New home run king

Right! The only real way to protest is to not watch.

Im sure you can say, you would watch, but you hate to see it, but you really are still watching, at the end of the day. It has your attention, its theater first and foremost. Too much can be made out of records and stats. If nobody believed in stats would they still exist? Meaning...we are the ones who put the meaning into stats and records. If you watch and you still go to the games, you are supporting the "myth" or bying into the machine. Like wrestling fans. You know its fake, but you still cheer and froth at the mouth for more.

A tainted Clemens vs. a tainted barry = fair ball to me!

Right on Roman!

I am with you on this 100% maybe more.

I didn't even watch the replay.

And there was outrage when McGwire broke Maris' record. I was sitting in a bar in Hells Kitchen when it happened. Believe me there was outrage. And there was outrage in the press, and not just The Post, all over the nation. But like most outrage it faded, not away but just to a whisper. The Bonds thing might too. It would be a shame if it did. But you can't put an asterisk next to his name because everyone was doing it two perfect examples here. You would have to, like you say deem the whole era tainted.

I will never forget the stories my father told me about baseball.

Roman you are absolutely correct! I don't care what kind of cream it was. If he can cheat by using cream, then what happened to the rest of the cream users? I will tell you what happened to them: THEIR TALENT TOOK THEM AS FAR AS THEY COULD GO. It takes being special to get where that guy is today - at the TOP. Tip your hat, or get some cream and try if you really think that it works that well. Do you really think that was the only jar they sold?

Forget the NBA Draft. Lets just rub a jar a cream on Sweetney and the Bulls can win the Championship. Hey Ozzie, got just the thing for the Bullpen - Cream on the hand will make our entire bullpen unhittable. Cubs, the wait is over! Cream! Rex Grossman - put a lil cream on that hand and throw a perfect strike to Berrian every time! President BUSH, forget drafting soldiers - that cream should make super soldiers!! Go get em!

That cream crap is BS. It gave haters something to focus on. He should not have used it, but I seriously challenge if it really helped him. And I seriously challenge if people BELIEVE it helped him. Folks speak of this cream like its viagra!

As far as the comment as to the stark contrast in how we are treating the record that Barry broke in comparison to what McGwire did, I believe you have to look at a couple of key factors. When McGwire and Sosa (a minority) were blasting their homeruns, major league baseball officials and media couldn't wait to anoint them heroes and the "saviors" of baseball during the initial post strike era. I'm sure Bud Selig was so ecstatic to see happy fans and filled stadiums that he couldn't care less what they were on. It wasn't really till after the initial euphoria of the long ball wore off did fans start to question what was going on. I know that as people started to look at the stats and the drastic body changes, questions became more rampant. McGwire took his lumps. Brought before a grand jury and shamed into becoming a silent, pitiful looking specemin as he pulled the "no comment" card. I remember when Bonds was breaking the single season homerun record, there wasn't this much hate for him either. I think when the books started releasing and the steriod media frenzy took off, Bonds wasn't sure how to handle it. He became a defiant, egotistical jerk who would have none of it as people questioned his legacy. You can't single out McGwire and race and not mention that Sosa was a HUGE star of that era and he also did not have the hatred thrown at him as Bonds does. Unless you want to say its not a simple minority issue as its stems from more of a black-white issue. I've said I'm not a Bonds fan. I could have forgiven the fact he took steriods, it wasn't tested and many players took it, but to see his actions and not swallow this new Bonds where we says all the right things and I'm supposed to stand and clap, forget it.

Roman responds: Like I said, I'm not clapping either. And I think there was more hatred involved when he was hitting 73 than when McGwire and Sosa were topping 60. And I don't think Sosa played as big a role as McGwire. He had better all-around numbers for a better team, but McGwire was the HR king.
You're right, the book and grand jury testimony are damning pieces of evidence. But so was the andro. McGwire didn't take his lumps until the Congressional hearing, and by then, the water was chummed by Bonds rumors.
I don't know, I just think there's an underlying reason Bonds is subjected to so much bitterness, and it's a reason many people would rather ignore. I'm not saying it's the primary reason people find him unlikeable, but it's there.

I was at the game in Milwaukee where sammy belted out 64-65 or whatever, and believe me, at that time, McGwire and Sammy were neck in neck in who was going to get it. McGuire just finished with an unsurmountable push and sammy didnt get the pitches since we were in playoff chase.

Anyways....without one there wouldnt have been another, and without either, baseball would be playing in the alley with Hockey and Soccer.

I think the 800 Ton gorilla in the living room is....at that time..."STEROIDS MAY HAVE SAVED BASEBALL"

now...

it may bring it lower than before!!!

Keith
Yeah, Barry's head size and body mass grew because he rubbed "cream" on himself...ok. Hating him because he's abrasive and arrogant, I wouldn't waste my time. Hating him because he had HoF stats before 99...nope. Hating him because you think he's the only one who did HGH/steroids, that's insane. But please don't pretend that his accomplishments were pure. Why do you suppose he hasn't sued the writers of these 2 books who have hundreds of pages of facts on his detailed PHD use? Bonds was using stuff originally made for horses for God sake.

Look at the top 10 HR hitters of all time and it's becoming a chemistry project gone bad:
1. Bonds..nuff said
5. Sosa - remember Enlish yet Sammy?
7. McGuire - still not going to talk about the past Mark?
10. Palmeiro - wave your finger some more Raffy

Of course then we have Roger Clemroids moving up the wins list like crazy. His head growth rivals Bonds.

