Commit to the ....

Maybe they should ask all the casinos that they run throughout the country to donate some money.

I think donating a portion of the profits from the 'Commit to the Indian' merchandise, if done tactfully, would help create a better relationship with the American Indian groups in Chicago.

Though, I think retiring the late Keith Magunson's #3 jersey would help tremendously in the Hawks showing they want to commit themselves to the past.

"Maggie' was the ultimate team captain, gave himself on and off the ice, the 'ideal' team players, never backed down to anyone in defending his teammates and team, an extremely hard worker, and was a thoughful friend and family man.

Once again the media is missing the point; its no wonder the Sun-Times is losing money and downsizing (eventually going under). It’s the Carol Slezaks', Greg Couchs' and Jay Marriottis' that have doomed this paper.

It’s called committing to your team. To your organization. To yourself.

Roman responds: I'm not sure if you've noticed, but papers all over the country are losing money and downsizing.

The past few days, all I've heard about how Savard said about not being committed to the symbol! He didn't mean it that way, he was talking about how they've been playing like they are committed to the team. He didn't mean it literally..... It has nothing to do with the indian head in general. Some people better think about what they say before they say it. I knew exactly what he meant.

Needless to say, we have a lot of people that go around making obtuse statements about any and everything someone says. We that love hockey and the Blackhawk’s totally understand and support what Savard was saying and understood what he meant.

Thank you Roman! Its racist and hurtful to those people. And Savard was only trying to fire up his team, but folks are already plastering that Indian on tee-shirts with that catchphrase. And its ok to have TEAM pride which is all it is to the fans, but at a cost to someone else. Political Correctness refers to senseless political rhetoric, but racial insensitivity can hurt or offend an entire people. Blackhawks don't need it, especially right now.

It will never happen, but the Blackhawks - need to find two black hawks (birds) to be their mascot. It doesn't matter how stoic and classy they display their Indian, its still racist, tomohawk and all. And YES the jersey is cool and the colors are beautiful, but the subliminal message is quite ugly. And for those who cannot understand - when your people have been obliterated and nearly extinguished you kinda want to move on from it. And then to live in a city with an Indian name and have the descendants of those who took you out prance around with a blood-red jersey on it with a picture of probably one of your ancestors plastored on their chest. Or can you imagine being a Indian grandparent and have your grandchild come running into the livingroom with that Jersey on? Then have to sit him down...

I like the Blackhawks and know nothing will happen. But my heart goes out to the Indians. And to ANYONE that is being mistreated, especially unecessarily. There are many symbols and mascots that look really cool and would be great sellers, but offensive.

I think they should have a kid in war paint skating around the ice. Then maybe people would be inspired about the Blackhawks like they are about the Illini.

With all the evil that's in the world, and with all the difficulties that their people face, why are Native Americans wasting all of their time and energy trying to eliminate symbols that invoke unparalleled pride, joy, and camaraderie such as the Hawk's Indian head or Chief Illiniwek?

We need more things in this world that invoke such good feelings in people, not fewer. It's been a long, long time since the Hawks inspired me as they did w/ Savard's comment, and clearly I'm not alone. Why would a person want to make this stop?

And why would the Hawks bow to a small negative faction instead of running with the pride of their fans?

I'm especially upset w/ Slezak for her utterly unoriginal journalistic efforts, especially because they only serve to dampen what should be a growing excitement for the Hawks while giving us nothing new or interesting.

I don't understand the big deal about any of the Indian based nicknames. I remember when the Naperville Central team was the Redskins and they had to give into peer pressure to change to the Redhawks. I don't see the Irish people getting all bent out of shape for Notre Dame's use of the Fighting Irish and their mascot. As a society we have to stop giving in to political correctness so much. Especially over things that are not offensive.

These articles and comments are the kinds of things that happen when those involved have no concept of sports psychology. Savard's comment was made in an attempt to motivate his players to commit to the tradition of Blackhawk hockey. In addition, I imagine his words were intended to inspire the players to commit themselves to eachother, the fans and the organization. The purpose of the words was very simple. Start playing hockey the way it's meant to be played as a member of the Blackhawks. Any reference to the Indian is only sybolic and is intended to instill pride that is Blackhawk hockey.

Carol Slezak and Joe Podlasek should take note and find Savard's words encouraging and look at themselves and how they can better commit to their own endeavors and stop this weak attempt at obtaining selfish headlines.

Roman responds: Again, there's no question Savvy was trying to inspire the troops and get them to have pride in the sweater that used to represent excellence, or at least toughness. But the notion the Hawks were going to market the slogan with marketing guru John McDonough made it an interesting story.

People need to get a life. When will native Americans finally become just Americans. And why do they still need to be fed? Why can't they take care of themselves. And what does all this have to do with a proud symbol of the Blackhawks. Coach Savard's comments were complementary to Indians. He basically said, why can't you live up to your name, be brave and strong. But, no, the activists want to relegate Indians to the reservation of our mind and not promote their proud heritage which is what the Blackhawks do. Congratulations to Coach Savard. I, for one, will Commit to the Indian.

I have noticed newspapers are going under, but the Sun Times seems to be going down at alarming speed.

Good luck in your job search.

All he meant was being committed to the franchise's rich history. As an Irish person can I get upset about Notre Dame using a leprachaun as a mascot?

Roman responds: If I were you, I'd be upset about Notre Dame's football players calling themselves the Irish.

Carol should be ashamed of herself for such a tasteless column.
She knew what Denis meant and purposely tried to make something
out of nothing. It had nothing to do with any part of the Indian
Nation and everybody knew that. Shame on the Sun-Times sports
editors for letting this article of misrepresentation of facts
and true meaning of what Denis Savard had to say... TO HIS TEAM!

Personally, I am not a hockey fan, but this article bothered me. It is obvious to anyone that the comment did not refer to any ethnic group, but to a team. Much like the statement "you play for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back." In addition, the use of the word "indian" is about a logo that any child old enough to speak can identify. Put up that logo and ask what it is to a 1st grade child and they will say its an "indian." Its not racially charged, it is just identifying it. Do we need to eliminate any mascot/logo that was once an actual group of people? How bout Cowboys/Patriots/Mountineers, their logos/mascots don't encompass the entire group of people. Lets basically eliminate anything that is not an animal or inanimate object (Heat). That will solve it, but then of course someone will complain that they are called an animal .... Its just getting out of hand.

It's good for the Indian spokesman to look for people to embrace his people and organization. Carol Slezak is looking to stir up a controversy. Carol and the Indian spokesman are looking to take advantage of a situation for personal gain or power.

Denis Savard's "commit to the Indian" comment was not in any way directed toward the Indian people and everyone knows it.
People need to worry about taking care of each other and quit being so OFFENDED!

Whatever Carol Slezak thinks, the Blackhawk's Indian is a symbol of strength and pride.
For Carol to create a "problem" out of this is what the media does best.

Jim Duffy

Once again, this political correctness garbage is killing the Sun Times. Savard a racist? Puhleeez...He is a hockey coach. He is trying to motivate a professional hockey team. This is what good coaches do. He wants his team to believe in the logo on the front of the jersey and not play for the name on the back. When I hear "Commit to the Indian" It does not want to make me disrespect any American Indian in any way or form. I do not poke fun at American Indians because of the Chief Blackhawk logo. I guess this man has never heard of Blackhawk charities. Maybe Podlesak is a racist. Does he have a problem with Canadian born hockey coaches? See? When will this nonsense ever end???

Once again, this political correctness garbage is killing the Sun Times. Savard a racist? Puhleeez...He is a hockey coach. He is trying to motivate a professional hockey team. This is what good coaches do. He wants his team to believe in the logo on the front of the jersey and not play for the name on the back. When I hear "Commit to the Indian" It does not want to make me disrespect any American Indian in any way or form. I do not poke fun at American Indians because of the Chief Blackhawk logo. I guess this man has never heard of Blackhawk charities. Maybe Podlesak is a racist. Does he have a problem with Canadian born hockey coaches? See? When will this nonsense ever end???

Roman responds: No one said Savvy is a racist. But when someone wrote the Hawks were going to market the slogan and make money, it took a different turn. We all know what Savvy meant.

So Carol Slezak, did you go to this American Indian Counsel and ask them for their opinion or did they come to you? You people should be ashamed of yourselves for trying to start a controversy where none exists. The American Indian Counsel should be ashamed of itself for pandering for money. Find me a Blackhawk tribe member or an Illini for that matter and I will gladly pay them a dollar for the joy I get out of 'using' their likeness to enjoy my favorite sports team.
Roman responds: Pete, she contacted them of course. And I encouraged her to. They couldn't have known she was writing that. You always try to get both sides.
I agree we're being too politically correct here, but let me be the devil's advocate. Native Americans have not been treated very well in this country. And please don't talk about the casinos, because while I don't know for sure, I'm guessing there's a small group of people (and I'm guessing it's not entirely a group of Native Americans) that reaps the rewards of the casinos. Some of the logos - like Cleveland's - are blatantly racist and should be changed. So while I don't agree the Hawks are acting improperly - and I love the logo, I wouldn't try to silence of the voice of Native Americans on this subject.

Just like most of the media on the Kelly Tighlman "lynching" comment -- Slezak has taken Savard's words and twisted their meaning and their intent.

Everyone knows what Savard meant -- commit to team, to one another, to the fans. Even if he meant Commit to the Indian literally (and I am reasonably sure he didn't), I don't see what's wrong with committing to the ideals of a proud, loyal and brave Native American hero, but that's not for me to judge.

Slezak is chasing a red herring. Wonder if Carol is willing to put her money where her mouth is and make a contribution to the center as well.

This was never meant to be a marketing ploy. Its was a coach telling his players to commit the jersey they wear. of course the media runs with it and now its an issue.

get a friggin grip.

I think if your honoring a real tribe with the tribal leaders permission or blessing, then im ok with it.

But...NO ONE should have to change their logo until the Washington RedSkins change theirs...

How ludicris that our nations capital...has a football team...that is named one of the MOST racist and derrogatory terms we have ever come up with.

I mean...the N word is the only word I can think of that is worse.

RED SKINS? I mean is that not crazy to everyone???

Why not rename the Wizards...the "Slant Eyes" and rename the Nationals..."The Blackies"

do we live in 1905 still or what??

Roman responds: I think the Indians' logo is the worst. Have you taken a good look at that lately? But yes, Redskins is pretty bad.

I think he is just trying to get some money by cornering the Blackhawks. I can not see the racism at all. When referring to the Indian, Savvy was obviously referring only to the teams logo. In no way is that racist. If the Hawks are going to give any money, I hope it is to someone who needs it, not someone who already has food, shelter, and still gets paid for something that happened several hundred years ago. It makes me mad when someone looks for small things to complain about just to get money in return.
Go Hawks
COMMIT TO THE INDIAN
not the tribes, but the frickin logo.
END OF STORY

What's next? Animal activists protesting teams using animal names and logo's? Bye bye Bulls, Cubs, Bears, Bucks et al. Then protesting team names glorifying natural disasters..bye bye Avalanche, Hurricanes, cyclones. Short people (vertically challenged people if I am to be pc) protesting the Giants? Religious people protesting the Wizards and Devils of all colors as being of the occult? It would seem that only names like Lakers,Nuggets and Nets would be safe. Even the Red and White Sox could be targeted by protesting sweatshop textile workers. In an effort to appease all groups I suggest that the Bears be renamed the Chicago Nightmare,the Sox be renamed the Chicago Bust, The Cubs be renamed the Chicago Heartbreakers, and the Bulls be renamed the Chicago Joke.

What should the Hawks give any money to this type of PC extortion?

I'll buy a shirt with the slogan on it well before I'd give these whiners anything.

Roman responds: I'm not sure if you've noticed, but papers all over the country are losing money and downsizing.

Posted by: Mike | January 29, 2008 07:23 AM

THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULDNT JUST WILLY NILLY HAND OVER THE REIGHNS OF THIS BLOG TO JUST ANY KID WITH STIFF PENCIL...

THESE BLOGS ARE THE FUTURE OF NEWS MY MAN....YOU SHOULDNT TAKE RUNNING IT SO LIGHTLY....YOU COULD BE ONE OF THE MOST READ WRITERS IN ST....RIGHT NOW....WITH JUST THIS BLOG.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY HITS A DAY THIS BLOG GETS? UNIQUE PAGE VIEWS? FIGURE YOU GET AROUND 60-80 POSTS PER THREAD....5-7 THREADS A WEEK....AND THATS JUST THE POSTERS....THERE HAVE TO BE 10 XS IMES MORE LOOKY LOO'S.

WOW BUDDY....THATS A GREAT MARKET SHARE OF THE FUTURE OF NEWS..AND YOUR REACH IS INTERNATIONAL...SINCE MOST OF US CANT SUBSCRIBE TO THE PRINT PAPER...

JUST MY 50 CENTS...ER UH I MEAN...FITTY!

Roman responds: Ok, let me reiterate, the all-caps style always strikes me as insane. But that could just be me. And I didn't pick Ricky willy nilly. He's a smart kid who I think did a good job. But I'll reevaluate. You're right, this is important. And I spent three years developing a fairly large base of readers. I don't want to jeopardize that or lose one poster, except for those who type in all caps.

I read the Sun-Times every day and I can't remember them being a big advocate for the plight of Native-Americans. Carol ought to report on the awful levels of unemployment, alcoholism and suicide the Native-Americans face. The fact that major league teams use Indian logos is probably not high on the list of the average Native-American's concerns.

Why should anybody contribute to the center. The so called Native Americans have many casinos that make plenty of money, tax free,to contribute. As for Sevard, that is his team and he coaches the way he thinks is best. The writers think and believe they always know what is best and most of the time they are wrong. They remind me of the analysts about the stock market, where were they when the technical bubble bust.

