Whatever he does, just leave Tyrus Thomas in the game. Thomas really is a special player and I think the more playing time the better. Other than that, it's hard to say where a change - short of a trade - in the starting lineup would make a big difference.
I do like the idea of getting an Adrian Griffin in there or Thomas Gardner just to provide some energy off the bench.
But now is no time to panic. The Bulls haven't become suddenly untalented, so I still think they'll turn it around.
Having said that, we may have overrated them and underrated the rest of the East.
Gordon has always been at least as effective, if not more effective as a bench guy. Also, with Kirk and Gordon starting, our back court gives up alot of size.
I would star PG-Kirk, SG-Deng, SF-Noc, PF-Thomas, and for now C-Joe Smith.
I would rest Ben Wallace for a week or two so we know for sure, is lack of production ankle injury related or not. Once back helathy and producing (if that happens) I would put him back at starting C.
Ben Gordon needs to be are 6man off the bench, putting deng at the 2 and tyrus at the 3 alongside ben wallace and joakim noah.
How about a new coach who can positively motivate his players and get them to play to their fullest potential, like Phil Jackson did? I say we need a new coach, not a line up change. This new coach needs to have championship winning experience, which is why I would like to see Larry Brown coaching the Bulls.
Trade for Kobe.....DaBulls got no shot against Boston without him
and don't trade away Tyrus Thomas
There's your "Michael and Scottie"
that's my best answer
PG-Hinrich (shoot out of his slump + we need his energy); SG-Deng (he needs in-game development of his post skills); SF-Tyrus Thomas (ditto for his in-game development); PF-Nocioni (need this guy's energy throughout the game not just from the bench); C-Aaron Gray (he might be Purdue-ish but at least he CAN BE AN OFFENSIVE OPTION); bench - Gordon; Smith; Duhon; Wallace; Griffin; Sefolosha; Gardner...in that order.
The season is still young so I think changes at this point shouldn't be too drastic. I would start Joe Smith ahead of Tyrus Thomas, just to have a guy that knows the game of basketball on the floor to began games. Truth be told they can use another guard that can provide scoring off the bench. I think Pax should look to use Thabo as trade bait, and see what his "potential" is worth on the open market.I honestly would love to see McCants in a Bulls uniform.
How about playing the rookie Gray at center because Ben Wallace is about as useful as Cedric Benson at this point. What a huge waste of money.
Other teams simply got better in the east in a heartbeat! Its not that hard to improve when you realize you have problems. Bulls have finally been exposed. Deng is good but not great. He is still the same player from last year. THE ONLY player we have that has shown IMPROVEMENT is Tyrus Thomas. Everyone else is the same. Fortunately for the Bulls they have added Joe Smith who is a scorer. Sadly they have lost Ben Wallace is was a great defender and rebounder. Bulls have to turn to their strength - which is the bench led by Noah, Sefaloosha and Gray. They have to get those post players involved in the offense. I am affraid the only thing that will change this team is....change. A trade needs to be made to set the tone. I would move Kirk and Gordon. We need a playmaker. That would losen the constipated - 3pt shooting offense. Sometimes you just gotta shake things up. Bulls are going to play better, but they are never going to be great. This bunch is not special.
Gordon needs to come off the bench and earn the sixth man award again. He's a better shot of adrenaline off the bench. Start Hinrich, Deng, Noce, Thomas, and Wallace. Having bench of Gordon, Smith, Duhon, and Griffon is solid enough to secure the starters when they need a break.....although....somehow I feel the Bulls just screwed themselves for any possible Kobe trade due to their terrible start....Here's our team...hopefully we can live with it...
KOBE, KOBE, KOBE,
Trade Gordon, Wallace, and Hinrich for Kobe, please/period. Kobe and any other midget(Duhon) is a better backcourt(offense and defense)than the two midgets, three if you include Duhon that Skiles is in love with now.
If we can't make the Kobe trade, then Sefoloosha should start instead of Gordon, to give Hinrich a break on defense, so that he might actually have the energy to play offense. Sefoloosha is Skiles new Chandler/whipping boy. Trying Deng at the two and using both Thomas and Noah/Smith at the same is a great idea, as it creates more playing time for Nocioni too.