Baseball and its fans are rightfully cautious about how to take Bonds’ record. This caution should be fueled into a scrutiny about the science, economics and politics of sports franchises rather than an America vs. Bonds fiasco. First comes the politics of psychology. In a game whose myth is powered by numbers, not celebrating Bonds’ record amounts to not celebrating baseball. Somebody had to break Aaron’s record. We knew that the next generation would be better than Aaron’s generation. And despite the fact that Aaron was a more gracious king, we knew that the record-breaker would have grown up in different circumstances. That’s why Mantle, even with all of his problems, occupies a separate throne than Ruth.

Much of the backlash against Bonds hinges on nostalgia. About the way the old game was played, the character of the people that played it and that endless of multiples - the memorable era. However, nostalgia says more about what we want to see than what is actually there. We should remember a recent period when football and basketball were dominating national headlines and baseball owners were scrambling to retain their heirloom as the American sport. Owners wanted to see balls flying out of the park, so all sorts of modifications took place – to the ball, to the bat and to newly-built ballparks – in order to stimulate demand. In the process, they grossly neglected the fact that heads and muscles had grown beyond proportion – comforted perhaps by the fact that steroid was widely seen as unnecessary to baseball skill.

Then there was science. Things were changing, not because of age-old human hubris and ego, but because of improvements in molecular engineering. Much like the science behind nutrition and weightlifting revolutionized all sports in the post-Schwarzenegger era, the supplement market, with its precise balancing of acids, proteins and hormones, was revolutionizing sports. Baseball didn’t even have a real steroid policy until 2002 and that agreement had to be revised in 2005 as Congress was cracking down on Selig.

Both Selig and Congress have to share with Bonds the blame of a tainted record. While players are paid to be super-competitive and they will do just that, regulators are paid for their oversight function. But they do not always do just that, if only because they’ve got a few more powerful people pricking their ear drums than do the players. For example, the SEC struggles to catch up with the financial engineering of large capital and will parse the benefits and disadvantages of a certain strategy before deciding on penalties, taxation and the like. In the process, they build up institutional knowledge. Baseball should take note, lest science run ends around its touted ethics.

bculz is correct about the stats comments because I'm going to do it right now......Babe Ruth could still be considered the best all-around baseball player and most proficient home-run hitter because not only was he a winning pitcher, but he hit 714 homers in only 8,399 at-bats. It took Aaron 12,364 at-bats to hit 755 and Bonds 9,775 to hit 756 and neither of them spent the first 5 years of their careers pitching. But in the end, only the final numbers will count. That's just the way it is....no asterisk needed.

Baseball and its fans are rightfully cautious about how to take Bonds’ record. This caution should be fueled into a scrutiny about the science, economics and politics of sports franchises rather than an America vs. Bonds fiasco. First comes the politics of psychology. In a game whose myth is powered by numbers, not celebrating Bonds’ record amounts to not celebrating baseball. Somebody had to break Aaron’s record. We knew that the next generation would be better than Aaron’s generation. And despite the fact that Aaron was a more gracious king, we knew that the record-breaker would have grown up in different circumstances. That’s why Mantle, even with all of his problems, occupies a separate throne than Ruth.

Much of the backlash against Bonds hinges on nostalgia. About the way the old game was played, the character of the people that played it and that endless of multiples - the memorable era. However, nostalgia says more about what we want to see than what is actually there. We should remember a recent period when football and basketball were dominating national headlines and baseball owners were scrambling to retain their heirloom as the American sport. Owners wanted to see balls flying out of the park, so all sorts of modifications took place – to the ball, to the bat and to newly-built ballparks – in order to stimulate demand. In the process, they grossly neglected the fact that heads and muscles had grown beyond proportion – comforted perhaps by the fact that steroid was widely seen as unnecessary to baseball skill.

Then there was science. Things were changing, not because of age-old human hubris and ego, but because of improvements in molecular engineering. Much like the science behind nutrition and weightlifting revolutionized all sports in the post-Schwarzenegger era, the supplement market, with its precise balancing of acids, proteins and hormones, was revolutionizing sports. Baseball didn’t even have a real steroid policy until 2002 and that agreement had to be revised in 2005 as Congress was cracking down on Selig.

Both Selig and Congress have to share with Bonds the blame of a tainted record. While players are paid to be super-competitive and they will do just that, regulators are paid for their oversight function. But they do not always do just that, if only because they’ve got a few more powerful people pricking their ear drums than do the players. For example, the SEC struggles to catch up with the financial engineering of large capital and will parse the benefits and disadvantages of a certain strategy before deciding on penalties, taxation and the like. In the process, they build up institutional knowledge. Baseball should take note, lest science run ends around its touted ethics.

cry cry cry bonds is the best baseball player to ever play the game. he did it with less at bats then aaron and he did it at a time when the game became more competitive. im sure he did take supplements but supplements will not make a great baseball player.

Of course race is a factor in all the vitriol directed at Bonds; and so is his unrepentant arrogance. For my part, I still haven't seen footage of homer 756, and frankly don't care. Every era has its problems, as others have so aptly pointed out.

I was more impressed by Ichiro breaking the single-season hits record, and racking up over 200 hits every season. Baseball's had plenty of jerks throughout its history that achieved remarkable things. Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, Mantle, Bonds, and there'll be others...