I aggre, the Sun Times is going down the drain because of the sport writers. They have nothing but negative views about all sports. If they know so much why don't they apply for jobs as coaches. Like Harrelson of the White Sox, thet would not last. Remember how he use to complain about the Sox. Marrioti is the same. All mouth and a big one at that.

I love the Indian Head logo used by the Blackhawks; It's classic but unfortunately, not timeless. Things have changed quite a bit in the last 20 - 30 years with political correctness. I am not of Native American descent. My people originally came from Poland and I suffered many Polish jokes during my youth. I would be deeply insulted if the Penquins suddenly changed their names to the Pittsburgh Polacks. Native Americans are real people; so out of respect to those people, I say just end it and come up with a new name for Chicago's Pro Hockey team. - Tampa Tom

I think Native Americans feel that by voicing there displeasure about using there iconography in college and professional sports they are in some way protecting their heritage. While I agree that what early pioneers of this country did to destroy Native Americans and there culture was a crime against humanity, it does not warrant a "blackout" of using such symbols. The use of the "Indian" on the sweater is out admiration of native American culture. The vast majority of people who inhabit this country had nothing to do with the genocide of Native Americans. Long story short, let it go. Commit to the Indian.

I am actually shocked and disgusted at the comments posted thus far. I am not a hockey fan, but I support all Chicago teams, including the Blackhawks. I understand totally why some Native Americans are offended by the symbol. Our society has rid itself of the "Frito Bandito" we have given "Aunt Jemima" a makeover so that she looks like an average middle age Black woman as opposed to a slave, the U of I has taken away the Chief...

I don't belive that Savard meant what he said to be offensive, but it is surely a symptom of the disregard non-minority groups have for the sensitivities of minority groups. You will never see a mascot portraying Blacks, Jews or women so I wonder why as a society, we feel it is ok to use the Native American as a team symbol.

Guys...it's Carol Slezak for goodness sake. The same colunist who suggested it was too hot to play baseball a few years back when the temps hit 105.

More of a fundamental question: Aren't Native-Americans the only people who really can have a "take" on this issue? Sure, the nicknames has been around a long time and there is a sense of connectivity with the fan bases, but at the end of the day isn't it the faction of people being represented by the logo the ones who should have the most say in these arguments?

Whether these symbols are a tribute or in bad taste is open to interpretation, but I find it bizarre that other ethnic groups can outright deny out of hand that they have negative connotations.

We shouldn't besmirch a journalist who presents an issue and takes a side. One of the great things about sports is that they are reflections of society as a whole, and columns like this only further the discussion on larger public issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ALC-CLE-Insignia.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Washington_Redskins_1000.png

beautiful baby.

As was mentioned earlier, if the Blackhawks truly cared about what was important to the Native American people and wanted to find a symbol which stands for what the Native American culture today and also pay homage to their traditions, just the way they themselves have done, they should change their logo to..a tastefully designed CASINO CHIP!

I am of American Indian heritage and I have always been proud of the Blackhawk's logo. It is often mentioned as one of the best in sports and rightfully so. I do not see how the logo is racist at all and I do not even remotely share the opinoin of those who do. I am a fan of hockey and a huge fan of the team. I feel honored and relevant when I look at the dignified Indian head on my favorite teams sweater. I suppose that is how folks at the American Indian Center would suddenly feel if the Blackhawks were to donate to the cause or the aging facility. I am embarrassed by the opinoins of others who feel Savard's comments were hurtful. Please spend your energy fighting for the cause without including "the Indian". I love it.

Why does everyone get their panties in a bunch with every little comment that comes out in the sporting world??? How does having a picture of an indianhead offend native americans?? I'm greek and i'm not affended when USC trots out their "Trojan" on his faithful steed or when Hollywood decides to make some part of our long history into a horrific excuse for a movie (see Alexander).

There are a lot more important things to worry about in this world than people getting their feelings hurt because of a LOGO... a sports team, a quote by a frustrated coach, etc. GET OVER IT. The injustices against the native american people happened 500 years ago. There are immigrants in this country that prospered despite civil wars, communism, genocide, poverty, junta, and the list goes on. These people came to this country and prospered, not living off the injustices of their ancestors.

EVERYBODY.... STOP BEING SO SENSITIVE AND MOVE ON!!!!!!!!

Take a deep breath, everyone...........

The Blackhawks and fans do not intentionally slam Native Americans with the symbol or the slogans (well, except for some comments aired here). But it is the not knowing or understanding of a people, their history and their current challenges that creates long term problems with no good solutions.

Blackhawk was a respected leader in the early 19th century who tried to take back the land in Illinois & Wisconsin after genocide & relocation of Native Americans here. Why should a sports team use him as a symbol at all, when it has to do with a very painful period of history for people that still live here? Makes no sense to me.

"Find me a Blackhawk tribe member or an Illini for that matter and I will gladly pay them a dollar for the joy I get out of 'using' their likeness to enjoy my favorite sports team." - oops, all wiped out the last couple of centuries - you're off the hook.

Casinos always come up: Casinos are owned by very few Native American tribes, and of those only a small percentage are successful. The money goes to all the individuals of the tribe, and builds houses, clinics and schools for the people of the tribe. The tribes that have successful casinos do help Native Americans not of their tribes, and also they contribute to non-Native organizations & communities as well (Traverse Bay Odawas give thousands of dollars to Beaver Island community in Michigan for the schools, fire department, library, even though there are only a few handful of the several hundred people living there who are Odawa - one example only) - get the facts, please, before spouting out generalizations.

It ultimatley is not up to the BlackHawks or non-Native people to decide if something is offensive to Native people or not - it is up to them. Sounds like a no-brainer to me. I like the idea of two black hawk birds becoming the symbol.

Comparing an Irish leprechan symbol to a Native Chief or leader doesn't work. More like if a Catholic Priest, Nelson Mandella, JFK or perhaps Colin Powel were used as symbols or mascots.......that wouldn't be too tasteful in my book.

Just take a deep breath. Come to the American Indian Center's public pow wows and events, have a good time, try not to generalize, learn a little, share alot......maybe we don't need to use Native American leaders or symbols to get us in the team spirit. Let's just find something else.

Roman responds: Thanks for the post.

Please tell us how much Carol Slezak and Roman Modrowski have contributed to the American Indian Center. And don't just say "more than the Blackhawks": give us the total in dollars and cents.

Roman responds: What's your point? The story wasn't written because Savvy said that. It was written partly because someone wrote that the Hawks were thinking of using it as a marketing slogan.

COMMIT TO THE INDIAN

I'm India, and I'll be buying the shirt when it comes out.

Roman responds: I like it, but I don't think they're referring to people from India.

This whole PC thing about Indian mascots has pretty much shot its wad.
College teams have been affected, but I still think it's a load of BS.
Why?
Illinois was forced to capitualte, as was St. John's a few years back even though "St. John's Redmen"
-- which was created decades ago -- had to do with the fact that they wore red uniforms.
They had stopped using an Indian mascot years ago, yet were still forced to change their name.
But the Florida Seminole was given some kind of special dispensation.
WHAT? Why?
Who knows. Whatever reason they've given sounds like selective enforcement to me.
Either ban ALL college Indian mascots, or ban none.
You can't have it both ways.
Pro mascots -- you'll never change.
Privately owned, too much money already invested.
The one thing that's true about the article is, why CAN'T the
Blackhawks help feed some Indian families?
I think if you use an Indian mascot, college or pro, you
should be required to provide something for Indians
in your area, whether it be food, education, or tickets
to your games.
The Blackwawk logo is not only the best in hockey, but one of the best in sports, period.
If the team can "Commit to the Indian" in terms of pride of play,
then the organization can surely commit to some real Indians who need some real support.

WOW! I have never seen such a self righteous group of %$#@^, poor excuse for humans. Being mixed blood "OJIBWAY",Irish and German, I always offended by stereotypes, particularly NATIVE AMERICANS. You white folks are a hoot, you take no responsibility for your savage actions against us. You think all tribes have casinos, you think of us as second class peoples, while you live on stolen Scared ground. We as a group could care less about sports teams.
How about this. We rename the Blackhawks, Irish hooligans or shanty Irish. The Redskins to the Ubangis, they could all wear African tribal dress or better yet how about the Washington coonskins, or Atlanta Crypts
How about the Cleveland Crackers or better yet the Cleveland Nazis
Oh yeah! I'm sure all of you would be proud to wear those jerseys.
I'll bet you think those comments are racist, they are, and THATS THE POINT. Now for the Coment, its out of place and racist. For all of you haters out there, get a life.
MAKWAH

This will be a politically incorrect post, so you've been warned. It will also be the truth.

I'm not sure how many native Americans Slesak knows but I can say I know quite a LOT of them & they are not of one tribe of thinking as Slesak suggests.

Those that I know split much like America in terms of conservative & liberal thinking. I do not know which side represents the majority of native Americans in this nation but I do know in my circle the conservatives do.

The conservative native Americans I know fear political correctness seeking to diminish their heritage more than anything else. They aren't offended by the term "Indian" & what's more we joke about it. The term only came into being because some dumb Spaniard thought he had sailed around the world when he first saw them.

They like the idea that school's, towns, & even states retain the names of their tribes, & aspects of their heritage. In their opinion revisionist history as only served to greaten the honor of that heritage. Most of American's now see American Indians as a heritage of tenacious people with bold ideas, strong social order, & deep-founded religion. They see them as victims of colonialism. They even joke with me that they American Indians are seen as more honorable in America today than any other race.

The liberal native Americans I know are not much different than liberals in general. They are so adamant against war these days that any reference to the warring part of their heritage is offensive to them. Of course just like the liberals in general they get most of the media attention.

I'm not sure how these two groups break down economically but I do know some of the conservatives I know are part of the casino gambling on American Indian reservations that have proven to be more profitable than Las Vegas. They are proud of their heritage & even happier that both honor & a guilty conscience make it easy for Americans in general to game with them.

Personally I'm against turning America bland. I like her spice & I think it makes us a better nation. We did not grow to our current strength with people easily offended. We grew with tenacity & an "I'll show you" attitude.

http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/blackhawk/ "Commit to the Indian" is not just any indian. A sportswriter should at least know the heritage of the state!

More crazness. Maybe we just do away with lanuage completely and beat on our chests.

This country is becoming more and more carzy everyday and the best is yet to come.

Here's the point, Captain Stupid: Carol wants to lecture the Hawks on how worthy this charity is by pointing out the need for repairs. She can help out.

Pinhead says that the casinos shouldn't be mentioned because others benefit besides the Indians. Listen simpleton: the casinos WOULD NOT BE THERE without the Indians, simple as that. No matter how few they are, they can eliminate the casinos and their profits at their whim. Therefore, they can dictate where the profits go.

How obtuse are you? My dog could get into PU-Calumet.

Roman responds: If you're going to be insulting, at least be somewhat clever about it. Perhaps that's too much to ask with you. Captain Stupid? Witty.

Sally and Roman thanks.

Paul Lawrence Dunbar wrote a poem called the Mask. It says, just because no one ever complains or says a thing doesn't mean they don't feel the pain. People get angry when you tell them that its hurtful what they are doing and saying so you keep silent. And by saying nothing - they turn around and think that its ok and they are right. Golden Rule is all but dead.

We Wear The Mask
We wear the mask that grins and lies,
It hides our cheeks and shades our eyes,--
This debt we pay to human guile;
With torn and bleeding hearts we smile,
And mouth with myriad subtleties.
Why should the world be over-wise,
In counting all our tears and sighs?
Nay, let them only see us, while
We wear the mask.
We smile, but, O great Christ, our cries
To thee from tortured souls arise.
We sing, but oh the clay is vile
Beneath our feet, and long the mile;
But let the world think other-wise,
We wear the mask!

It is for the American Indian Community to determine whether it is offensive. If they say it's offensive, it's offensive--end of story.

While I strongly suggest that Mr. Podlasek to grow up and lighten up a bit and - to echo Gino's point - stop being so insensitive, I also happen to know that his organization is a very noble one and has done wonderful things for the community to which it serves. But, if he is looking for some additional assistance for the Native American community, I recommend he should do a legitmate campaign himself, rather trying to slander or project guilt toward a very charitable organization (mind you), like the Chicago Blackhawks.

That said, I don't see how either "Commit to the Indian" or the logo would be offensive. And if it were supported by the Blackhawk organization as a marketing campaign, so what? It's clear what the saying and the logo are referring to.

As for the "respect" aspect, the Blackhawk symbol depicts one of the great Native Americans in our history, Chief Blackhawk - a man who fought through much controversy in the early settler and gained great respect among the white settlers and American Indians alike.

Lastly, the responsibility of this little controversy is clearly on Carol Slezak and her editor. I know it's a slow sports news period, but I'd prefer that her and other writers' talents be used more constructively and less destructively.

The Sun-Times may have sold some more papers today, but, with writing like this, I'm doubtful that it reverses its current downward spiral.

In closing, I repeat Tom's point, "...take a deep breath..."

Roman responds:
1. So the guy does good work for the community but you think he needs to "grow up." Huh?
2. The Hawks are a charitable organization? I know they do some charity work, like all pro teams, but it is not a charitable organization.

I just wanted to say that I know Savvy didn't mean anything disrespectful by his comment. He just wanted to remind his players that they should be commited to the team. It has nothing to do with the "symbol". Why is it that 99% of the time the Blackhawks get no attention at all but now all of a sudden we have to create drama? I think the reporter was just fishing for trouble. If she wanted to give the Hawks some press time, why didn't she acknowledge the great job that Kane and Keith did in the All Stars? Why not acknowledge the great job Lalime has been doing now that he has gotten some play time? How about Patrick Sharp's record of short handed goals. Adam Burish made his first NHL goal a few games ago. Why not accent the positive instead of looking to start trouble? Whats the matter the Bulls wern't causing enough drama with their team nonsense? Nothing against the Bulls but the silliness with Noah and his time was newsworthy for days. The true Hawk fans will stand behind Savvy and we know that he meant no harm in his words. If she really wanted to start trouble I'm surprised that she didn't bring up the fact that Savvy himself and 98% of the team isn't even American. I have to say that I am quite offended by her article and may not continue reading the Sun Times if thats how the reporters are going to be.

