version of this blog on DVD.

From Cock Fighting to Kobe's Legal Battle..

FULL CIRLCE!

Thanks, Sweetie!

Ricky...can you be a dear...and run and get me a cup of coffee?

I am on a roll today...and I dont want to break my concentration..

thanks sweetie!!

Its rare that a thread goes over 200 posts.

The last time this happened it was a REX post.

The other times it has happened in recent memory, it almost always had a racial divide in the story line.

So, obviously....I deduce that this town is torn by two things..

Racism...and Rexism

OJ - GOT AWAY WITH MURDER
AL SHARPTON - HIS VERSION OF CHAPPAQUITICK
RAY LEWIS - BEAT MURDER RAP
MICHEAL JACKSON - SERIEL CHILD MOLESTER - FREE MAN
KOBE BRYANT - BEAT A RAPE CHARGE
DON KING - BEAT A MURDER RAP
THAT CONGRESSMAN WHO HAD THE 10K IN HIS FREEZER
SNOOP DOG ( I WONT GET INTO RAPPERS, BUT COME ON, THESE GUYS ARE ATL)

MICHAEL JORDON - BEAT HIS SEXUAL HARRASMENT CASE - I KNOW CAUSE MY UNCLE WAS THE JUDGE

THATS NOT A BAD LIST OF GET OFFS KEITH.

CAN YOU NAME SOME BIG NAME WHITE CELEBS WHO BEAT THE LAW WHEN THEY PROBABLY WERE GUILTY (JUST OPINION). HERES MY LIST OF THOSE WHO GOT BUSTED THOUGH...OH ROBERT BLAKE....THATS THE ONLY ONE I CAN THINK OF.

ENRON EXECS- BUSTED
ANDERSEN CONSULTANTS EXECS- BUSTED
MARTHA STEWERT - DID TIME
PARIS HILTON - DID TIME
BRITTANY SPEARS - LOST CUSTODY OF CHILDREN
NICK NOLTE - JAIL TIME
MICKEY ROURKE - JAIL TIME
WINNONA RYDER - BUSTED
GEORGE MICHALE
RUSSLE CROW
ROBERT DOWNY JR. - JAIL-REHAB-HIT MOVIE ABOUT TO BE RELEASED

ANYONE WANT TO DISPUTE THESE FACTS?

Posted by: bculz | February 21, 2008 06:47 PM

Wow! I had to stop at this one. Just because they got off means nothing. They represent 1 percent of society. Culze you're better than that. I'm going to take that entire posting as a typo or an alcohol induced stupor. Keith, find some more excuses that we can use for Culze. He didn't just type that b.s. I'm sure. I know, it must have been his kid or something. Don't get me into the stats plaguing our criminal institutions and the disparities surround minorities vs. caucasians. Let's keep this one at cock fighting Aramis and his guilt.

So what you're saying (bculz) is that white people are more likely to be arrested and convicted for crimes than black men. Would you mind showing some evidence other than celebrity daytime gossip? Let's take a field trip to the FBI fact page.

EF...thanks dude...I qualified it by saying Celebs...and specifically stated, that the average joe brotha' gets screwed...most people who live in impoverished neighborhoods have to deal with Bad police...I dont think its EXCLUSIVE to Blacks either.

There are bad cops in Hispanic communities, Arab communities, China town, little Italy, Hells Kitchen...

I bet trailer trash cops arent the nicest either...

so....dont feel bad all by yourself...

COPS ARE TOUGH ON ALL CRIMINALS!

Not just Black ones!

EF - it was so funny that I was at a total loss for words to properly respond.

Jewels - good points, but just because he beat the case and paid to put everything back in order does not mean that he wasn't victimized. When a woman is raped, she is still alive right? Can still have kids? Nothing a little money cant make right? Not to make light of that, but YEAH that's how it feels to be chumped. That night - cost KOBE a lot of money, time, grief - and his family so much embarrasment, hurt and shame.