Sitting Wallace in lue of dumping him is also a good idea. Thomas and Noah can man the post against most teams in todays center less NBA. Save Wallace for the few remaining dinosaurs just like himself. Wouldn't we all love to have Chandler back instead of Wallace, because the Wallace signing was essentially a trade for Chandler.
Bambi Gordon is at best a sixth man, look at his body language, facial expressions and general demeanor, he reminds me of Cedric Benson, either stupid or on drugs. I am certain that Gordon falls in ball handling drills in the gym all by himself, that is if he even bothers to practise ball handling. He cannot guard anyone in the NBA period. The fact that he turned $50 million, and that he thinks that he is worth a max deal is reason enough to dump him, he is just another bum who does't care about anything but money and doesn't realize how lucky he is that he isn't flipping burgers, his most likely remaining skill set. I am not a Gordon fan, in case you haven't noticed.
We need to get bigger and more athletic, in the NBA size does matter. When gordon, hinrich and duhon are three of your top six you are in serious troulbe mismatch wise almost all the time. Skiles and Paxson seem to be in love with guys just like themselves, too small and to slow to play in the league without a Jordan or Shaq to feed off of.
Wallace needs to be sat down until his ankle is healed, Gordon needs to establish himself as the league'a sixth man again and with a starting line up of Hinrich, Deng,Tyrus,Smith and Gray the Bulls then have the inside presence everyone keeps saying they lack. With Noce and Noah coming off the bench to inject energy into a second unit and Gordon and Sefalosha coming off the bench to provide instant scoring from Gordon and perimeter defense from Sefalosha and when needed Duhon and Griffin to restore some order. For a point guard that holds the record for assists I have a hard time believing Skiles isn't thinking more about how to get the ball to the talented big men he has. Any combination of Tyrus, Noah and Smith or Tyrus, Gray and Smith or Noce, Noah and Smith or Gray, Tyrus and Noce or Smith, Tyrus and Noce could controll the paint at both ends fo the floor. In the Bulls only win so far Tyrus, Smith, Noce and Noah combined for 32 of the Bulls 47 rebounds and 44 of their 97 points and the Bulls won the battle of the boards and points in the paint. enough said????
Roman responds: Talented big men? Huh? When Skiles set that record, he had a talented big man. His name was Shaq.
If you just tell Deng to watch the game defensively, and hustle for loose balls(him, Lil Ben, Sefalosha). Deng looks tired, and Gordon is just a liability defensively--it's all about heart, man. Try playing d with some awareness on the court and stop playing d what looks like flat footed. Smith and TT need to be out there together, Noce...good shooter, erratic elsewhere.
Just my observation.
The Bulls are the same team that we've grown accustomed to watching for years. The differnce this year is other teams know that they have to compete when they play this team. Usually if that team is motivated it can beat this starless group. The team as it is are a great group of guys you'd robably wnat to share a meal with, but anyone of them should be available for trade.
I think Johns Paxson is a bit gun shy and will wait to see how this group performs before he explores other options. It saddens me as a long time fan that he allowed KG to be traded to the Celtics. Danny Ainge has went from the worst GM ever to a shrewed poker player to assemble a group, while old in the tooth, have provided excitement for the fan base. The Bulls need to start thinking big.
Sometimes organizations are too close to a situation sliding into groupthink, and may need others to provide a fresh view. Let me help the Bulls out:
The current lineup has its faults; they have peaked as players Kirk Hinrich is scrappy, can't shoot and can't finish, stop calling him a poor man's Steve Nash; Ben Gordon is a scorer who can't create his own shot because of lack of athelitic ability and height; Loul Deng is a hard worker who will give you 20 pts, 5 rebs and 2 assists (Scottie Pipeen dare I say); Tyrus Thomas has an upside but can't be counted on to be consistent this year we're seeing flashes; Ben Wallace is stealing money and may need to be moved, I don't think he's motivated and may need to play with a more veteran group.
The Bench is another issue Tybo Sefalousha can't shoot and lacks confidence to play at this level, Joakim and Gray are rooks trying to figure it out; Douhon is the bulls best PG and should be starting, too much of sports is based on pedigree; Gardner is worth a look to see what he can do he looked good in pre season they should see how he looks with the lights on.