''For a fan base to use that statement as its motto is terrible,'' he said. ''What are they teaching the kids? These old symbols perpetuate the belief that American Indians are a thing of the past and that natives don't exist.''

--I think anyone old enough to understand the sport of hockey also knows that American Indians are NOT a thing of the past and in fact DO KNOW they exist. 'The kids' who show up for Hawks games with their parents and wear the sweater with pride surely know about the past and current plight of native Americans and would never intentionally disrespect an entire culture. I would venture that Podlasek's comment here was as shortsighted as he claims Savard's to be.

''It is very insulting, No. 1,'' he said. ''Comments like that make no sense. They speak to racism and a lack of awareness of what symbols mean. It's a lack of cultural understanding for him to make that kind of statement.''

--I am not debating Podlasek's right to be upset, but he failed to explain exactly HOW Savard saying 'Commit to the Indian' are racist or show a lack of cultural understanding.

Also, just for the record Roman, if you have notcied the last few the Cleveland Indians have basically abandoned the old Chief Wahoo logo. The hats and jerseys now feature a script I and not the smiling face old Indians fans came to love.

Looking ahead to the future, when will our neighbor state bow to political pressure and pick another name other than Indiana? That's the ugly dead end to which this road will eventually come.

An interesting story about this issue: I lived in Southwestern Colorado in the late 80´s and early 90´s. I am a liberal guy and at times find some of the ethnic names of teams like Figting Irish, Redskins etc to be potentially insulting and demeaning. What if a team were named the Blackskins or the Whiteskins?? Anyhow, on one of my many weekend excursions from Durango Colorado to go camping or exploring in the beautiful Four Corners region, some friends and I were driving through the Navajo Reservation in Northern Arizona. We drove through a small village. Painted on the wall of the middle school was the school name which I don´t recall. It also said, "Home of the Fighting Redskins." We found this interesting. Also, while going to school in Durango, my school, Fort Lewis College which give many scholarships to Native Americans, changed its team names and mascot from Raiders-A white guy on a horse carrying a sicle which was historically used to kill Native Americans- to Skyhawks, a bird of prey. Sadly, we live in a world where it is pretty hard not to offend people.

Denis Savard's 'Commit to the Indian' demand to his team has created a big stir among the Hawks organ-I-zation. And, I believe the Hawks should use the demand and 'tactfully' sell merchandise with a portion of the revenue to help support local Indian communities.

Though, I believe if the Hawks wants to continue to 'Connect to the Past', they should retire jersey #3 for two Hawks legends, the late Keith 'Maggie' Magnuson and Pierre Pilote.(The retirement of the same jersey number is something the Cubs may also do in the near future for Fergie Jenkins' and Greg Maddux's #31.)

Many people may be old enough to remember 'Maggie' and the things he brought to the Hawks both on and off the ice, including his work with several charitable organizations and his unwillingness to back down to any opponent in defending a teammate or his team,

However, many people may have no clue who Pierre Pilote is. Pilote was a 3-time Norris Trophy winner and runner-up in (3) other years, team captain from 1961-68 (Including the last Stanley Cup team in 1961), elected into the Hockey Hall-of-Fame in 1975, and ranks #6 All-time in Hawks history in assists 400, #11 in games played (821), and #17 in total points (477).

The organ-I-zation may 'Commit to the Indian', but, continue to 'Connect to the Past' as well.

"It was written partly because someone wrote that the Hawks were thinking of using it as a marketing slogan."

Who is someone?

When oh when did the Hawks say they were going to use it as a marketing slogan? The only on the record comment I have seen was John McD on Tribune Live yesterday saying they "WERE NOT" going to use it. Did Carole have an early deadline or something? Let's remember who the author was. She wanted Kobe banned a few years back and then wrote how the Bulls should be pursuing him. I thought Jay had the rights to "Flip Flop" name.

I got to know my share of Native Americans in 20yrs...in AZ...Navajo/Apache/and Pima Indians

I have some funny stories...like 'em..fear 'em.. respect 'em... a fascinating culture...that's what I got out of it...you can call it.. my views...and yes...fear...like spirit horse type fear....I don't suggest eating peyote til you're ready for it

I'm way more Hiawatha than Carol is Pocohantas...

what I'm tryin to say....now that I'm as validated as that little green hooligan that does push ups in South Bend...cuz I'm Irish/Italian...

I love ND...my Italian side broke away from the Catholic church in Milan around 1900...I'm still not Catholic...I would wear a TD Jesus shirt all day, tho...Catholics?...It's Somethin about Mary, right?...but TD Jesus gets all the glory?... where's Mary?...answer..down the road

They should change their name to the ND Marys...especially the way they've been playing...but...I get a new ND hat every year...and still would...Go Marys!!..I like ND football...its sports...not a reflection of anything but the team and its History

I guess you can say I pay attention to diversity....but I pay closer attention to intent

Every Native American I knew in the Southwest...were Redskins..Raiders..and Cardinals fans....mostly Redskins, though

Culzie..when the Redskins play the Cardinals...make the trip to the game....count logos...write that story

Leave the Blackhawk alone...tomahawks and all...it's a tribute...

and Roman...I love Cleveland's logo...always had an Indians Cap..used to love Baltimore's (big smiley bird) too..what?..the bird get pis..t off? Baltimore ruined their hats...why should Cleveland?

And another thing....these logos...someone had to draw it...what was the artist's intent?

now... there's a pee stick pregnancy test that spells out "pregnant?"...what?..the plus and minus sign get pi..t?..why yes they did!!..ok..that's understandable...

I never saw a Native American til I moved to AZ...so maybe..if there are 25,000 Native Americans in the Chicago area...Awareness and Commitment to the American Indian isn't such a bad thing

Market it right...and get a Native American fan base...I'll bet you'll see 'em wearing the Jersey with pride....Cuz that's what it's all about, right?

I liked the article....proceeds should go to the appropriate places....but the angle of the story was like our basketball team.....BS

I disagree with the tone of the article. Nothing said should be perceived as an insult. Look to the wealthy Native American Casinos before you start shaking down the Blackhawks. I am not sympathetic to their complaints.

OK, Roman ... I'll answer your 2 questions

#1) I mistyped and wrote "insensitive" and I meant to say "sensitive" in my first paragraph. So, in reference to my point that Mr. Podlasek "grow up", I was referring to his being too sensitive when it comes to something that is clearly not a derogatory slogan. And yes, he and his organization do some fine work, FACT --- it doesn't change my feeling on his whining statements.

#2) Perhaps, I wrote inaccurately. I thought a "charitable organization" IS one that "does charity work". If I said it incorrectly, I apologize. I meant it how you described it.

Don't forget Carol's stance on Pat Tillman...

Chicago Sun Times ^ | July 13, 2004 | CAROL SLEZAK

"A few things I need to get off my mind: Tom Cruise will present a tribute to Pat Tillman during the ESPY Awards.

You remember Tillman, who quit the NFL to join the Army Rangers and was killed in Afghanistan earlier this year. You remember Cruise, who in lieu of a box-office hit will happily reach millions of homes via ESPN. Words I expect Cruise to use during the Tillman tribute: hero, courage, warrior. Sentiments I don't expect Cruise to express during the Tillman tribute: unjust war, his poor widow, what was he thinking? Remind me not to watch."

Since everyone seems to have taken care of the "what Savard really meant was..." comments, I'll go the next logical step. It is nearly impossible for me to keep my head from exploding every time Native Americans try to pull this nonsense. From the Atlanta Braves, to the Cleveland Indians, to Chief Illiniwick, to the Washington Redskins, the names have always been used as an homage to the best traditions of these Natives, and has never been meant with even the slightest negativity in mind. No one can argue with this absolute. Apparently, the Native Americans would prefer to have the "issue" to gripe about, rather than have the reverence of the names themselves.

Nobody seems to know that the Blackhawks aren't even named after an Indian Cheif or an Indian tribe. The name was chosen by Major McLaughlin, who purchased a team called the Portland Rosebuds. He knew that name wouldn't work in a tough town like Chicago, so he changed the name to Blackhawks in honor of the field gun battalion he commanded in WWI. Do you want to discredit the honor and the memory of a WWI hero and the men from his battalion? I think Carol should have checked her facts before starting this ball rolling down hill. If you don't believe me, plese look on amazon.com for a book released in 1986 call "The Chicago Blackhawks - A 60 Year History, by Gerald L. Pfeiffer.

let's stop with all this political correctness,

but if we don't,

THEN

the ncaa headquarters cannot be allowed to remain in. . .

INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA

Savard didn't make the Blackhawks trademark, it's just written on his paychecks. If they were the Chicago Ferraris, Savard would've said, "Commit to the Real Leather Interior". We're creative enough as a people to replace these racially stereotypical symbols with something more adjusted to modern sensitivities; so let's get started.

Roman Modrowski:

"At least the Blackhawks don't have some kid in a war paint skating around the rink."

This would be a worst-case scenario for sure.

Walter Brzeski:

"Don't forget Carol's stance on Pat Tillman...'Sentiments I don't expect Cruise to express during the Tillman tribute: unjust war, his poor widow, what was he thinking?'"

I guess she won't be able to beat John McCain on super tuesday.

Roman responds:

"If you're going to be insulting, at least be somewhat clever about it. Perhaps that's too much to ask with you. Captain Stupid? Witty."

Calling someone Captain Stupid while posting anonymously on the internet really speaks to the essence of blogging culture.

Pete:

"...the responsibility of this little controversy is clearly on Carol Slezak and her editor."

Carol Slezak was not the only one who reported his comments. Savard didn't make any effort to hide his words.

"I know it's a slow sports news period.."

Every time a sports writer talks about something that actually matters, instead of oggling over teenage boys in shorts, people say that it's a "slow news period".

"The Sun-Times may have sold some more papers today, but, with writing like this, I'm doubtful that it reverses its current downward spiral."

People still believe that the Sun Times is the only paper in America that's struggling. People need the rock those books.

tristan:

"Carol Slezak and Joe Podlasek should take note and find Savard's words encouraging and look at themselves and how they can better commit to their own endeavors and stop this weak attempt at obtaining selfish headlines."

So are Carol Slezak and Joe Bodlasek the new axis of evil? How can a headline be selfish, stingy: Is this a headline that won't share it's chocolate cookies with the other headlines? I ronically, in publishing this article, both Slezak and Bodlasek have only improved their commitments to their endeavors: Carol Slezak writes columns and Joe Bodlasek supports Native American issues.

Tom the Greek:

" There are a lot more important things to worry about in this world than people getting their feelings hurt because of a LOGO... a sports team, a quote by a frustrated coach, etc. GET OVER IT. The injustices against the native american people happened 500 years ago. There are immigrants in this country that prospered despite civil wars, communism, genocide, poverty, junta, and the list goes on. These people came to this country and prospered, not living off the injustices of their ancestors."

When you take this same recycled speech that is used to poison the debate on reparations for people of African descent and re-hash it on Native Americans, it becomes weak and ineffective.
This statement has nothing to do in the situation and doesnt mean anything. For every Sudanese man who became rich, there are many more who are starving.

There are people who were poor in America and became successful elsewhere.

In the context of history 500 years is like last week, but you'll never see an American sports team entitled The Greek Traitors, or the Slanty Eyes, or The Zionists, or The Cockroaches; because these teams know that they would be sued immediately. What is this nonsense about "people came to this country and prospered"? Most of them came for rich families in their own countries and thus had an advantage over the native poor.

Black Americans and Native Americans live off their wits and the love of their respective communities- You can't feed yourself with the "injustices" of the past.

If other ethnicities don't demand respect for their heritage, they should.

If you are liberal then I guess it takes one voice to cry "offensive" to enact change. If you are conservative it takes a majority.

Just imagine how screwed up the world would be if the scientific community gave such power to a lone voice. To reach the most rational & sensible approach to anything you need a majority consensus.

I don't see how one lone voice should represent all descendants linked to chief Black Hawk. I believe the team & the fans look upon the chief with both honor & reverance. Those of us you who are religious might even include his spirit in our prayers & feel the need to apologize for his plight. I see nothing offensive in a team or coach seeking to honor a man for his life's accomplishment. To refer to this man as "the Indian" is to honor his American Indian heritage.

That being said, McDonough is no fool. The man just extended an invitation to the Hawks to be supporters of the American Indian Center in Chicago. Such an act would not go unnoticed & probably make for a national story. It would no doubt earn the Hawk's this man's respect. That might go as far as to enact a display honoring Black Hawk, his plight, & his accomplishments at the UC itself.

The blessing of the Blackhawk name & chief logo by a prominent man associated with the American Indian Center in Chicago? Priceless.

I agree that both Cleveland & Washington should change their names. There is no heritage behind either usage & the teams have never attempted to connect with one. You can draw no other conclusion but that the names were chosen solely to instill fear. It's equivalent to calling them the Cleveland Nazi's & Washington Redcoats.

Roman responds: That first graph is beneath you, and it doesn't even make any sense.

Hawks fan:

"He knew that name wouldn't work in a tough town like Chicago, so he changed the name to Blackhawks in honor of the field gun battalion he commanded in WWI."

"I think Carol should have checked her facts before starting this ball rolling down hill."

Carol Slezak did not invent "Commit to the Indian", she was quoting coach Savard, so there were no facts to check. Savard brought up Native Americans, so the results are on him. I know that it's hard for some to believe, but what Carol did was called proper journalism.

The white man was wrong this time.

My God... oops! Did I offend any religious believers out there?

Why is it ok to have one mascot after another depicting white guys (Fighting Irish, Cowboys, Boilermakers, Trojans, Spartans, Celtics, Minutemen, Patriots, Yankees, Pirates, Buccaneers, Vikings) but this is bigotry?

