Full Court Press

Yes its time to start AGray....Big Ben is awful, 15 million a year, that might be the worst contract in the NBA...AGray can pass, make free throws and actually put the ball in the bucket all thing Big Ben can NOT do....this is a not brainer...Wallace its time to ride some pine, or catch a train out of chi town.

I mean it wouldn't hurt to start him the bulls suck anyway.Lets see what the guy got. I mean I would put Ben Wallace on the trading block anyway because he is a over paid power forward that can't scorer.

This kid isn't all-star caliber, but i noticed he gave us something we sorely lacked....presence in the paint. even if he does give us cartwright type numbers....its still an improvement and paxson made a good move by picking him up. what sux is that he is a rookie and the growing pains come with it. i wouldn't start him just yet....but i'd keep his minutes to 25+ and consistent so he can shake out the growing pains as quickly as possible.

i think he WILL be decent enough to shake off the notion that the Bulls don't have a paint presence.

Start him against the bigger lineups, and use Smith as a center against the smaller lineups.

Gray sets monster screens (I call dibbs on the "Big Gray Wall" nickname).
He can pass. he's got a good set of fundamentals. He's not fast, but he's got great post footwork and court vision. he's starting to understand the defensive rotations better so he's not a liability when he's on the floor, and he allows you to get the screen and roll and pick and pop game opened up from either the high screen or dropping it in to the post and kicking it out when the defense collapses.

The Bulls haven't been able to run the offense through the post like they did against the Wizards since Curry left town, and it really looks like Gray is starting to get enough trust from his teammates that he could add a really nice dynamic that will go a long way in settling down this offense and bring those field goal percentages back up. If he can give you 8-10 points a game I think you'll see Kirk, Luol, and Ben's numbers open up more, too.

And if nothing else, just watch him set a screen. I've never seen so many players run into a wall like that. A Big Gray Wall.

Go Bulls.

I tell you what, just watching him set screens lately has been fun.

I don't understand why we can't let Ben heal, then bring him back as a power forward. Granted he's not going to give you much offensively, but if agressive defense, and a balanced scoring attack is the plan, wouldn't his offense not be missed (it's not missed now) ?

I'm with you Roman, start the rook. Let him develop, and have Noah and Thomas come off the bench and bring an energy spark down low, and put them out there with three guards. A run and gun, high energy squad who can run you out of the building.

Whatever they do, I would hope that they can turn it around, because otherwise it's going to be a long winter.

Roman responds: I'm not sure what to do with the four. I wouldn't start Ben there. I'd pick between Tyrus and Nocioni. I hate keep Tyrus off the cojurt, but I'm not sure how he'd do with Gray.

Could not agree with you more. Ever since camp broke I have been saying Skiles should start Gray with Ben playing the 4. Post-up offense and two big guys that can defend and rebound. While Smith has played well he isnt a big minute guy at this stage in his career and wil perform better against 2nd team players. The question that needs to be addressed is what does Skiles do with the sudden stock of capable bigs?

I also think young Mr. Gray is our best option at the center position. He may not be the most dominate center but who is. He can do the same things that Will Perdue,Luke Longley did and thats cloog up the middle of the lane. He also has some talent to go with his size and give us something Ben wallace can't and thats points from the center position. I like Ben wallace but he isn't and should'nt be the focal point for any team. Wallace tries to do to much sometimes when he should just concentrate on rebounding. If Skiles has an ounce of braines in that balding head of his he will continue to use Gray.He always seem to go away from what works.Start Gray for the future of this team Baldy.

PG Kirk Hinrich
SG Ben Gordon
SF Luol Deng
PF Ben Wallace
C Aaron Gray

I agree with Fout. You have to play Gray against the talent he is effective against. He would be useless on the floor against Phoenix. And he is not fit for the full season. But against other clubs he would match up well. Gray is still green, but he should be the first man off the bench behind Smith. Let Thomas and Noah rotate off the 4. Deng and Noch off the 3. Gordon and JamesOn off the 2 and Kirk and Duhon off the 1.

I believe Ben Wallace is hurt. He needs to rest and tune up for down the stretch and playoffs.

Gray has been setting some monster screens and he should be starting along with Thomas so they can develop together. They looked pretty good together angainst the Wiz even though they dont have any good big men. Also its about time to trade Big Bust (Ben)the only trouble with that is they are going to have to take on another bad contract, but they should try to get him off the roster because there are not enough minutes to let Gray, Thomas, and Noah develop along with giving Noc and Smith some quality min. The way those three develop is going to determine if they make the playoffs and they are going to need them if they want to win at least one series.

