Vick pleads guilty

The Leonard Little thing still puzzles me - Tagliabue was a lawyer no less and he brushed it off.
Now there's a new sheriff - Vick won't even start to serve till the end of the 2007 season. He will still be there for the 2008 season, and THEN THE NFL SUSPENSTION WILL KICK IN. I predict 2 years which could mean he won't be available to play till 2011...forget about his baggage - he would be 31 I think; the quickness gone, but still with the erratic arm which is not a good combo. He's got the CFL written all over him.

he gone...

Why are you asking for comments Roman when yours hit the nail on the head? All anyone will do is reword what you said and make this blog 30 entries long before dinner. Fact of the matter is: as a black man it is somewhat embarrassing that this happened. Black people will always rally around a black man even one like O.J. who didn't have anything to do with black people, but Al his driving buddy, after he made it big. As long as the media and the mainstream seem to celebrate when a black man fails you will see black people who don't even know who Michael Vick is rally around him.

As long as the world has Al Davis, anything's possible. Sad thing is his brother showed it's in the blood. This new commish is going to use this as his blockbuster example, rightfully so. The real shame is it's taken somebody to kill dogs to really shake things up when in actuality some players may have gotten away with 'murder' in the past. Money IS the root of all evil, because sport cannot dominate our priorities like that, can it?

Vick's career is being martyred for the cause. I am certain he did not believe dogfighting to be as dispicable as many are claiming it to be. Dick Cheyne shot a MAN - while HUNTING. And nobody cares AT ALL. Activists had the perfect man to come after, but he beat all charges because Americans as a whole don't care about that guy he shot, or those animals. But you give them a rich brotha with some corn rolls - and oh my... I am appauled with that. I am appauled with how Scooter Libby committed the holy grail crime of the constitution (treason) and he is out freeeee. No protests, no DISGUST, nothing. The fact that folks are even discussing ending his CAREER over fighting dogs has me completely disappointed. But that is the America WE KNOW. The one we know all to well. And folks wonder why we cheered OJ? We'll take ANYTHING we can get! And I mean ANYTHING!

Roman responds: Cheney didn't shoot the guy on purpose.

He's going to jail, no doubt. Being a first time offender, he'll probably get a light sentence. I think he's a brother that didn't know how to shake the streets and it caught up with him. Nonetheless, the level of inner cruelty it takes to kill something or someone is astounding. If it's true that he was present during the execution and participated in some of these acts, then he's no better than the common sociopath that preys on people. Notice, I said if. Where I as a black man disconnect from straight outrage with Vick is when I consider his so called "friends". They have been used by the federal government to knock Vick down, and although he pleaded guilty, those two or three people get more of my anger than Michael Vick any day of the week. I think you'll find that most Blacks feel the same way. I hate to say this, but I'd be surprised if any of them lived to tell the story. Knowing some street guys, the worst thing next to a child molester is a snitch. How does this correlate to Leonard Little? Well, PETA and all those pet loving government officials weren't involved in his prosecution. I'm sure if you polled a good majority of them, you'd find that a great deal of them have had a little too much to drink then jumped behind the wheel of a car.

Took only 2 responses to play the race card...I would have guessed 10-12

This entire racial angle is very telling. Shouldn't we all be repulsed, angered, shocked, embarrassed based on what he did - NOT based on his skin color?

Blame it on racism (which still exists) if you want, but inserting this angle into EACH AND EVERY Romo subject (the Dick Cheney hunting incident???) is tiresome and detracts from legitimate issues that exist out there.

And furthermore, then I'm done for now.......

Vick is a victim of a racially biased system whether we want to believe it or not. His guilt aside, they put so much pressure on him that he had to fold. What's worse is that they used other brother's to do it and they fell into the trap. I'm a student of history so I'll relate the reason for my anger so that maybe some of you will understand it more...............

During the height of slave trading back in the 1600's. Europeans would go to Africa to get slaves to work in the fields. They didn't trap all of them in the bushes of Africa as some would suggest. They would go to the tribal leaders, get one to flip in exchange for a certain amount of slaves. In return, he would get food, materials, gun powder etc. The turncoat would then create a situation in which the slaves in question would get caught away from the safety of the tribe and then he/she would be taken into captivity. In some cases, they would just take the entire village by force.

Synchronize that with Vick's case. The government offered these guys lesser sentences in order to get to Vick. Is he guilty, yes. Of what, we don't know just yet. What we do know is that a lot of people turned their backs on him in order to save their own asses. Lack of trustworthiness and character in someone makes them less than the scum of the Earth in my eyes.

Roman responds: Ernest, getting people to roll over is hardly exclusive to blacks. Happens every day to whites, too. And you can't put Vick's guilt aside. He is a victim of his own criminality. Now, that's not saying the system isn't biased. It's just that I don't think it helps your argument when you use that logic with every case.

I think Vick should be able to play again. Giving certain circumstances play out. Vick would have to serve his term in jail, join an animal rights organization, and donates millions to animal rights charities. Considering the maximum he'll get is a little over a year in jail, once he gets out, having him just sit at home, contemplating doing who knows what is worse then him acting as a positive influence on these barbaric rituals. If Vick says no, and that he believes he doesn't have to donate anything, or he says that he doesn't have to be active in any charities, then tough. Let him rot at home watching old ESPN highlights. Can you imagine the positive impact his millions would have on a animal rights organizations? He would saves hundreds if not thousands of dogs.

Ernest - I hope for you own sake, you're done. That was the biggest pile of cr@p I've read in some time. Are black people immune to breaking the law, being guilty of anything? Did Vick say to himself, "you know, I realize torturing these dogs may not be good, but I can only think about my ancestors who came here against their will. I can only think of Ernest's logic about tribal leaders so that must make be above the law".

There are bad black people, white, hispanic, etc. Probably 2-5% of each, and we hear about that percent disproportionally.

Come on Vick apologists - you can do it. Say it...."I WAS WRONG".

"Vick's career is being martyred for the cause. I am certain he did not believe dogfighting to be as dispicable as many are claiming it to be."

I'm also sure there are many pedophiles out there that don't think their crimes are as dispicable as many people, AND THE LAW, claim they are.

"Dick Cheyne shot a MAN - while HUNTING. And nobody cares AT ALL."

Please read what you wrote: Chaney shot a MAN - while HUNTING. Sounds like an accident caused by carelessness. Vick paid people to breed and fight dogs to KILL ONE ANOTHER, let these people USE HIS PROPERTY TO DO SO, and FINANCED THEIR ENTIRE OPERATION. Yeah, I happen to see INTENT being present here. If you can't tell the difference between an accident on a hunting trip and an on-going criminal enterprise, then God help you.

Ernest, are you saying that Vick's co-defendants shouldn't have offered testimony against him? They should have done their time in stone silence? That is essentially what you are advocating. And if that was done, and by chance Vick was never prosecuted, do you really think justice was served?

God help us all.

Boy, sure didn't take long for someone (Mr. Frazier) to prophesize your words. Roman. Problem is, Ernie my man, you don't speak for most African Americans. You sound more like a close friend of Calabrese Sr. than a spokesperson for the Black community. Nobody, regardless of creed or color, should take responsibilty for another adults actions. If (and notice I said if) I'm correct, Vick pleaded guilty to all counts. Come to think about it, if you really feel the worst thing next to a 'child molester' is a 'snitch', you shouldn't be talkin' for anybody but yourself, instead of belittling what other people may ACTUALLY be thinking.

Roman, kudos to you for saying what the majority of "People" feel towards this heinieous crime. I agree that you can not put Vick's guilt aside, and Carl should stop using the excuse of "they usued other brother's to do it". Wow, so imagine what else went on that we are unaware of! You did the crime, so pay.
Quoting from Mariotti, .."Sorry, no mercy should be attached to any circumstance involving the Vick case, including his plea bargain Monday. If Goodell found reason to suspend Adam (Pacman) Jones for the 2007 season without a conviction, he should remain consistent in enforcing his conduct policy and use Vick's guilty plea to remove him from the league permanently." CAN I GET A AMEN?

Roman, kudos to you for saying what the majority of "People" feel towards this heinieous crime. I agree that you can not put Vick's guilt aside, and Carl should stop using the excuse of "they usued other brother's to do it". Wow, so imagine what else went on that we are unaware of! You did the crime, so pay.
Quoting from Mariotti, .."Sorry, no mercy should be attached to any circumstance involving the Vick case, including his plea bargain Monday. If Goodell found reason to suspend Adam (Pacman) Jones for the 2007 season without a conviction, he should remain consistent in enforcing his conduct policy and use Vick's guilty plea to remove him from the league permanently." CAN I GET A AMEN?

I'm sure momma Vick is really proud to have sons like Michael and Marcus.

William, I agree with you...Roman hit the nail on the head. I don't have much to add to what he said. I do have a question for you though or really any of the black people on the blog. I understand why the black community feels the need to rally around young black men in trouble based on past inequities in the justice system, but don't you think this is bad for the black community in the long run? If young men living "thug" lifestyles feel they will always have acceptance and support in the black community no matter what they do, don't you think this allows them to more easily maintain that lifestyle? I know one of the things that kept me out of trouble as a youth was fearing the backlash from my family/social circle when I screwed up. Doesn't it seem like this support the black man no matter what (how scary was Keith's post?) is creating a long term problem while trying to solve a short term one since, true or false, it gives the black community the appearance of having very low standards of conduct.

Vick and his two buddies hanged eight dogs from trees in his backyard. After writhing and screaming, five eventually choked to death while Vick watched, presumably amused. Three didn't die. They took the three dogs and, one by one, forced their heads under water in a five-gallon bucket until they drowned. All for fun and profit. This is a sick, perverse, evil individual who doesn’t belong in a decent society. Let’s make a difference. Write a letter to NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell at the NFL NYC office (NFL 280 Park Avenue, NY, NY 10017) calling for a lifetime ban from the NFL. Write a letter to Hon. Henry E. Hudson, United States District Court, Eastern Virginia, (1000 E. Main St., Suite 305, Richmond, VA 23219-3525) calling for the maximum penalty. This issue cuts to the core of our humanity. Working together, we can help ensure that Vick is removed from society for as long as possible and not allowed the privilege of ever playing the NFL again. He deserves nothing less.

Agreed Little should have gotten a much stiffer sentence and under today's less tolerant appoach to DUI he would have been dealt with more severely. But consider that he did not get behind the wheel with the intention of running into another vehicle and killing the occupant. On the other hand what Vick did was totally intentional and illegal and his methods of putting dogs down were gruesome and inhumane.
As far as Vick's so-called friends rolling over on him goes, that's an every day fact of life regardless of race, the first one to talk gets the deal.
WRD I believe you're right about some black people that don't even know who Michael Vick is rallying behind him just because he's black and that is truely a shame. When the OJ incident first became public I was hoping he didn't do it(btw I'm not black) but as the trial went on and later after reading Christopher Darden's book on the trial I believe he did do it. On the other hand I also watched the trial of Carolina Panther's receiver Ray Caruth and thought the defense presented enough evidence to create a resonable doubt yet he was convicted and is serving a life sentence. His conviction I believe was a result of fall out from the OJ trial.
Bottom line is I don't care if Michael Vick is black, white, yellow, red or martian green, he admitted his guilt and should be sentenced accordingly. As far as should he be allowed to play in the NFL again? I wouldn't want him on my team if I was an owner or a player but umless he is banned for life I am sure there is an owner out there that will only consider his talent and not his charachter.

Earnest...are you saying that Rolling over on Vick and lack of trustworthyness supercedes the actual CRIME?

Should they just have kept mouth shut, gone to jail and did time Like Anderson did for Barry?

Using your logic, then...Anderson is at the TOP OF YOUR LIST of good people?

You must also idealize Stand Up guys in the Mafia, who do time and dont snitch, you must also like Terrorists who refuse to give up info on their terrorist brothers because they will break the code of silence.

How freakin wacked out is that kind of thinking!!!

Roman is right...using the same argument for every case weakens your overall argument.

Choose your battles wisely!

Roman responds: Ernest, getting people to roll over is hardly exclusive to blacks. Happens every day to whites, too. And you can't put Vick's guilt aside. He is a victim of his own criminality. Now, that's not saying the system isn't biased. It's just that I don't think it helps your argument when you use that logic with every case.

I'm not in anyway dismissing his guilt. He obviously has no excuse at all. I am the first to tell you that he deserves jail time for this crime because it is a felony. I'm only explaining the part that upsets me the most. And yes, the system bias is upsetting but I'm immune to it, kind of like most of the mainstream is to athletes involved in strip club incidents, domestic violence episodes and baby mama drama. I'm only waiting to see what he cops the plea for. If he admits to killing those dogs in the manner in which it has been alleged, then he needs more than just jail time. Max security prisons bring out the darker sides of most personalities. I've had a couple family members incarcerated that had promising lives and you can see the difference in them. The only saving grace for Vick is that he will probably go to some minimum security prison like the one that housed Pete Rose and Rostenkowski, come out, make a few conciliatory speeches and resume living with his millions. He saved a lot of money by pleading out. However, if he cops to the more heinous charges, he should not be spared a full sentence replete with max security surroundings. I stay on my "system and media bias" soapbox, but I'm a realist by nature.

Leonard Little and Mike Vick are night and day...Little made a mistake, and although someone lost their life, and I agree he should never have played another down in the NFL...it was still a mistake and not deliberate...Like Vick...Mike Vick "deliberately" tortured and killed dogs for fun and profits....for years

Mike Vick will never play another down of football for the NFL...he willingly and "happily" tortured and killed animals for profit, ran a gambling ring, and used his NFL money to do it...Case closed..Lifetime Ban

And don't be surprised if the Judge gives him the full 5 years...he won't do them all, but that's what he easily deserves....Well, honestly, he deserves worse....if those racketeering charges would have been levied upon him, all of his assets and cash would have been seized...facing another 20-ish years...so really, whatever time he gets is considered lucky..I say the Judge gives him the full 5 years..and he does around 2-3 of it....

And Never plays another down in the NFL....and if anybody wants to get rid of their Vick garbage...my Dogs could use some chew toys

Roman responds: I love the line: "although someone lost their life." As if it's almost a shoulder shrug. Yes, someone died. People do long prison stretches all the time for "accidents."

Say to this what I said about Tank Johnson: of course the system is biased against Black men. Everyone knows that...effin' Vick knew that. And he should have known better before getting involved in something that illegal. I'm not going to examine the morality of his actions; in fact, I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flak for this, but it's not like Vick is a cubicle mouse like me--he's played a violent sport for most of his life. Sure, killing dogs is worse than exploiting players for a few years' worth of sports entertainment--but the parallels are there, and the gap between the two, while still considerable, is nonetheless smaller than people think.

I'm still glad this didn't go to trial. Vick has already embarrassed us enough. Should he play again? Looking at it from an objective perspective--I don't see why not. Even people convicted of crimes have the right to work once they've served their time. The better question is "should he complain if no one's willing to sign him," the answer to which is a resounding "NO."

Roman responds: He'll be signed, and I don't think Raider nation will be that upset, depending on how Russell pans out.

In reading these comments I find myself shaking my head. This isn't about Black or White. This is about a man who has lied over and over again and is now only beginning to tell some of the truth because he was forced to. I don't consider the other individuals involved to be "snitches" I consider them to be just as bad as Vick...no moral compass...and only interested in saving their own butts.

Dogfighting isn't just about dogs. It's a fact that it's about drugs, gambling and violence. It looks as if Vick participated in all of this including the torture of several dogs. It is often said that people with a tendency for violence often hurt animals first. Well, at this point we have no idea what this man is now capable of. This man tortured, drowned and beat dogs to death. At least that's what the counterparts are now saying. Are any of those actions right for a White or Black Man?? No, this is about a human being who has done wrong and needs to be punished by the legal system as well as the NFL..period. You don't have to be a dog lover to recognize right from wrong.

I believe if justice were truly initiated, Michael Vick would be hung, drowned, electrocuted, slammed to the ground and ripped apart by other animals until he died. And I would be the first to sentence him.

This is amazing...Killing a dog is now all of a sudden one of the worst crimes on the books. I'm not here to support Michael Vick because this guy has to be one of the dumbest people on earth to be involved in something like this but to sentence someone to over five years for this is absurd. Murderers, rapists and child molesters get less time in some instances. I've seen priests rape kids and get less media attention and protests. I like dogs but there not human beings. Ray Lewis was accused of killing two people and Leonard Little actually did take a life and that didnt get near as much attention. Michael Vick should do jail time for doing this stupid act but just let up with equating dogs over human beings.

Roman responds: The reason Vick's getting attention is because he's the highest-paid player in the NFL and the highest-profile athlete to be headed to jail in his prime.

Roman responds: I love the line: "although someone lost their life." As if it's almost a shoulder shrug. Yes, someone died. People do long prison stretches all the time for "accidents."

I never said he (Little) shouldn't have gone to prison...and I said he should have been banned from the NFL....but you cannot compare something that is involuntary and a mistake to something that not only is voluntary but reprehensible, barbaric, and torturous in nature...it was done with a sinister thug-like smile...Contrition my ....