Is it better to just get rid of every reference of the Native Americans and pretend that they never existed in the first place?
Start renaming halve of the states and thousands of towns and cities while you are at it just to make sure that someone with nothing better to whine about is not going to get their panties all in a bunch.

I don't find the Black Hawk offensive because it names a specific type of native American warrior> However, the Cleveland Indian>>>with it's large nosed comicly red faced man is another story! But why stop there? how would you like for a school to name themselves after your nationality's perceived inability to hold liquor without fighting?

Enter "Notre Dame"............"The fighting Irish!"

Carol Slezak has to relax. As well as all of you do gooding, tree huggers. Dennis Savard was just firing up his young players, to get them to play up to their abilities. Remember kids, Savvy is Canadian, sometimes he says things that sound bad, but in reality is not. Read between the lines! It's like he was saying 'Commit to the Cub, or Commit to the Sox' Stop being so overly sensitive. Next, Jessie Jackson will be out there, demanding reparations to the American Blackhawk tribe, because he has never met a camara he didn't love......

Commit to the Chief would probably be better.

I know at times I have trouble distinguishing between what's considered newsworthy and what's not, but this really seems like much ado about nothing, folks. Oh, sorry - I mean humans. If there were anything remotely positive to write about any Chicago sports team, this would NOT be news. All caps used for emphasis, not insanity. Also, Carol Slezak has a tendency to make mountains out of molehills, so let's consider the source.

Obviously, we all know Savard was talking about the logo on the swaeter, but why all of this critiscism about racism? You actually believe Savvy was being racist about the comment? Roman, I understand the article was published because of the slogan issue, etc. but what I do want to know is why the Native Americans think the Hawks were bashing them? It just doesn't add up to me. It kind of seems like they are talking without thinking this through. Theres just no point behind the complaining really.

I am searching myself to see if I can come up with an example to get people to see themselves in a mirror. If you have ethnic friends or family members - try to imagine if it was one of them. I just cannot seem to find the words to bring it home.

It seems most would just rather see hurting people pretty much just shut up and take it right? Nobody is suggesting that the Hawks fire Savard or cancel one single Hockey game. Folks are simply asking why do we have to have a Native American as the logo or mascot? There is a very disgusted and disappointed feeling I have right now. I think the feeling is shame or disgrace. Of people who have no remorse, or even respect for the dead. Are we that petty that our FUN has to be at the expense and pain of other humans???? Folks who only want to go in a corner and mind their own business. Like a bunch of bullies. Disgusting.

Joe,
Sounds like the same sad sack noise that caused the NCAA to make the University of Illinois get rid of the Chief.
What is offensive about asking fans to supporting your team? I think all Irish people should then cause an uproar because the sterotype implied by the fighting irish logo. Do you hear any whinning from them? No
Time for Joe to man up and and not be so thin skinned.
He is offended by "Commit to the Indian"?Well I am offended that he wasted my time writing this response to his nonsense.

It's an issue like this that makes me wish that Columbus had found some other new world. While Rome burns, we debate an issue that probably has no right or wrong answer -- just a lot of grey. It gets a lot of people riled up, but at the end of the day, Ms. Slezak's column will be wrapping some dead fish on its way to the garbage can.

If this is really an issue that she is "close" to rather than an attempt at selling newspapers, then let's see an ongoing series of commentary about what sports teams should be doing -- the pros, the cons, the various sides of the issue, including a fairly indepth, on-site report of one or more Indian reservations, the way of life that exists there, etc., etc.

I believe it would be an eye-opening experience and the only way to bring an objective point of view to this issue.

Otherwise, it was a "one and done." And if that's the case, then my question is why bring it up in the first place?

I have been a Blackhawk fan for 40 years. Use the Blackhawk logo to teach children the strength and values of a part of our society that was mistreated. Eliminating the logo will not correct mistakes of the past but the logo could help make a better future.

Athletes are overpaid. I say take Savvy's comments one step further. Commit to the community. I want a team of players that play for not only the sweater but also the city and fans. Each professional sports team ought to have to pick one charity annually and 1% of each players salary that years goes to that local charity.

Same for newspapers. How many of the Sun Times sports columnists have actually spent the majority of their lives in this city? 1% of their salaries as well. Commit to the Community.

Please, can we all stop being offended by EVERYTHING? The Hawks might well consider supporting the centers sports or food programs, it sounds like they do good work. But that slogan - if it was used - in no way diminishes American Indians or anyone else.

If you are looking for an excuse to be offended, you can ALWAYS find one. I know. I am a minority, and my daddy taught us we are all AMERICANS first, and whatever minority SECOND.

Carol Slezak writing, yet another, story about political correctness? No way!

Does any other supposed sportswriter write about sports less than she does? After reading some the few articles she has written that actually are about sports, I can totaly understand why you want her to stick to other things. But, how about moving her BS to another part of the paper, maybe to the classifieds or next to the drivel written by Esther Cepeda.

I wish the most of you could see what The American Indian Center does for all people. Go there visit one day and your attitude will surely change My husband plays Santa there every Christmas he makes sure he spends time with every child there of all race and creed We have usually 600 children. Its not about begging The Chicago Blackhawks Its about making them aware that what they say can be hurtful to our people. Not all tribes have casinos Some tribes all they have to support there people is a casino. Live on a reservation learn about what you are saying. So, please Come visit our Center before you say we are begging I am sure you will understand where our Director is coming from.

Next up: A Sun-Times PC piece concerning The Simpsons and Family Guy for their unfair, negative portrayals of fat, white guys. Where is the outrage for those injustices? Where is the outrage?!?!

One more thing, if there was ever a team named the Fightin' Whities, I'd buy that jersey.

Being a Black man, I'm used to the indifference of White America in their portrayals of other ethnic groups. Case in point: Arthur Blank stereotyping Michael Vick as someone that eats fried chicken and Tony Kornheiser and the rest of America watching MNF just waiving it off. Sure, I was disgusted by it but the rest of America probably didn't notice. We are conditioned to ignore and accept things that are commonly stated and believed. Who am I to say to a Native American that they shouldn't be offended by unflattering depictions of their culture? Who are any of us to determine another person's level of offense? And please stop using casinoes to justify your weak arguments. What in the hell do casinoes have to do with the American Indian taking offense to a team logo? So because Tiger Woods is filthy rich does that give someone the right to call for him to be lynched? Maybe it wasn't her intent but she should have thought about that before she made the article and subsequent cover pic. Because the Rutgers girls don't have the same grade of hair as a caucasian, does that give someone like Imus the right to call them "nappy headed"? Here's a hypothethical. Because MJ and Bob Johnson own a basketball team, do any of you think they shouldn't be offended if someone called them the "N" word? I can guarantee that some of you were saying that it was no big deal that Imus and Kelly Tilghman were fired for their comments. I say, who are any of us to determine how another group is affected by things that are said and stereotypes that are added to their culture. What if I called all white men "blue eyed devils" or white women "snow bunnies". I have more respect for the caucasian culture than that. Please attempt to reciprocate and stop attempting to tell other groups what's "okay". Thanks for the soap box Roman.

Roman sez: "Are we going overboard with political correctness? I think so ..."

I know so.

I don't know where it is written in our constitution that being a member of any particular ethnic or religious group entitles you to decide for others how they will think and speak about you, while also deciding which, if any, terms or symbols are allowable when referencing your particular group.

I'm sick of all this whining, hand wringing, PC crap.

I'm Italian, and this is America, and if you feel like calling me a Dago, go right ahead. I'll live. The last time I checked this was still a free country.

In fact, the only thing that bothers me at all about my heritage is sharing it with Jay Mariotti. Sorta makes me wish I was an Indian; or should I say Native American?

"One more thing, if there was ever a team named the Fightin' Whities, I'd buy that jersey."

There was...maybe 10 years ago, there was some story about a group who thought it might be clever to see how white people would feel about being nicknamed, hence they came up with this name.
Someone decided to create a jersey and market it. It was wildly successful. I'm sure you can find it online...

I did not think Savard was being racist with his comment. That said, the fact that Chicago has a slain war hero's warpaint as their mascot is as insulting as it gets. The fact that other teams have Indian facepaint is insulting as well.

What if some Group in Canada called themselves the Pat Tillman's, and made a mockery of his likeness? Or how about if China or Cuba or one of of the countries we are 'conflicting' with has the idea?

The bashing is not for Savard, I do not know the man, so I cannot comment on him, the bashing if for the mascot.

In fact, Sally's post said really all I could say.

But I'm me, so I have to keep going...

It actually hurt me, not his comments, and not these posters. What hurt me is the fact that in my mother's family, and my father's family, there are a lot of Native American born people as relatives including my direct ancestors. I have about as much Native American blood in me as I do African American, and I do not even know the history to my Native American side.

I call myself an educated man, and I do not even know myself. I am going to find my history as a Native American as well, and commit to my family, my tribe, and my people.

I did not comment because all I would've said was foolishness, which is about 98% of what is on this thread now. It has never stopped me before, and it probably will not stop me later, but this time, this is my history.

I think the biggest offender that I am mad at is not Savard, not one of these posters, but it is me, I have denied myself the truth for so long. Thank you C. Slezak, thank you for awakening the final part of me that has been dormant for almost 40 years, the part I was afraid to face, the Indian in me.

First of all I'd like to know where waukegan man got the perceptiom from the "Leprechan" it has anything to do with alcohol. Now his comment I find offensive. Secondly I lived for four years just 12 miles from the Tucarora reservation in western New York and spent alot of money on that reservation because gas was on the average 15 cents a gallon cheaper, major tobacco brands were as much as 30% cheaper because no Federal taxes on the reservation and ontop of all this many of the reservation's own brands used an Indian Head as their logo. Infact the largest complex on the reservation, which included a gas station, grocery store, tabaco shop and general mercandise (of which approximately 50% was native american made) used an Indian Head as it's logo. Personally if I were native american the Cleveland logo would offend me but a logo depicting a proud native american would not.
Back to the "leprechan". Being part Irish the logo represents to me part of Irish folk lore; the mythical fiesty little leprechan fighting to keep the secret of the location of his "pot-o-gold" which explains the gold helmets and the golden dome. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with alcohl. Waukegan man please tell us your ethnic background so we can stereotype you.

Can we pleeeeeeeze talk about sports now?

Roman responds: Ok, give us a topic Miss B. I'm thinking of having guest bloggers. One of you guys starts the thread and then I post the comments. But you won't be able to respond right away. Let me think about it.
I'm considering starting an Eli vs. Rex thread. Would that be ok with you Jules?

Ernest - I read your post and probably agree with most of it. I must ask...were you serious when mentioning the "caucasian culture"? That's either an incredibly ignorant statement or an innocent mistake (kind of like the Kelly Tilghman statement)...

One more thing, if there was ever a team named the Fightin' Whities, I'd buy that jersey.

Posted by: Max Power | January 29, 2008 10:56 PM

Max would you buy it if you were once a PROUD and PEACEFUL race of people. And then a race of blue people decended upon you and killed everyone until there were a handfull of you left. Then hearded your nation on the worse piece of land on the continent. Decades pass and your people NEVER recover, but the blue people thrive and envent games for their amusement and put a picture of WHITEY on the shirt and call the team "Fighting Whitey". Max tell me if you would buy that shirt then? If you would, it would make no human sense. To understand the pain, you have to put it in its fullest perspective.

Earnest, good post. That is why I sent that poem. We have been smiling and praying our way through hell.

Call me Crazy or whatever ...insane....but my occasional use of "ALL CAPS STYLE" is actually because when I write up REAL ESTATE contracts in ZIPFORMS, I use ALL CAPS. So, sometimes I dont take it off CAPS LOCK and I just end up typing....I will usually type a sentance or two before I realize that I am still CAPS LOCKED. SO.....therefore...i can either go back and delete what I wrote...or just say F IT. Roman can deal with it.

SO F IT

Hey...I think Ricky did a fine job too. But....I just sensed you were gettting bogged down with our relentless pressure to post our borderline insanity almost instantaneously.....I mean no dissrespect of young Scoop jones. He is a great writer and very funny...and has tremendous insight into the chicago sports world. Very informatative too. Wordy Yes, but were just use to your 1 sentance approach i guess.

Roman responds: Is "one sentence" a euphemism for "lazy"?

OK...Chief Wahoo...is for sure the most offesnive LOGO...and the Redskins is the most offensive TEAM NAME.

Hey Ernest? Did it upset you when ESPNS' Dana Jacobsen went on her ANTI JESUS rant the other day? She only got a one week suspension. I bet if she made an anti-muslim or jewish comment she woulda been strung up.

It actually appears that the most made fun of catagory....that goes completely unnoticed is the attack and villification of White Christian Males in this country.

NOBODY EVEN BATS AN EYELASH.

You can say that well...old white christians are the power elite and deserve it, but I really dont think thats who gets made fun of, I think it is the beer bellied, father of 3, pee wee football coach, 6 pack drinking, lawn mowing, weekend bowler, blue collar Rural Christian Male that gets lambasted the most.

Im not talking about racisim or being held back...im just talking about straight up UN PC ism...

Maybe we should just get rid of all the nicknames, just think of how all the Pirates must feel, and how about all of the Yankees in this country we should all feel insulted. I am so tired of hearing all the politically correct B.S. that the minority in this country whine about. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, give it a rest, there are a lot of schools in this area with Native American names including the town I live in. Here in Minooka we look at it as a proud name with a great history. What if every team gave up the nicknames would the Native Americans then scream discrimination about being forgotten.

Maybe Savard should have said "Commit to the Blackhawks", that might have sounded better.. But really I think the Chicago Blackhawks logo was always the most respectable towards Native Americans. It is laughable to talk about this logo when you still have the Redskins and the Cleveland Indians logos in use.

Judging by these comments it seems ND bashing is 2nd only to White Sox bashing at this site. Do you think Mariotti has something to do with that? Should I be offended?