Like i've pointed out to Roman on occassion, this blog is more popular than we think. And what if a major sponsor was thinking of using Ramy and was reading this blog? What about a team that was thinking of trading for him? What if the PETA people got after him looking for a new martyr? Julie would you really want people to talk about you in a negative light simply because you were famous? Out of thousands that were doing the same thing - a newspaper headlined YOUR name simply because you are famous.

DONT SENSOR ME ON MY LAST POST RICKER...IT WAS GOOD

Keith...are you aware that slander and defimation laws apply differently to people in the public spotlight vs.private citizens.

Politicians too have it just as rough as celebs.

The law actually makes a distinction, why cant you?

You know what Keith, I think most famous people crave attention, positive or negative. These so-called victims of yours were famous first, their negative behavior was reported second. The public doesn't care about the thousands of unfabulous people before them engaging in the same behavior, that's not news. Everyone has choices in life, no one forced these famous people to engage in bad behavior. It's their fame, that they otherwise use to their advantage, that makes it newsworthy. Kobe, whether you believe he raped that girl or not, admitted to adultery at a press conference. He was the sole cause of the embarrassment, hurt and shame that was felt by his family.

Culzie, I am not arguing law. I am arguing morality. That has been my consistance stance in this conversation. Not saying the press is not legally right to print it, I am saying its morally wrong to use the famous like that. And definitely wrong for folks like that lady to offer herself up - and then when things do go to here liking use that man's fame for gain - and to hurt him. All I am asking is - shouldn't the famous mistakes be treated like OURS? Or do you guy really think - that just because you have money and fame - that things should be more SEVERE for just THEM?

Jewels - you are absolute right about Kobe the adulterer. You get NO argument from me on that. But if you don't think what that young lady did was wrong - then I am speechless. SHE also is an adulteress and helped cause Kobe's wife and family pain. Just because its doable, does not mean that you should do it. These are cons and opportunists who feel like they are NOT going to WORK for theirs - and instead leech off of someone else. Its easy to accept it if its someone you don't like - like a dumb athlete. But when its someone we like and respect "getting the treatment", then we pounce on them. Like the woman that is giving Urlacher the "treatment". Much too often...aaaaall depends on who it is - on both sides too.

I never said she was without fault in the situation.

Roman responds: I love how these side-discussions are buried at the end of long threads.

Hey Roman! What's up? I didn't want you to feel left out of our buried side-conversation that has absolutely nothing to do with Aramis Ramirez, the Dominican Republic, cockfighting/animal cruelty or The Breakfast Club. Hey, did you hear? That movie came out before your Little Ricky was even born. Astonishing they make 'em so young still. Well, okay then, gotta run. Hope you're well. Let me know when you need me to get started on that guest blogger thing.

A simple....

I hear you Culzie...

would suffice!

Keith...seriously...

Ill ask you again...

Name a couple of Celebs....black or white...

that got a HARSHER sentance...than the average Joe woulda got.

Also....name some Black athletes who got the BOOK thrown at them...and didnt deserve it? (since you havent answered that question either).

Roman responds: You ever hear of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter? And take a look at all of the guys freed from Death Row because of DNA evidence. I don't know if any of them were athletes, but almost every one I've seen is black.

I said Keith name one..

and..

were not talking about average joe's..
we have all agreed that there is injustice for minorities when it has come to the legal system. Im not a dipsh*t.

but...

it just seems that the shoe are comfortably on the other foot when it comes to minority celebs.

Thats all!

also...dont worry about any more clandestine convo's on this thread...from me/.

once the posts leave the main page...i typically dont check them...

with the eggseption of old Vick and Tank posts!

I'm so sick of people saying they don't care what he does in his country. That's it's none of our business. Wake up people. How can you be so lazy in your thinking? If you can cheer on someone with a sick mind like this, you're just as sick as he is. Cruelty to animals is cruelty.How can you cheer on cruelty? I don't care where he does it. If he was abusing children in his country, would you still be saying it's none of our business? I have been a Cub fan all of my life and I can't even stomach to look at the team as long as Aramis is on it.