I've heard that word thrown around like they made it up lately...The only thing Vick will ever be sorry for is getting caught....he should feel lucky racketeering charges didn't hit him...then his money would be gone...and everything he owns...

and sorry for 'shrugin off' a death....the more you see, the less your impressed by 'em....I feel bad for that lady's family...nothing you can do for her, though....still can't parlay what Little did to what Vick did.....Vick's was twice as bad in my opinion

Roman responds: I understand your point, but trying telling that to the family of Little's victim.

He should go to jail for a long time if I did what he did there'd be no discussion. He's a monster if you can brutally kill an animal you can likely kill a person too and phsycopaths need to be off the streets. He should never play football again he wasn't all that good anyway ran more than he threw he's no steve young.
Anyone that would rally behind him black or white shows the ignorance that brought him to this point hopefully they wake up and realize whats wrong is wrong plus if he was never caught he'd never had apologized for it it's all an act. Vick kharma will get you if i was in charge he'd been killed like those animals. If any convicts read this and hes in your prison shank him for me

Keith the Lifetime Southsider should get a clue. Vick's career is not being martyred for a cause. Nothing is being martyred here. HE is being punished (and rightfully so) because HE made a terrible lifestyle choice and HE got caught. It's not black and white issue; it's a right and terribly wrong issue. If Peyton Manning had done the same thing, people would be just as outraged. If was some random dude on the street, regardless of race, religion on ethnicity, YOU would think the same thing.

Just as disgusting as dogfighting in general was Vick's insistence of innocence when he was the ringleader of the whole deal. He owned the property. He printed the T-shirts. He bankrolled the breeding etc. and he pulled the trigger/tied the noose/turned on the juice to kill HIS OWN DOGS. I don't know where the gene comes from that makes a person suddenly think it's OK to engage in this behavior, but I sure hope it's recessive.

Regardless of how long he serves he should be banned for life from the NFL, not only because of what he did but because it would be bad business. Not that the league really needs the extra pocket change that it gets when 60,000 people pay $80 per ticket and drink $10 beers, but if Vick is allowed back in the league the stands would empty faster than you can blink and the protests at the stadiums he visits would be large, loud and racous.

Worst of all to me is that he doesn't at all look remorseful. He says he is, but he looks as if he knows he's paying lip service to the masses, telling them what they want to hear. If anything, instead of a fine the judge should mandate that he set up, pay for and oversee animal shelters throughout the country. I think that's called poetic justice.

SCREW THIS LIBERAL SLANTED POST. IM SICK OF SEEING THE MOST RIDCULOUS POSTS GET AIR TIME AND MINE GET CUT OUT.

I NEED TO GO SELL A HOUSE.

PS. I think Earnest Frazier and Wiliam R Donald are the same person!!!!!

Roman responds: Culzie, you get more stuff posted than anyone. Quit your whining. And I thought the housing market was dead. Good for you if you can still close the deal. I may be ready to sell, do you have a license for Illinois?

I'm still not sure that Vick is guilty of all the charges he will plead guilty to. He and the co-defendants may be the only ones to ever know. In the movie "A Few Good Men," the defendents were innocent, but their lawyer was pushing for them to take the plea bargain instead of going to trial. If found guilty in a court of law, the punishment would have been more severe. In the movie, those two Marines opted to risk being found guilty through a trial. Vick may have chosen to take the plea bargain because has a lot more to lose if found guilty through trial.

No one can dispute that he is responsible for whatever happened on his property, whether or not he knew of what was going on. If two parents go out of town, leaving their teenage children at home and they have a party, the parents are responsible. Vick is responsible for the actions of his guests on his property.

If indeed Vick knew about what was going on, or participateed in the dog fighting ring, then he definitely deserves prison time and a life-time ban from the NFL. Although there was a judge that felt compelled to let Paris Hilton out of prison, the public outcry was so loud that she was thrown back in jail. And she is white by the way. The majority of the public doesn't feel that Mike Vick should be in jail because of his skin color. The people out there who do should be ashamed of themselves.

Africans Inveted Slavery. See: Egypt circa 3000BC

Can we stop blaming Slavery for all of the black communites woes now?

Excuse me, but what NFL owner is going to pay this individual to run their offense? In 2010, no less. I can just picture the press conference now: "I'm proud to introduce to the City of Baltimore the new starting quarterback of the Ravens, recently sprung from the Federal Penitentiary, drumroll please - Michael Vick! Proficient in violence to animals, lying, gambling, racketeering, and 4 years ago he cold run like hell. Boo now, folks - but I'm taking a stand and giving the most famous ex-con a chance to take our team all the way to the Super Bowl!" The crowd then goes wild and welcomes him with open arms to their city. Yeah, sure. That'll happen. Please. please, please ban him for life, Mr. Goodell. Michael Vick doesn't deserve a job in the NFL.

And Joe Horn - he's going to stand by him and still be his friend, he says. Why? If any of my friends were involved in anything like this, I'd distance myself in a hurry, and I'd be embarrassed to have ever associated with someone who could do what Vick did. Black, white, purple or whatever color - a human should recognize his behavior as criminal. And sickening.

Oh, and Kornheiser? Really? You guys like him? Well, I don't. He's so whiny and bald. (no offense, Willy) His football knowledge is clearly subpar, and I'm already sick of him talking about his stupid fantasy team. It detracts from me talking about my fantasy team.

Hey Mr.History, you may want to dig a little deeper....cause the TRUTH is...

Africans Inveted Slavery. See: Egypt circa 3000BC

OK, Ive calmed down, but do me a favor, if your gonna post Keiths crazy political comments, you cant say that this isnt a politcal blog to me. I thought Liberals were all about Correct Reporting and Fair and Balanced.

Come on Romie, dont let me down now!

Roman responds: I don't care about the political stuff, but you often approach the precipice of profanity and other stuff I don't want to put on. We all know you love W.

"As long as the media and the mainstream seem to celebrate when a black man fails you will see black people who don't even know who Michael Vick is rally around him."

Obviously you didn't watch the Bears game last night - these clowns are already anticipating his return. Still LOTS of Vick apologists out there. Just wait till Goodell drops the hammer (who Vick lied to)...they'll really start crying.

Speaking of lying, how do you suppose his mom feels. He trotted her up there with his lawyer a few weeks ago in support of Michael "and these false charges".

Lets face it … as despicable as it is … Vick will be back after serving his time. 2 years down the line people will still remember, people will still protest, the media will be all over it and love to have a big storyline to write about … and we will read it and we will blog about it … but Vick will still play and get paid very well to do so. And don’t blame the NFL … don’t blame the Commish! Blame our society. Even if Goodell sets a life-time ban … you know darn well the Players Association, a number of Lawyers, or even Jesse Jackson will find a loop hole that will leave the NFL & Goodell powerless in upholding such a ban. To us mortals … we could get the boot out of a company never to be able to return for a far cry less. But Vick would have served his time and will be allowed back.
We all know the NFL holds a lot more skeletons in their closet than the Manson family … but this one got out. The NFL is the monster that is our society. The NFL will not be able to make right anymore than we as a society can make right with the world. We will make Vick evermore the villain as Bonds is to Baseball or Bin Laden is to our way of life. And I … just as you … will sit there on Sundays and still watch the games.
Oh … and before we begin making this a racial issue … lets think about essentially what had occurred here with the “slavery” of these dogs.

Anne I love your post. The black community is tired of WAITING. Dr. King wrote a letter from the Birmingham jail about it, you might want to check it out. Ironically, he wrote it right after some EVIL people put some DOGS on him and women and children and locked them up in jail.

I wrote that Dick Cheney was HUNTING - and what was he hunting??? A N I M A L S !!!! You know like the ones VICK killed. And nobody cares for the deer and squirrels or whatever he shot besides the HUMAN BEING. Not one protest! Activists don't care if an animal dies lawfully or not, but they didn't protest Cheney, so they need to keep it. And nobody commented on Scooter!

Mathew - u raise some good points but I think people will have a hard time challenging Goodell if he gives Vick a lifetime ban. He is not preventing him from earning a living - he's kicking him out of a private league. Nothing would stop Vick from attending medical or law school to earn money.

Roman responds: I understand your point, but trying telling that to the family of Little's victim.

I understand you, too....You got me thinking about the family Little destroyed....and unfortunately, here's my take on it..

If that was my Wife Leonard Little killed...Remember that guy who killed the man responsible for molesting his Son in the airport as they were extraditing him? I would be that guy

Right or wrong...that's how I feel about Leonard Little, and I hope every time Mr. Little is walking alone in a parking lot, he thinks about it.....but most importantly, is good with the fact he deserves it

This is probably the best... albeit most profound thread I've ever been involved in

In closing, because mentally...I have to be funny tomorrow, and I can say this has gotten to me.....Where are the heroes? Who do the kids root for? What's fake/What's real?...Have we really become so politically correct that nobody is truly held accountable for their actions? I believe in P.C....but you'll have to reference the Prince song to find the definition I'll give you....lots of victims and nobody wants to be the owner

Sorry, I Didnt mean to approach any precipice of vulgarity, and bad language. I was getting so used to OB's anything goes style of letting us post away...that I forgot where I was.

Ok... at least let me say this. Valerie Plame is a total red herring. She took money from Far left PAC's and was never a covert agent. I spare you everyone the long article, but Roman saw it, he can vouche. No crime here at all. and Besides....who doesnt Love Bush??

OK, also, I didnt mean to post to Historical Slavery Posts TWICE, and I have always been on the side of repairations and restoring civil liberties that were stolen from Blacks and other groups in our countries young history. But when it comes to the individual, and they use that as their excuse as to why they are being held back or why the cards are stacked against them...or this ME against the world mentality, thats when you lose me as your supporter.

Vick is the Victem of his own devices. He was way beyond being affected by this 'Corrupt system" that everyone keeps crying about. But, look, ive been arrested, i didnt get a break, and there are plenty examples of Blacks who did get a break or a second chance..and so on.

If you like Vick right now, just admit it, its cause you are Pro-Black and you are so Bitter that you cant see straight and see the truth behind your clouded vision.

Im glad you didnt post my first post, because Jason, JRossi, Danica, TimLittle, Jack Armstrong and Guns of Navorone said it way more eloquently than I did. And I guess without coming near the precipice!

But the person who Put the BEST QUESTION IVE SEEN POSTED IN A LONG TIME OUT THERE IS......Anne. Awesome question Anne. I doubt that you will get truthful answer though. Lets see...

William, I agree with you...Roman hit the nail on the head. I don't have much to add to what he said. I do have a question for you though or really any of the black people on the blog. I understand why the black community feels the need to rally around young black men in trouble based on past inequities in the justice system, but don't you think this is bad for the black community in the long run? If young men living "thug" lifestyles feel they will always have acceptance and support in the black community no matter what they do, don't you think this allows them to more easily maintain that lifestyle? I know one of the things that kept me out of trouble as a youth was fearing the backlash from my family/social circle when I screwed up. Doesn't it seem like this support the black man no matter what (how scary was Keith's post?) is creating a long term problem while trying to solve a short term one since, true or false, it gives the black community the appearance of having very low standards of conduct.

Posted by: Anne | August 21, 2007 10:26 AM

Genius Question actually!!!!

Who is going to take a crack at this one???

Vick's lawyer's statment alludes to Vick wanting to apologize "again" for his actions? Did I miss the first apology? I'm sure Vick is only sorry that he got caught.

Hmmmmm let me think a minute here......Pete Rose banned from for life from baseball and the Hall Of Fame for gambling.....Mike Vick allowed to return to the NFL after serving time for running a dog fighting ring, torturing dogs to death, lying about his knowledge and involvement in the entire operation......Hmmmmmmmm return to the NFL...... I DON"T THINK SO!

Back to this Thread. I was a huge Vick fan. I drafted him last year in my FF league (traded him for Young) but still. I loved him, I loved his flashy play, I loved his hip-hop attitude.

Thats why I am so tick'd. I was a BIG FAN and he let me down.

Now, I also know, that America loves a second chance story. So, I have not closed the book on Michael Vick, or wish him ill will like some. If he pays his due, does his time, and repents and repays for his bad behavior, then, he should be given a second chance. Wheter or not an Owner will face the public pressure and do it, im sure it will come down to an econical decision, not a moral one. Like most business is done these days, to our detriment usually.

Still...I cant wait to see how people tackle Anne's question....Ill shut up now, and wait to see how this plays out.

Roman responds: He'll be signed, and I don't think Raider nation will be that upset, depending on how Russell pans out.

Hence "if" no one is willing to sign him. As long as he can still run faster than anyone and throw the ball three miles, Michael Vick will have a job waiting for him somewhere in the league; trust me, I'm not so stupid I can't see that.

Oh, and Culzie--Black people invented civilization. I fail to see your point about slavery, especially considering that's not what Ernest (whose opinions I neither espouse, nor particularly appreciate, for the record) was talking doing in the first place. Ernest was pointing out a system that exploits minorities as by the design of the dominant social class--which yes, Roman, does catch some white folks too. Sure, it affects Vick, but so does his guilt.

To summarize: white society discriminates against Black folks (among other minoritites), Michael Vick is guilty. Thread over.

/i wish

HITMAN SAYS
"In closing, because mentally...I have to be funny tomorrow, and I can say this has gotten to me....."

Are you a comedian? A clown? A democratic strategist?

Why do you have to be funny tomorrow? I dont get it...

Are you Bill Murray?

Roman responds: So you're going to make a political crack with every post? Clown? Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-7pGt24_I

It cracked me up when Vick issued his "apology." Yeah, he's sorry all right......sorry he got caught. And is anyone going to dig deeper into this in order to find out which other NFL players are also involved? There's no way Vick is the only one.

Michael Vick has proved to be one of the dumbest and most arrogant athletes walking on the face of the earth. Someone is suggesting that because another athlete was allowed to play after he served his time for vehicular manslaughter/DUI then Vick should have the right to play too. Although it's sad when someone drives drunk and kills someone it generally represents a one time lapse in judgement and unfortunately the results are fatal in many instances. However, Michael Vick knowingly fought dogs for 6 years, murdered them by hanging, electocution, drowning, beating, shooting etc. and he abused these animals and had them live in deplorable conditions. Above all that, he funded the operation, bet on it, violated interstate commerce, engaged in racketeering, lied to the NFL about it and for all that he should be done. If the NFL would ban someone for life because of illegal gambling and it's clear that Vick was illegally gambling then all of the other attrocities are icing on the cake to seal Vicks fate. I have no sympathy for his circumstances.

The only silver lining in this case is to say that the feds will take dog fighting more seriously and everything that goes with it and that Pit Bulls will be more protected from scum of the earth.
I hope Vick gets bottomed by real big guys in jail.

Have fun on the rape stand Michael.

Dan...that's a quality post.

Vick lawyer comment at plea agreement: "Michael wishes to apologize again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter."

The allusion to the first apology was during the first press conference where Vick trotted up his momma, and his lawyers professed his innocense and looked forward to proving his innocence, and apologized for putting his teammates and family through this..and also regretted not being able to be there for "Spring Training".

I'm thinking Vick's mom is thinking it might have been a mistake to give birth to Michael at age 16, and top it off by giving birth a few years later to Marcus.

bculllzzz...."I don't get it"

everybody...."We know"

Keith - you can do it...come one....take a deep breath and say it..."Vick is guilty of torturing man's best friend. I was wrong". You'll feel better in the morning.
Or maybe you'd rather continue to believe Vick is a victim here. Either way your showing yourself as the ultimate village idiot.
Keep it up...Michael will need a lot more people like you down the road!

Anyone that can torture or murder a innocent dog/cat etc. could do the same to a human. Vick is a bad guy period. He is grown & I assume has some IQ ? He should of known what he was doing was wrong ? No black or white about this Vick is not a good human being. Allot of racism unfortunately still lingers in our society but not in Vick's case. Id say throw him in jail for awhile & if comes back to the NFL I'm sure a few guys on D might remind him of what he did!

Ironically, i think Donaghy is guilty of the same systemic problem that plagued Pacman,ConVick and Tankformer...

thats......

Couldnt leave the "old hood" behind (and im not talking about the ghetto) im talking about that those old running buddies that always got you into trouble.

Its sad that someone who had aspired and achieved more than those hangers ons, not being able to break their grip, and eventually going down.

It probably seems like an easy decision to just give up on all your old homies and pals and running mates, i mean....

Dog fighting in bloody backroom & deep woods barns vs. VIP rooms, Penthouses and Leer jets

....hmmmmmm....tough one for me!!! Ill take the Penthouse and the Leer jets please. Every day of the week and 2wice on sunday.

But i guess it wasnt so clear for Vick. Or, if it was, then he is a worse person than i thought, because he knew it was wrong, and still did it, and thought he was untouchable.

Keith, Michael Vick's activities were felonious. Dogfighting is a felony. Shooting at birds is not. In fact, all you need is a permit to hunt and your within the law. Dick Cheney is scary as hell, but he didn't do anything illegal. Accidents happen. Nothing Vick did was an accident. It was all on purpose and for money and prestige (I assume) in his sick little world. And last time I checked, activists do protest hunting.

Anne, I also find your question interesting, and it's even more interesting that no one has provided an answer for you and the rest of us.