Mr. Frazier, you never should have brought up the N word. Famous blacks felt the need to popularize it again & yet confine it's usage to blacks or famous white's they know. Imus was wrong to say what he did but the fact is he didn't say anything that has been popularized by black rap artists.

Did the people who felt the need to popularize the N word again ever stop to think how the white community feels about that? Do you think they aren't offended by this?

The success of casino's on American Indian reservations is a valid point because they not only market the heritage but also the stereo-type! If you haven't been to one, check it out for yourself. It's true these tribes may not represent the majority consensus of the Amer Ind population but it's also true they are the most influential group in that population right now & that
their actions & their words carry greater weight than Slezak's spokesman.

Roman, I apologize for the skinhead reference to Cleveland. I had a personal experience there involving skinheads with swazie tatoos & it left an impression. My point was they picked Indians for their team name because it sounded tough & instilled fear. I once say Lake Erie on fire so the Cleveland Flames could work for them. You have to agree Redcoats for Washington was on par.

Please tell Slezak if she wants to be an investigative reporter she needs to get BOTH sides of the story. That does not mean the Blackhawks vs the AIC. That means calling up an owner of Amer Ind reservation casino & get their opinion as well. The people I know in that business would jump at the chance of doing cross-promotion with the Chicago Blackhawks.

Whatever, Keith. I'll shut-up if it spares us from another lame, PC driven poem.

Last time I checked...an Indian and Blackhawk mean pretty much the same thing..No?

Shame on us for ever using the words Indian or Blackhawk!

I'm sick of being referred to as "white". Call me Anglo-American from now on.

Give me a break.

I'm ignoring the specific comment by Savard in order to make my own comment on Native mascots in general.

These mascots enhance the idea of Natives as different. Even if they are meant to "honor" Native peoples, they only serve to re-enforce our status as different from the rest of you. (There's something about a road to someplace paved with good intentions...)

These mascots don't help raise Native kids' self-esteem - they encourage the dominant culture to hold us separate from itself.

Given the outrageously high incidences of suicide on reservations, it would seem that all caring sports moms and dads would want to save Native parents from that kind of anguish. But then again, we're different, all mystical warriors and stuff, how can "mainstream" moms and dads relate? Besides, we're all stinking rich from casinos, (*sarcasm- I and many other Natives don't get any per cap) why should any of you care about us outside of the entertainment value we provide you?

Personally, I'm offended by all of the stereotypical depictions of Natives in logos. And yes, I am Native.

The address below will take you to an article on Native kids and suicide.
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/38/11/28-a

A response to an SI article on mascots.
http://www.aistm.org/fr.2002.of.polls.htm

If you read both all the way through and still support the use of us as your minstrel show players, at least we'll all know where everyone really stands.

Sorry I couldn't give my okay earlier Roman (was at yoga class - sorry boys), but yes, the Eli vs. Rex thread is a fabulous idea. It incorporates timeliness with a local angle. Nice job. I also LOVE the guest blogger idea. Can I be first please, pretty please with sugar on top? I'll give you a free yoga lesson. But if you aren't taking bribes, just pick me first anyway!

Sorry I couldn't give my okay earlier Roman (was at yoga class - sorry boys), but yes, the Eli vs. Rex thread is a fabulous idea. It incorporates timeliness with a local angle. Nice job. I also LOVE the guest blogger idea. Can I be first please, pretty please with sugar on top? I'll give you a free yoga lesson. But if you aren't taking bribes, just pick me first anyway!

Roman responds: No bribes? I work in Chicago.

Judging by the volumn of comments being posted, Savard and Slezak seem to have fired up the fans, at least. Savard in a positive way as he intended and Slezak in a negative way, as usual for her.

Savard simply meant to commit to the pride that wearing the Blackhawk jersey represents. If commit to the Indian is offensive then don't have the team name and jersey honor an Indian. I say lets elimanate all Indian names, teams, streets, cities and casinos. In other countries they call it ethnic cleansing, we just call it PC run amok. Having a team(or street, city, arena) named in your honor is just that, an honor. Nobody ever complains except for so-called minorities. Maybe we should get rid of all the Martin Luther King drives too, along with the holiday. The Indians are acting just like the Muslims around the world, as if everything about them is "sacred" an any use of any muslim term or item is "sacrilege" and cause for rioting, burning, rock and bomb throwing.

Slezak is a daily example of why women have no place in the men's sports world. Virtually every article she writes is from a victims perspective, just like the typical feminazi working for N.O.W. As the "51% minority" she must walk thru life with a big chip on her shoulder feeling that the world isn't fair and out to get her. She belongs in the life stlye section of the paper, not the real world of competitive sports.

By the way are not both Chicago, and Illinois indians words, maybe we should stop using those names too. My Family would be more than willing to donate our family name to either the city or state. We would be honored.

Does this mean that my address is going to change...afterall, I live on Milwaukee Ave. in Gurnee, Illinois. And what about the old Palwaukee airport...gasp...it actually combines 2 Native American tribes' names. I am so glad this is the most important issue Carol could come up with yesterday. I, for one, have never heard of this organization before and in honor of my beloved Blackhawks, I will be making a donation. This guy ought to be thanking Savvy for putting him (& his organization) on the proverbial map.

Speaking against a bunch of people is very difficult. Nobody likes being "typed". We all want to get along and fit in and be accepted. But there comes a time when you have to think and respond in protest. That is the only way you get "CHANGE". And I know there are a LOT more individuals out there who agree with me, but they fear the backlash. This is AMERICA, and noone should have to be afraid to speak up or against anything.

Using Indian images is wrong. Its equivalent to Germans skating around with swastikas and a little Jew on their jerseys. Tasteless, immoral and a constant reminder of genocide. And its got nothing to do with Savy's comments. His comments are only a reminder that an Indian is on the jersey. Now you can jump to ignorant statements like "lets change the name of the city" all you want, but the truth is right there. Have some compassion, mercy and dignity.

After reading these many posts, I am going to post some questions and observations:

American Indian or Native American? Both came from others, first a guy lost crossing and ocean and then a government designation, so use whatever you wish because both don't quite get there.

If the Blackhawks were named after a battalion, for whom was the battalion named?

Why is it such a big deal to change team names if they don't have any significance to anyone...as in why don't Indians get over it? So get over it and change the name.

The person speaking the words is responsible for those words. He didn't say commit to the Blackhawk, he said "commit to the Indian" Indians didn't appreciate the statement and said so. That would be their right to do so, no?

American Indians get those "freebies" because they traded land to the United States government in exchange for things, which includes health care. American Indian Nations are just that, sovereign Nations who entered into treaties with the United States as 'equals' These things are mentioned in the legal documents of the U.S.A. So those things aren't 'free' after all, they are the payment "OWED" them for the land they gave up.

If you want to determine whether a mascot is racist, try changing the mascot to another ethnicity (African-American, Mexican, etc.) Does it work or would those people be upset? If it doesn't work well and you wouldn't use it, why is it okay to continue to use an American Indian? It is time for the country to move away from stereotypes. By using American Indians as mascots you are de-humanizing a people. That is something oppressive governments use to justify their actions. It is easier to do inhumane things if you aren't doing it to a person. Think about that and decide if that's what you want to do, because that is exactly how many Indians feel when they see a mascot.

Finally, the hockey team is not a charitable organization. They are in business to make money for the owners and stockholders. The Chicago American Indian center is a charitable organization and maintains monies only to continue their work. Which is pretty impressive if you've ever checked them out.

Roman sez: "Roman responds: No bribes? I work in Chicago."

That's right Roman!

"Ubi est mia" is Chicago's official slogan, and if we ever start printing our own money, it'll be on the back of the three dollar bill.

Max Power sez: "Carol Slezak writing, yet another, story about political correctness? No way!

Does any other supposed sportswriter write about sports less than she does?"

*raising hand*

Jay Mariotti holds the record for spilling alligator tears over just about anything and everything other than what actually happens on the field of play.

This jerk can make a mountain out of a golf ball on a moment's notice.

Anonymous:

"Carol Slezak did not invent "Commit to the Indian", she was quoting coach Savard, so there were no facts to check. Savard brought up Native Americans, so the results are on him. I know that it's hard for some to believe, but what Carol did was called proper journalism.

The white man was wrong this time."

I was "in the heat of the moment" and I forgot to sign my post. This one is me.

Juan:

"Imus was wrong to say what he did but the fact is he didn't say anything that has[n't] been popularized by black rap artists."

And made profitable by sub-urban white males.

"Please tell Slezak..."

I'm pretty sure that she knows how to read.

BigWay:

"Slezak is a daily example of why women have no place in the men's sports world. Virtually every article she writes is from a victims perspective..."

Comments like this are why we need more female sports writers.

"Maybe we should get rid of all the Martin Luther King drives too, along with the holiday."

"Martin Luther King" Drive is good: "Cotton-Picken" drive is bad; "Sambo" drive is bad; "Jiggaboo" drive is bad. Got it?

There's no bad intent... yet people are offended anyway?...those are the people we can do without...and I'm not kidding even a little bit right this second

Keith sez: "It seems most would just rather see hurting people pretty much just shut up and take it right? Nobody is suggesting that the Hawks fire Savard or cancel one single Hockey game. Folks are simply asking why do we have to have a Native American as the logo or mascot?"

Let's take this a step further Kieth.

Why do we allow Vikings, and Pirates?

Do you think they have no feelings?

What about Giants? How would you feel if you were 7' 6" and the rest of us dwarfs made fun of you?

And tell me Keith ... do you really believe animals have no feelings, or do you think that they're just too stupid to know that they're being mocked and abused.?

I'm willing to bet you a year's worth of pet food that Lions, Tiger, Bears, Panthers, Sea Hawks, and even extinct Raptors, don't appreciate the way they're portrayed as cartoon characters on sports team jerseys, and would gladly sue for reparations if they could find an attorney that understood their language.

But let's not stop there. What about aliens from outer space?

Don't you think that their feelings should also be taken into consideration? We need to make a rule that sundry species from Mars and Uranus should never be used as team mascots, lest we offend their sensibilities.

Don't you agree?

And what about plants???????????????????

Mr. Frazier, you never should have brought up the N word. Famous blacks felt the need to popularize it again & yet confine it's usage to blacks or famous white's they know. Imus was wrong to say what he did but the fact is he didn't say anything that has been popularized by black rap artists.

Did the people who felt the need to popularize the N word again ever stop to think how the white community feels about that? Do you think they aren't offended by this?
.......................................................

As I stated in my post, it really doesn't matter whether whites are offended by the N word. Those that use it in an offensive manner are not referring to them. It isn't any of their place to tell me when I should be offended by any slight both real or imagined. And please stop using the lame ass statement (and I paraphrase the Bill O'Reilly watchers that obviously populate this blog)" it's the rappers fault that the N word is now popular". No, it's the suburban white kid that has made the N word prevalent in mainstream America through rap music. They are the largest group of rap music consumers. Rap is less than 40 years old. The N word is centuries old.

Ernest - I read your post and probably agree with most of it. I must ask...were you serious when mentioning the "caucasian culture"? That's either an incredibly ignorant statement or an innocent mistake (kind of like the Kelly Tilghman statement)...

Posted by: Tommy | January 30, 2008 07:27 AM

I just couldn't think of a proper way to frame my thoughts. I would never disrespect the white race by using ignorant terms to refer to them. I was using that statement for effect and post-related context.
............................................................

Hey Ernest? Did it upset you when ESPNS' Dana Jacobsen went on her ANTI JESUS rant the other day? She only got a one week suspension. I bet if she made an anti-muslim or jewish comment she woulda been strung up.

It actually appears that the most made fun of catagory....that goes completely unnoticed is the attack and villification of White Christian Males in this country.
Posted by: bculz | January 30, 2008 09:25 AM

I always find it interesting when people go on an all out assault of White Christians. It always seems that someone is checking in their closet for some hidden skeletons. I guess the Catholic Church, though mostly unrelated in structure and discipline, has a lot to do with this. The largely ignorant sector of America group most White Christian preachers with the stereotypical White Catholic priest. Do I need to go into the sordid history of those guys? It's fair to say however, that Jews, Blacks and Christians are easily the most accepting of slights and disrespect in recent American memory. However, the Native Americans are easily the most openly abused, disrespected and disenfranchised group in recorded history. At some point, we must stop allowing others to disrespect us with stereotypes. The problem is that they are so ingrained in mainstream America conscienceness that even the most watchful of us are blind and deaf to them.

There's no bad intent... yet people are offended anyway?...those are the people we can do without...and I'm not kidding even a little bit right this second

Posted by: Hitman | January 30, 2008 05:24 PM

Hitman, does there have to be INTENT in order for something to be wrong? Does lack of intent negate pain or offense?

Ernest, MOST of those questions posed to you were bait. They are shifting the subject from the Native American plight. Folks are trying to turn this into "the black man complaining again". And if you notice, THEY pounce on it - even though the Indian's plight correlates with what has happened with blacks and jews and is quite relavant.

They have made up in their hearts, that anything a black person "complains" about is justification for how they feel. We are painted as lazy and ungrateful people who have as fair an advantage as anyone else. They feel absolute no connection or sorrow for slavery and have given themselves a proverbial "mulligan" on the whole issue. They pretty much feel that the country is the way it is because white people as a whole are thrifty bright go-getters who like cream have risen to the top. They believe we all started on equal ground and the only thing really wrong with ANY minority is simply they have to get over themselves and go get the american dream. Any talk about the subject of BLACKS inparticular is like an anesthetic for any racist guilt they have whatsoever. Since the world has Tiger, MJ, and Oprah - slavery and racism does NOT exist. So Earnestly speaking - don't waste your time with a response.

The issue is why do the Blackhawks have to have a INDIAN plastered on the front. Savvy didn't have any other recourse but to refer to that repugnant logo. Hey Savy, ask them to add a hood and a KKK to the outfit.