Until someone on this planet can prove that the cream enhances your play or anything I will doubt the cream. Noone in their right mind would ban a substance that turn a man into super human. Fact is - it wont. Scientists are looking for this cream for PATIENTS!!! We should be a superrace according you yall folks. And Barry and his enlarged head should just be able to just take off and fly. Cream is on the shelf with the bayer and red bull. Let it go people.

Anybody who says/thinks supplements won't make a great baseball player is a jackass. Bonds was already a great ball player before he "unknowingly" used performance enhancers, there's no question about that. But I suppose he was so in the zone during the 2001 season that the fact that his home run total jumped from 49 to 73 is supposed to go without question. What a joke. Steroids help build muscle(thus increasing power) and increase bat speed to turn on pitches. Steroids will make an individual a better baseball player. Stop being ignorant about it

It's tough to dispute the steroid accusations, because for all we know, a ton of guys were doin' it. So I'm just gonna swallow this ugly pill and put it into simply used catagorical expression. Bonds was the leader of his (steroids) era. Hank was the leader of his era, and Babe was the leader of his era (but the most PROLIFIC of them all). All you have to do is watch the news, and there isn't much about this era that isn't negative. Cheating refs, sports violence, killer beaches, overcrowded schools, rapes, murders, wars. Think I'll go hug the grandkids a little more........................................................

No arguing that Bonds is the cream of the crop of cream users.

Jeffrey - Moises Alou used urine on his hands to catch fly balls and Bartman still beat him to the punch. Spitballs, juiced balls, corked bats, scuffed balls, pine tar, stealing signs, greaseballs, cocaine, liquor, anphetamines, etc. All of that including steroids gives you about as much edge as a pair of cuff links. All of those guys you mentioned haven't won not one championship - including Barry. Cream should have put them over the top right? And they testified in Federal Court and are all still FREE? Still not good enough right?

And those "big head" comments are as uninformed as they come. In a game like baseball where so many stats and numbers are calculated; somebody is going to LOOK with their naked eyes and say "his head is big" which is the equivalence of saying "the earth is flat"! No scientific data whatsoever. No doctors or even anyone that might resemble a credible expert. I bet folks have protractors and measuring tape at the TV screen trying to do math n stuff!!! Just pulling it out of the AIR. Barry has been treated like he has been convicted. And so many folks are spewing out factless lies and accusations, that Barry has just decided not to address ANY of it. AND NOW he is guilty for NOT filing law suits against them all. You get to the point where you have to ignore it. Barry has so many people gunning for him, that if he even said "hi" to each of them it would probably take him a month to just do just that alone. So he is suppposed to STOP chasing the home run record, - PAY LOTS OF MONEY to "answer" questions like "how did your head get so big"?

I don't know how you can avoid seeing a replay of the homer - it's all over the TV, not just ESPN. The part that sticks out most to me is Barry's son leaping out of the dugout with pure excitement and pride for his dad. When Barry got to home plate, he stood there with both arms in the air and his son ran up an hugged him. Barry didn't move. He did not put his arms around his son. That's unfathomable to me. He then went and hugged all of his teammates. Unlikable guy - yeah, I'd say so.

I feel bad for the players in this era who didn't use steroids, if everyone's stats from the last 15-20 years are going to be scrutinized forever. If we have to be skeptical of everyone, then I'm going to throw out a name - Kerry Wood. Big guy, nagging injuries, and now he's suddenly lost 40 pounds and no one's mentioning it. Hmmmmm.............

The thing is, lots of guys have taken steroids, but only one has hit 756 home runs - now 757. (As a matter of fact, the pitcher he hit #755 off of was suspended 2 years ago for this offense.) We'll never know how the game would have been without steroids - it's just part of it. If you want to continue being a fan of baseball, you have to just accept that the game has been tainted for a long time. But I do know that guys have to have some baseline of talent beforehand. It's not like the 'roids suddenly make you a talented athlete. But I did hear a former Balco guy on the radio say that they greatly improve your vision and hand-eye coordination.

What scares me is the thought of an evil scientist in an underground lab somewhere concocting new untraceable 'performance enhancers' (a term I hate - its not like we're talking about Viagra!) as we speak. Where's Underdog when you need him?

Keith

I want to make sure I have this straight...in your mind:
- steroids and PHDs do nothing for your peformance
- Barry's hat size is no different that it was in 1994
- Barry didn't do any of the alleged drugs in Game of Shadows
- Barry should just sit by (since he didn't do any of the things documented in the book) and do nothing while authors get filthy rich telling lies about him and tainting "the greatest record in professional sports"

Does that about cover it? Man...denial ain't just a river in Africa.

"Do you really think that was the only jar [of cream] they sold?"

Probably not, Keith, but I doubt any cream was sold to Aaron or Ruth. I guess denial is an easy place for the B*nds apologists to be right now.

Roman responds: I think his point was that there is little doubt that some percentage of the pitchers Bonds is facing have used cream or some other PED. Therefore, it's a more level playing field than just to suggest Bonds is the only one cheating. I don't think Ruth or Aaron faced juiced-up pitchers.

Jesse, can you guarantee that? Do you really know or are you just talking. Cause president Bush needs some supper soldiers. Its BS. Cause if it were possible other sports and the field of Medicine would be submerged in the stuff. And it sure would help a LOT of patients who could use some hand eye coordination.

Julie its not like we are talking about Viagra, because viagra actually works on all of its patients. Its not some BS.