I'll answer you Anne,since any answer I give will solve ALL black people's problems. First, where did I say that I sided with Vick and every black person sided with Vick? I said that as long as the media and mainstream seem to celebrate when a black man fails black people will rally around them. What nationality doesn't rally around their own? Elvira was considered a law-breaker but name one person with a latin name who said that she was a criminal and that she deserved to be deported. Sure, Vick probably did all those things that they said he did but will we ever know. All that info that came out was info from the guys who were caught. They couldn't just come out and say that he was passing through or just watched because that wouldn't have gotten them the break that they got. You have to deliver the goods or you're not worth jack. And I guess the secret is out that Ernest and I are one in the same. Don't forget that sometimes I'm Darryl M. and Keith as well. I guess if we're not happy we're all the same. Ask Roman if we are the same. He would know. It's called an IP address. And it's not only black people who glorify that gangsta lifestyle you're talking about. I see enough people of all races ,gangsta, that I know that it's not just a black thing. Am I right,bra? Go to 26th in California and you'll see people who are visiting their family members who are locked up. Black ,white hispanic or whatever: they all sound the same or act similar. When you're poor like the majority of society is there's bound to be people who you sympathize with who is incarcerated. When you're perfect you can actually see that the world is crooked and you're the one who is mistake-free. And when someone mention "African American" in his blog why wouldn't one of "those people" give his take on the situation? I said that as a black man it is "somewhat" embarrassing, but no where near the point that I have to hold my head down in shame. It's no different than the guy who said during the weeks before the Superbowl that he was tired of hearing that there were two black men coaching teams in the Superbowl. Black people were,too. We want things to be so common that it doesn't have to be an issue. Let's stop acting like what Vick did is the worst thing a man ever did. Men, for forever, have done worse to each other and the majority of the time we're asked to get over it. Why not this? There is no answer for you Anne,because someone will have to take blame as equal as they take credit for the way our whole society acts. We're all wrong.

I'm back and I must respond to a few of you. First, Bcullzz you have a propensity to correct and trash any post you with which you disagree. If you read my later posts (which you obviously skimmed through), you would know that I am in no way condoning Vick's actions. None of us to this point know what crimes he is pleading guilty to. All of us only know that he is pleading guilty to something. If he only pleads guilty to financing the operation across state lines but none of the more heinous charges, we'll never really know whether he did those things or not. Kind of like Bonds and steroids.

The problem I have with a snitch is clearly outlined in my earlier threads. You act like they had some responsibility to give Vick up. NO! They did it in order to get leniency. In the end, they look worse in a lot of Black people's eyes, maybe except Darryl M.'s. I'm not in any way giving Vick a pass for his guilt. He deserves jail time. I just don't like the way it happened. I'd prefer a trial in front of a jury of his peers. Fact is, he is pleading guilty to something and I'm not passing that. He was stupid enough to carry the streets with him and now they've caught up with him. I'm more concerned about another young brother going into that system for making a dumb decision. The next time you feel the need to address my comments, read all of them first. Whether you agree or not, that's okay. Give me something other than cynicsm as a counter point. It looks childish on your part.

One more thing: why do some of you seem to think that black people all seem to love the gangsta or thug lifestyle? If any of you think that the black men on this blog has an answer for why some people glorify thugs and their like then you're wasting your time waiting. Any man of substance and dignity who wants to change the world we live in would not waste his time on sports blog under any circumstance. I've yet to see Jesse or Obama or any man of color in the political arena or whatever espousing what he thinks that Vick should get for punishment on this blog. We are just men who work-come home-watch sports and join a bunch of regular Joes on this blog and talk on layman's terms about sports. I don't wear my pants around my butt and sit out and drink fourties. I don't have 6 or seven kids that I'm not paying child support for or neglects. I've never robbed anyone or shot anyone. And I've never been to a strip club. I don't drive an Escalade with spinners or owe money for selling bad drugs. The guys who do those things wouldn't waste their precious time trying to feel what you're saying and don't care what you think. I'm offended that you would think that I or any of "these" brothers will have an answer to what ails 15 million black people. I think that was silly and sort of dumb to be waiting around for an answer. Ask your friends of color for an answer. And if you have none then ask yourself why that is so.

Ann, I love your questions. I'll give only my opinion and I only speak for myself, no one else............

If young men living "thug" lifestyles feel they will always have acceptance and support in the black community no matter what they do, don't you think this allows them to more easily maintain that lifestyle?............

Ernest responds: Thing is, you have to understand that they don't have the acceptance and support of our community. What they have is our hope that the younger generation coming up will watch and learn from their indiscretions. What they have is the hope that after they have paid their debt to society, it won't look down on them and force them back into the same mentality that put them into a bad spot in the first place. Poverty and lack of opportunity usually causes a person to do things they wouldn't normally do. Our hope is that they are allowed to re enter society as productive members. Once again, this hope is for any race of poor people.

I know one of the things that kept me out of trouble as a youth was fearing the backlash from my family/social circle when I screwed up. Doesn't it seem like this support the black man no matter what (how scary was Keith's post?) is creating a long term problem while trying to solve a short term one since, true or false, it gives the black community the appearance of having very low standards of conduct.

Ernest responds: The dichotomy of being a black man is always interesting. On one hand, you have a percentage of us that deserve our disdain, then you have some that we should disdain but don't deserve it. We ride with some because all they know is the dark parts of societal behavior(Vick). We despise some because they knew a better way and still chose a dark path(O.J.). Trust this, Blacks weren't saluting O.J. for being black because he is only black in skin color alone. We were saluting his victory over the justice system that only a few years before led to the near destruction of L.A. county after the mockery at Simi Valley. Remember Rodney King getting his butt whipped on camera by the cops. Well, all 4 of those cops walked. The LA riots ensued as a cry out that we were tired of police brutality. The feds jumped in and convicted those cops but it should have never gotten that far. A lot of us, myself included, believe O.J. was guilty as sin. We just didn't want to see Johnny Cochran lose. We don't support criminals no matter what, we just would like some balance every once in awhile and we'll take any little victory we can get. Our standards of conduct are not low, we just don't have a lot of strong leaders like we had in the 60's to teach and guide us. A lot of our men were not raised by men so they have no point of reference on how to be the head of a family. A lot of our men only know the streets and with that comes certain behaviors and mentalities that are not consistent with society's acceptance.

Roman sez: "The reason Vick's getting attention is because he's the highest-paid player in the NFL and the highest-profile athlete to be headed to jail in his prime."

Ain't dat da truth?

If Vick were an undrafted long snapper playing on some team's developmental squad, the entire saga would have gotten about as much ink as I've used on this post.

As serious, and disgusting as his actions were, if Michael was an NFL nobody, the entire story would have fit on the back of a matchbook cover.

I have to admit that when it comes to idiots like Paris Hilton, and Michael Vick, we're all just a bunch of media whores, and Johns, in search of our next trick.

William and Ernest - wonderful posts. But I am going to keep it REAL, Anne knew everything you guys posted. They got books and TV and they understand. I find it an insult for someone to decipher the tone of my post, and then ask a question like "why". Its equivalent to a black person asking: why were some whites crying about the OJ verdict? You didn't find black folks asking questions like that because we understand PAIN and injustice. And we would not add insult to injury. Some of us are just plain old sick and tired of it, and hate being told to remain silent, patient, and composed - while others get to over-react all the time.

And for the record I know that Vick was wrong, he is going to pay - unlike Cheney, Libby, or our former Govenor who is about to wiggle free also (audacity). And Julie, you know good and well that the animals Cheney shot were no different than the dogs Vick allegedly killed. Folks were posting - as if that was the first time - they ever heard of someone killing animals. Vick bought, fought, and killed his. Wonder where he ever got an idea like that? Cheney was the PERFECT poster guy for protesters, but they wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole and still don't consider his kind of killing wrong. I work for a research institution - with all the licenses in the world and those protesters (all 4 of them) break in and steal the animals. Hating the death of animals has NOTHING to do with whether is lawful or not. I abhor all killing - even when white folks do the killing.

"Elvira was considered a law-breaker but name one person with a latin name who said that she was a criminal and that she deserved to be deported."

That's pretty easy to do: Esther Cepeda, one of this paper's columnists. Maybe you should read the entire paper, not just the sports section.

I skimmed again.

Good answers though. Very Thoughtful.

I think there are thugs of all colors actually.

I love Rap. I hate censorship. I think were all good people in this Blog. There are bad people of all shades.

Much Love!

All this really is, is the white man's refusal to accept a black man's culture. While many of you think about 'those poor dogs', in the back of your head you fantasize about shooting that 5 point buck from your lazy box up in a tree.So, the next time Michael Vicks Image of corn rows and weed pop in to your head,and the 'N' word is about to pass your tongue, realize this: Brett Favre has killed more animals than Michael Vick. He is going to the hall of fame on the heels of our fellow white man's culture.
Join Our fight "Deer are defenseless too!", won't you? Or will
your own hypocricy continue to feed your subconsious apathy towards minorites? You yearn to grasp a moral fiber to justify your unimpactful life, yet the inconvenience of self-accountability has only hastened your strife.

Roman, this case will NOT stop or even effect dogfighting as a whole. It will stop athletes with something to lose from participating. Nothing will stop drunk drivers - except law changes. When people get serious it will stop. Killing animals is not taken seriously by this society. You and I know that. After Vick goes to jail, all that will happen is Vick goes to jail. Big Willy is right in his posts - the Feds dropped everyone's charges in order to get VICK. They are not interested in Dog-justice they are interested in bringing down a high profile athlete. Somewhere in their chambers I can imagine there is an OJ file with the stamp on the cover "NEVER AGAIN". And those animal activists - feel like black folks do - they don't CARE - they are just happy to get some action. AND I DONT BLAME THEM. Thats how you feel after a looooong time of getting no results.

And contrary to what you all think, Vick will be protected in jail because there he will be UNDERSTOOD. Even prison has justice. He is not going to be there long, and like Roman said - he will play in the NFL again. And if he is smart, he will remember that angry lynch mob and all those rats who sold him out. He is getting a good old-fashioned African-American lesson that many of these young gifted black athletes did not get from their fathers (like Barry did). They cheer you son, but deep down, many of them hate you and will hurt you if they EVER get the chance to. You are not playing by the same rules.

I wonder if Bob Barker will find the time from checking bids on eBay during his retirement to spay and neuter Michael Vick?

Ernest - Thanks for taking the time to respond. Lots of good food for thought in your answer. It is a frustrating situation. (And for the record, I never thought you were WRD!)

William - I'm sorry you were offended by my post. I was being sincere in my desire to understand how people within your community felt about this problem. You are always preaching about how people who aren't black shouldn't presume to know what black people are thinking. Weren't you just scolding culzie last week for having an opinion about the ghetto when he wasn't from the ghetto? You are the last person I expected to take offense to my directing a question ABOUT the black community TO the black community. I do have a few black friends and I could ask them, but I thought the anonymity of the blog might get me more honest answers. Although we're friends, the tensions between black people and white people in the world make it difficult to discuss these things openly and honestly sometimes. Also, I didn't intend for you to feel that I expected you to answer for all black people everywhere, only yourself. And it is because I DON'T think you live a thug lifestyle that I posed the question to you....I don't wonder why people who live the lifestyle defend it, I wonder why people who don't live it defend it.

Bculz - Thanks for your support, although, on this blog, I'm not sure if that's to my advantage or to my detriment. ;)
Maybe, with a little luck, Julie B's "good karma" here will help offset!

Anybody notice the silliness about an employee working for Oprah who OBVIOUSLY WORKED & WARRANTED the overtime salary they received?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/519858,CST-NWS-harpo22.article

If we do not work we are called lazy and only want welfare and then when we do work hard it is too much money to be paid out. I wonder how those oil executives, software executives or even a SUN-TIMES executive feel about their large salaries. I bet they tell you they WORKED HARD FOR IT!

Keith says:
I wrote that Dick Cheney was HUNTING - and what was he hunting??? A N I M A L S !!!! You know like the ones VICK killed. And nobody cares for the deer and squirrels or whatever he shot besides the HUMAN BEING. Not one protest! Activists don't care if an animal dies lawfully or not,

First of all I don't know anyone that goes out huntimg dogs (the animals that Vick killed). Secondly this country is full of activists that care about and protest even the legal hunting of any animal. But unless they are strict vegetarians or vegans then they are Hypocrites. Case in point...several years ago I was tlaking with a store cashier whose husband I had hunted with on several occasions. She aked if I had gotten a deer yet that year. The lady behind me in line began to admonish me for killing Bambi as she stacked several T-bone steaks on the counter. My reply to her was this....Lady it's very hypocritical of you to critisize me for hunting food for my table while you stack steaks on the counter for your dinner. Those steaks were recently a live cow that had no chance as it was lead down a chute to be killed for you. Those steaks were not made in a factory and thier natural habitat is not a plastic wrapper. Consider this, you paid an animal assasin so you could eat that steak, I on the other hand merely chose to do my own killing.

point of clarity to mr. frazier: I couldn't care less about those who "snitched" on Vick because they fall under that expansive category of "Stupid Brothers Who Knew They Were Breaking The Law And, Thus, Do Not Deserve My Attention." I don't consider them to be any worse than Vick--as the adage goes, there is no honor amongst thieves, and if anyone expected them not to sell Vick down the river because of some noble ideals, their view of human nature is as about as shortsighted and underinformed as Culzie's political outlook.

now that you've elaborated on some of your thoughts, mr. frazier, I can at least appreciate part of where you're coming from, but I'm still not grasping the logic behind what you say. it's one thing to be an underprivileged youth whose only choice is to roll with a gang or get beaten within an inch of his life. it's another thing entirely to be a multimillionaire athlete who's been coddled since the age of 16 because of his prodigious athletic ability. i'm not going to say Vick's life was all wine and roses in high school and college, but i'm guessing the "better" path became fairly obvious to him by the time he turned 18. If anything, this makes him even worse than those who rolled over on him, because, unfair though it may have been, he was obligated by his community standing and socioeconimic status to set a better example for his peers and successors, which he demonstrably hasn't.

i'll be the first to admit that I don't "know the streets" as much as some others on this thread, but i'm absolutely sick and tired of us using the same tired-old "all they know is the streets" argument when some ignorant brother decides he'd rather act like a n-word [sic] than a multimillionaire who got a free college education. this is the reason why many African, Haitian, and Jamaican immigrants/refugees have no respect for Black Americans--they know worse poverty, violence, and instability than any of us will ever know, and yet most of them mysteriously manage to avoid breaking the laws here. not to minimize the suffering of the truly poor and marginalized here in the states, but if Somalis that grew up in constant fear of their home getting blown up in a civil war can find a job, take care of their kids, and stay out of trouble here, it's safe to say it's possible for an american black kid getting millions of dollars to play a sport ought to know enough to refrain from breaking the law.

apologies to anne, but i didn't find her questions to be all that illuminating. the issue isn't whether or not the black community recognizes the inherent danger of standing behind someone who may not deserve the support; for at least the past thirty years, the struggle has been ascertaining how to convey to our lowest common denominator that the path of least resistance is as such because it leads straight down the toilet.

i should probably get back to work.

VICK Dog Toys for Sale

http://cgi.ebay.com/Michael-Vick-Dog-Chew-Toy-Guilty-Plea-Makes-Dogs-Happy_W0QQitemZ220140702307QQihZ012QQcategoryZ206QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Michael-Vick-Dog-Chew-Toy_W0QQitemZ250157324558QQihZ015QQcategoryZ206QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ya know, I forgot about the state charges that will probably be brought up once Vick officially signs that plea and the Federal Charges are brought upon him....

The Dog ate my Law books this morning....but common sense tells me Virginia is gonna nail him too....seems like a slam dunk if he admits to guilt in the Feds plea....guess we gotta see the verbage in plea....

So...does he do his stint in Federal...get extradited....and do more time in the State Pen?

Off topic, but I too thought the story on the Oprah employee was absolutely ridiculous. The fact that they put this non-story on the front page is an embarrassment to the paper.

darryl m, be careful when you compare outsiders to African Americans. Its out of context. African Americans come from AMERICA - where all of its natives are spoiled, greedy, lazy, and envied world-wide. African Americans have to battle American culture - and then do it with broken families, racism, and no country to call their own. We are in America, but America doesn't seem to want to claim us until they NEED us. They have treated us worse than any of Vick's dogs were treated.

J Rossi...u nailed it.

The most telling moment for me was a few months back, when this story broke. A reporter was following Vick and Vick was going on about how people loved him, and that they would support him during this time. As a closing question, the reporter asked "Michael, do you think in the end you'll be exonerated"?
Vick was perturbed and said "Man, no comment", obviously not knowing what the word "exonerated" meant.

too funny

Man, how would you feel if you were the guy who casted Adam Sandler as the QB in the remake of The Longest Yard. Had you waited till later this year, you could have gone to Vick's prison and used him as the QB and saved on salary, trailor costs, etc.

....I don't wonder why people who live the lifestyle defend it, I wonder why people who don't live it defend it. (anne)

another good question. How about Starbury and Joe Horn and now I hear that Sharpton is warming up the bus. OMG. Can someone go take some of MLK's DNA or some stem cells and clone him and bring him back to life. Cause, the black leaders right now are really off their rockers. Defending a punk like Vick, because he is black. Thats like me defending a catholic priest who *bleeps* kids cause he is Catholic.