I would definitely start Gray while Wallace is out of the line up, but you can't start a 2nd round rookie over your highest paid veteran. However it is clear that Wallace is not the player that he was with Detroit, and that Gray did provide a post presence that the Bulls have seriously lacked. His vision and passing ability clearly made the entire team better in yesterday's victory. Gray found cutters slashing to the basket and open shooters when double teamed. When the defense stayed man to man on him, he showed that he does have some decent moves in the post. I don't think this kid is a future all star, but he does have sound fundamentals and knowledge of the game. The Bulls need someone to provide a post presence, and Gray is clearly the best internal option. He definitely deserves more extended playing time and a regular spot in the rotation. If he can provide 20-25 minutes a game at a level consistent to what he displayed last night, then I think he will provide a much needed shot in the arm for the Bulls and just might be the spark that turns their season around.

Starting Gray is a no brainer for a few reasons. For one there are not alot of great centers in the league. i'm not saying that Gray is great, but at least we will have that post presence that is needed. he can help spread the floor and the fact that he passes well out of the double team with our shooters creates more offense which the Bulls need. If the Lakers can make a 7ft high school player look good down below, then we should be able to do the same. Bynaum did own Gray when the Bulls played the lakers but he did hold his own and we haven't seen that in a while.

Did anyone see Deng guard Kobe? If he can do that, let him play some two with Gordon and Kirk. It seems when Duhon comes in, Kirk plays the two. Gray, Ben and Noah at center with Tyrus, Smith and Nocioni at the four with the occasional Noah. I would like to see Sefalosha play more at the two.
It seems like the team is starting to find it's rotation.

Starting Gray makes sense. Wallace is a better defender when he has someone else with him to watch his back so that he can float and roam. Gray's size makes him formidable for any opponent in the paint, and it would free Wallace to be far more aggressive with his play.

Offensivly it would give us a low post presnece to get double teams. That means that Ben would get far more open looks at the bucket then he currently does, and Gray could go to his post up game if people start respecting Wallace offensivly and single teaming Gray (yeah, right).

Another scenario is that he kicks the ball back out of the post to the shooters when their guys double down on him. I'm not saying that the guy is Shaq, but if he can create scoring in the post, or cause space for our shooters by forcing defenders into playing a halfway game between our shooters and him it would only help our game... Plus I think he'd be a better tip off man then Wallace.

Castle GraySkull!!!!!!!!

There is nothing like having an AirCraft Carrier on a long Road Trip.

On the offensive end I think Gray is better than Cartwright was as a Bull, defensively, not so much. Gray makes me think back to Tom Boerwinkle, great passer, nice shooting touch, solid all around NBA center, but not an all-star. Gray is better than Curry already, the offense seems to flow better with him than it ever did with Curry. Grays low post skills look very smooth and natural, he clearly has more impact on the Bulls offense than Wallace. Gray should get at least half the minutes at center, especially on those nights when Wallace doesn't feel like bringing it, these days at least 50% of the time. At this point I would rather see Gray and Noah split the time at center, and Thomas and Nocioni split time at power forward, but at $15 million per and with Skiles foolish loyalty to his vets that isn't happenning any time soon. Joe Smith is a nice part time player, but he isn't getting us to championship level, all he really does is impede the progress of our young bigs. How about this blockbuster trade to clear some playing time and improve our chances of getting to championship level. Gordon, Hinrich, Wallace, and Smith to Memphis for Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro. Unfortunatly Memphis wouldn't want Wallace's contract even to unload Gasol's, and Navarro has played so well as a starter that he is probably more valueable than Hinrich and Gordon combined. However, he is an unrestricted free agent after this season, so maybe there is some shot at making a package deal with Gasol. By trading four for two we can shorten our rotation and include all the young bigs, and maybe Thabo can get some consistent run time, even though Skiles doesn't seem to like him, he is the new Chandler to Skiles. And don't even get me started on the nightly 15 and 15 that Chandler is putting up. How do Pax and Skiles get a pass for giving up on a young talented 7'2" player to soon. Keeping my fingers crossed on Gray, but I like what I see a lot.

I am really surprise Gray is doing so well. Spencer Hawes was a freshman and he had a good day against him. Hey, hey A. Gray. Give him a shot while Ben heals and play it by ear when Ben is ready to go. Maybe TT will observe what hustle will do to playing time. I find it amazing how many athletic, high fliers never bother to learn how to shoot or develop other skills that "normal" people need to do to play.