Nah, race wasn't an issue...different timing in the baseball/steroid saga...McGuire admitting to the Andro was a smokescreen to what he was really doing....and hey, it worked

Barry Bonds..like McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc...should never see Cooperstown.. and there should be a big, fat asterisk next to every thing they accomplished....(**This record brought to you by anabolic steriods and human grown hormone**)

Deluca had the balls to say what Pete Rose did was worse...Yeah OK, Pete Rose is still the best player to ever play this game (I hate the Reds, btw)...He didn't cheat...and he's admitted to what he did....IF PETE ROSE ISN'T IN THE HALL OF FAME FOR HIS PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD, THESE CHEATIN BASTARDS BETTER NEVER BE.

And dont give me that innocent before proven guilty BS...my hat and shoe size has been the same since I was 18...I watched an old roommate do "the clear"...lol, he got it online...he made it every morning...Baseball made it popular back then to those "In the know"....BARRY BONDS IS A CHEATER AND DESERVES WHAT CHEATERS GET..

Here, let me help you out with the translation on what Hank Aaron said...''It is a great accomplishment which requires skill, longevity and determination,''...skill, yes Barry has that....longevity...only because of the roids and hgh.....determination....what led Barry Bonds to cheating...

The NBA, Barry Bonds, Pro Wrestling, Weapons of Mass Destruction, your wife's new boobs.....it's all fake...What does that say about America?

Wonder bra sales are up and who is this Ken Griffey Jr. person?

Roman responds: This hat size stuff is getting a lot of mileage. When I first heard it, I was taken aback too. Then I saw Bonds say his hat size hasn't changed. Of course, his face looks different from when he was younger. But there has been no proof that I know of that his hat size changed. Yet people talk about it like it's gospel.

Jack, its ok to have your doubts. We all have them. But if this CREAM was soooooooo effective - where are the 30 extra home runs from everyone else? Folks are calling this the steroids ERA, so that means at least 5 guys per team right? There should have at least been one other guy like Barry. And there was 2 - their names are Aaron and Ruth. Go ahead and start your A-rod bashing now because he is going to catch Barry. I think one of his eyes are bigger than last week...

Jeffrey where is your proof?
Ever measure Barry's head? (or even your own)
Steroids do as much as red BULL - unless baseball players are somehow immune to them - cause as far as I see Barry seems to be the only one they work on.
If Barry actually went to Federal Court - would it change how people feel? OOOOOH he already went to court!
And I guess you are Innocent until proven guilty in America! my eye!

Babe was the leader of his era (but the most PROLIFIC of them all). All you have to do is watch the news, and there isn't much about this era that isn't negative. Cheating refs, sports violence, killer beaches, overcrowded schools, rapes, murders, wars. Think I'll go hug the grandkids a little more........................................................

Posted by: Anthony Navarro | August 8, 2007 09:37 PM

I guess Jim Crow, Segregation, Lynching, the KKK and other sorts of bad behavior this society once condone does not count in your world, huh? Want to know what your society was doing during this era, review the link! http://homicide.northwestern.edu/crimes/raceriot/

I guess World War I & II is just a small footnote in history far as wars go too, huh? I guess Hitler and Stalin were beautiful people in your book I presume? Want to know about killer beaches, review the link. http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/2/79.02.04.x.html

Sure go hug the grandkids and pass the illiteracy of hatred on.

Oh yeah, Babe Ruth and anyone else who played the game of baseball before 1947, their stats should be obliterated from the records books. Why? They played in a watered down league and everyone knows it. When it comes to hitters, none of them faced the best pitchers of that time. Presently we have middle relievers, closers (you do know the specialists who are paid big money to strike ONE or TWO players out in a particular inning. They have fresh arms coming out of the bullpen, NOT tired ones after six, seven or eight innings of pitching in a particular era. Therefore, Babe’s record is nothing compared to what Mr. Bonds has faced. Is that why Babe looks out of shape in contrast to Mr. Bonds, and everyone is up in arms about it? Everyone can trash Mr. Bonds’ but HE BROKE THE DAMN RECORD anyway! So he stands alone in comparison to others.

Funny how a segregated league eventually decides to compete openly and two Black men surpassed the alleged great Babe Ruth, with ease though facing adversity which neither he nor most white posters would understand. People continuously point to the lesser hits it took for Babe to achieve it, but no one does not speak of the short field in Yankee stadium nor the fact individuals pitched the entire game and on shorter rest. Yeah right, tell me again it is not about skin color and I got a three dollar bill I have been using to pay for items.

As I stated previously pass the illiteracy on, no wonder America is falling to the wayside, and we do not know how to come together as one nation and stop it. We would whether lie then seek truth!

For the sake of all this CREAM argument:

- Do we know that Barrys' mystery cream really existed or was that just a smokescreen or addition to the real culprit.

- If it was just the cream he used, unknowingly containing whatever, do we have medical proof whether it absorbs into the blood system the same as tablet or injection.

Anyone?

Roman responds: Well, the chemist who designed the stuff said it's a steroid and Bonds knew what it was.

As long as our President was mentioned; You might find it interesting what he said to Neil Cavuto of Fox about Bonds and the cream.

"My only advise to people is ta just let history... um let history be the judge. Lets find out the facts and um and then everybody's opinion, one way or another will be, you know, verified or not verified, in the mean time however, it is appropriate to recognize.. this man can hit the baseball!!"

Yes he can!!!!

Barry thought it was cool that Jr. called him.