Also,

Good cheap shot Cousin Darryl, i actually laughed out loud, well done!

oh and dont be worried, to have my vote of confidence. Im not affraid to be the minority political voice in the blog these days.

im nausaus, i need to go read up on Mit Romny.

i'll be the first to admit that I don't "know the streets" as much as some others on this thread, but i'm absolutely sick and tired of us using the same tired-old "all they know is the streets" argument when some ignorant brother decides he'd rather act like a n-word [sic] than a multimillionaire who got a free college education. this is the reason why many African, Haitian, and Jamaican immigrants/refugees have no respect for Black Americans--they know worse poverty, violence, and instability than any of us will ever know, and yet most of them mysteriously manage to avoid breaking the laws here. not to minimize the suffering of the truly poor and marginalized here in the states, but if Somalis that grew up in constant fear of their home getting blown up in a civil war can find a job, take care of their kids, and stay out of trouble here, it's safe to say it's possible for an american black kid getting millions of dollars to play a sport ought to know enough to refrain from breaking the law.

Ernest responds: I grant you some of your point but there is a much more underlying and relevant difference between Black Americans and Blacks from other cultures. Those people don't have a point of reference for cultural acceptance and prosperity. We have Caucasians. Although they have dealt with poverty and oppressed socio-economic conditions, they've never had to deal with the struggle of the Black American. They don't respect us because they don't know the history of our forefathers. They only know that slavery existed, they don't know the extent of it's existence. They come here with the idea that America is the land of opportunity, we are already here and we know how untrue that really is. Their proud to enjoy some of the freedoms that we are born into. We're upset because we feel that we deserve more. Our communities have been gentrified, our men have been oppressed and considered to be thugs or drug dealers, our women have been marginalized as bitches, hoes, gold diggers and sex fiends. We are taught the bill of rights in school and a lot of time, those same rights don't seem to serve us. It's not only because we're Black either. It's more because we're poor and uneducated. Poor whites, Latino-Americans and any other race born into this country are suffering the same fate. Michael Vick was born into this same oppressed situation. Whether he had a chance to better himself or not is not the point. We all know he had that chance. But, once something is a part of you kind of like any addictive situation, it's hard to leave it behind. He's apparently addicted to a street mentality. The true shame is, he had a chance to be a truly special person. A young Black man in a leadership position that is usually reserved for big, strong, intelligent White men. If I may use part of your argument, the fact that he was coddled and sheltered is a much larger part of what has led him to this point in his young life. My only hope is that his story helps some young, talented poor person, no matter the race, see that the bling culture is not okay and no one is above the law. If you get a chance, go pick up "40 Million Dollar Slaves" by William Rhoden. You'll then know what has formed my point of view on Black athletes and society in general.

And contrary to what you all think, Vick will be protected in jail because there he will be UNDERSTOOD. Even prison has justice. He is not going to be there long, and like Roman said - he will play in the NFL again. And if he is smart, he will remember that angry lynch mob and all those rats who sold him out. He is getting a good old-fashioned African-American lesson that many of these young gifted black athletes did not get from their fathers (like Barry did). They cheer you son, but deep down, many of them hate you and will hurt you if they EVER get the chance to. You are not playing by the same rules.

Posted by: Keith Lifetime Southsider | August 22, 2007 09:04 AM

True, so true! In jail he will be protected and coddled but the ones that rolled on him better watch out. I'm not saying I condone it, but I'm in full agreement with this thread. As far as the Barry and Bobby Bonds comment, you all know that I agree with that thought. It's true, so very true.

Oh, Culzie - you of all people should know it's spelled "Mitt." You're docked.

Ester who? Never heard of her. Fact of the matter is I don't read the sports pages either. I used to read the entire paper but after a while I was sick of reading all the negativity. If you didn't know: there a are a lot of sick stuff going on in the world. The newspapers make their money off of it because that's what the world wants. I don't need too much of that stuff. The BOOK I do read in it's entirety is the THE BOOK. I scold that guy because he's all over the place. He knows too much and it sounds condescending and forced. There isn't anything he hasn't done or a situation he's not familiar with. He attacks too many comments after he doesn't bother to read the whole thing. I try to ignore him but he's too busy TRYING to rub people the wrong way. Guys like that just aren't my cup of tea. You can live life any way you want but for what reason would a person be so prone to rile someone up for pure enjoyment? And my community is a northern suburb near the Wisconsin border. What do you want to know about it? I was raised on the south side and besides 3 years in the military I lived there until 3 years ago when I met my wife who had a house here. I didn't run away and if I didn't have a wife who's from small town Decatur Illinois, I would still be comfortable living there. No one is defined by the community they live in. I've seen plenty of nasty houses in Arlington Heights,Mount Prospect and Schaumburg to know that just because a side of town is nice doesn't mean that the citizens are impeccable. People are people- good and bad- no matter where you go.

Earnest, arent the ones doing the marginalizing from within that very same community. I mean, Don Imus may have called a few black women, Nappy headed hoes, but he was hardly the first to do that.

I realize that much of the ills that face inner city and poor communities comes from OUTSIDE those communities, but doesnt alot of it also come from within.

I think thats the crux of this thread. Noone is saying that Blacks get a fair shake all the time. Thats totally understood, and totally BS and should be fixed. But, there are things that are happening from within the community like Desparaging of women and the echo's of keeping it real and earning your "street cred" and the issue of all issues, but this....its worse to snitch on your own, than commit crimes on your own. THATS WHAT I AM RAILING AGAINST.

Much of what you said is dead on EF, but I dont think anyone is dissagreeing with you either.

Ironically, i think Donaghy is guilty of the same systemic problem that plagued Pacman,ConVick and Tankformer...

thats......

Couldnt leave the "old hood" behind (and im not talking about the ghetto) im talking about that those old running buddies that always got you into trouble.

Its sad that someone who had aspired and achieved more than those hangers ons, not being able to break their grip, and eventually going down.

It probably seems like an easy decision to just give up on all your old homies and pals and running mates, i mean....

Dog fighting in bloody backroom & deep woods barns vs. VIP rooms, Penthouses and Leer jets

....hmmmmmm....tough one for me!!! Ill take the Penthouse and the Leer jets please. Every day of the week and 2wice on sunday.

But i guess it wasnt so clear for Vick. Or, if it was, then he is a worse person than i thought, because he knew it was wrong, and still did it, and thought he was untouchable.

Romo

I recommend that you end your blog on any topic when Keith writes his "cry me a river" reponse that he loves to write so often...

Keith - the think that comes to mind with your diatribe is the Phil Hartmann skit on SNL where he plays Frank Sinatra, and plays the fake violin for the ramblings of Sinead O'Connor (Jan Hooks).

Tim Little & Stuckinwisconsin - very informative posts. HYPOCRISY is America's real problem. Its the reason we don't have stronger laws. Racism is the other big problem. And when the two are combined, you get (spoiled rotten) people who want to process a certain sect of the population to the FULL extent of the law - while their counterparts go free. Its evil, but you don't hear anyone asking questions like "why". And the world is looking in at America's dirty laundry. Only because of its might and wealth, do they keep silent - waiting for a great Roman Empire-esqe fall. We wept on 911, but many around the world wore a collective smirk, like the kind you wear when a big bully gets his comeuppance.

Did someone really just say we got our "comeupance" with 9/11?

Wow...didnt expect to hear that from you Keith. I dont think you think that, but you dont sound too appauled either.

Still, dont see how anything in your last post relates to the TOPIC.

Pit bulls at Vick's house face deadline By ZINIE CHEN SAMPSON, Associated Press Writer -Wed Aug 22, 6:32 PM ET

RICHMOND, Va. - More than 50 pit bulls seized from Michael Vick's property face a Thursday deadline to be claimed. If no one comes forward, they could be euthanized.

====Movie Idea======

Its the year 2025, and the country has made dogfighting punishible by the death penalty, so instead of facing such penalties, scores and scores of pitbull breeders just unleash their dogs and let them go free. These Steroid laden fighting machines dont just go off into the wilderness however, they are so programmed to fight and lust for blood, that they instead turn their attentions back on an unsuspecting little Virgina town.

This super pack of roids raging pitbulls begin mauling (and betting on it) the entire town...until one man stepped up.

A man in a tattered Atlanta jersey and a long beard raises his hand at the small town hall meeting and says....i can do something about it.

That man is old dog fighter himself Michael Vick, who is the only hope the town has since he can speak Pitbull. Something he learned a long time ago.

Flash to last scene..

Vick is corned in a dark ally, by the two biggest baddest dogs of the Pack....The leader...Known as BigMac..and his latino/broken english speaking side kick...Sammy. They are just about to break out the RapeStand.....when VIck..reached into his coat...and pulls out his ________________

(you pick the ending).

Earnest, arent the ones doing the marginalizing from within that very same community. I mean, Don Imus may have called a few black women, Nappy headed hoes, but he was hardly the first to do that.

Ernest responds: It goes a little deeper than that. You see the black woman on t.v. rolling her neck, acting defiantly towards men, shooting up dope, prostituting, dancing on videos with next to nothing on but never as the housewife type. We had Claire Huxtable but she was a high powered attorney. As far as the video vixens go, it has been a prevailing theory since slavery times that black women are much more promiscuous and sexually aware than their white counterparts. It has been sublimally fed into our young women's heads for years. Once again, it goes back to not having that dominant male figure in the household to create that sense of worth and importance in that young girl in the eyes of a man. When there is no male figure to tell that girl that she's special, she'll look for male acceptance in other ways and sometimes it isn't the correct way. With no dominant female role models in the mainstream, she's going to choose the path of least resistance towards that acceptance. So it's not just about marginalization coming from the black community towards a woman, it's about the choices someone makes when they don't know any better. If what you see as acceptable in the eyes of your peers happens to be bling, you'll seek it out. If it's drugs, you'll seek it out. If it's sex, you'll seek it out. These young ladies are bombarded by images of women their age being adored by these hip hop and r&b cats for just being fine. They're going to want the same thing. With no male figure to have ever shown them what a man likes and respects, how could it turn out any diferent. Marginalization is easy to understand.

Cornered. Sorry! although corned still works?

I take my earlier comment back about the justice system not being racist. The fact that they aren't going to charge Lindsey Lohan with felony charges for posession of cocaine and her second DUI in 4 months is absurd. Her first DUI came when she was under the age of 21. What kind of message are we sending to the rest of America, especially America's youth?

Considering Mike Vick was stupid enough to get involved in this entire mess do any of you really think he is smart enough to have been the entire brains behind it? I doubt it. A couple of you expressed disdain for his "friends" that rolled over on him, who is Vick rolling over on? You can bet that when he realized he was screwed he gave up some one higher in the food chain for his guilty plea. Were other NFL players involved? I'm sure others were aware of his activities but did any of them attend and gamble on the fights? If so they should also be charged with at the very least illegal gambling and their names published.

Bculz, for being a fly on a mound of dung, it sure is easy to get your attention. If you weren't 'flying' around looking to add your oppinion to just about every post here, then maybe you would have time to actually understand the context of these posts you so quickly dismiss. Then,having a full understanding of the post, your response would be well thought out ,and typed.
Please go back and read Keith's post again. Take a few minutes to
absorb it. Then post. Have a nice day :)

Why are some people on here surprised that some blacks on here are defending Vick? A certain segment of blacks are so klannish about their own that they will defend one of their own regardless of the evidence or the facts of the case. Look at $hit for brains Stephon Marbury coming out in defense of Vick yesterday. Also, why are some on here surprised that some blacks on here would bring up slavery and the civil rights era when defending an animal like Vick? Bringing up slavery and past injustices is the party line that some use when defending the indefensible. It's the party line used by people who don't think blacks should be held responsible for ANYTHING they do. To put it bluntly, Southside Keith and Ernest and a few other Vick apologists on here are just exhibiting their racism in defending Vick. The racism they are exhibiting on here is no different than the racism that all white juries in Mississippi and Alabama exhibited back in the early 60's when they would acquit an obviously guilty white guy of lynching a black person. Those all white juries did not care about right or wrong, they just cared about saving one of their own. And that's all that Vick apologists today care about. Which is what I, as a white man who grew up on the southside, fully expected when this Vick case became public.

Roman responds: Juries in Mississippi in the '60s? Are you serious? You think that's the only reflection of a biased system? Please. You haven't seen all the innocent people freed from death row by DNA? In Illinois? The only non-black I can remember was Rolando Cruz. You haven't read about the "confessions" tortured out of blacks by Jon Burge in Chicago? See, again, that's the problem with trying to tell people how they should feel. You haven't been in their shoes.
Ok, I just went back and re-reard your post, and my comment may have been off-point. But I still think it's valid.

Stuckinwisconsin, you are truly a pathetic soul who sounds like you have posters of Michael Moore and Jesse(Hymietown)Jackson on the ceiling of your bedroom.

Mr. Donald, the points that I attack are those broad sweeping generalizations that people such as yourself like to make up in order to support their particular point of view. You asked that someone name one person with a Latin name that considered her a criminal and said she should be deported, and I did. For that you attack me personally instead of trying to defend your own point - really, your rebuttal was nothing more than an attempt to avoid addressing the shortcomings of your own argument.

As far as your point that I'm trying to rub people the wrong way, if I disagree with someone's argument, I'm going to state why. How is this any different than the posts of Keith, Ernest, Stuck or bculzzzz? Are they intentionally trying to rub people the wrong way? Some people would say so, but really, a lot of posters here - myself included - could care less. Whether or not I disagree with their arguments, I still like to hear them. As for your condesending statement that "there isn't anything he hasn't done or a situation he's not familiar with," the same could be said of you.

I take my earlier comment back about the justice system not being racist. The fact that they aren't going to charge Lindsey Lohan with felony charges for posession of cocaine and her second DUI in 4 months is absurd. Her first DUI came when she was under the age of 21. What kind of message are we sending to the rest of America, especially America's youth?

Posted by: Pete | August 23, 2007 10:05

I'll only say this then I'm moving on........

Anne, that's another answer to your question regarding the reason we rally around our people even when they're so obviously guilty. They tried to release Paris Hilton(white) after 1 day in jail. Thank God the judge had some sense. Lil' Kim(black) did 1 year in jail for perjuring herself in a deposition during a grand jury trial. Is it a crime, yes. But so are 2 dui's in less than 4 months and felony cocaine possession. Foxy Brown(black) is in jail now for a probation violation and she's pregnant. The system is corrupt and definitely slanted away from Black America.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070821

I have been sitting on the sidelines reading this stream, not being sure what to make of it or perhaps how to harness and express my thoughts. I think that although some of you take cheap shots, critique without making valid counterpoints and at times write knee-jerk reaction posts without thinking things through, overall this is a very healthy and enlightening stream about our society and how it is divided, yet at the same time full of hope. That being said, check out the link to a Jemele Hill column, an African-American woman, which appears at ESPN.com. I will continue to read the stream, try to organize my thoughts and hopefully be able to give you all my two-cents worth in the near future.

stuck..are you feeling left out of Culzies fan club? did you not get the newsletter this week?

This is the only place I post. First and last.

Stuck..I skimmed your post too!!

To be a middle aged black man 6'1", 240 who grew up on the South Side of chicago, I agree mostly with what E. Frazier and W. R. Donald say. Hey, maybe I am both men as well. The simple fact is Susan Smith, the Carolina woman---Killed her two boys, and the outpouring of sympathy for her was astounding. She willingly murdered two boys, yet people wanted to show compassion. Michael Vick murdered dogs, and animal lovers, and non animal lovers alike want him dead, a lot of these posters want the men in jail to do nasty things to him, and probably kill him as well.

Does he deserve to die? Don't know. I have never lived a thug life, sold drugs, shot someone, or fought dogs. Hated rap music most of my life, and I used to live in the hood'. I am college educated, I work downtown where a lot of you probably see me---and clutch your purses, or stare at me until I pass you, then turn around to see if I am coming from behind. Or Just cross the street and walk faster, any black man has faced that. Racism is not as overt as before because of the 13th, and 14th amendments. It's hidden in concepts such as minorities being punished to the fullest extent of the law(like Keith said), even when people of the majority commit the same crime, yet get a lighter sentence or get off free as a first time offender, and Vick is a first time offender for this crime. Also, one of my least favorites, driving while black. That is what we are tired of getting rolled over by the police, white society(who view us all as the same person, or as criminals, or say we are not like the others.) But now, our own people snitch on us.

I saw where someone said Leonard Little made a mistake. What, knowing you have had too much to drink and not calling a cab home or hitching a ride is now a mistake now when you kill someone, not a homicide. So If Mr. Little did it again and killed maybe your spouse, your kid, your brother, your parent(s), or your best friend, would that be a mistake to you then Hitman, or Tim Little. Last I checked Leonard Little is black as well. So it's not about race, it's about the crime.

I, too, wish that the young black men who grow up behind me who have no father at home(I did, but no mother, divorce), are smart enough to see Vick's failure and maybe leave the thug life behind after they make it.