Tim great post! I like it. They need to set Ben Gordon free. Detroit used to use Vinny Johnson like that and he was lethal. We have to stop asking this man to do what he can't do - and focus on what he can do and that is shoot and score.
What kills me about the Bulls is that they don't have a decent playmaker and Deng is not aggressive about being the goto guy. Tyrus is more likely to shoot on the block than he is. Now Deng can shoot on the block and he must be told to stop taking those long jumpshots and get to the rim or pass to someone else.
And you're right. Ben Wallace needs to sit until he can contribute because he is messing up chemistry.
Southside Fan - good post! Duhon IS the best PG on the team. A point guard is a playmaker and a lot of folks dont get it. Kirk is clogging up the guard spot because he is not a 1 or 2, but a scrappy defensive specialist. Outside of his D its no contest. Thabo is a big Kirk Hinrich who cant shoot.
One thing I disagree on - DENG is no Scottie. When he actually scores 20 consistently we can begin the discussion. GORDON is our highest pt. man. Its a reality we dont except. Deng SHOULD be averaging 25pts a game. But he is far from that. He is all potential which is in laymens terms = hype.
I hate to say it but the person at fault when you look at the state of the Bulls is Paxson. He reached too fast to make a championship run. His job when the team still had Chandler was simple, get a power forward that could score about 15 ppg and average about 7 rpg. He should've drafted and kept LaMarcus Aldridge, and let the team grow at it's own pace. But Paxson listened to the talking heads, signed a aging Wallace for far more than he was worth if you had him in his prime, gave away Chandler for nothing, traded for Tyrus Thomas, and a terrible move that had me screaming at the television when it happened...opting for Thabo over Ronnie Brewer.
Sorry Bulls fans but you can't make so many bad moves and not expect those moves to take a toll on the team. The Bulls had a chance to be special but now they're a team that needs to get the best of another team in a trade. When I think of a player that needs to be traded, no one comes to mind more that Ben Gordon. First, he's not big enough to play the 2, yet not quick enough to breakdown defenses. It's poison to keep a player like Gordon, and you factor in his desire to be grossly overpaid,(10 million per for Gordon is too much)and you have a player that has to be moved. Tell me what you think of this trade: Gordon, Gray to Portland for Frye, Jones and a unconditional 1st round pick. On the surface you might think the Blazers are getting the best of this deal, that's how you win trade deals by fleecing opposing GMs. This coming draft is going to be stacked with stars. Can anybody say O.J Mayo? ;-)
I think the Bulls are a middle of the pack team who had a nice run at the end of last year. Their energy has to get them to the playoffs because their talent as a whole is showing no improvement. Unless we come out of the woodwork like the 05' White Sox, or possibly the trade everyone is hoping for, I see a tragic freefall ahead.
The thing we do have going for us is the East will level off after the adrenaline drops and the 'Old Knees' take a beating with overplayed minutes.
Long season ahead, let's hope for a gut check real fast.
Skiles should beg for a pure shooter.
Other wise keep fishing the roster until he get a workable lineup.
Ben Wallace is useless with this team....i would like to have his agent.
As it is now this is a last place team that won`t make the playoffs.
Roman responds: I wouldn't give up on Ben just yet. Yes, he can't shoot, but he never shot and still has some hardware. He's obviously still affected from the sore ankle. I would bring him off the bench, but he's still valuable.
Maybe skiles should change the part in his hair. Southside fan has it right. The bulls are overmatched at every position but Deng's. Wallace, Gordon, Hinrich are more or less undersized or out of position. Starts with Gordon not being able to play the point or defend. So Hinrich has to cover for gordon by guarding the opponents shooting guard. So then Hinrich is overmatched trying to guard a bigger player. Plus he has to pull double duty as your defensive backcourt stopper and your point guard. This would be hard to do even for a really great player, which he is not. Even if Hinrich just had to play the point he'd be less than average at it. You can't out race nba players downcourt like in college which is Hinrich's favorite play. Then he just stands around and dribbles while the defenders all get set. Hinrich should really be a two guard but he's probably too small and too slow to really play that spot.