Julie B, how dare you besmirch the good name and reputation of Kerry Wood with your veiled implication that maybe he was using illegal supplements. When he struck out 20 Astros in 1998, he was just a skinny kid, as I had met him at the previous Cub Convention. His first surgery occurred as a result of the "slurve" he threw. Try having complicated surgery like that and not have recurring problems, especially when your manager works you to the bone in his quest for a pennant (see 2003). His weight loss was orchestrated by his wife, who happens to be into fitness and health issues, and ultimately will make him into a better, more well-conditioned athlete who won't have those "nagging injuries" any longer.

Babe may not have been juiced, but he was juiced up for sure. Back then, they probably just drank and hit the snuff box. Who knows what the hell those guys were taking. Back then everything was legal too, so, there was no accountability. They were probably doing snuff, drinking, popping pills, codine, morphine, opium, whatever they could.

Speak easy's were often freaquented by pro baseball players. I new a guy who was a bartender in a speak easy in Evanston back in the early 1900's and he said...ALL THE OLD CUBS would come in there.

People who look back on the players of yesterday as if they are perfect immortals are the ones who are REALLY fooling themselves.

Give Credit When It Is Due -- Haters!

I agree that as a white man I cannot possibly understand the magnitude of hate Aaron faced. Aaron will always be the HR king in my mind as long as they keep making PHDs that cannot be found in a drug test.
But exactly what adversity did B*nds face that he didn't bring on himself?

Hank Aaron should have been there. There was no excuse for him not to attend. Yes, it's probably true that Barry Bonds took steriods. That's the reality of the modern sports era. Barry will not be kicked out of baseball because the Executives understand that Barry is a bankable character. Even the morons who sit in the stands holding "asterisk" signs still paid full price for an admission ticket.

As far as racism is concerned, I find the Micheal VIck chew toy far more racist. These look just like the racist charicature figures that used to be produced in the 1800s. Why are these people getting so worked up about a couple of dogs being killed in America? How many millions of innocent dogs have ended up homeless or dead in Iraq after their owners' homes were destroyed during our military's "Shock and Awe"? How many Iraqis are forced to make a living fighting dogs and other animals because there is no work available for them? Why aren't PETA and all of these socially-concious fools shining a light on [i]that[/i] dark crevice?

Roman responds: That's a flawed argument. That's like saying, people get killed in Iraq, so why should we care if people get killed here. If it's wrong, it's wrong. We can do something about it here.

Here ya go, Roman...sorry, normally I back up what I say with data..but in concerns to HGH, hat size, feet size, side effects, etc...I'll go with the Mayo clinic on this one

The most common side effect of the excess use of HGH is acromegaly. This is a medical condition that begins with the overgrowth of facial bone and connective tissue, leading to a changed appearance due to protruding jaw and eyebrow bones. This condition also leads to an abnormal growth of the hands and feet with an increased growth of hair all over the body. Contrary to increasing your life, this condition will shorten life expectancy considerably.

And I don't think I can get any more credible than this...

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acromegaly/DS00478/DSECTION=3

Roman responds: I think my question was what proof do you have Bonds' hat size increased.

When Barry got to home plate, he stood there with both arms in the air and his son ran up an hugged him. Barry didn't move. He did not put his arms around his son. That's unfathomable to me.

Posted by: Julie B. | August 9, 2007 08:49 AM

I had to re-read your post several times to make sure you were not ragging on Barry. You were, yet you brought in other players as well.

Julie B. darling, remember watching Michael Jordan winning the first of the Chicago Bulls championships? What was the first thing he did? He grabs the basketball, fell to the floor and hugged it tightly. He would not let it go!! He had tried so hard for so many years to get the ultimate prize, and after finally achieving it, the only thing he could do was HUG THE BASKETBALL and cry! Eventually he hugged his teammates and coach. BUT HE DID NOT WANT TO LET GO OF THE BASKETBALL! Now in contrast, think of Barry the unlikable (by the media) and Michael the loveable (by the same media) and ask yourself, why you think when Barry got to home plate he just held his arms in the air. It had nothing to do with not acknowledging his son. IT HAD TO DO WITH THE GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT which so many in the media and public opinion did not want him to achieve. He simply was showing the baseball critics, I DID IT!

I will never know the feeling of being harass to the point he has been, but I do understand the competitive spirit in a person. He did not ignore his son.

The word in the NBA was a scoring champ had never won an NBA title. Michael had to live with that, but he not only led the league in scoring, he finally got the damn elusive championship. Think about it, Barry has been harassed even for breaking the single season home run record. The man was simply saying “I AM THE BEST IN THIS ONE AREA, for the moment” the same as Jordan did when standing on tables after wining championships. Let the man enjoy his moment.

Walter Payton’s record was broken and eventually this one will too. Why can’t we just be HAPPY for Barry regardless of the noise in the background, JUST FOR ONE LONG MINUTE?

Roman responds: To be honest, I noticed him not hugging his son back, too. Maybe his son was trying to hone in on his dad's moment for selfish reasons. Maybe Bonds is a jerk who didn't want anyone else in the shot.

So Keith, if the steroids do nothing to enhance your performance, then why do so many ball players take them?