To the poster, bculzzzz, the brothers decided to let you slide but I won't, Africans did not invent slavery, they used indentured servitude, a process where you could be housed by a family, and have them take care of you until you could buy your freedom if you needed money and you were away from home. If you had a family, you could see them if someone was sick, they were able to marry, and raise a family as well, not be raped, and not have the slavemaster's child(unless they wanted to.) The servants were not property, nor could they be shot or hung at a moment's notice. Slavery as you are percieving started in America around 1639, not 1616. Most importantly, not all Africans are black.

Anne,
to have not lived in the black community, you come across as foolish to say...

"...I do have a question for you though or really any of the black people on the blog. I understand why the black community feels the need to rally around young black men in trouble based on past inequities in the justice system, but don't you think this is bad for the black community in the long run? If young men living "thug" lifestyles feel they will always have acceptance and support in the black community no matter what they do, don't you think this allows them to more easily maintain that lifestyle? I know one of the things that kept me out of trouble as a youth was fearing the backlash from my family/social circle when I screwed up. Doesn't it seem like this support the black man no matter what (how scary was Keith's post?) is creating a long term problem while trying to solve a short term one since, true or false, it gives the black community the appearance of having very low standards of conduct."

We have survived for 350 years like this, in your great wisdom did you think that just because one of us is guilty, we would turn on him. Just like Susan Smith was supported by her community. We will support the men in our community.

I have a question for you???

Do you not feel afraid when a big black man comes jogging behind you? Don't lie, I see it all the time, even the police stop to see what I am doing?

EXERCISING!!!!!

We are not promoting his lifestyle, we are supporting our black people, a lot like you and your nationality do when someone in your community is caught.

You do not say uncle George is a criminal and needs to be locked up for life because he made a mistake. You support him as you would any other family member, and you would hope someone would support you as well. Vick is a black man, and contrary to some opinions, still subjegated to racism from whites, even as a multi-millionaire. Vick should be judged impartially, not by everyone who is his critic. He will serve his time, but he needs support like all of us do.

To answer the second part, when every poster and their family, when society as a whole stops turning in fear, clutching their purses, or heighten their senses as to watch all of my movements to keep me from possibly robbing them or whatever....when I, or some other tall black man comes walking, running, jogging, or biking by....then you can tell me these actions seem as if we have very low standards of conduct.

You have nothing I want, I may like what you have, but I will to get my own---not yours.

Chuck
Susan Smith was supported by her community as long as she kept her lie going. Let's face it, women will get the benefit of the doubt in a situation like that. After all, what psycho mother would kill her own children right?
After they uncovered her lie, tell me who in the white community supported her? I was hoping they would give her a death sentence. Not much different than the Duke case - after her lie was found out, there continued to be a few misguided souls who would say that she was also a "victim".

Is anyone else embarrassed by the babblings of Roy Jones Jr, Stephan Marbury, Clinton Portis, the entire ESPN football panel, some of the people on this blog. It's sad to think that a few clowns will try to represent the views of an entire race of people.
Truth of the matter is that fighting dogs is very much a component of gang activity and drugs - MUCH more prevalent that what our suburban friends would ever realize.
Fellas - those are NOT Klansmen in your closet!

Chuck your off your chain homie. Indentured servitude??? Are you joking???? You are not fooling anyone with that history revision.

Egyptians had the jews enslaved for hundred of years. umm...GO READ THE BIBLE, if you dont take my word for it. NICE TRY DUDE.

The Kings in Timbuktu had slaves galore. Look, im not trying to take away the pain that american slavery caused, but, if we are going to go back into history, we cant just stop where its convienant for your argument. You gotta go all the way.

Truth is, while African Kings were using slaves to settle the Fertile Cresent and te Nile Valley to build pyramids and fight wars on their behalf, the Europeans were still nomadic barbarian hoards, living in caves, and just barely getting by. Dont even try me on the history tip. Youll get blown out of the red sea every time!!!

Chuck, you just set your peoples cause back 60 years with your last post.

Hey News flash tough guy...

I am 6'6 240 lbs, and white, and when i jog up behind a lady she CLUTCHES her purse just as hard as when you are jogging up behing her. Hey, quick question?? do you find yourself joggin up behing ladys with purses alot? IF so, You may want to get that looked at.

Chuck says:
Do you not feel afraid when a big black man comes jogging behind you? Don't lie, I see it all the time, even the police stop to see what I am doing?

I honestly think that some AA's take this a badge of pride actually. This gets brought into more arguments (for no reason) than it would just accidentally.

I really think that some of you brotha's take this "whitie is clutching our pearls whenever you are around" think a bit far.

I think single ladys feel that way, whenever a man is around (white or black or brown or whatever).

Its like a dillusional form of self grandier or something...

get over yourself. nobody is affraid of you becase of your skin color. The reality is, they are probably just affraid of you, because of your nasty attitude and the negative auroa you exude.

Hey...maybe...instead of walking behing her...run out in front of her and...umm...maybe try opening a door!!!!!

Get over yourself. nobody is affraid of you becase of your skin color. The reality is, they are probably just affraid of you, because of your nasty attitude and the negative auroa you exude.

Hey...maybe...instead of jogging up behing her...next time run out in front of her and...umm...maybe try opening a door or something!!!

Also, if you find yourself jogging behind woman alot, it actually may be warranted to think your a creep!!! Regardless of your skin color.

Also, at 6'1 240, you shouldnt be getting lapped by a little white lady. Come on my man....if your jogging behind her, you need to pick up the pace a bit. work that gut off!!

To put it bluntly, Southside Keith and Ernest and a few other Vick apologists on here are just exhibiting their racism in defending Vick. The racism they are exhibiting on here is no different than the racism that all white juries in Mississippi and Alabama exhibited back in the early 60's when they would acquit an obviously guilty white guy of lynching a black person. Those all white juries did not care about right or wrong, they just cared about saving one of their own. And that's all that Vick apologists today care about. Which is what I, as a white man who grew up on the southside, fully expected when this Vick case became public...............

Ernest responds: If you read my posts, which you obviously haven't, at no point am I excusing Vick for his actions. I'm waiting to see what kind of plea he enters. I'm also a firm believer in rehabilitation. I've made that pretty clear. Of course I'm going to defend my race! Why wouldn't I? Maybe you should take time to go back and read all of my posts then I'll accept your scrutiny as relevant. One last thing, the fact that you ended with your statement of how you grew up on the southside as a white man leads me to believe you have some deep-seated racial issues. It's kind of like the perception that most blacks, myself included, have that most whites smile in my face in the corporate setting in which I metriculate but behind my back their calling me the "n" word. Maybe I'm unfairly generalizing a lot of you, but it's a reality in a lot of cases. BTW, Vick isn't copping to killing dogs or gambling on dog fights, only that he financed the operation. And, what about his father? This is where you begin to have a lot of sympathy for Vick the person. Read the story before you judge the man and just imagine your father being as bad a person as this clown.

JT, Jeff, J. Rossi, and Dan I like that yall keep it real. I understand how you might feel that all blacks should get no support unless they abide by the rules. You are tired of helping them and folks sympathizing. You actually believe that people should not be supporting them because they "broke/break the rules". Arrogant, Violent, Ignorant, Thuggish, Rapping, Welfare, Panhandlers, lazy, Drug dealing, deadbeat dads, teen pregancy, Loud, obnoxious, gangbanging, theives - is probably all you see. After watching the news and all the negative press, I cannot blame some people for feeling that way. I see it also and don't like any of it. I wish my people didn't do any of that stuff but we do it. Its us but our community doesn't condone it. Its a complete insult to believe that we do.

But for all of that you see, the REALITY is thats maybe 10% of the black community. The REAL black community is comprised of beautiful, talented, intelligent people - who are like ME and many of the posters on this blog. Open your eyes and take a look around you - we are on the train with you and at work and in every facet of your lives. You see more of us in this world than you care to admit. For every Vick - there is 100 good NFL players. You just never see them. Somebody like Tiger or Barack, or Powell are just 10 second drabby boring blurbs. The news devotes a siren-filled 5 minutes for every "ghetto" story, complete with an ignorant interview from the most uneducated bystander they can find.

Jails are being built faster than schools, and 85% of them are filled with our people. The racial divide in this country is 70% white and 12% Black. That alone should tell you that things are unfair. In a just society, the jails would be filled with mostly whites since they are the majority. With what you see in the media, you would believe ONLY BLACKS break laws. Its because of injustice and many of the other crooked things that go on in society that cause people like me to defend Michael Vick. You see 12 blacks on TV for wrong doing and 4 whites and 3 of them go free, then you just stop believing in the courts and all of it. And one day - one of those blacks come along in 10-20 years and actually beats the system...and its "oh happy day good for you OJ". We as a people don't condone wrong or support it. When folks break the law we like to see them punished - BUT ALL of them.

Chuck, I get scared everytime a man jogs up behind me. It doesn't matter if he's big or small, black or white. The amount of fear and nervousness is greater or smaller depending on the circumstances, but unless it's broad daylight with tons of people around, there is always at least a little apprehension at possibly being in danger. This is a fact of life if you're a woman. While I'm not "wussy" by girl standards, I'm sure I could only truly defend myself against the weakest of men. I think this is a perfect example of jumping to the conclusion of racism when there's a better explanation. All those women who are clutching their purses when you are around are probably also clutching them tighter around white men too.

I know it was a long time ago, but I saw no outpouring of sympathy for Susan Smith. In fact, I think people were appropriately repulsed by what she did. If there was any sympathy, I think it might have been because people thought she was mentally ill. I don't think anyone suspects Vick is mentally ill. I think your argument is largely based on examples that are apples and oranges. Vick isn't going to jail for making a mistake, he's going to jail for breaking the law. Regardless of whether or not you think what George Bush (I assume that's who "uncle george" is) did was a mistake, it was not illegal. And NO ONE (except bculz) is giving him a break. Have you seen his approval ratings? He's become a disgrace to all but the staunchest of Republicans.

Finally, you seem to contradict yourself in your post. In the second paragraph you complain that "our own people snitch on us", which supports the idea that, even if a crime has been committed, you should not "snitch" to authorities if you are black and the perpetrator is black. In the next paragraph you say, "So it's not about race, it's about the crime". Well which is it?

Mark your post was refreshing. At least you are CONSISTANT. A killer should be a killer and treated with the same disdain and disgust. Some folks would reserve said disdain/disgust - for a black or white person ONLY and that is wrong.

bculzzzz said

Egyptians had the jews enslaved for hundred of years. umm...GO READ THE BIBLE, if you dont take my word for it. NICE TRY DUDE.

The Kings in Timbuktu had slaves galore. Look, im not trying to take away the pain that american slavery caused, but, if we are going to go back into history, we cant just stop where its convienant for your argument. You gotta go all the way.

Truth is, while African Kings were using slaves to settle the Fertile Cresent and te Nile Valley to build pyramids and fight wars on their behalf, the Europeans were still nomadic barbarian hoards, living in caves, and just barely getting by. Dont even try me on the history tip. Youll get blown out of the red sea every time!!!

Wow!! I can't believe you went there. First off the question was for Anne, and I was not just talking about jogging.
I was talking about walking along the street, and being stared at as if there is (feces) :) on my neck, as my brother
used to say, walking past someone driving the car and they mysteriously remember to lock their doors. Forget it! You wouldn't understand.

But for you.. you went there with the Bible huh!!... . Let's see, there was Joseph, a slave to Pharoah, who became second in command (only to Pharoah himself) of the whole kingdom of Israel. During the Jews first time being enslaved by other Africans.

Any slaves from the past 400 years become President of the U.S.? MMMM, this was not a history lesson, I am a Math major, this is a life lesson. But as I was saying, when the Jews left Egypt, they had families, were able to keep their customs, their religions, they owned property (talking about read the bible, try reading Exodus). They were not slaves who were hoarded on boats, sold as property, shot, killed, beaten, and split up from their wives and children.

This diverges from the point though, Vick is a man who needs support, and whether you like it or not, I will support him. I am no apologist, what he did was wrong, he should pay his crime then get on with his life like Martha Stewart, Dan Rostenkowski, and other famous figures like him.

The Susan Smith thing, what I mean is, she is still being supported by some in her community (how does she not get the death penalty??)

Mark said "After all, what psycho mother would kill her own children right? After they uncovered her lie, tell me who in the white community supported her? I was hoping they would give her a death sentence. Not much different than the Duke case - after her lie was found out, there continued to be a few misguided souls who would say that she was also a "victim".

She is still alive, so the jurors obviously still supported her, but some here want Vick murdered, beaten, and abused like the dogs he allegedly killed. How many wanted Smith put in the back of her car and pushed into the river?

Finally, bculzzzz said "revisionist history!!" Again WOW!!!

Who called the Native Americans "savages", who would not even let a non white baseball player play in the major leagues until Jackie Robinson. Who came up with Grandfather clauses and Jim Crow laws to get around the fact that former slaves should have rights, but not receiving them. Oh My Goodness, who has white people playing the parts of King Tut, Cleopatra, and other biblical figures. Who came to this land, and central and south America, murdered the people in the name of Christianity (do you need the names..San Salvador, etc.) Stole the land, stole the goods and sent them back home, taxed the people unfairly. Went to Africa, and stole the diamond mines, oh man why did you start me?? Revisionist history.....enough said.

How many times have you been pulled off your porch in front of the house you are paying for because you "fit the description?"

It is no badge of honor to be targeted because of your skin color, but like everything else in life you learn to deal with it, but don't ever bring up revisionist history again please. The U.S. is writing it's own history, and no person can truly say they have seen it all, so it is all revisionist.

P.S. The Duke case, brothers have been getting railroaded like that for hundreds of years---See Susan Smith, Emmit (forgive my spelling) Till, others. The LaCrosse players had enough money to pay for the truth, but the truth should not come out only because you have enough money....now I am dreaming.

bculllzzzz,

I do have to say, I reread your posts and they are funny. I don't run up behind them, but when walking downtown, you are always behind someone.

Also,

Being educated, I also have to be chivalrous as well, black, white, orange whatever color.. I open the doors for all men and women, but my wife always come first.

My problem is when I was younger in the 1980s, and smaller, I was getting the same stares!!!

Maybe even from you!!! (lol)

Oh, and Keith, good post.

Same for you Mark, like Keith said, at least you are consistent.

Keith - that's exactly what I'm saying. I work with people "like you" so to speak. That why I get troubled when I think I read that some black people identify or sympathize with Vick when I know they would never do or even think of doing anything like that.
For all I know, you're the guy down the aisle who I make small talk with all the time...I don't know. But I appreciate your comments here...

Culzie, I see your knowledge of history and counter with knowledge of grammar and syntax:

"im nausaus" = i'm nauseous
"affraidafraid
"dissagreeing" = disagreeing
"echo's = echoes
"Desparaging" = disparagement
"Leer jets" = Learjets
"appauled" = appalled
"hoards" = hordes
"convienant" = convenient
"whitie" = whitey
"dillusional form of self grandier" = delusional form of self-grandeur
"ladys" = ladies
"auroa" = aura (were you going for "aurora?")
"your off your chain" = you're off your chain

Fixed those for ya. *dusts hands*

Now, for a few more completely off-topic thoughts:

"I honestly think that some AA's take this a badge of pride actually."

Having completely undermined your credibility as a subject matter expert on "how black people think" by admitting you aren't, in fact, black, I'm going to hope you were being either hyperbolic or sarcastic. If this isn't the case, I will spare you the details of my theory surrounding your inability to notice something that profoundly affects a community to which you do not belong (thus precluding you from recognizing its significance) and simply respond with both hyperbole and sarcasm through the quip "your an imbecile." Unless you were referring to people in Alcoholics Anonymous, in which case I retract this entire paragraph.

"Egyptians had the jews enslaved for hundred [sic] of years. "

...and, if you'd been paying attention to history (if not anthropology), you'd remember Northern Africa (where Egypt resides) has long been the home of races other than those you would consider "black." I'm not sufficiently well-read to confirm or deny the exact ethnicity of Egypt's dominant population during the period you suggest, but cultural artifacts assert at the very least a mixture of sub-saharan "black" and proto-asian "Arab."

Again, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with the whole "Africans started slavery" idea. Granted, Chuck and Ernest probably shouldn't have taken the bait and presented incorrect information, but you've done nothing to refute my point--that this argument doesn't matter by virtue of the fact that blacks (and, to be fair, anyone else present on the continent at the time) are responsible for the beginning of human civilization itself.

"Hey...maybe...instead of walking behing her...run out in front of her and...umm...maybe try opening a door!!!!!"

Ah, Mr. Griffith, I presume? Loved Birth Of A Nation; cinematic classic.