Well I had asked right after the pre-season why hasn't Gray been playing? Now I believe he has earned the right to start against the teams he matches up well with. There are instances when he would be better coming off the bench but i think he should be playing 24+ minutes every game. Also Tyrus shoud be getting a minimum of 24 minutes. And not only did Deng defend well against Kobe as was mentioned in an earlier post but so did Noce, neither of them went for the head or ball fakes Kobe is so well known for. Another little tid bit for thought....Wallace was most dominant after the Pistons aquired "Sheed". Put him on the floor at the 4 with Gray at center and watch the oppositions shooting percentage drop!

Why not start Gray at center Wallace at powerforward since he's undersized for a center, deng at the three, gordon at the two and hinrich at the point.

Someone said that Gray is no all star. Sorry but neither is Ben Wallace and it has nothing to do with an injury. He has done nothing at all since signing with the Bulls and it is time that they admit that he is not the guy. Let someone else get a chance to play who can score two or three times more than Wallace while pulling down more boards.
Ben Wallace is done and I would not mind not seeing play another game in Chicago.

Whoa. The "Great White Hope" mass hysteria machine has kicked in again, eh?

C'mon now, "Aircraft Carrier?" Get real. "Best Bulls center since Bill Cartwright?" Don't insult Big Bill's legacy. Cartwright had a number of years in the league under his belt when he joined the Bulls. He also had some offensive moves that were money in the bank. He may not have been the best scoring big man ever, but he hit baseline jumpers with consistency, and had a couple of drop-steps that were very hard to defend. Big Bill also played incredible defense against the best big men of his era (e.g. Ewing, who was an utter train wreck against him). The Bulls were able to open games dumping the ball into the post because it was good early offense that took pressure off Jordan and Pippen and forced opposing defenses to collapse into the lane. Cartwright was long and athletic enough (and shot the ball from such a high hand position) that his shots were almost un-blockable. Can we say anything of the sort about Aaron Gray yet?

Gray came in against the Lakers and promptly had two of his shots blocked by that All-World Center, Andrew Bynum (that's sarcasm, for those who aren't adept at reading between the lines). Bynum also scored at will on him. Why the Lakers didn't just keep dumping the ball down to him was beyond me. He was clearly too quick and athletic for Gray. Aaron had a better game against Brendan Haywood, but that's still not much of a yardstick for NBA success.

I'm not saying that Gray is worthless. In fact, I'm happy the Bulls are giving him a chance. He's big and reasonably skilled (for a slow-footed guy who doesn't jump well). Just don't expect him to be an NBA starter. He will get spot duty against a few teams (the ones he matches up well against), and that's about it. With so many good teams playing Forwards as Centers these days (Pistons, Celtics, Suns, Raptors, etc.) it's just not feasible to put a big lug out there and expect him to keep up.

All of this is just obscuring the fact that the Bulls need to make a deal and get a real NBA-caliber post-up player. At this point the entire team should be considered available for trades. Other teams made off-season moves to improve (how 'bout them Celts, eh?) while the Bulls stood pat. It's obvious at this point that the Bulls don't have what it takes to win a Championship with this squad. Starting Aaron Gray isn't going to help them toward this end (I believe the notion of a rookie 2nd-round Center pushing a second-tier team over the top to win an NBA Championship is unprecedented in league history - anyone dispute that?), so it's irrelevant this season, unless the team is already in "rebuilding" mode. Pax clearly needs to fall out of love with his draft picks and make a deal soon, or the future is pretty bleak.

Pardon the negativity, but the fact that the team is still well below .500 a quarter of the way into the season and the best thing we have to talk about is Aaron Gray is somewhat depressing, no?

I was against getting rid of Curry,and Chandler.The signing of Ben Wallace shocked me No other team would have payed him that much money at his,age,and size.He played good defence in the Detroit system.He could disrupt the middle and get some rebounds.He wasnt asked to score.The man is a worse shot tha Will Pudue!He is no passer.How many charges have you sen him take?Hinrich takes more than he does.He dosent fit at all in the Bulls offence.
We saw a rooky journyman like Gray,help the Bulls offence more than Wallace has in 2 years.Grey is no superstar,and never will be,but with this team using him in the right places,could make the Bulls a much better team.Remember some good centers have made a fool out of Wallace too.He is too small,and doesnt seem to have the desire he had with Detroit.Wallace suceeeded in a system,and played his butt off.He doesnt have really as much as even Gray at this time in his career.Skiles couldnt caoch Curry,Chandler...or Tim Thomas.All seem better than what the Bulls got for them.I hope Skiles Crew can coach Tyrus Thomas,and Noah and Gray.Some body has to teach Noah how to shoot.If anyone ever guards him he will never get a shot off.A couple of games has showm what even a mediocre center could mean to the Bulls.Would any GM take wallace for a third round draft pick.If the Bullls picked up most of his salery?If they had a real NBA center they could play with anybody.