Some posters have mentioned that Savard is a Canadian, but you should note that he is a French Canadian and his heritage has a direct influence on how he communicated to his players. Growing up in Pointe Gatineau, Savard was a french Canadian, a population of some 7 million tucked away in a corner of North America surrounded by a predominantly english speaking populace. He was also a fan of the Canadiens. The team was named "Canadiens" after the french canadian settlers in Quebec who are known as "Canadien" as opposed to the "Canadian" that refer to all Canadians.

His support of the team and their logo and other french nicknames for the team which include Les Canadiens, Le Bleu-Blanc-Rouge (The Red, White, and Blue), La Sainte-Flanelle (Sainted Satin), Le Tricolore (The Tri-color), Les Glorieux (THe Glorious ones), Les Habitants (The habitants, based on the french speaking inhabitants of Quebec) and Le Grand Club (The big club). English speakers generally refer to the club as the Habs or the Flying Frenchmen.

Some of these nicknames convey the spirit of the team plating for the pride of the club, but also has a nationalistic bent of playing for the heritage of the french Canadia(e)ns. I can understand Denis' reference to "Commit to the Indian" based on his growing up in Quebec and his heritage.

Perhaps he should have said "Commit to the Inuit", but his sentiment, respect for the people on whom the team is named, are only spoken with pride and excellence in mind.

KLS...well.. there has to be intent to get all of these reactions to a subject such as this..so yes

people that are easily offended should pick up a copy of the 4 agreements....it might help

I was just reminiscing about how, one day, all the guns in this land stood up and said " we are not going to be mis-represented by the NBA." I was dumbfounded at their loyalty and dedication to their partners in crime. After very little resistance, their wish was granted. We got wizards instead. If only Indians had the same clout and political pull of guns, then the only thing left we could associate them with is the clean,pristine,prestigous image of Casinos. I will start the NIA (National Indain Association), and get right on it. I don't think Mr. Heston is available though.

OK Romo...time to shut this down...we now, once again, have Keith's over the top, overly generalized, "white people are evil" diatribe.

THEY, THEY, THEY....sweet merciful crap

Frazier....good response...except..you forgot to address Dana Jacobsons anti jesus rant...

its funny...as I sit in WhatCom county in Washington State today and I read the local sports page, almost EVERY SINGLE HS in Seattle and every town around here is named after a Native American Tribe...

What a head trip this issue is...

I mean...the biggest irony is that the Word INDIANS itself was a mistake made by Christopher Columbus who thought he discovered a new route to India...

So...now...flash forward.......Native Americans....(who by the way...were fighting and killing and obliterating EACH OTHER loooooooooooooooooong before the white man got here. (not counting lief erikson or Eric the Red or any of the first century Viking Explorers....)

Its so silly..

Why dont we call Cleveland the "Christopher Columbus Blunders"?

Whoever brought up Indiana...that is Genius....i mean...how crazy..

Think about it....at least 2/3rds of the states in our Union are named after Tribes..Illinois, Wisconsin..etc.

Funny joke...

Two Braves are standing with two pilgrums....and they are shaking hands....but the Pilgrems thought bubble says....

-(We will give these guys Alcohol and we will take their country)

.....and the Braves thought bubble says....

-(Lets give them Gambling and we will take it back).

FUNNY HUH?

Jason - Of course I WASNT TALKING ABOUT YOOOOOUUU. You would never be guilty. You are ALWAYS white, i mean RIGHT...RIGHT!! RIGHT!!! And of course - since YOOUU have decided - NOOOOW is the time to "shut it down Roman".

Keith my man...as I've said before, you're one angry dude.

Jason:

"OK Romo...time to shut this down...we now, once again, have Keith's over the top, overly generalized, "white people are evil" diatribe."

Keith Lifetime Southsider:

"You are ALWAYS white, i mean RIGHT...RIGHT!! RIGHT!!!"

You two should host a Christian morning talk show together; call it "Livin' 4 Jesus". I've got this new bleeping machine that I've been dying to try out.

Fraizer: As I stated in my post, it really doesn't matter whether whites are offended by the N word.

I need no further proof to confirm you're a racist.

I was ROTFL at your attempt to blame white suburban kids for the re-emergance of the N word in pop culture. That's like saying drug pushers are innocent & only the users are to blame :) Of course I don't think you can blame white kids for the use of the word in films & TV series like Boondocks. I'm offended by the word & I'm not even white.

But hey, if it really doesn't matter whether whites are offended then you must be ok with the idea of different ethnic groups treating the same symbol differently. For white's & hispanics the N word represents profanity and extreme inequality of races. I'll leave it to you to teach us what it represents for blacks today.

Roman: Slezak needs to interview a reservation casino owner. I don't know much about this AIC guy but I do know an owner & I know they've done focus groups on this stuff & have a different take on it. I'm not saying all the owners think a like but I think the odds are pretty good other owners have done the same.

I think this is definitely a topic where there is no clear right/wrong answer & therefore it's best to make decisions based on a majority or consensus opinion.

Fraizer: As I stated in my post, it really doesn't matter whether whites are offended by the N word.

I need no further proof to confirm you're a racist.

I was ROTFL at your attempt to blame white suburban kids for the re-emergance of the N word in pop culture. That's like saying drug pushers are innocent & only the users are to blame :) Of course I don't think you can blame white kids for the use of the word in films & TV series like Boondocks. I'm offended by the word & I'm not even white.

But hey, if it really doesn't matter whether whites are offended then you must be ok with the idea of different ethnic groups treating the same symbol differently. For white's & hispanics the N word represents profanity and extreme inequality of races. I'll leave it to you to teach us what it represents for blacks today.

Roman: Slezak needs to interview a reservation casino owner. I don't know much about this AIC guy but I do know an owner & I know they've done focus groups on this stuff & have a different take on it. I'm not saying all the owners think a like but I think the odds are pretty good other owners have done the same.

I think this is definitely a topic where there is no clear right/wrong answer & therefore it's best to make decisions based on a majority or consensus opinion.

Tommy had it right. How we dominant culture people can rant on and on about how we are honoring Indians by our sports mascots, etc. and totally disregard all the feedback we are getting from the people we are 'honoring' is disrespectful at best. And comparing Indians and leprauchauns as similar examples is ludicrous! Leprauchauns are folklore. Indians are real people!And I don't think thoughtful consideration and discussion of these diversity and respect issues should be relegated to mere 'political correctness". Maybe that term needs to bite the dust also. Finally, if we really think it isn't a big deal what our teams are called (as we try to convince those who are offended), then it should be NO problem for us to shift our loyalties to another team name! Why all the fuss, indeed?

Jennifer...i think you are the one ignoring the feedback...

a few Native americans have spoke in this blog and said they dont feel dissrespected..and a few did. so...which native americans should we listen too?

Also...i find it weird that when we are talking about the "Idian Problem" - this wording is actually in the constitution by the way. (3 times), that somehow some people decide to make it about blacks vs. whites.

Cant we leave the black issue out of this one? Just Once?

Look...i took a Native Amercian Civil Liberties Class in College.....we studied every supreme court case that was used to further run native americans out of town and push them from their lands....and I read "Trail of Tears" (i suggest everyone pick up a copy, before they attempt to speak knowledgebly)...and I know about the Indian Affairs Bureu that was set up as a phony agency to hear comlaints from NA's and then they would find out where they were coming from and follow them back and take their land..and water rights.....and OUR COUNTRY outlawed Rain Dancing and Peyote Rituals.....i mean....OUR COUNTRY...(as in like ALL OF US's COUNTRY) did these things....NOT WHITE MEN...BUT OUR AMERICAN FOREFATHERS...wheter they were from France, or Germany or Africa or China....they all helped to run the NA"s out of town..

Hey Earnest...do you know what a real Buffalo Soldier is?

It was a regiment of Black Calvery that sole purpose was to round up the Herds of Buffalo and RUN THEM OFF CLIFFS...

why?

so the Natives couldnt live off the herd anymore...

so...whos to blame??

and Jason...seriously...Keith has actually made some very good arguments....very good..

the stuff about the Nazi with little Fighting Jews on their chest...that really kinda crystalizes it a bit...doesnt it? it did for me...and i usually think KTLSS is way off on racial matters...and.....Kobe Trade Talks...for that matter.

and.....at the end of the day....lets not fool ourselves....

If the Tribal Kings of Early America had the power or the where withall or the ability to conquer more land and more territory THEY WOULD HAVE....i mean...they were before Europeans got here...and they were doing it while we were settling..

Anyone ever heard of the Story about the First Colony on ROANOKE?

Google it....a small group of pilgrums...got SLAUGHTERED by indians..

and...since it was already brought up....the Kings of Africa were doing the same thing.

You cant just hate on the winner...really...is it Europes fault that they used GUN POWDER to make weapons....instead of FireWorks (like the chinese did...who invented Gun Powder 100's of years before guns were invented).

NO...i dont think so.

Is it really not a criticism of the human condition...

Command and Conquer?

Land and Women?

i mean...what else do you think has been motivating MANKIND all this time?

Blogging??

"I need no further proof to confirm you're a racist".

Feel free to think what you want about me. We don't know each other.

"Frazier....good response...except..you forgot to address Dana Jacobsons anti jesus rant..."

I think that Dana Jacobsen just dialed her sex appeal up 50%. No, just kidding. I think we have to consider her surroundings. She was at a friggin' roast. I've heard some very off the wall commentary at roasts and comedy shows. I'm never offended because of the environment in which these things are said. I've been to comedy shows where the white or black comic is using Black stereotypes as punch lines and I've found it funny. I've also been to shows where black or white comics are talking about whites and I've found it funny. Heck, George Lopez goes in on Latinoes. I think ESPN overreacted but I guess they had to do something. I was more embarrassed that they had to pull her from the stage against her will than I was for her comments. I think that it's okay to laugh at our eccentricities. When it's malicious, that's something else altogether.

"Hey Earnest...do you know what a real Buffalo Soldier is?"

The Buffalo Soldiers primary purpose wasn't to drive the herds from a cliff. Their primary purpose was to escort settlers and their herds West along with the railroad crews. They also were commissioned to create a geographical blueprint of the West. They had to do it mostly through heavily Native American populated areas. As a matter of fact, the Native Americans gave them their name because of their fighting ability. Moving herds from the cliffs and the terrain was a tactical part of their mission. Unfortunately, America attempted to use them to do their dirty work. Fortunately, they proved to be up to the task and then some.

Come on man, you know I'm a student of history. I don't practice that revisionist b.s.

Culzie I am in tears at your post. Thank you.

Here is an snippet from "Trail of Tears"

"There were ten million Native Americans on this continent when the first non-Indians arrived. Over the next 300 years, 90% of all Native American original population was either wiped out by disease, famine, or warfare."
-
See...the reason why NO ONE has cried and fought for the Native Americans rights.....or why their voice is so weak...is cause...

There are barely any of them left.

Indian Removal Act of 1830

On May 26, 1830, the Indian Removal Act of 1830 was passed by the Twenty-First Congress of the United states of America. After four months of strong debate, Andrew Jackson signed the bill into law. Land greed was a big reason for the federal government's position on Indian removal. This desire for Indian lands was also abetted by the Indian hating mentallity that was peculiar to some American frontiersman.

This period of forcible removal first started with the Cherokee Indians in the state of Georgia. In 1802, the Georgia legislature signed a compact giving the federal government all of her claims to western lands in exchange for the government's pledge to extigiush all Indian titles to land within the state. But by the mid-1820's Georgians began to doubt that the government would withhold its part of the bargain. The Cherokee Indian tribes had a substantial part of land in Georgia that they had had for many generations though. They were worried about losing their land so they forced the issue by adopting a written constitution. This document proclaimed that the Cherokee nation had complete jurisdiction over its own territory.

But by now Indian removal had become entwined with the state of Georgia's rights and the Cherokee tribes had to make their claims in court. When the Cherokee nation sought aid from newly elected president Andrew Jackson, he informed them that he would not interfere with the lawful prerogatives of the state of Georgia. Jackson saw the solution of the problem with the removal of the Cherokee tribes to lands west. This would keep contact between Indians and colonists rare. He suggested that laws be past so that the Indians would have to move west of the Mississippi river.

Similar incidents happened between the other "civilized" tribes and white men. The Seminole tribe had land disputes with the state of Florida. The Creek Indians fought many battles against the federal army so they could keep their land in the states of Alabama and Georgia. The Chickisaw and Choctaw had disputes with the state of Mississippi. To ensure peace the government forced these five tribes called the Five Civilized Tribes to move out of their lands that they had lived on for generations and to move to land given to them in parts of Oklahoma. Andrew Jackson was quoted as saying that this was a way of protecting them and allowing them time to adjust to the white culture. This land in Oklahoma was thinly settled and was thought to have little value. Within 10 years of the Indian Removal Act, more than 70,000 Indians had moved across the Mississippi. Many Indians died on this journey.

"The Trails of Tears"

The term "Trails of Tears" was given to the period of ten years in which over 70,000 Indians had to give up their homes and move to certain areas assigned to tribes in Oklahoma. The tribes were given a right to all of Oklahoma except the Panhandle. The government promised this land to them "as long as grass shall grow and rivers run." Unfortunately, the land that they were given only lasted till about 1906 and then they were forced to move to other reservations.

The Trails of Tears were several trails that the Five civilized Tribes traveled on their way to their new lands. Many Indians died because of famine or disease. Sometimes a person would die because of the harsh living conditions. The tribes had to walk all day long and get very little rest. All this was in order to free more land for white settlers. The period of forcible removal started when Andrew Jackson became Presidentin 1829. At that time there was reported to be sightings of gold in the Cherokee territory in Georgia which caused prospectors to rush in, tearing down fences and destroying crops. In Mississippi, the state laws were extended over Choctaw and Chickisaw lands, and in 1930 the Indians were made citizens which made it illegal to hold any tribal office. Also in Georgia, the Cherokee tribes were forbade to hold any type of tribal legislature except to

In every major war, throughout the history of the United States, from the American Revolution through the Indian Wars, Native-Americans and African-Americans have fought with and against each other. This scenario prevailed during the Civil War. Some tribes fought for the South, such as the Cherokees while others assisted the North like the Seminoles.