In the front court its the same thing. Wallace can't score, or shoot freethrows and his D and rebounding are subpar for a center. So the pressure for scoring shifts to the power forward where thomas and deng are then overmatched. If wallace wasn't overmatched then Thomas could develop normally and not be over pressured to compensate for wallaces shortcomings. Deng is a solid all round player, but on this bulls team that isn't good enough either, he has to be great to compensate for the other players.
Reminds me of all the experts critizing Jay Williams play at point guard when he was a rookie. The scrutiny was all on him because he was a highly touted, high draft pick and a talented player. But he was being expected to do the impossible, as a rookie he had the bulls coach Cartwright telling him to run the triangle offense with Crawford, Rose, Curry and Chandler. Good luck with that, but at the time it was seen as williams fault he wasn't getting it done at point guard.
Changing the bulls point guard isn't going to solve anything. I agree Duhon is probably the teams best pure point guard, but you still have to have someone to throw the ball to that can do something with it, preferably two real players. Deng is 22 now, he may turn into one of those type of players but you still need another one to go with him. Thomas is at least 2 or 3 years away. Maybe 4 or 5 years realistically, Jermaine O'neal sat on portlands bench for 4 years before he was ready to play.
I suppose the bulls can just wait.
It really is a bad day when we come across players that are not used or plain old miss used. To me watching the bulls has turned into a hellish experience due to the fact we have players who are clearly care nothing for the rest of the team and refuse to play team ball.
Just to let our players who are ment to be stars know I would go with a complete different line up. The main players will go to the bench and the bench players will become starters. Some may laugh but here is my starting line up...
Duhon at point guard.
Sefolosha at Shooting guard.
Khryapa at Small forward.
Noah at Power Forward.
Gray at Center.
I would have a second unit ready to go and they would come in as a straight 5 man change. 2nd team unit would be. Curry(PG), Gardner(SG), Nocioni(SF), Thomas(PF), Smith(C).
I would sit Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, and Wallace out of the game all together just to show them that the game is not all about them but rather a team sport.
This would only be for 2 games by then surely the players left out will have gotten the message.
Yes Roman, Skiles had Shaq when he registered his 30 assist game but what I am saying is he does have big men now that have talent (raw as it may be at present). Aaron Gray has good hands and a soft touch and can make free throws. Some have compared him with Will Perdue, I see him more like a Jeff Foster or Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Noah is like a pit bull as is Nocioni in the paint. Much has been said about how ugly Noah's shot is but I haven't seen any shot uglier than that of Shawn Marion. Deng is finally working on a post up game and so is Tyrus. My whole point here Roman is that Skiles continues to employ the drive and kick offense as the teams mainstay. How many times have we seen the ball go down in the post and kicked back out and never re-posted? In their one W against Detroit there was more passes to cutters to the basket from the post than in the other 5 games. The result was not only winning the points in the paint battle but 28 assists on 39 FGM. 10 more assists than the average of the other five games. So why does Skiles comtinue to rely so heavily on the perimeter game?
Roman responds: Good point about Gray. I'd like to see more of him.
HEY HITMAN...DO I GET A WRITERS CREDIT FOR YOUR POST?
(since this is almost word for word what I posted last week)
Trade for Kobe.....DaBulls got no shot against Boston without him
and don't trade away Tyrus Thomas
There's your "Michael and Scottie"
that's my best answer
Posted by: Hitman | November 12, 2007 05:38 PM
======
Never Trade Tyrus Thomas, anyone else can go. Bring in Kobe or Elton or someone...I love our core as much as anyone, but they are playing like they lost their souls in a violin off!!!
Posted by: bculz | November 11, 2007 10:50 PM
Ben Gordon may be the basketball equivalent of Rex Grossman. I'm a fan of both by the way. Both have talent, both show that talent in spurts, both can be completely ineffective if off their game, and both may be too short to take the next step. If Ben was 6'5 instead of 6'2 then maybe he wouldn't be so easy to shut down. With that being said, I think the Bulls are in trouble, and sadly, I have to blame it almost exclusively on Ben Wallace. I know he's the four-time defensive POY, but the fact is he's short, old, and the biggest offensive liability in the league. There's about 15 centers in the league I'd take before him, at least. We need to roll with Kirk, Luol, Noc, Ty, and Noah as our starting lineup. At least Noah is 6'11 and as energetic as humanly possible. I'm tired of our 6'8 overachiever center. I don't care how tall he is with the afro. I wish I didn't have that opinion because I'm a fan of Big Ben's, but he's just terrible.