Did you guys see espn.com today? This article really struck a chord with me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2960455

Roman: In rebuttal to your response to my post, I don't see it as Keith stating that Bonds is playing on a level playing field as a great percentage of players may be using steriods; rather, I see it as an argument that Bonds achieved the record on talent alone. It's clear this is the intent in the statement "He should not have used it, but I seriously challenge if it really helped him." Additionally, he supports this in his next post, which states "Steroids do as much as red BULL - unless baseball players are somehow immune to them - cause as far as I see Barry seems to be the only one they work on." Apparently Keith never followed the career of Raffy Palmeiro.

Roman: In rebuttal to your response to my post, I don't see it as Keith stating that Bonds is playing on a level playing field as a great percentage of players may be using steriods; rather, I see it as an argument that Bonds achieved the record on talent alone. It's clear this is the intent in the statement "He should not have used it, but I seriously challenge if it really helped him." Additionally, he supports this in his next post, which states "Steroids do as much as red BULL - unless baseball players are somehow immune to them - cause as far as I see Barry seems to be the only one they work on." Apparently Keith never followed the career of Raffy Palmeiro.

I always laugh when posters like to take their rantings way off-topic. Mr. "Give Credit", where in the heck in Anthony Navarro's post does he paint the first half of the 20th Century as Grover's Corners and state that there was no hate, pain or suffering? Seriously, where did you get that from???? As for your comment that its all about skin color, it's pretty much been established that Aaron was a man of color, and that a lot of people feel he's the one getting screwed by Bonds taking his title. I guess if facts like that don't support one's rantings, one is better off just focusing on trying to detract from Ruth's accomplishments rather than addressing the issue of whether Bonds cheated. Perhaps you'd prefer to post at Mary Mitchell's blog.

"Apparently Keith never followed the career of Raffy Palmeiro."

or Sammy Sosa, or Mark McGuire...in total, in the last 10 years, these 4 a$$ clowns have made it into the top 10 in all-time HRs.

But roids have nothing to do with it...Keith, do you also believe in the Easter Bunny? Loch Ness Monster?

"So Keith, if the steroids do nothing to enhance your performance, then why do so many ball players take them?"

Anne - don't bother. Keith would argue hememently that in fact, a tree doesn't make noise when it falls and nobody is around.

Roman responds: Then tell me this, where are Neifi Perez's home runs?

Good point Anne. And why would they bother to go to such great lengths to cover up what they're doing if it was nothing more effective than Red Bull?

Bonds was the best of the steroid case hitters in an era that is incredibly favorable to hitters and superstars. Yay. His record will be broken relatively quickly, even without the help of steroids, because we are in the "live ball" era. The game is different now, and we all know it.

As far as race goes, Bonds is not hated because he is black. He is hated because he is perceived as a jerk and a cheater. Actually, the only racism here is reverse-racism, much like what occured with the O.J. thing. Many in the black community supported O.J. because he was black, even though he had killed a woman. Now, perhaps many in the black community support Bonds, even though he is an unlikeable cheater. I can't explain this phenomenon, but it has troubling implications.

Oh, and btw, Mark McGwire and co. didn't save baseball. The fans saved baseball by refusing to attend games after the strike - this sent a message that strikes won't be tolerated by baseball fans, and when the fans started feeling like players and management understood this they flocked back to the park. Baseball was never really in danger - it was the extreme love of baseball that made Americans hate the MLB organization so badly for betraying them.

Roman responds: So no one hates Barry Bonds because he's black?!?!? Good lord. I should email you some of the posts I haven't run.

Give Credit When It Is Due -- Haters! Brother, you have some real issues. What you feel was wrong with other eras is your biz. I was writing about this one in particular. Don't go writing like you think you know me and my thoughts, cause you have no clue. The mirror is your only enemy right now. Stay out of my reflection and review yours. I knew just by your sign-off things weren't right with you, and I'm going to hug my grandkids again and pray they never have hatred or ignorance, because it's not fun to even READ the stuff.

Anne, ball players will do ANYTHING they "think" will give them an edge. Jermaine Dye is wearing his socks up to his knees right now because he "thinks" its helping him! HE WAS AN MVP candidate last year. They will do ANYTHING. And if some guy walks up to them with a jar of cream saying its going to give them an edge, they will rub it and drink it! Especially if they improve. And they will keep rubbing until their lil hot streak is over.

If you give the stuff to 1000 men and only 4 show "improvement" (and ONLY for one year mind you), then is it likely that the stuff is working??? Now Viagra on the other hand works 95% of the time! Asprin works! Cough Syrup works! Penicillin Works! The PROOF is in the patients/results. You are not going to point to only 1 guy or 4 guys and say this stuff works - ESPECIALLY WHEN that one guy is still hitting. This is science 101 folks. Two OTHER men before Barry reached this platteau - so I am not spooked by what I see. You need to ask yourselves why you are so willing to accept what FACT and SCIENCE does not support?

Don't listen to some disgruntled media folks who are angry because Barry would not "step-and-fetch-it" for them. These same KIND of individuals - helped keep Josh Gibson out of the big leagues. Josh Gibson was BETTER than Babe. He is the silent little secret that folks never discuss. Yeah Jackie Robinson was first to break in, but where do you think he came from? He was CHOSEN because he was the right kind - malleable.

Roman responds: Then tell me this, where are Neifi Perez's home runs?

Let's try and be a little more parochial Romo. Has anybody suggested stroids/HGH can make a bad player like Perez great? Bonds was great before 1998 when this started.
Let's limit this to Bonds for a sec...It's easy - do you believe he put this stuff into his body or not? Do you believe the stuff in Game of Shadows or not? Do you think it was purely him getting better in his mid 30s and launching HRs at a pace like no payer has EVER done at that age, or not?