When Congress reorganized the peacetime regular army in the summer of 1866, it had taken the above situation into account. It also recognized the military merits of black soldiers by authorizing two segregated regiments of black cavalry, the Ninth United States Cavalry and the Tenth United States Cavalry and the 24th, 25th , 38th , 39th, 40th and 41st Infantry Regiments. Orders were given to transfer the troops to the western war arena, where they would join the army's fight with the Indians.

In 1869, one year after the discharge of Cathay Williams, the female Buffalo Soldier in disguise, the black infantry regiments were consolidated into two units, the Twenty-fourth United States Infantry and the Twenty-fifth United States Infantry. All of the black regiments were commanded by white officers at that time. See Captain David Schooley 25th Infantry, Buffalo Soldiers.

bculz post 1/31 - "Cant we leave the black issue out of this one? Just Once?"

couldn't have said it better myself...

EF...good response...very thoughtful....it must be cause valentines day is fast approaching....

But...i wasnt revising history...i was adding to it. They did drive the heards off cliffs. Not a myth.

Also, you cant really say that Black soldiers were forced to do attrocdities and white soldiers werent. The same fate woulda befallen (points?) a white soldier for disobeying orders as it would for a black soldier.

So, either we share the blame or there is no blame.

bculz:

"If the Tribal Kings of Early America had the power or the where withall or the ability to conquer more land and more territory THEY WOULD HAVE....i mean...they were before Europeans got here...and they were doing it while we were settling.."

Another part of the human condition that you're forgetting is hubris- and what goes up, must come down. Today's wars are fought partly with gunpowder; the rest is fought with words and emotions. This is why it is important to consider cultural sensitivies as well as gunpowder and cadres of unused nuclear warheads.

Well...i dont think I forgot Hubris, or Uber Alles, I think I was actually speaking to that point. It is the pride and the greed and Huberis that has launched Humans into most wars and conflicts and land grabs.

Speaking of which...does anyone want to buy any Arizona Land?

also...keylan...your post sounds eerily similar to the propaganda of a one Mr. Ossama Bin Laden....

have you been brushing up on your Terrorist Manual Reading lately??

Just a few comments from a mixed blood [my grandmother couldn't run fast enough] Native American Indian.
B.Cohen-I nominate you to run around with paint on
B.Pollina-"small neg. faction, symbol of good feelings"? You can run around with paint on too.
John-"Things not offensive". WOW who nominated you judge on things offensive, Mr white guy.
J.Hartmann- the proud heritage is not YOURS, so put a sock in it.
James- It is racially charged, but your not intelligent enough to know it!
J.Duffy- Take advantage for personal gain, Hey isn't that what whites do best?
S.Phillips- Hey "good for you not poking any fun at Indians, The logo does not belong to the you, the team or the fans, it is used without permission!
Big Pete_ I bet your likeness, is alot like your commentary, extremely UGLY!
Geoff-YOU ARE RIGHT! It is NOT for you TO JUDGE, SO SHUT UP!
Hockey dad- "Wealthy Native Americans" Now that is a joke, just like you>
Pat Smith- "reverance of the names" homage, griping or your head will explode, I would pay to see that! You don't get it.
Philtration- I don't wear panties like you might. I don't care what white names you give your teams. We are the conquered, and you will do as you see fit, but not stealing OUR HERITAGE!
B.CULZ-Check your History? 500 years ago? While Europeans were raping and pillaging their continent, Natives were enjoying incredible trade from all over the continent, while Europeans were enjoying the dark ages and plague. We have live on this land for thousands of years without killing each other off. Then the whites came and took everything, now they want our HERITAGE.
Finally to all you haters and idiots who JUST DON'T GET IT, you will never understand. Just as a man, has no clue as it is to be a woman, you have NO CLUE, as to being a Native American.

Neebin Makwah | February 1, 2008 03:11 PM - THANK YOU FOR THE TRUTH! I feel like breakdancing!

WOW! I have never seen such a self righteous group of %$#@^, poor excuse for humans. Being mixed blood "OJIBWAY",Irish and German, I always offended by stereotypes, particularly NATIVE AMERICANS. You white folks are a hoot, you take no responsibility for your savage actions against us. You think all tribes have casinos, you think of us as second class peoples, while you live on stolen Scared ground. We as a group could care less about sports teams.
How about this. We rename the Blackhawks, Irish hooligans or shanty Irish. The Redskins to the Ubangis, they could all wear African tribal dress or better yet how about the Washington coonskins, or Atlanta Crypts
How about the Cleveland Crackers or better yet the Cleveland Nazis
Oh yeah! I'm sure all of you would be proud to wear those jerseys.
I'll bet you think those comments are racist, they are, and THATS THE POINT. Now for the Coment, its out of place and racist. For all of you haters out there, get a life.
MAKWAH

Posted by: Neebin Makwah | January 29, 2008 12:16 PM

You may be an Native American...but for picking on me....someone who has been supporting the native americans this entire post....my friend you are also an IMMBECILE!!!!!

Also...any fool who disrespects his own Gmother is a fool...and an ignoramus. Your lucky your Grandma intermixed her genes with White man...or you'd probably be belly up in a gutter next to Casino Arizona.

DONT EVER MESS WITH CHIEF BCULZ.

bculz:

"It is the pride and the greed and Hub[e]ris that has... "

Stop adding the letter "e" to words that don't have them. It's racist.

The Honor Indians Institute has developed an "Alternative Indian Mascot" for all of the professional teams that use Indian imagery for their mascot, including the Chicago Blackhawks (and the University of Illinois.) We noticed that some of you have suggested 2 birds to replace Chief Blackhawk as your mascot. We actually have done that!!! Look at honorindians.com, click the "alternative Indian mascots" link to see what we have done. It is actually alot cooler than the Indian head! Let us know what you think. Constructive comments are always welcome, but please no obscenities if you respond. We actually are trying to help.

Roman responds: I looked at the site. I thought there were going to be serious alternatives, but they're parodies.

Should we outlaw those little plastic cowboy's and indians toys that came in a bag...that I had? Those and the army men were the best.

America is a melting pot & as such it's expected for the people here to grow in tolerance of other people's views & lifestyles. Tolerance though doesn't require acceptance. I can tolerate someone's opinion & still think it's BS.

Some believe we are a nation under God & that's fine but in reality we are a nation under free-market capitalism & as such regardless of what any individual thinks it's the marketplace that ultimately decides what icons rise, what icons fade, & what icons stand the test of time.

I have no doubt there are more women in America against the porn industry than there are native Americans against the Blackhawks logo. Women are treated like sex objects in just about every media outlet there is today. It is rare to find any media where they aren't. Some women like this, but I'm not sure the majority does. There are laws against it but they have no teeth when society is so mesmorized by the idea. It's so pervasive in our culture that women are finding it harder to cry "rape" without being labeled a "slut". IL has been maded infamous from the case of high schooler in recent years.

My point is this: the degree to which an injustice is committed with the Blackhawks logo is miniscule compared to much greater injustices in America today. Just as there are many women profiting from the "sex object" stereo-type in America today there are native Americans profiting from the "Indian" stereo-type as well. That makes it harder to sell the idea of an injustice for both.

Jaun...seriously...good points about the sex trade industry....but...you missed one major aspect...that renders this point totoally irrelevant....

Women werent systimatically DESTROYED and RUN OUT OF THE COUNTRY for the last 400 years. Not that women didnt have it rough....they did. But totally different argument.

The Native American plight is only comparable to the plight of the Armenians or the Jews....(I wont even say it compares with Slavery)...since it was worse...it was PURE GENOCIDE!

To me, thats a little bit worse than making a Porn!

Culzie good post to Juan. But that issue does not make it right to diss someone else. We are discussing Native Americans on this blog as it relates to the Blackhawks. Savy's comment made it a relevant sports topic. Its not to say that we don't appreciate or arent concerned about any other issue - because believe me, I don't like ANY injustice. But just to say for sake of focus, this is our issue at hand - or other issues that compare.

Bculz, your point is irrelevant. That genocide is not an injustice that exists in America today. It's one of many injustices of the 19th century. Violent racism was prevalent in America then. The Italians no more tolerated the Irish than they did the natives. Some powerful Italians actually had more respect for the natives.

The same can be said for the natives themselves. The idea that all tribes lived in harmony with one another is ludicrous. There were warring tribes that raped and pillaged other tribes. This fact is attributed as one of the major reasons why the settlers had the upper hand. Guns alone does not explain things for the natives had a better understanding of the land and knew how to evade superior forces. The pillaging tribes produced good trackers and they sold out their brethren in exchange for money and hatred.

On a larger scale the idea of reparations itself is racist. America sits at about 300 mil citizens & some 30-40 non-citizens. Nearly all of those people represent descendants of poor immigrants that have migrated to this country since the late 19th century. They share no ancestry with the attrocities that occured before they arrived so there is no justifiable reason to burden them with the cosequences of reparations. To suggest that one races attrocties merit reparations over another is racism itself.

Juan? Where is the proof of all this raping and pillaging amongst
each other. What you speak of happened only after waschetu "white eyes" arrived. B.Culz, you are not a Chief. You are not a real supporter of Native Americans. If you were, you would know that by refering to yourself, or any Native, as Chief is akin to using the N word with blacks. Your history is weak, your knowledge weaker. As far as disrespecting my grandmother, thats was her joke. If you have ever been to a real POW WOW, you might just hear that line alot. We too can laugh at our siuation, for without a sense of humor, we would find it most difficult to survive among our conquerers!

using the word Chief is like usig the N word?

wha wha what???

Juan:

"On a larger scale the idea of reparations itself is racist...there is no justifiable reason to burden them with the cosequences of reparations. To suggest that one races attrocties merit reparations over another is racism itself."

America is facing a sharp decrease in consumer spending at a time when consumer spending accounts for 3/4ths of the economy. The presidents's solution is to offer rebate checks and mortgage bailouts for those who don't need to spend and don't want to spend: people who aren't behind on their mortgage; have a steady job, and or produce their own goods; and will not spend more money on consumer goods because of a bleak economic forecast.

Black Americans are the country's most reliable consumers: We produce almost nothing ourselves; everything is bought from another race. If blacks were to be offered rebate checks, you can be sure that that money would be spent at a big department store, an electronics store, a grocery store, or a restaurant. Reparations won't give blacks an "unfair" advantage over white's, hispanics and asians -certainly, a few hundred dollars won't make us all rich millionaires-, but it will help consumer spending. Why won't our politicians suggest this? Because giving free money to blacks is a "handout" while giving free money to wealthy whites, asians and hispanics is called an "economic stimulus plan".

Black Americans are the country's most reliable consumers: We produce almost nothing ourselves; everything is bought from another race. (kEYLAN)

Will someone within this guy's own race talk some sense into him. He obviously wont listen to me.

You dont think there are black men in Manufacturing and Distribution industries? Textiles? Automative industry? Artesians? Shop Owners? Small Business owners?

Dude....im glad your not my races spokesman in this blog ;)

keylan you are a trip dude....

stick to talking about the cubs...cause your insight into economics sets everyone here back 1800 years.

BCULZ:

"You dont think there are black men in Manufacturing and Distribution industries? Textiles? Automative industry? Artesians? Shop Owners? Small Business owners?"

"stick to talking about the cubs...cause your insight into economics sets everyone here back 1800 years."

We weren't even on this continent 1800 years ago. Sure, there are plenty of black men IN Manufacturing, and Distribution and Textiles, but compared proportionally to whites and other demographics in America, what segments of these industries are FULLY OWNED by black men?

Black men are the least wealthy demographic in America and Black Americans spend most of their money with companies that are not black-owned. I don't have to hide it, everybody knows, but even though black men aren't rich, we can still contribute to society. And I don't like baseball so much.

CAMAC, Houston, Texas
This Houston-based energy producer and distributor, a freshman from the 2002 list, still leads the pack with $1.09 billion. Led by Nigerian-born Kase L. Lawal, it is the second billion-dollar monolith to be included among the BE100s. The last time a billion dollar leviathan was included among the BE100s was in 1998 when TLC Beatrice International Holdings Inc., the former New York City-based operator of offshore grocery stores and food manufacturers created by the late, legendary financier Reginald Lewis, posted sales of $1.4 billion.

World Wide Technology Holding Co. Inc., Maryland Heights, Missouri
To steer their companies toward profitability, some companies have had to revamp their operations. In 2001, CEO David Steward spun off his Internet service, telecobuy.com, from World Wide Technology (WWT), creating two BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE 100 companies. Last year, he formed World Wide Technology (WWT), the new parent company for WWT and telecobuy.com.

Act One Personnel Services, Torrance, California
CEO Janice Bryant Howroyd's 300-employee staffing and professional services firm in Torrance, California, ranks high on the list with $487.53 million in revenues. This is the largest company on the 2003 BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE 100 list headed by a woman.

The Philadelphia Coca-Cola Bottling Co., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
As one of the largest distributors of Coca-Cola products nationwide, the Philadelphia Coca-Cola Bottling Co. (No. 4 on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with $435 million in sales) continues to quench its clients' thirst. It serves over 5.6 million consumers, offering 35 beverage choices.

Johnson Publishing Co. Inc., Chicago, Illinois
The world's largest black-owned publishing company, Johnson Publishing Company Inc., (No. 5 on the 2003 BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with $424.74 million in sales) is currently led by Linda Johnson Rice, daughter of founder John Johnson. The company was among the first to establish an African American presence on Madison Avenue by helping to change its marketing and advertising strategies.