I always watch how the offense and defense react when Big Ben gets the ball in the middle, and not only does the 'D' refuse to lean his way but his OWN MAN backs off as well. Now, when Gray gets the ball, the defender nearest the free throw line leans his way pretty much all the time leaving an open shooter available. Not only that but we are now playing FIVE ON FIVE on that end of the court. With the exception of Gordon every now and then, we really don't have a guard who can blow past his man and create shots for the others. Starting the play in the middle of a SHOOTING BIG MANS' hands plays to our strengths much better. Deng and Nocioni create shots better than any of our guards and that doesn't fare well for the assist category, which I feel to be one of the more important stats in the game. Wallace does so many good things on the defensive end that don't show up in the box, it's hard to discount the man, but we don't have the guards Detroit has and his role actually hurts our squad more than helps. In the infamous words of Lovie, we should "play the guys who give us the best chance to win". The playing time will give Gray a chance to lose a little body fat, enhance his game and open up some much needed relaxed shots.

I always watch how the offense and defense react when Big Ben gets the ball in the middle, and not only does the 'D' refuse to lean his way but his OWN MAN backs off as well. Now, when Gray gets the ball, the defender nearest the free throw line leans his way pretty much all the time leaving an open shooter available. Not only that but we are now playing FIVE ON FIVE on that end of the court. With the exception of Gordon every now and then, we really don't have a guard who can blow past his man and create shots for the others. Starting the play in the middle of a SHOOTING BIG MANS' hands plays to our strengths much better. Deng and Nocioni create shots better than any of our guards and that doesn't fare well for the assist category, which I feel to be one of the more important stats in the game. Wallace does so many good things on the defensive end that don't show up in the box, it's hard to discount the man, but we don't have the guards Detroit has and his role actually hurts our squad more than helps. In the infamous words of Lovie, we should "play the guys who give us the best chance to win". The playing time will give Gray a chance to lose a little body fat, enhance his game and open up some much needed relaxed shots.

WTSW - you are right. Cartwrigt REMAINS the best center we ever had, and I will throw in Luke Longley especially before he got hurt. And Bill Wennington was a goodie. I used to love the fact that Bill loved to DUNK and that warmed my heart.

Tim Little you are also right Ben Wallace fed off Rasheed. Together they make the prototype center. They would never admit it, but they miss him as well.

Some great posts on this subject. Thanks, everyone.

We saw a rooky journyman like Gray...." (frank)

ummm....oxymoron alert!!

Rooky Journyman (nice spelling..by the way..makes me proud).

but....did you think about this when you wrote it?

isnt a journyman...someone who spends his entire career floating from team to team playing miniml but productive minutes?

I pray he is not just another Journyman...cause...this kid could be the missing link!!!!

how about....'ever since Artis Gilmore?'

Roman responds: Don't forget Mr. Elbows Cartwright.

wtsw I don't think anyone is trying to say that starting Gray is going to suddenly make The Bulls a championship team here. What the concensus is though I believe is that Wallace isn't getting them there and Gray does at least give them some inside offensive threat. By the way wasn't Luc Longley a slow footed white guy that didn't jump well yet he started for for the Bulls through 3 championships and to be quite honest Gray plays more like Luc than Cartwright and I was a big fan of Luc's. The Bulls are pretty much stuck with Wallace and his contract but that doesn't mean he has to start every game. There have been a few people that have commented on the overload of forwards on the Bulls and just how to get them all playing time. For starters move Deng to the 2 spot with Tyrus and Noce at forward and Gray in the middle. That not only gives you a bigger 2 guard on the defensive end but also gives you 4 potential shot blockers on the floor and 4 players that can take the ball to the rim and still spread the floor with potential 3 point shooters in Hinrich, Noce and Deng on occasion. Gordon along with Duhon, Smith, Noah and Wallace would be a formidable second unit with Sefalosha filling in when needed.

One more thing....getting rid of Eddy Curry didn't bother me because he never did and never will play defense and has never been much of a rebounder. I do think they gave up on Chandler a little too soon but with Tyrus starting to hit the mid-range jumper more consistantly he poses more of an all around threat than Chandler with the same shot blocking and rebounding ability.