Roman responds: I think he did all of that, and I think it helped him. Not sure how much, but I'll agree it was significant. I've never denied that.
What I'm saying is that lost in this hysteria are a couple of factors I think are relevant:
1. Bonds has been facing pitchers who have been juiced. Aaron and Ruth didn't.
2. Much of this hand-wringing over Bonds is racially motivated. I don't know how much, but I'll say it's significant.

Roman responds: So no one hates Barry Bonds because he's black?!?!? Good lord. I should email you some of the posts I haven't run.

Yes, Romo - there are people who hate others because of the color of their skin, both black and white.

The point is that many have tried to turn this into race issue - race is and will continue to be a problem for some in this country. So is accountability and trying to make everything an issue about race - just ask Sheffield about that.

If you want to stick your head in the sand on Bonds and other cheaters in baseball...so be it. Your point on old Nefi is comical.

Roman responds: You said he's not hated because he's black. I can show you emails that call him the n-word. Your statement is comical. Now, if your point is that he's also hated for being a cheater and a jerk, then that's fine, and I'll agree with that. But don't tell me race has nothing to do with why he's hated.
And why is the Neifi comical? It shows that steroids do not make players great. Do they help, absolutely.

Keith, I get your argument and think it has some merit. I agree that if you don't have a heck of a lot of talent, the steroids alone won't make you a superstar, however, I do believe they can turn a "very good" player into a "great" player. (Especially when we are measuring the "greatness" of a player by how many home runs they have hit.) I don't think anyone here is denying that Bonds would have been a great player with or without the steroids. They are simply doubting whether he could have hit as many home runs as he did without them.

As far as "fact and science", steroids are scientifically proven to increase muscle mass. The more muscle you have, the more likely you are to be able to hit the ball far. This is why you rarely see skinny men hitting clean-up. In the area of home run hitting, which is the main area being discussed here, more muscle does give you an advantage. Why are you so unwilling to accept that?

The race thing is ridiculous. While there will always be a small percentage of people who judge everything by skin color, they are not representative of the masses and are not responsible for the outcry against Bonds. Many, many black ballplayers are beloved by the fans. I have no doubt that if it were Jermaine Dye or Derrek Lee breaking the record, they would be embraced by fans of all colors (as they are now). Bonds is unlikeable. People don't like to see unlikeable people succeed. I think it's as simple as that.

How come they say in baseball..

"if your not cheating, your not trying" ??

uhh....what a joke...baseball is border line an illision....its theater. Its turning into the Radar vs. the Radar Detector situation. For every rule and test that baseball comes up with, someone developes a cream or a clear or something that helps you beat the system. Its human nature. If there is that much money in sports, your crazy to think that people wont try to find that edge. Even Mark Grace said, he woulda taken steroids.

Also, i know sammy and mac daddy saved baseball, because....I had given up on it, so, if it wasnt for that it would be dead to me. Thusly, it was saved in MY BOOK.

Maybe Nefie has been rubbing the cream in the wrong place!!!

Thomas....what does...."hememently" mean?

Romo - don't understand your comment above. You start this by saying you think Barry "cheated"..then further down you essntially say if PHDs are the end-all, why it doesn't work for Nefi Perez.

Assume there's some cynicism there but hard to pick up in print...

One of the better blogs ever and only 40 into it. Can there be a more polarizing figure in sports? Pretty amazing too how everyone gets "branded" here based on their skin color. I'm white and it appears I'm (and my parents, grandparents, great grandparents...) the reason why people hate Bonds, kept Josh Gibson out of baseball, why Michael Vick has been suspended, why Mark McGuire got a free pass, etc, etc. Sport and race....let's add religion and politics to the fray.

Roman responds: I just wanted to point out that while I do think Bonds cheated, steroids don't make someone great. And I also want to point out that Bonds has been facing pitchers who are juiced, which is something Aaron and Ruth didn't face.

Thomas, Roman asked the right question. Drug companies know that when you give two guys the same stuff - BOTH OF THEM are supposed to have the same reaction. And when a thousand guys take the same stuff and only ONE of them hits 30 more home runs than usual, your stuff aint no good.

Commercial: Try our miracle home run cream - "only works if you have talent".

Where exactly did I say that some people DON'T hate Bonds cuz he's black. You're confusing me with someone else. I started by saying that is true everywhere in life, not just in Bonds' case - people hating others because of the color of their skin!

And where did I say roids/HGH make ALL players great.

If you want to make a point, stick to the facts...sheesh.

bculz...my bad..."vehemently"

Can we all agree on the following and move on:?

- Before 1998, Bonds was already a HoF player
- Bonds is surly and abrasive
- Lots of people hate Bonds and disproportionally, more white people hate him
- Bonds took some or all of the following (cream/clear, HGH, and stuff they give to cattle)
- Bonds is probably 1 of hundreds of ballplayers who have taken roids/HGH, including pitchers (and 3 other of the top 10 HR hitters of all time)
- Bonds is the HR king of all time; no asterisk needed since he wasn't the only one cheating

does that about do it?

No question people who hate blacks will hate Barry, but the hatred for Barry goes way beyond that. I really think he just dug his own PR grave, and never stopped shoveling. His dad was that way, and he was raised to think that way. He is kinda like Tiger woods in that way or the Williams sisters. His dad was relentless in shaping Barry in his own mold.