Vick's lawyers were stupid to have him plea. They should have took this to trial because I am sure his lawyers could have got at least two blacks on the jury. And judging by some of the comments of some blacks on here how they are going to support their "brother" no matter what the circumstances, the odds of a conviction would be very small. To Ernest Frazier, I mentioned where I grew up so that the people on here would understand that I fully understand race relations in this country. I wanted to make it clear that I am not some guilty white liberal who is going to buy that BS how the economic and judicial system is unfair to the black man in this affirmativeaction era that we now live in. Also, if the racist whites are calling you the N word at work behind your back, how do you know this is happening if it's behind your back? Have you planted bugs or electrical devices at their desks to hear what they say? I think you believe this because this is what Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have told you what to believe. So I suggest you start thinking for yourself and also take this advice from me, which is that in the year 2007 and the year of Don Imus, white people would never even think of uttering the N word in the workplace. Because we know we no longer have the freedom of speech that you and your people have, so we know if we want to keep our jobs we cannot even think of saying anything remotely negative about blacks. As for Southside Keith, your comments about how since whites are 70% of the population we should be the majority in jails, that is both racist and comical at the same time. Look at the high crime neighborhoods and high crime suburbs in Chicagoland, almost all black. Now don't tell me you think that white guys are blowing into Englewood, Gresham, Austin, Harvey, Ford Heights or Chicago Heights and committing these crimes.

Just a quick update on Vick. In his plea agreement he says he never bet on dogfights, but he did take part in killing dogs. I post this because I believe someone on here earlier said Vick did not admit to taking part in the killing of the dogs. Just wanted to straighten that out.

Umm, Anne,

Maybe you are right. Depending on the circumstances fear is necessary. O.K. Again, I'm not talking about those instances, I'm talking about all the time from certain people.

There are white, latina, and oriental women who are very nice to me, very respectful, and I respect them for the beautiful women they are. They sometimes open doors for me, and speak and be very hospitable, I love that person. That was not my audience.

My audience is the man or woman who stares and watches me in the store, or the one who told me I could not afford a Gucci purse because it was $300.00. The stereotypical male or female was my audience, and as a black man I find out very quickly who is stereotypical and who is not.

Uncle George was not G.W. just a name out of the sky for someone in your family who has done wrong and is doing jail time for it, or a friend or relative. You stick together, and we as a people have to stick together to some degree.

The snitching comment: you referenced 2 points. First point was Vick's family. The second point was a general reference to people who don't know the situation yet feel compelled to tell the police what they think they saw to get someone in trouble.

Again, when cops stop pulling people over just because they are black (happened to me in Homewood, when I worked at the Post Office), or following a black person around for no particular reason to find something wrong then prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. When the police stop driving up and pulling teenage boys over and checking them for drugs (still happens). Until they stop beating and shooting black men then claiming they have a gun (black and white cops as well). That is when I will promote for black society to follow the course, and not just trust our instincts.

My stepson one day went out to my car to get a something for me, he was 9 years old. The police pulled up, frisked him on my car, interrogated him, and only because I felt like he took to long and stepped outside to see what was happening and realized this did they leave him alone. This was in front of my house. Their excuse was kids are breaking into cars all the time. He had my keys, why didn't they just knock on the door and find out. He doesn't like cops now, that is the racism I am talking about. You take a kid and pound him for 5 min. in the streets, only when a parent shows do you leave, after giving the parent grief as well. Next, you want him to tell on his best friend (hypothetically) about something stolen, you have lost all cred. with that kid, and if he didn't have a male presence at home, who knows what would happen?

That is the racism I am talking about. Vick will do his time, but it should be no more that what any other first time offender should do. The media also should not be lambasting him and convicting him in the court of public opinion as well, to promote their agenda.

These posters who want Vick dead should not be promoting this if they were not promoting the deaths of Ms. Smith, Rae Carruth, Leonard Little, or other criminals who kill people or animals, that has always been my main point. Don't just go after Vick, get them all.

Finally, the slavery comment.

The point is slavery has been around for as long as men have been around. American History is full of half-truths, hipocrisy(forgive my spelling again), slander, cover ups, and fradulencies. It doesn't matter who started it only that it's over. Yet, there are some whites and blacks who still are in the slavemaster, slaveworker mentality, and this clouds their thinking from the true issues. All they believe is that all blacks are lazy, or all whites are racist.

I went to Hubbard, I was chased home from school quite a few times as well, yet I have some of my fondest memories in school of my friends being Middle Eastern, Irish, Latina, and Lithuanian. The main point is Anne, if you are not AA, please don't say AAs have no right to support Vick, because it gives our community the appearance of having very low standards of conduct.

This is our community, we cannot say your community is this or your community is that based on our perception of your reality. Let us handle our problems like you handle your problems.

Hey Roman,

I thought this post was about Vick pleading guilty, how did it end up here.

And Jeff, who said I wouldn't convict Vick. But I wouldn't give him 100 years in jail with no parole, the chair (as some have discreetly asked), and I wouldn't take his job away if he came out (as others have asked.) If there was enough evidence, and judging by his plea, there was, I would have sentenced him along the guidelines of a first time dog fighter and killer. But, not how some of these people have killed humans, and are getting less time than Vick will. Or how some have multiple dui's and are doing 82 min!!!! in jail, or 46 days. If it was me I wouldn't get off with 82 min. (I have no dui so I don't worry).

The contradiction of the system is what bugs me...
'
Roman responds: These things always take on a life of their own.

Earnest...."deep-seated"? ...dont you mean deep-seeded? As in, seeded deep in your minds subconsious. Ask me next time before you try to use big words!

Keith, I am not picking on you, because you are my boy and all, but the fact that are country is 70% white and only 15% black IS NOT a case for how things are unfair. Thats crazy. You should say, that the fact that only 15% of our population is black, but over 85% of jail poopulations are black. That shows the disproportionate amount of blacks that have been targeted and thrown in jail, and usually for Marijuana charges. Thats the real crime here. The fact that young black males are been jailed for buying or smoking or selling grass. If you want to rally behind a cause, rally behind that one. Cause rallying behind a creeton like Vick because he is "one of your own" is actually hurting the perception of your own.

My only point is, choose your causes wisely. Dont waste your word and your support on someone who doesnt deserve it. No matter what color they are.

Chuck, I kind of agree with you that it's okay for a race of people to support their own. But that has to be a two way street, no double standard. So if me and my people want to support a white cop like Jon Burge against allegations, then don't complain about it and call us racists for doing so. If we want to support Michael Richards for speaking his mind, then don't criticize us for supporting our own.

I know this for a fact. The Irish didnt own any slaves. So I and my forefathers are cleared of all historical wrong doings.

So leave me out of your condemnation of "all white skinned people"

Secondly, hey...there was a black guy who just robbed a kwicki mart here in PHX yesterday. How come you arent running to his defense??? Maybe its that Blacks have sympathy and protect their own, as long as they are celebs or famous athletes.

Hey..finally...There is a Napolean Hill quote, that says..>"adversity makes you stronger"...i guess the second part of the quote should be, unless you USE IT LIKE A CRUTCH!

Every past story of racial injustice in the history of the world, will never excuse the next one!

Culzie, I see your knowledge of history and counter with knowledge of grammar and syntax:

"im nausaus" = i'm nauseous
"affraidafraid
"dissagreeing" = disagreeing
"echo's = echoes
"Desparaging" = disparagement
"Leer jets" = Learjets
"appauled" = appalled
"hoards" = hordes
"convienant" = convenient
"whitie" = whitey
"dillusional form of self grandier" = delusional form of self-grandeur
"ladys" = ladies
"auroa" = aura (were you going for "aurora?")
"your off your chain" = you're off your chain

Funny..i guess I was really trying to say...

"i'm nauseously affraid of disagreeing
with the echoes of disparagement, whether those be from ones riding in Learjets or those who are appalled by the hordes of foriegn owne convenient stores, after all, it is only whitey
who can have a delusional form of self-grandeur and for you ladies
with healthy aura's who never wanted to date me.... looking back now, you must agree, that you're off your chain!!!

This weeks, to much time on their hands award goes to My Cousin Darryl, and his other brother Darryl!!!

Lets man up here.

Put your name down and a yes or no, if you think Vick is a good guy and you would want him to date your sister!

BCulz = NO

12 pit bulls removed from home of rapper DMX
Mark Phillips
12 News
Aug. 24, 2007 12:40 PM

Maricopa County Sheriff's deputies say they removed 12 distressed pit bulls this morning from the Cave Creek home of rapper turned actor DMX.

Earl Simmons, a.k.a. DMX, was not at home when the raid occurred. Sources say deputies also found a large cache of weapons.

DMX is no stranger to trouble. During his 1999 Hard Knock Life tour, he was arrested in Denver on a warrant for charges he stabbed and shot his mother. He was later cleared. In 2002 he pleaded guilty in New Jersey for animal cruelty for neglecting 13 pit bulls. As part of his sentence he did a public service announcement against animal abuse.

I do not like picking on women, but your argument does not weigh heavily when thinking about it.
**

I know it was a long time ago, but I saw no outpouring of sympathy for Susan Smith. I think it might have been because people thought she was mentally ill.

Posted by: Anne | August 24, 2007 10:45 AM
**

This is an excuse. Why? Because she was not too mentally unstable to state it was a BLACK MAN WHO CAR JACK HER!! Why a Black man? Why not just a man? Because deep down hidden within her consciousness she knew it would RAISED the FLAG of ANGER-FEAR-HATRED in other WHITE people! But go with your story if it makes you more safer and happier.

Yeah, my brother has had lots of run ins with DMX out in Cave Creek...beyond being a crack head...he's pretty generous with his money to the general public..don't be afraid, tho..bculz..I'm not in the valley anymore...you can talk shizznit all you'd like...I told my brother to have fun, tho... sittin right behind you at the game tonight....waitin to see if ya show up...7 minutes till game time...

I bet your a big fan of Joe Arpaio...live in Surprise/Sun City?...Peoria maybe?....North Scottdale putz?

everybody that weighed in on the race issue...start your posts with..."I am very ignorant, but..." or remove the comma...and ignorant ass will be accepted

Mr Jack Armstrong I wasn't even talking about you when I said anything else besides I don't read the paper and that I've never heard of her. I was responding to Anne when she said that I scolded someone else last week. How did that resemble you? Read it again and you'll see what I'm talking about. I think an apology is in order. I said before that I refuse to say his name because he's trying to rub people the wrong way. Man, I thought I was touchy. At least I'm touchy on what someone says to me or about me. You,Young Jack Armstrong was not talked about.

BCULZZZ.Is DMX a point guard or center? Receiver or Qb? Ist baseman or outfielder? Why bring up another black man and dogs again unless you're trying to state something? He doesn't play sports. I've never seen you state any of the crimes that white people have committed. Since I've found this blog all you've stated was the negatives that black people commit. In the past few months there have been a few crimes or indecencies committed by whites but you gloss over them time & time again.

the question of "fear" of males, whether large or white or black isn't being specifically defined the way it should be.

It's not about skin color, so much as the attitude and the IMAGE you project.

if a young black kid is sporting urban "thugwear" with an attitude to match, even though he may be a straight A student with nary an impure thought on his mind, the PRESUMPTION will be different.

this pretty much works the same way with whites (although I am willing to acknowledge a racist bias against black males to a point)

if a Mormon missionary comes up to me clutching a bible with his crew, and Eminem comes up to me clutching god knows what in his thugwear with his crew, I'll be scared of M, who's as snowflake white as I am, if not not more so, a lot more than the Mormons (who would frighten me for other other reasons LOL)

I've seen Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley come into Chicago nightclubs with their "crews". Nothing even remotely scary about them, especially Barkley who is as jovial as they come. Now, if DMX came into the club with HIS crew, or Pacman Jones. Or Vick for that matter. Different story.

you are perceived by the way you PRESENT yourself. If you think acting and looking like a "thug" is cool - accept the consequences.

Anonymous,

That was the reason I used her. Funny how stories change over the years.

Jeff

Burge beat on a white woman, so there was no racism in my view (I am not white.) John burge is not the only rogue cop. I have had worse relations with black cops than white cops, my argument is not black or white. It is that Vick does not deserve a harsher penalty than a first time offender would normally get.

There are people who post that want the book thrown at him for no apparent reason. That is racist(or rude and uninformed) to say that your community is sending messages about having low standards of conduct when you have never been a part of my community. If you want to defend Richards and Imus for racial sayings, that is different than defending a man who has done no knowledgeable wrong to other men, only animals. Like I said, his plea probably means he is guilty, Would you say the same about Imus, and Richards if we had the evidence to prove the allegations about their racial comments were true.

What Richards said was racist, what Imus said was stupid, not so much racist, but he has a history of racist comments so he got the Tank Johnson treatnment. Vick was not talking about Jews, Polish immigrants, English, or Frenchmen and Spainards. He was funding dog fighting, and that does not deserve a life sentence in the U.S.A. He didn't say he hated any nationality, he did not kill any person, nor did he make a threatening statement to anyone. His punishment should fit the crime in America, not be given a life sentence for it. If it were another person, say Kramer, would you be so adamant to give a life sentence to him, or Burge, or the hunters who kill animals all "hunting season".
And sometimes not in season.

The hunters are killers too, let's give all people with hunting licenses life sentences. They are cold blooded killers as well.

Just making a point, no human life was taken.

And bculllzzzz

My last name is Curry---pure Irish I wonder how a black man from Chicago got a name with Irish roots, hhhmmmmm.

Roman responds: Burge tortured blacks into "confessions'' a while ago. The cop who beat the white bartender is someone else.

Chuck nowhere in my post did excuse Leonard Little by saying what he did was a mistake. What I did say was that he did not get in his car with the intention of going down the road and killing someone. I also said his sentence was to light and had the DUI laws then been what they are now he would have been dealt with more severly. My point was his intent compared to Vick's.

I was going to write a long diatribe on Jeff's post but it is a waste of time. It would be like Malcom X having a debate with David Dukes. The conversation would go nowhere fast. I only hope that you get over that racist view that you have of society. I did take one insult but I'll let it slide because I'm not into e-beef. Anyone here that is used to my posts knows that I'm an extremely free thinker. Jesse and Al don't get the time of my day. Now give me some, Michael Eric Dyson, Huey P. Newton archives, Malcolm X footage, Martin Luther King post 1965, Paul Robeson and Barack Obama and those guys do influence my thinking. Also add in any hip hop cat that spitting the poetry of the struggle and I'm all in. But, never try to box me in based on some perception that you understand what it's like to be Black. The first time you become Black, you let me know. As far as this being the Affirmative action era, didn't you get the memo? We lost that struggle earlier this year. It was only helping foreigners and women anyway. As far as whites not using the "n" word anymore. Google Michael Richards, Paris Hilton and any Quentin Tarintino movie. Like I said before, when you become Black and not just have Black friends, you let me know. Otherwise, save your venom.

Bcullzzzz(I hope I spelled your name wrong just like you did mine), I continue to wonder what planet you are from.

WOW - Goodell came out smoking in his letter to Vick! He sounds REAL po'd.
Vick paid his lawyers to come up with THAT? If his intent was to improve his standing with the NFL, he failed miserably. He still admitted to participating in a gambling operation, he was the leader of the dog fighting operation, and he helped kill dogs. I say it's 50-50 that Goodell kicks him out of the league when his sentence comes down in November.

Roman sez: "He'll be signed, and I don't think Raider nation will be that upset, depending on how Russell pans out."

There's not a chance in Hell of Vick ever playing another down in the NFL. If there's a single team in this league willing to shame themselves while animal rights protesters picket each and every game he participates in, (both home and away) I'll save this entire blog, print it out, and eat it.

Fossil find pushes human-ape split back millions of years

Aug 24 08:17 AM US/Eastern

Ten million-year-old fossils discovered in Ethiopia show that humans and apes probably split six or seven million years earlier than widely thought, according to landmark study released Wednesday.
The handful of teeth from the earliest direct ancestors of modern gorillas ever found -- one canine and eight molars -- also leave virtually no doubt, the study's authors and experts said, that both humans and modern apes did indeed originate from Africa.

Darryl, you were right about one thing...

Roman cheney did not shoot the man on purpose but he was trying to shoot the deer! i think that was the point keith was making!in other words white america determines how much cruelty is acceptable for animals as well as people!for instance the acceptable torture in Iraq !

actually the most high profiled athlete to go to jail in his prime was mike tyson!

Roman responds: I would argue Tyson was just past his prime, but yes, he did and probably still does have a higher profile than Vick.

brothers stop snitching!two americas, us against them!

If you people are so repulsed with michael vic,how repulsed are you with your grandparents and greatgrandparents for there treatment of black people !how repulsed are you at police officers for police brutality of black men!How repulsed are you at a president lying to go to war that cost the lives of thousands innocent iranians as well as amreicans ,wheres the cry for impeachment or even prison!wheres the cry for reparations ,wheres the cry for badges strippen away!white america can never take the morale higher ground on any subject so just shut up and look in the mirror!

Dexter, Not true, I posted indictments against Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton and Imus. Sorry charlie. I dont mind if you come at me, but get your facts straight chum! I posted the Story cause this is a thread about DOG FIGHTING! DUH YOU DS, also, It speaks exactly to what we are all talking about here. The treatment of animals. I mean, someone brought up Cheney and Hue Newton and Malcom X, last time I checked none of them dudes could cross you over like I could. Anyways....better luck next time.

Hitman...says "Yeah, my brother has had lots of run ins with DMX out in Cave Creek...beyond being a crack head

(how does your brother know he is a crack head? what kind of run ins are we talking about here hitman? like....wait in the car, ill RUN IN AND GET THE METH???)

...he's pretty generous with his money to the general public..don't be afraid, tho..bculz..I'm not in the valley anymore (this sounds loosly like a threat, are you a tough guy?)