Skiles needs to bite the bullet and accept that Wallace was a waste of money. It's a sunk cost now.
Start Joe Smith instead of Wallace. I don't care how good Wallace is at defense/rebounding. He's an NBA player that refuses to shoot an open 10 foot jump-shot. Case closed.
I like the idea of Gordon coming off the bench.
I don't know why, but I'm sure if you look at his stats statistically he shoots better when he's not starting. Maybe he has time to survey the game tempo, or maybe he gets upset over not starting, has less fatigue, etc. Who knows. Bottom line is, I want to see this lineup...
Hinrich,
Duhon,
Smith,
Thomas,
Wallace
I worry about scoring, but the way the team has been going, can it get any worse?
Plus you should have plenty of offensive firepower coming off the bench with Nocioni and Gordon not to mention "Mr Hustle-Energy" himself in Joakim Noah. which reminds me, don't be afraid to play Noah more Skiles! Good things happen when he's on the floor.
lol....scary....but..that's parallel thinking, culzie....hacks/thieves are a pet peeve of mine...didn't see your post
I want Kobe in Chicago and agreed with Roman about Tyrus
Honestly, Skiles can shuffle the line up till he's blue in the face.....We won't catch up to Boston without Kobe ....but most importantly...doing it soon so team chemistry is there for the playoffs
Hopefully, the beat down Phoenix gives us tomorrow creates some urgency on getting that trade done
I think we need to start a little underground "Play Gray" Movement!
Then..when he becomes the Man, we can all go sit in one section and where shades of Grey and we can can call ourselves....
"THE GRAY AREA"
Roman responds: Gray matters.
Clint Clack - I like your comparison. All of Chicago Teams are right on the cusp of greatness.
Band Headbands again!
Roman responds: Like it.
RE: "Much has been said about how ugly Noah's shot is but I haven't seen any shot uglier than that of Shawn Marion".
Noah will NEVER shoot the ball like Marion. Marion's shot may not look "pretty". But he has good backspin and follow-through. Noah has a two-handed push shot. A far cry from Shawn Marion's shot
Marion is a career 48% FG shooter. He's a career 34% 3pt shooter. He's 10-29 for 3's this year. That's only five fewer 3's than Ben Gordon. This year he's shooting at 51% FG and an average of 17pts per game.
Please don't even try to suggest that if Noah "worked" on his shot,he can be Marion. Noah has a hard time making an open shot from 10 ft. Based on his technique, he'll never have much of a shot. Personally, I never thought he was a lottery pick. The NBA is about being able to have scorers at all 5 positions. Watch the Suns play. Any one of their top 7 players is capable of putting up 30 pts on any given night.
PLAY GRAY
GRAY MATTERS
A GRAY AREA
TOUCH OF GRAY...??
Kevin I did not mean to suggest that if Noah worked on his shot he would be another Shawn Marion, I was simply stating an opinion on Marion having the ugliest shot in the NBA. What I did say however is that he is a pit bull in the paint. Take a look at his stats and you find that he has played half the minutes that Wallace has played yet his RPG, APG and BPG are almost identical and Noah's SPG is slightly higher and his FT% is 43 points higher than Wallace's. Also where Noah is needed is not shooting 10 foot jump shots, he's needed on the low post going to the hoop. Thomas, Deng,Nocioni, Smith and even Gray can make the 10 footers. Noah is more likely to be a Ben Wallace with scoring ability than a Shawn Marion.
.....Gray's Anatomy
Oh, and don't worry - I know the TV show spells it with an "e." I spelled it with an "a" for effect.
Grays....lake?
Im surprised no one caught my "BAND" headbands....fo pa!
phewww...
let me catch my own mistake..
Ban Headbands!
CASTLE GRAY'SKULL!!
I think we have a winner!
Astrogenas?
OMG!!!!! It's "faux pas" - you had to have done that on purpose. You do this to annoy me, right? Well, it's working!!!!!
Major Gray's Chutney
Skiles should change his Rogain for Propecia!
I did...do it on purpose...but...i still may have spelled it wrong....now that i looked at the way you spelled it.
Gray Pooh Pon?