Roman responds: Agreed. Curry never will get any better. He'll never work hard on defense or rebounding. There even was talk he would be benched on a horrible Knicks team.

"He's not the offensive force of Eddy Curry, but he plays better defense and rebounds much better."

Everyone agrees with the defense and rebounding part of that statement Romo. But "offensive force"? Since when is 14.6 pts per game a "force"?

Somehow the NY media created this notion that Curry had become this force despite the fact that his best year with NY was averaging about 3 pts more than his best year with the Bulls. My opinion of Curry is no different than when I saw that little Schaumburg team beat Curry's team in the HS finals. No desire, no heart (no pun intended) just pass me the ball so I can shoot.

Roman responds: His ppg is down this season, but this guy is a scorer. Unbelievably agile and athletic around the basket. I'm glad you weren't quipping about his heart. Eddy's a really nice guy and I'm glad he hasn't had any other heart episode.

I am still not ready to say Eddy is a total bust. He can score and really...isnt that all we need right now? I think Eddy will wake up and find it one day or play himself out of the league, but that's his problem.

I do know this...I am tired of trying to find players to fit the coach. That is INSANE.

I think it was Eddie and Tyson who made the perfect center if combined. Hopefully, AG will give us a little of both. O and D.

They need to figure it out and start Gellin though fast!!! season is a 1/4 over.

Besides the ppg Roman, can a guy like Curry with that many turnovers truly be an "offensive force"?

Roman responds: I don't watch enough Knicks games to know how they're using him, but with gunners like Steph and Jamal on his team, is Curry getting enough touches? The guy led the league in field-goal percentage one season.

I didnt like losing Curry, but Gray Matters!!! and could make me forget all about him....:)

Pax missed his window of opportunity this past summer. His players had their highest value then. It's slipping now, for all of them except maybe Nocioni, who would be the one guy I'd hesitate to trade (because he seems to understand the whole "sense of urgency" mindset that's required to be successful in the NBA). But if the right deal came along...

I'm just saying we shouldn't be hyperventilating about a 2nd-rounder who has strung together a couple of good games at this point. Other guys have had a few good games at the 5 for the Bulls. Brad Miller looked good back in the day. Chris Ansty even had a few nice games. You don't hear anyone pining for him, though. Mike Smrek, anyone? Jawaan Oldham? Don't make me whip out Granville Waiters...

Gray might be a usable part, but he's not the legit post-up threat the Bulls need to get over the hump. The Bulls absolutely need someone on the floor who can create his own shot. Position doesn't matter - Adrian Dantley was the Championship Pistons' low-post guy, and he was barely 6'4". The Bulls need a guy who is tough to guard, has a hard shot to block, and possesses the attitude that he can and will score on anyone, period. Until they get that player they won't be a championsip-caliber team. This past offseason the team made a lot of noise about wanting to contend for a title THIS YEAR. If they really meant that then it's obvious at this point in the season that they either need to make some changes ASAP or concede that a championship wasn't a realistic goal this season. Teams just don't come from poor start with a losing record to an NBA championship in the same year, especially if they have no superstar players.

Tim - Luc was lucky to have played on a team with players who demanded that he try hard. Otherwise, left to his own devices he was an indifferent NBA player. He never cared much about basketball. It was just something he did because his body type was right. Johnny "Red" Kerr has talked about Luc in this way. Apparently Luc and Phil Jackson are still very close friends. I think Phil likes Luc because he's intelligent and doesn't care to talk much about basketball. Gray might be somewhat similar to Luc, but Luc was a good 2 inches taller and 30 lbs. heavier. That means quite a bit in the NBA in terms of positioning and shot-blocking. Luc was a decent enough defender because of his size. Someone like Andrew Bynum wouldn't have been able to shoot right over him (but he still could have gone around). Gray can't stop a Bynum-type from out-jumping him, nor can he stay with him quickness-wise (let alone Stoudamire, Howard, Rasheed, Bosh, etc.). Longley wasn't an all-star, but he was a usable starter who had enough size and skill to post-up successfully, and also play some solid D. I'd take him over Aaron Gray any day of the week, but certainly not because of his heart or gamesmanship. A young Luc Longley wouldn't solve the current Bulls' problem.

OK, I agree with the idea that Gray clearly deserves some extra time on the court, however I am not about to jump on the Gray bandwagon after he just had his best career game. Lets remember that he is a second round pick for a reason. If you were to look over the last 10 years, there would only be a handful of 2nd rounders that are actually good/great players and unfortunately I don't think Gray is the answer. He was a solid player at Pitt and I think thats what he will be in the pro's. But by no means is this guy an