...you can talk shizznit (way to stick to your guns on swearing roman)

all you'd like...I told my brother to have fun, tho... sittin right behind you at the game tonight....waitin to see if ya show up (why...is he going to try to sell me some crack?)...7 minutes till game time...( i was there, front and center...all 6'6 240...and I didnt see any fat loser crack head behind me???) oh well, he mustve swung by DMX's for a hit.)

I bet your a big fan of Joe Arpaio (TRU)...live in Surprise/Sun City?...Peoria maybe?....North Scottdale (YEP) putz (ITS BIG)?

everybody that weighed in on the race issue...start your posts with..."I am very ignorant, but..." or remove the comma...and ignorant ass will be accepted (You weighed in retard).

Curry, nice call. Actually, the Irish were used not unlike free'd blacks in the North's army during the Civil war. The irish batallions were often sent in first or used to do the dirty work, and often times the combined regiments (Blacks and Irish).

I cant answer with any exact certainty about your heritage, but my guess is, one of your great great great grandfathers and one of my great great great grandmothers probably hooked up on a little R & R. May she was a cousin visiting her family at the base and she met one of her cousins white soldier buddies.

Not really sure. There werent tooo many irish in the south and most of them were treated just as poorly as blacks.

Were you insinuating because you have an irish last name, that you mustve had an irish slave owner master 100 years ago? Thats a stetch!!

Nice Post Bogey!!!

and...Earnesto...im from KRYPTON

what about you? Planet Ignoramus?

brothers stop snitching!two americas, us against them!

Posted by: tyrone | August 26, 2007 12:40 PM

(Tyrone, you are the guy that I have been talking about all along. Im glad you decided to rear your racist head. So, now we can hear what it really means to "keep it real"

could you enlighten us on what Us,against them means?? or maybe Darryl or Ernie or WRD or Chuck, perhaps you could help elaborate??

Im all ears!

Thanks for clearing that up for me Roman,

I was talking about the cop that beat the bartender.
I don't know enough about Burge to comment on that.

Also, I have never said anything about Burge being racist, I just wish people would stop putting words on my name.

Maurice, are you implying that only white people are appauled with Vicks atrocities?

Come on man?? Get real!

You know Chuck as a former Military Policeman I got accustomed to helping everyone out. Never once did I get turned down for helping someone out until I stopped wearing that uniform. If I see a white person in distress on the highway or in the parking lot I get a no thank you every time. Not once has anyone black turned down my help because there isn't as much to fear when a T.D. Jakes look-a-like (the television pastor, one of the most harmless looking men on the planet) offers you a hand. I've never worn a doo-rag or any of those "thug apparells" in my life and I don't go out unless I'm properly attired but I get that no thank you even in a crowded Best Buy lot. Even after that happens so many times it hasn't changed my nature to ask because asking is still my lesson as a Christian to help out others.

I wasn'r going to comment on this but I couldn't help it. As a person who was raised in the south, Dogfighting is something that has been going on for as long as I can remember. I am 32 years old not and the goverment is just now trying to get a handle on the situation. Its never been a racial thing because black and white people have been involved in the blood sport. I really think this so-called outrage is overboard. If your gonna be outraged over dogfighting, why aren't people outraged at other "sport" at the exspense of other animals. My reaction to Vick is, he is stupid. Why jeopardize your carreer over something like that. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Russel just to keep the facts straight Dick Cheney was quail hunting not deer hunting and Chuck since you're so willing to hand out life sentences to all the "cold blooded killer" hunters shouldn't you also treat the non-hunting, meat eating public the same also for cold bloodedly hiring out the wholesale murder of cows, chickens, hogs, sheep and the like?

To compare a hunter killing a deer and putting the meat on his table to Vick's treatment of dogs is totally unjust.

Ernest Frazier, I never said I had black friends, but I do understand the race card playing tactics that are used by too many blacks today. Also, when you and your people stop saying you know how white people think, I will stop saying I know how black people think. As for Vick's sentence, I think he should get the same sentence a non celebrity should get, which would be about 18 months to two years. One last thing, I made a mistake in bringing up Michael Richards' name. Comparing Richards' to Vick was stupid on my part because Vick committed several felonies and committed brutal, insane acts. While all Richards did was say a few offensive words.

WRD, i am convinced, you make stuff up to fit your point.

How can you question me as a fraud....when you just flat out LIE!

...as a matter of fact, i gave you too much credit....
cause....I SEE NO POINT WHAT-SO-EVER IN YOUR LAST POST.

Bottom line is, that there are good and bad people of all colors and all shapes and sizes.

I am not going to sit here and let someone tell me that I do not like Vick because he is black. I actually...still like him...but, I am dissapointed that he F'd up his future and his legacy (whatever that woulda been) and his family's future and whatever. I am troubled, because a fellow athlete had it all, and blew it.

I am smart enough to recognize when someone has committed a crime. I would feel 100% the same if this woulda been Brett Favre or Tom Brady or any white superstar QB. No question.

Now, the real problem that this case has un-earthed is that some in the BLACK COMMUNITY (and i am saying this from an outside perspective) But some Black and Im sure...white people too, refuse to ackowledge that this is a crime and that he deserves to be punished.

I understand that there is pain and deep scars from years of racism and un-fair treatment....but are Blacks not savvy enough to know the difference???

Sounds like some of you in this post are not!

"The Two Live Stews" are the DUMBEST DUDES ever.

I swear, if they have a show, then Earnie and WRD should have one, because, at least Earnie and WRD have some grasp of history and some facts. (i say....some...with a grain of salt).

These guys are soooo ridiculous that they actually tried to compare Vick's case with Rodney Kings.

I have an idea...How about for the next 200 years, blacks cant be convicted of ANY crime????

Would that make things better???

Vick sounded contrite and truly apologetic. I do feel bad that he couldnt see past his "sphere of influence" and see that what he was doing was wrong. Hopefully, this sends a message to ALL athletes and to society, that no matter who you are, or how big your name is, or how many jerseys you sell, you are not above having to be a good person!

I really dont want to be characterized as the voice that sounds out against the plight of african americans cause, my heart does and has always gone out to those who have been treated unfairly.

It is truly amazing though how the sentiments of this blog seems to be playing out all over the country, almost post for post.

I just hope my disgust for what Vick and his cohorts did, stops getting miscontrued as "hatred for Vick" or "black people" in general. When that couldnt be farther from the truth. I love my darker skinned brotha's!!

Tim Little I agree. Somebody has to kill all the food we eat. In fact someone killed all the residentss in this entire land. We (as a whole) are not appauled at anything except a hand full of protesters/vegans alike. And I trully believe all of this "digust" is coming from racism. Big Willy addressed it in his earlier posts. The Feds are letting go the hands-on dog killers and there is ABSOLUTELY no outrage or protest about them because they are nobodies. Even the Protesters arent after these guys. No picketing, cameras or front page stories about any of these guys.

Keith, is it possible, that people actually focus on Vick, because, they never heard of the other three guys? Who all are going to jail by the way. Also, Vick, did admit his part in the destruction of the dogs.

Also, not all the native americans were destroyed, I know this because, I lost 200 bucks at their casino over the weekend.

Bottom line is, Man is half human, half animal. We have forever fought the urge to revert to our more animalistic urges, to kill, steal, rape, pillage, plunder, OTSS, take what is not yours, inforce and impose your will on the weak. These tendancies have plagued man kind since we split with the Monkeys.

The point here is, we need to be able to police ourselves in a just and fair manner. Social Contract Theory (John Mills) wherein we all agreed to give up some of those things (stealing and killing) in order to assure that they dont get done to us. It didnt happen over night, but we have moved a long way away from just roving bands of barbarian hordes, but we have made progress.

My question is, dont we have to draw the line somewhere?

I mean, some animals are killed for food, some for sport, some are used as tools, and pets and whatever. But we draw these distinctions as a society and we all agree to play by those societies rules.

You cant just throw out inane rebuttals to an argument and expect them to go un-refuted.

Dogs does not equal Ducks!

Veal does not equal Pitbulls

1800's Westard Expansion - does not equal 2007 society.

i would try to count up all the counter points that people dragged in to this argument to deflect, re-direct, blurr, confuse, play on our sympathese, pander, etc/ but i lost track, but none of them...take away from the simple fact that VICK BROKE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

PERIOD!

NEXT TOPIC!

Im all ears!
Posted by: bculz

Attached to each other nontheless...

back to matters that matter....
I still would like to know about the State charges he's obviously going to be found guilty of....State time?

and now... I hear Vick is gonna snitch...not so much a problem while he's locked up...he'll be in protective custody or with people about to be released....but when he gets out...he was involved in racketeering and he's a snitch?...with no witness protection?...that can't be good for ya

I am a newcomer to this site, but I was struck by Anne's question, and very much struck by the profound misunderstanding of how much race matters in our country, so I will try to respond cogently to all of the comments w/ one post. African-Americans (A-A), like I believe most people of color, look at any news event with a potential race-angle, through the prism of their own experience. It is not that we're "for" crime, it's that we're "for" justice and we're "for" looking at these news events with some perspective. The best possible way to illustrate this is by comparison to other news events: Should Michael Vick be banned from making a living after he serves his time (well-deserved time, I might add) when Mary Winkler kills her husband with her small children in the home, serves 7 months and goes back to her job? when the LA cops who beat Rodney King on an indisputable videotape were allowed to keep their jobs with pensions and benefits (until the federal case)?

Is it justice then for Michael Vick to lose his livelihood after he pleads guilty to a crime (not forcing taxpayers -- like Ms. Winkler and the LA cops did-- to pay for an expensive, public trial), will serve his time and will, hopefully, turn his life around? Saying we're "for" justice and fairness is not saying we're condoning crime.

When Mary Winkler's husband's parents, her church and community rallied behind her, do you also believe this was a glorificaiton of her crime -- did you think it was sending the wrong message to young, married women that the community supported executing one's husband?

When the police rallied behind their fellow, embattled LA cops, filled the courtroom with blue uniforms and celebrated with them when they were exonerated, do you think the message was that "police brutality is ok," or do you think there was some justification for their unyielding support?

It just seems that when it comes to A-As, many think we're too dumb to know the difference between commiting a crime and what is justice and fair. Many also don't think we can distinguish one crime for another. Anne's comments about supporting a "thug lifestyle" is misguided because in what community are you aware of its citizens seeking to protect the rights of young men tearing down their neighborhoods? One of the principle reasons the federal sentencing guidelines were revised in the 1980s, making the punishment for crack more stringent than cocaine, was because of the way drugs and drug-dealing ravaged poor communities, bringing unprecedented crime to neighborhoods. So, those community leaders -- mainly, A-A leaders -- in those neighborhoods, advocated for and supported those tougher sentences to make their neighborhoods safer. Does that sound like A-As supporting crime, thugs or drug dealers?

But more importantly, questions such as Anne's and the rest of you who appaulded her questions, are really red-herrings to put A-As on the defense about their race, forcing us to have to explain ourselves, when in fact, A-As are simply supporting "one of their own", much like Winkler's community or the fellow police officers who stand behind their accused brethren. Do those officers or that small, TN community have "low standards" too? Or are they simply sympathetic to the plight of the accused because they too have found themselves, or might find themselves, in a similar situation? Just as most police officers who support other accused officers know they would want someone to stand-up for them if put in a similar situation, many A-As know what it means to be prejudged, to be villified, to be mistreated. And it is through that prism that we see Michael Vick and we ask for justice and fairness. To suggest we do it to condone the actions of a clearly misguided and immature athlete, and then suggest that it leads to endorsing the actions of thugs and gang-bangers, is really just lazy thinking on your part, but then again, A-As are used to that thinking coming from "any of the white people" on this blog. . .(those are Anne's words, not mine).

Where did I lie about anything? 212th MP company Fort Meade Maryland. 293rd M.P company,Schweinfurt Germany. March 15,1983-March 17,1986, active duty. Look it up,bra. Better yet,give me your e-mail address and I'll send you a picture or a copy of my discharge papers. Lie about what? You read what you want to read and hear whatever you want to hear. Not once in any blog did I say that I sided with Vick or thought he was guilty or innocent or should frie because I just don't do that. I gave my opinion on something and I think I'm a little more aware about black communities than you may believe. Where did it become the Vick is my boy show. Where did I say it? You spend an awful lot of time bringing me into your conversation even when I'm not saying your name and ignoring you. Most people who are suspicious of another person's truthfulness is usually a liar. You act like a glory hog. You want everything to be about you. You've never slept on a topic because you have to be front and center and give your two cents even when it's off topic. I skip a bunch because I'm not exactly a complete sports fan and my two cents wouldn't enhance some topics. I save my opinion for what truly interests me. You do not. You just jump out there and never leave a subject to those who really know the subject. LOOK AT ME EVERYBODY. That's you. You have some jealousy towards me and everyone can see that. Let's see if you can go until next Tuesday without bringing me,my words or my anything up. You'd die before you'd forget about me. That's sad and scary. Tell you what BLOG KING: it's all yours. I won't waste another minute having my every word twisted so you can have something to argue about. I'll ask EVERYONE at my church to pray for you because I see MY prayers for you are not enough.

LeglEagl, I will shut up now because you said what every one of these people of color was trying to say. It's just that your words were truer and in better spirit than what the rest of us was trying to convey. That was saving the best for last. That was beyond elouquent. And it didn't accuse anyone of being racists so I hope it doesn't come off that way. Pure words of wisdom. Some things I ddn't think about and it made me think. Thank you.

Are blacks not savvy enough to know the difference? Yeah, you don't have a thing to worry about when it comes to being characterized as the voice that sounds against the plight of african americans. Yeah, brotha you are the shiznat. When a nobody commits a crime that outrages so many people(like this obviously did) they usually become a somebody. Those "cohorts" are still nameless nobodies.

Hey LeglEagl

If you owned a company, or was a patner in a law firm and one of your lawyers turned out to be a pedophil, would you be forced to keep him on your staff? Should the government be allowed to FORCE YOU to allow them to make a living?

I dont think so, that wouldnt be JUST (which is what your all about).

I'd love to hear your post, to bad that was your ONE AND ONLY.

Hitless, you crack me up! Where did you get your jokes from....1963?

WRD, if those who point the finger are the most guilty, then you are guilty of everything!But whose not?

Anyway...relax my main man WillyD. I wont F wit' ya anymore!

Say hi to BushwigBill for me!!

~b)

Enough of the beating around the bush with the race baiting garbage. Look at the facts:

Source: Washington post;

Jan. 28 Chris Henry Bengals Possession of a concealed firearm, improper exhibition of a firearm, aggravated assault with a firearm (black)
Feb. 12 Terry "Tank" Johnson Bears Aggravated assault, resisting arrest (Charges were dropped.) (black)
March 26 Dhani Jones Eagles Failure to obey a lawful command (black)
April 14 Shaun Phillips Chargers Suspicion of obstructing or resisting an officer in the performance of his duty (No charges were filed.) (black)
April 21 Steve Foley Chargers Resisting arrest, drunken driving (black)
April 23 Ricky Manning Jr. Bears Assault (black)
April 23 Maurice Jones-Drew Jaguars Assault (Charge was dismissed.) (black)
April 23 Tyler Ebell Bears Assault (Charge was dropped.) (black)
May 12 Reuben Droughns Browns Domestic assault (Case was dropped.) (black)
May 26 Cory Rodgers Packers Unlawfully carrying a weapon and discharging a firearm (black)
June 3 Chris Henry Bengals DUI (black)
June 3 A.J. Nicholson Bengals Burglary, grand theft, vandalism (black)
June 14 Chris Henry Bengals Providing alcohol to three underaged females (black)
June 19 Santonio Holmes Steelers Domestic violence and assault (Judge dismissed charges.) (black)
June 20 Jabar Gaffney Patriots Unlawful possession of a handgun (black)
June 21 Frostee Rucker Bengals Vandalism, spousal battery (black)
June 23 Cortland Finnegan Titans DUI (black)
July 22 Matthias Askew Bengals Disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, failure to comply with a police officer's order, obstructing justice (Acquitted Aug. 24.) (black)
July 22 John Gilmore Bears Trespassing, resisting arrest, possession of drug paraphernlia, possession of less than 2.5 grams of marijuana (black)
Aug. 5 Eric Steinbach Bengals Boating under the influence (white)
Aug. 6 Barrett Brooks Steelers Fleeing and eluding, reckless driving, driving at an unsafespeed and other traffic violations (blacl)
Aug. 25 Adam "Pacman" Jones Titans Disorderly conduct, public intoxication (black)
Aug. 15 Koren Robinson Vikings Drunken driving (black)
Sept. 2 Brian Williams Jaguars Drunken driving (black)
Sept. 3 Steve Foley Chargers DUI (black)
Sept. 25 Odell Thurman Bengals Drunken driving (Black)
Sept. 26 Terrence Kiel Chargers Transporting a controlled substance; possession for sale of a controlled substance (codeine-based cough syrup) (black)
Oct. 3 B.J. Sams Ravens DUI (second DUI in 14 months) (black)
Oct. 9 Markus Curry Chargers Domestic assault (black)
Oct. 21 Rob Reynolds Titans Domestic violence, assault (white)
Oct. 22 Bobby McCray Jaguars Reckless driving, possession of a controlled substance (The drug charge was dropped.) (black)
Oct. 26 Adam "Pacman" Jones Titans Assault (black)
Nov. 11 Khalif Barnes Jaguars DWI (black)
Nov. 11 Marcus Coleman Cowboys DWI (black)
Nov. 14 Fred Weary Texans Resisting arrest (Judge dismissed the charge.) (black)
Nov. 19 Antonio Bryant 49ers DWI, reckless driving, resisting arrest (black)
Nov. 27 Cletis Gordan Chargers Suspicion of DWI (black)
Nov. 28 Adrian Jones Jets DWI (black)
Dec. 3 Reggie McNeal Bengals Resisting arrest and drug possession (black)
Dec. 9 Deltha O'Neal Bengals DWI (black)
Dec. 14 Terry "Tank" Johnson Bears Possession of a firearm without proper identification (black)

I may have missed some...oh yeah Vick (black)

Sense a pattern here?