Barden Cos. Inc., Detroit, Michigan
And the 2003 BLACK ENTERPRISE Company of the Year award goes to … Barden Cos. Inc. Over the past three decades, CEO Don Barden has built a multimillion-dollar real estate portfolio, a cable business that ranked among the nation's largest black-owned businesses, and, more recently, a gaming powerhouse. Barden is the first and only African American to own a casino in the gaming capital of America: Las Vegas. This puts him in three of the top five U.S. markets--he owns establishments in Tunica, Mississippi, and Gary, Indiana. The strength of his operations earned Barden Companies Inc. the No. 6 spot on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with $347 million in revenues.

The Bing Group, Detroit, Michigan
Detroit-based automotive supplier, The Bing Group (No. 7 on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with $344 million in sales), posted a healthy 19.9% revenue increase over the last year--from $287 million to $344 million--by putting emphasis on a lean manufacturing operation, increasing employee productivity, and implementing tight-fisted cost controls and top-flight customer service. Those moves earned The Bing Group, one of 91 General Motors suppliers worldwide, the coveted BE Supplier of the Year award for outstanding performance in 2002. With a growth goal of 10%-15% for 2003, the company plans to expand business with existing customers and to possibly undertake an acquisition or joint venture within the steel industry.

Radio One Inc., Lanhan, Maryland
This Lanham, Maryland-based comeback kid currently ranks No. 8 on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with 335.75 million in revenues. The radio giant, which owns and/or operates 66 stations in 22 markets, recently partnered with Comcast to develop a new television network, which will be launched later this year. Viewers can expect a mix of dramatic series, movies, lifestyle shows, game shows, talk shows, sitcoms, and music videos. Although it didn't appear on last year's list, it was most recently on the 2001 BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list, ranking No. 17 with $177.22 million in revenues.

Harpo Inc., Chicago, Illinois
As producer and host of The Oprah Winfrey Show and publisher of O magazine, Winfrey, CEO of Harpo Inc. (No. 9 on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list with $314.5 million in revenues), reaches millions of viewers and readers worldwide and uses that reach to help viewers improve their lives and their world. Winfrey has the distinction of being the only African American woman in TV and film to own her own production studio and the only female African American billionaire.
Global Automotive Alliance L.L.C., Detroit, Michigan
Detroit-based Global Automotive Alliance L.L.C. (No. 10 on the BE INDUSTRIAL/SERVICE list) grew 29.8%, from $235 million in 2001 to $305 million in 2002. Global sales were driven by its production of plastic fuel storage systems. Acting on the philosophy that the time to reduce operation costs is when things are going well, CEO William F. Pickard has been evangelical about efficiency. The reason: Pickard wants to expand his reach to snare lucrative contracts from foreign car manufacturing plants.

http://www.census.gov/prod/ec02/sb0200csblk.pdf

Page 15 has stats on how many black owned manufacturing companies there really are in the REAL world.

You need to stop feeling so sorry for yourself pal and pull it together.

Funny comment about baseball though...

your ok in my book K

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BCULZ:

"You need to stop feeling so sorry for yourself pal and pull it together."

You never read my post nor my response. I said that black men are proportionately less wealthy and that blacks are more likely to buy rather than produce when compared to the other demographics in America. You posted nine companies- one was headed by an African; another by a woman. There are 35 million black Americans. Nine into 35 million is statistically nonexistent.

Those were the TOP 10 dude...not the only ten.

I cant risk getting skimmed anymore...

i made a great case...for actually both sides of this argument...so if you need more info...just go back and re read this thread. Its all been covered.

(Since we are on the topic of Rights)

Coming to a Street Corner near you...

Religious police in Saudi Arabia arrest mother for sitting with a man

Sonia Verma in Dubai
Daniel Finkelstein: Go ahead with your loudspeakers. But not here

A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.

Yara, who does not want her last name published for fear of retribution, was bruised and crying when she was freed from a day in prison after she was strip-searched, threatened and forced to sign false confessions by the Kingdom's “Mutaween” police.

Her story offers a rare first-hand glimpse of the discrimination faced by women living in Saudi Arabia. In her first interview with the foreign press, Yara told The Times that she would remain in Saudi Arabia to challenge its harsh enforcement of conservative Islam rather than return to America.

BCULZ:

"I cant risk getting skimmed anymore."

You speak as if I were cheating on you- sorry honey, but a man's got needs. I'm getting my information from books written by black entrepreneurs. Even though they acknowledge being successful, they also acknowledge that blacks tend to purchase with companies that are not owned by blacks. And black firms tend to be less wealthy than other firms of the same category.

The PDF in your link shows 1 Million firms. One million out of 35 million is less than a third of one percent. Black men are collectively the least wealthy demographic in America. That's not self-pity, that's a fact.

Keylan, see what I did here was take Culzie's very own words to use against him because he's become so long-winded I can no longer keep up. I just don't have it in me to read/proofread the novellas he's posted in this thread. Plus this topic is so freakin' boring anyway. It's weird he even has the time to go to such lengths, what with all the swampland, er, I mean, desert lakefront property he's selling these days.

Its more like a baked clay actually...

Keylan...this will just have to wait until the next racially charges thread...

but...my parting comment is...

you act like the population is 50/50 50% white and 50% black...

but African Americans...only make up like what...20% of the population in the US? so...I would say 35% is pretty good. In that case. Wouldnt you?

Get out your glasses....

Church backlash as Archbishop of Canterbury calls for Sharia law in Britain
Last updated at 13:52pm on 08.02.08
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Dr Rowan Williams: 'We have to think about the rule of law in a society of overlapping identities'

The Archbishop of Canterbury's claim that it seems "unavoidable" that some form of Sharia law will be introduced in Britain today came under attack from his own senior clergy.

The Bishop of Southwark the Right Reverend Tom Butler cast doubts on the argument that the Islamic law will come into force in the UK.

He said: "It will take a great deal more thought and work before I think it's a good idea."

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme whether the Church of England leader, Dr Rowan Williams, should have been more diplomatic in his speech which sparked the controversy, Dr Butler said: "The Archbishop has a way with language but this was a very heavy lecture."

He admitted that the Dr Williams had entered a "minefield" with his views on Sharia law and it was not clear whether he would backtrack on behalf of the Church of England, on this issue.

He said: "Like all bishops I'm waking up this morning to a shoal of emails from clergy asking what's going on."

Culture Secretary Andy Burnham also launched a ferocious backlash against the Archbishop of Canterbury's claims about sharia law.

Brutal: Elements of Sharia law are known for being barbaric

The Cabinet minister warned against such a radical legal shake-up in the UK stressing it would be a "recipe for social chaos".

Dr Williams faced a barrage of criticism for arguing that sharia law should be given some form of legal status in the UK.

Voicing the views of many MPs, Mr Burnham said: "This isn't a path down which we should go. The system, the British legal system, should apply to everybody equally.

"You cannot run two systems of law alongside each other. That in my view would be a recipe for chaos, social chaos. British law has to be based on British values.

"If people choose to live in this country, they choose to abide by that law and that law alone.

"It has got to be fundamental and a cornerstone of our country and our democracy that everybody is equal before that one system of British law."

This morning it also emerged that Sharia crime courts are already operating in parts of Britain.

According to a youth worker, a group of Somali youths were arrested by police on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager.

But the victim's family told officers the matter would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail.

A Sharia court was convened and elders ordered the assailants to compensate the victim.

The Archbishop of Canterbury caused consternation yesterday when he called for Islamic law to be recognised in Britain.

He declared that Sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives.

This raised the prospect of Islamic courts in Britain with full legal powers to approve polygamous marriages, grant easy divorce for men and prevent finance firms from charging interest.

His comments in a BBC interview and a lecture to lawyers were condemned at a time when government ministers are striving to encourage integration and stop the nation from "sleepwalking to segregation".

The Prime Minister rapidly distanced himself from Dr Williams's view. Gordon Brown's spokesman said: "Our general position is that sharia law cannot be used as a justification for committing breaches of English law, nor should the principles of sharia law be included in a civil court for resolving contractual disputes.

"The Prime Minister believes British law should apply in this country, based on British values."

Dr Williams's words opened a chasm over Islam between senior leaders of the Church of England, who are already trying to deal with an Anglican war over gay rights which broke out after he was appointed archbishop.

The Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, is facing death threats following his warning last month about Muslim "no-go areas" in Britain.

And the Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu, who has been fiercely critical of Muslim extremists, said last year that "the imposition of sharia law, Britain as a Muslim society - that will never happen".

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Controversial: Protestors demand Sharia law in Britain

In his lecture, 57-year-old Dr Williams said that "we have to think a little harder about the role and rule of law in a plural society of overlapping identities".

He added that it would be possible to develop "a scheme in which individuals retain the liberty to choose the jurisdiction under which they will seek to resolve certain carefully specified matters, so that power-holders are forced to compete for the loyalty of their shared constituents.

"This may include aspects of marital law, the regulation of financial transactions, and authorised structures of mediation and conflict resolution."

The archbishop attempted to distance himself from the extreme legal systems run in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, where adultery can be punished by death and women who behave independently risk harsh punishments.

"Nobody in their right mind, I think, would want to see in this country a kind of inhumanity that sometimes appears to be associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states - the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well," he said.

Dr Williams pointed out that Jewish Beth Din courts already operate in Britain. But these, like sharia arrangements currently existing in Muslim areas, are voluntary understandings conducted with the agreement of participants.

Alternative sharia courts as proposed by the archbishop would dish out enforceable law.

Muslim groups responded cautiously to Dr Williams's proposals. A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: "We will need to look carefully at the archbishop's lecture."

The Ramadhan Foundation youth organisation said the scheme would help build respect and tolerance.

Its director Mohammed Shafiq said: "Sharia law for civil matters is something which has been introduced in some western countries with much success; I believe that Muslims would take huge comfort from the Government allowing civil matters being resolved according to their faith."

But he added: "We are however disappointed that the Archbishop of Canterbury was silent when Bishop Nazir-Ali was promoting intolerance and lying about no-go areas for Christians in the UK by Muslim extremists.

"Unless he speaks out against this intolerance, Muslims will take his silence as authorisation and support for such comments."

Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said Dr Williams's comments gave "succour to extremists".

"He needs to understand that his words carry enormous weight," he said in a Channel 4 interview.

"What he seems to be talking about is a situation in which people are treated differently under the law according to their religion. People cannot be treated differently. Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.

"I don't doubt the archbishop's desire to accommodate diversity, but we cannot do so at the expense of our common values."

He described Dr Williams as "muddled" and "dangerous".

Mr Phillips was the first prominent Labour figure to condemn multiculturalism, the Left-wing doctrine which promotes different cultures.

He declared that under its influence Britain was sleepwalking to segregation.

Yesterday he said the "implication that British courts should treat people differently based on their faith is divisive and dangerous.

"It risks removing the protection afforded by law, for example, to children in custody cases or women in divorce proceedings.

"The first people who would suffer would be ethnic-minority citizens. Follow the logic of this extreme multiculturalism through and where do we end up?

With a group of white Christians in Barking and Dagenham deciding they had a conscientious objection to nonwhite Muslims in their neighbourhoods - and seeking the support of the courts?"

Mike Judge, of the Christian Institute, said: "I am appalled that the head of the Church of England is advocating that parts of sharia law should be introduced into British law.

"The idea that you can have the moderate bits without the nasty bits coming along at a later time is naive."

Tory backbencher David Davies, an Anglican, said: "I am astounded. Dr Williams is a nice enough man, very intellectual, but he has clearly lost the plot.

"He's one of the most influential Christian prelates in the world and he's supposed to be standing up for Christianity.

"What he's doing is abandoning his own religion. If people come to this country they should be prepared to compromise their own traditions to fit in with the host country.

Tory cohesion spokesman Baroness Warsi, a Muslim herself, said: "The archbishop's comments are unhelpful and may add to the confusion that already exists in our communities.

"Freedom under the law allows respect for some religious practices.

"But let's be absolutely clear. All British citizens must be subject to British laws developed through Parliament and the courts."

Keylan:

"One million out of 35 million is less than a third of one percent."

Boy was I wrong. This is actually around three percent.

Julie B.

"It's weird he even has the time to go to such lengths, what with all the swampland, er, I mean, desert lakefront property he's selling these days."

By the time he sells that property, humans will have abandoned Earth and will be living on Pluto.

Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ & search on Navajo, Cherokee, Choctaw, Sioux, Chippewa, Apache, Lumbee, Blackfeet, Iroquois, and Pueblo before writing nonsense.

There were superpowers amongst the natives & they often allied themselves with the superpowers of England & France to crush their native enemies. European diseases mostly wiped out the natives but on the battlefield they were hampered by a severe lack of unity amongst themselves.

So what juan is saying is that white people were taken at knife point by the natives and forced to conquer their land and put them on reservations.

bculz:

"African Americans...only make up like what...20% of the population in the US? so...I would say 35% is pretty good. In that case. Wouldnt you?"

Nowhere in any of my posts did I use the term "thirty-five percent".

Knife or.... Sharpened Bone??

What Keylan is saying is that he doesn't know how to read.

Its time to end this!!! culz and keylan are just running off their mouths, about nothing to do with the original point. Keylan you are a Moron. You will never get it, why, because you can't look at things objectively. Both of you need to get a life.
I am tired of this, whities win again.

I just wish Anonymous had the Cuhones...(is that native mexican?) to post his real name...

bculz:

"I just wish Anonymous had the Cuhones...(is that native mexican?) to post his real name..."

We're posting real names here? That's great, because Keylan is my real name, you know.

Anonymous: "You will never get it, why, because you can't look at things objectively."

Get what? What things? I see a bunch of whack posts on a message board and I just start bussn'- that's how I do, you know.

"I am tired of this, whities win again."

Whites win what, a trip to Disneyland?

KEYLAN//
why did you attribute all those wacked quotes to me...i only said the first wacked one...about not having cuhones.

come on dude...if your gonna buss ballz...at least buss the right ones.

bculz:

"why did you attribute all those wacked quotes to me[?]i only said the first wacked one[,]about not having cuhones[!]"

No problems homie. I'm jackin' on everybody, to put it more eloquently.

im not even gonna touch it!