Hey...can we resume this thread on Sept 10th?

This thread is crazy. I don't know what else to say except I hope he turns his life around.

Posted by: LeglEagl | August 27, 2007 06:24 PM................this is an excellent post!

Bculz

I was not implying my family were slaves of Irish, I just left the comment out in the open to see how things can be taken out of context when race is involved.

Tim

I do not wish life sentences on hunters, just like I do not wish a life sentence on Vick, that was the point. As far as L. Little, knowing he was impaired, he should have called a cab. Once he got behind the wheel driving impaired, there was no accident (and I have driven after drinking a few times so I am no angel, but I have not killed anyone behind the wheel.) So I say, how is Vick's crime any worse than his. I don't know his intentions, but I did know what he did, and driving drunk is wrong(why I stopped).

WRD,
I am still respectful man, I call all my aunts "aunti", and my uncles "uncle", and I have nephews. My parents raised me with me respect, I use sir, please, thank you, may I, excuse me, and the like. I try not to curse around kids, and I never ever ;) curse around my grandma. I offer help when I can to strangers, society will not break me, but it still hurts to be looked at as anything less than a man, when you have a wife and stepkids and you are raising a family the moral way.

Oh and bculz, my wife even thinks Vick was stupid and guilty for doing the crime and tells me he should've "upgraded" his friends so they would've had as much to lose as him, that way no snitching.

Finally legleagl,

Anne was the main reason I posted, I am a huge Chicago fan for 30+years, and I was shocked by her comments, and blanket accusation for the whole community because of a few posters or whatever. If she was black and experienced the things black people experienced, maybe she would've posted her words a little better. But as they came out, it seemed that since we condone "thugs" in her eyes, we have a low standard of conduct, she should not have burshed our community with that broad a stroke. Just didn't seem right.

You just jump out there and never leave a subject to those who really know the subject. LOOK AT ME EVERYBODY. That's you. You have some jealousy towards me and everyone can see that. Let's see if you can go until next Tuesday without bringing me,my words or my anything up. You'd die before you'd forget about me. That's sad and scary. Tell you what BLOG KING: it's all yours. I won't waste another minute having my every word twisted so you can have something to argue about. I'll ask EVERYONE at my church to pray for you because I see MY prayers for you are not enough.

Posted by: William R. Donald | August 27, 2007 07:34 PM

Ernest responds: Why take the bait? This guy obviously doesn't believe half of what he says, he's just attempting to incite conversation. Take a deep breath and let him go.

Im ony reporting this next story, because it is literally happening in My backyard. (and appahrently @ Hitman's brothers afterhours spot).

Rapper DMX 'devastated' over loss of dogs
Leigh Munsil
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 27, 2007 05:41 PM

Earl Simmons, also known as rapper DMX, is "devastated" over the loss of his dogs in Friday's raid of his Cave Creek-area home, his lawyer said Monday.

"He's devastated," said Murray Richman, the rapper-turned-actor's New York attorney, providing the first reaction since Maricopa County sheriff's deputies raided the home and discovered three dead dogs, 12 others malnourished, guns, cars with non-matching license plates, drug paraphernalia and a substance sheriff's deputies suspect is some kind of drug.

"My client is totally innocent of all the charges here," Richman said. "Well, there are no charges."

Meanwhile, Sheriff Joe Arpaio said Monday that investigators are working to identify the suspicious half-pound of substance found in the rapper's locked bedroom.

The substance under investigation is suspected to be an illegal narcotic, possibly methamphetamine, Arpaio said. "Hopefully by tonight we'll have a result."

Big Willy, there is only one way to avoid attacks (especially false ones), and that is to simply not respond to them. The rest of us believe you. Culzie says things to you simply because you respond back, and in a way that says that what he said got to you. Trust me, every response is a chuckle for him. He is not even listening, just laughing. He feels around to see who will hit back and if you say nothing...he goes away.

I love reading your posts (and his when its not sniping). Don't let that stuff bother you man. If he ever shows up on the southside, maybe I will slide from underneath the car and cut the back of his ankles! LOL!

Legal Eagle - Good POST! When it comes to us, everything is black and white, and we are supposed to just say "well thats the law". But when its President Bush and Scooter-nem, its - wait - be patient - look the other way. Folks who claim to be outraged with such things - all of a sudden are silent and can't find a law!! They beat the BRAKES off Rodney King, and it meant nothing. OJ walked and to quote Jeff..."cry me a river". I could easily ask an Anne-like question "why were white people crying? This country stands for innocent until PROVEN guilty right? When people disregard the law like that don't you know it makes them look barberic? I mean what kind of society would this be if we did not stand behind the laws of our forefathers? If a man is found not guilty then the Law is the Law. (Black and White huh)

Anonymous' post cuts through all the BS when it comes to race and athletes. Now most of us white people did not think race was a factor in the Vick case until blacks brought it up. But since you did I think it's great that Anonymous showed the difference in behavior that white and black athletes exhibit. Also, to any naive white people out there who are confused about race. Take notice of how much support Vick is getting from blacks and hopefully that will clear up your confusion.

Posted by: William R. Donald | August 27, 2007 07:34 PM

Mr. Donald, do not let certain or a particular posters get under your skin, you are too smart for that. I comprehend your feelings when another poster constantly opposes your every word, but in actuality they are displaying respect for you. Your words are eloquent 90% of the time and this person wants that! They don't have it! Their words have meaning 50% of the time. In an inane way it can be identified as posting (professional) jealousy. They can only attack you to get attention.

This person is here to agitate, not to educate; they want others to placate their nonsense while trying to formulate a coherent thought when engaging with others. We all know NOT one single person has all the answers.

Bcuzzly – view how easily Keith Southsider peek your hole card,– The rest of us have as well, that is why others will not respond to you, yet still on a bad day you might get another poster or myself to play your game. The difference is it only takes ONE INSIPID post from you, and then I KNOW you are not worth a keystroke. NOW WE WILL PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR RETORT, and then EVERYONE will know what K. Southsider and myself mean.

I may have missed some...oh yeah Vick (black)
Sense a pattern here?
Posted by: Anonymous | August 27, 2007 10:48 PM

WOW...

I will say, that sports is pre-dominated by black atheletes. but, still......this is really a startling post.

what is this a pattern of? could the pattern be....Racist cops?

I wonder how many of these arests were made by black cops?

I still say that this is a large part due to BigFish little pond syndrome.

Oh..i didnt post those stats by the way...im sure Roman can back that up. I woulda been man enough to put my name on it.

Also...seriously, i could use a little extra praying for me. Thanks! Dont get too riled up guy, you've been a worthy interlockatuer. If its too much for you...I promise...I will try to keep your "name out my mouff"....for now.

(Just dont say anything tooo ridiculous, or step on mine cause, then you push the button).

Who coached up Vick for his apology...Rickey Henderson? It was laughable how many times he referred to himself in the 3rd person.
Mike - those days of adoration are over.

Keith - I don't think white people were crying when OJ got off...I think they were shocked after realizing that the jury must have been brain dead.
Don't get me wrong - props to Cochran for changing the case from a murder trial, to a case about a racist cop.

Roman responds: Prosecution didn't prove its case. Letting the defendant try on a piece of evidence? First-year law students know better.

Romo - You're right but despite the inept prosecution, the DNA evidence was overwhelming. The jury bought Cochran's end-around hook, line and sinker. He was in fact masterful.
Someone forgot to tell Darden and the nit-wit woman prosecuting atty that leather gloves will shrink when soaked with blood...I nearly forgot all about that disastrous motion.

Anonymous - that is mind-boggling! I guess add 1 more to the list...
Briggs (black)

Roman responds: Yeah, the DNA evidence was big, but it also was jeopardized by those unbelievably incompetent cops who handled it. That one took the blood home before going to the lab. That had reasonable doubt written all over it.

Romo - sweet merciful crap....the prosecution didn't prove its case with OJ?
They would have had a similar issue in proving their case to a group of pencil erasers.

Roman responds: I was like a junkie watching that trial. I even taped parts that I couldn't watch. There obviously was enough evidence to convict him, but Clark and Darden were just outclassed. DARDEN LET HIM TRY ON THE GLOVE! How could anybody be so stupid? And why didn't the introduce the slow-speed chase? Wasn't that when we all knew he was guilty? Blaming the jury is like blaming an umpire for your team losing.

I think the bigger issue of the dog figthing story is the gambling.

Also, there are other shoes that are going to drop. At least 5 more players have been rumored to be linked. Vick may have rolled.

In reality, neither OJ nor, Vick are really public menences. I mean, OJ, was a fit of Rage/Jealousy at best, there is even lighter sentances for killing your wife in hot blood. Dog fighting could be made a case, you know bad element, drugs, nafarius people. I actually think dogs are going to get let loose into the streets, and you are going to see bands of these pit bulls running the streets soon. Watch.

I think Vick meant what he said, but he did say his acts were "immature" thats putting it lightly!!!!

Bud - thanks for responding rationally. (Roman is right of course - and that was the real tradgedy) Folks WERE CRYING, but for the wrong reasons. They should have been crying about this crooked legal system that lets rich folks get off (which Michael Moore has properly identified). But they were crying racist tears. And that civil case was the equivalent of a financial lynching - and not the spirit of our law. The LAW and the Courts found OJ NOT GUILTY in AMERICA. For red-white-and-blue died-in-the-wool Constitutional believing folks, that is supposed to be WORD-IS-BOND. What we ALL "think" is supposed to be put to rest. That day, white America felt what blacks and disenfranchised minorities feel on a daily basis. And as they tore down his home and sold his heisman trophy - white Americans cheered. We could care less about OJ and his stuff. But we care that he did something historic - A Black man won in America. And another Black man (Johnny Cochran) matched wits with and BEAT those who believe and treat us as inferior in this type of venue. We were treated worse than Vick's dogs and are still thought to be sub-human by many. With every victory and every accomplishment - we say defiantly as a race - that not only are we equal in every way, but even the BEST in some areas of this society.

And Jeff, I agree with Anonymous's post also, but you are sending Anne the wrong message. We don't side with him because he is black (exclusively)...we side with him because as anonymous' post clearly shows - there is racism. I will say it again for you all - killing is wrong (unless you are going to eat it). What Michael Vick did was wrong and stupid for a person in his position (rich and in position to make history). But the outrage was over the top and hypocritical.

Jeff, HUMAN beings make mistakes. Race has nothing to do with that. 10 white people will do as 10 black people will do. Its no secret. Population is 70% white and 12% black. And when the jails are 90% black - that defies science/nature/logic and will break your calculator. Its downright INSULTING. And to encourage someone to support that is meanspirited and wrong (and not in the true spirit of the Constitution). Much of this has nothing to do with race, but what we are about as Americans Morally/Spiritually/Intellectually.

OJ, Jacko, Ray Lewis, Don King...all got off.

Hey...NEWS ALERT

Report claims former QB Couch was using HGH, steroids - 9 hours ago
1 NFL draft pick Tim Couch had doping regimens that called for anabolic steroids and human growth hormone, according to documents obtained by Yahoo.com. ...
Boston Globe

(It didnt help him much!)

If Vick rats out other NFL players that are dogfighting that would be hilarious. Although I am sure idiots will still spend their money going out to stadiums to watch these felons play. Bculz, sports is not dominated by blacks, as you said in an earlier post. Look at MLB and the NHL. So there are just as many if not more high priced white athletes who could misbehave, but they don't.

Culzie - If he rolls on others, I really want to see if folks are going to be as outragged with them, and if PETA or any of the other outragged folks will pickett them. What do you think? I don't think they would pickett them if their names were Wilson!

Jeff do you really think this is a case of - "whites behave better than blacks"? If so, do you really think that being white in America has nothing to do with the reporting and arrests?

Culzie--you're right, if I can post to this thread five times in a week, I must have too much time on my hands.

Jeff,name one black coach/manager in any sport who was caught driving drunk or naked through the drive-thru or any player besides Carruth who conspired to kill someone like a hockey player did? People of all races get in trouble but it's the black players who make the headlines. Ditka didn't get fired for getting caught driving under the influence and it didn't affect his status as a Icon in this city . Bobby Phills was killed driving too fast but the Cards player was killed driving drunk and too fast. Come on kill this "who's worse stuff". I just remembered those off the top of my head but if someone wasted time they would find out that white players get into trouble as well. You can go on and on and if that's the case let's go back to the days when all the players in sports were all white and doing God knows what because the media was nothing like it is now with being so forthcoming. Plenty of heroes from yesteryears were tying a few on and driving under the influence and also jacking their wives up and no one was uttering a peep about it. That hockey player was such a no-name that I couldn't remember his name if you spotted me all but two letters. It didn't make the front page or any parts of the sports page like a busted up Lambo did. It's a serious priority to dwell on some things and it's so easy to marginalize others.

Well...depends if you consider Carribean players black?!?!

and....Hockey is back?? i mustve missed that!!

I agree with ____ actually. I wont say his name, cause I promised, but I do sort of agree that Hockey is such a non-factor, that unless they were BlackHawks or stars on my Sega Hockey team in 1993 . I couldnt name that player if you spotted me ALL the letters.

I knew a guy who lived down the street from Chelios who said that with regularity he would go outside and find Cheli, passed out in his front lawn. He couldnt even make it into the house. With regularity.

Hockey is just redne*ks on skates!I mean...Mullets, sticks, blades, ice, football pads, rubber pucks, come on..im surprised, they didnt figure out a way to slip a possum into the sport too!!!

america calculate all the income and work generated form slavery ,or give africans americans ,thousands of white slaves for a few hundred years, and i mean your smartest and strongest! and take your children out of school and dont allow them to learn how to read and allow my me and black brothers to rape your woman ,mothers and daughters,yeah becky is looking nice these days all grown up what is she 11?and by the way change your last names to ours so it is known that you are my property boy!then and only then will the race factor not matter in conversations regarding sending a black men to prison!and when this is through we will pump drugs all through your impoverished and depressed neighborhoods! and our scools will teach you great we are and you are lucky to have us and be in such a wonderful country such as blackmerica now go over there and be a good boy and be quiet cause you have it so great!remember if you just shut and smile you 2 can be just like us ,but remember its only room for a few of you so you can't socialize with those others who come from where you do because they are bad people who just dont appreciate how great blackmerica is !

maurice...what r u babbling about?

I wonder what life in Africa is really like... Maurice T, you ever been there? You know much about the History of Africa?? If you had a choice...where would you want to live...right now...today...given everything you know about American life, and African life??? You pick??? which one would you live in??? Today?

I wonder if there are people who are so bitter about a time in history that they actually miss out on the opportunity to sease their own destiny???

i know i spelled sieze wrong, but i had a few pops at the pub!

199

There is a term called step-n-fetch-it, which was used to describe the behavior blacks had to put on like a mask to work in the white world. Blacks used to HATE that term. It was derived from another term called "Uncle-Tomming". White America might call it "selling-out". Blacks are taught to make it in this world you have to be better in every way. Work harder, be smarter, smile harder, dance faster, think quicker, and even pray longer.

I guess it might serve some well like Vick to sell completely out like OJ who was the ultimate "Tom". Vick had a LOT to lose. I guess I understand a little better today. If he had been playing golf - or fox hunting, he would have never been in this predicament. Assimilation is necessary and Resistance is Futile.

"Assimilation is necessary and Resistance is Futile"

let it go Keith...

Keith - who is saying blacks should not have their own sense of community or history? I think we're talking common decency here.
You're right...try fox hunting, or golfing...you know, evidently torturing and/or killing of dogs will get you in a bind every time. Must be a "black thing" right?

Hey..look at the Dbag Police Srgnt. here in Arizona who left his K9 police dog in his truck all day in 115 degree (150 degrees in a vehicle) heat from 10am till 10pm and it died. He just got Jail time. Oh, yeah...he is white ....

But guess what?.. Sherrif Joe Doesnt give a **** what color you are!!!Oooh snap..and neither does Culzie!! You may dissagree with me, but at least Im consistant.

Officer accused of leaving dog in hot car - Crime & Punishment ...A suburban Phoenix police officer is accused of leaving a police dog in ... Chandler police Sgt. Tom Lovejoy was booked into the Maricopa County jail on a ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20622619/
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