Barry and Bobby Bonds have/had the BIGGEST US AGAINST THE WORLD CHIP on their shoulders EVER. I hope Nikoli can break the cycle.

Speaking of which...when Barry hit 756, his son came running out and hugged him and Barry didnt hug him back. At least from what I saw...he was too busy pointing his fingers back at the world and paying tribute back to his dad.

Just an observation.

Barry was raised to be the greatest. Just like Tiger and Venus and Serenus and Kobe too.

Totally different than someone like MJ who had that drive on his own, almost despite the odds.

Anonymous, darling - I'm not sure what you mean when you say I brought in other players, and yes I was ragging on Barry. I truly felt bad for his kid, who was standing there on home plate, hugging his dad so tight and Barry didn't reciprocate. That's harsh. The kid has been following his dad around all summer, wearing his uniform, sitting in the dugout, and I'm sure fielding his share of harassment through all of this too. In that situation, I think most people would happily share the spotlight with their son without hesitation - without even thinking about it. It would be instinct for most people to hug their children back, and it was very noticeable to me that Barry didn't do that.

For the record, I don't know who you are so I don't know if you've ever read any of my other posts about Barry. I am happy for him and I also think he should be in the Hall of Fame. But I still think he's a jerk.

Culzie, you've been sneaking the Froot Loops too, huh? Your great observation about Barry's kid was made yesterday......by me! Too bad you missed it - I know how much you love my posts.

Oh, and Culzie - YOU are correcting people on their spelling?!?!?!?!?!? What???

Julie is right. Barry was wrong for not hugging his son back.

Culzie, Excellent Post!

Jason, also a good post.

"- Bonds is the HR king of all time; no asterisk needed since he wasn't the only one cheating. Does that about do it?"

No, that doesn't "about do it." Was Aaron cheating? No. Why should Aaron lose the crown because B*nds and other players of THIS era use steriods and growth hormone?

"Drug companies know that when you give two guys the same stuff - BOTH OF THEM are supposed to have the same reaction."

Keith, in addition to less desirable side-effects, the body's "reaction" to steroids is increased muscle mass, strength and shorter recovery times. This doesn't mean they will lead to an increase in the percentage of at bats wherein the player makes contact. What is truly irritating is that the apologists like to believe the increase in strength couldn't possibly turn what would normally be routine fly balls into home runs.

Commercial: "Throw reason, logic and facts out the window and support your favorite steroid abusing athlete for his drug-aided accomplishments!"

I think that what Roman is saying is that yes Barry is a Jerk and he is hated for being a jerk but that him being black "magnifies" the hatred.......in the same way that while Mcgwire was hated it wasn't the same intensity because he is white. People can say he was well liked, but I think Mcgwire had a "media personality" which he flashed for the camera, and I hear he was a big @@s as well. Which would also make Mcgwire phoney as well. At least Bonds doesn't pretend to be human. As for Sammy, he was considered one of the "good ones" so it was fine for him to be alongside Mcgwire....or at least he was one of the good ones......which brings me back to Mcgwire. Alot of people vilified Sammy in Chicago after his hearing.....but I can bet the farm that people in Oakland and St Louis haven't done the same thing to Mcgwire. Even after he admitted to taking andro. So why aren't people upset with Oakland and St Louis the way they are about the San Fran natives who are sticking up for Bonds? hmmmmmmmmmmm.... interesting........an interesting drug you say? Back to that in a moment.

I think Vick is dispicable if what he did was true(which I think he did btw)....but as a black man I can't help but wonder if say Urlacher or Tom Brady were in the same position.......would there still be the rush to judgment or would there be more "let the evidence decide"......and yes......YES I AM INCLUDING MYSELF IN THAT STATEMENT TOO!!!!!

As for Bond's "not" being helped by steroids....Bud's ambivalence....and all the fans who are in a rage, I give you Morrissey....

Interesting Drug

There are some bad people on the rise
There are some bad people on the rise
They're saving their own skins by
Ruining other peoples lives
Bad, bad people on the rise
Young married couple in debt
- ever felt had ?
Young married couple in debt
- ever felt had ?

On a government scheme
Designed to kill your dream
Oh mum, oh dad
Once poor, always poor
La la la la la
Interesting drug
The one that you took
Tell the truth - it really helped you
An interesting drug
The one that you took
God, it really really helped you
You wonder why were only half-ashamed ?

Because enough is too much!
...and look around ...
...can you blame us ? can you blame us ?

On a government scheme
Designed to kill your dream
Oh mum, oh dad
Once poor, always poor
La la la la la
Interesting drug
The one that you took
Tell the truth - it really helped you
An interesting drug
The one that you took
God, it really really helped you
You wonder why were only half-ashamed ?

Because enough is too much!
...and look around ...
...can you blame us ? can you blame us ?

Bryant, you lost me with the Brady/Urlacher comment. Have you been hanging out with WRD or something?

Man, im guessing that nothing would please many in the black community more, than if Urlacher went down. Can I ask, why all the reverse racism and hatred for Urlacher. I bet if Urlacher were black he would be considered the greatest Middle Line Backer in the game ever. But because he's white and plays defense, he is not given his due.

Just a weird anti-urlacher vibe in here....hmmmm?

but anyways....Urlacher and Brady didnt run dog fighting rings, but i gaurentee you that if ANY player, white or black had the exact same set of circumstances happen...I know I would feel the Exact same.

I think this case transcends color. Child abuse too, that wouldnt matter. But, guns,drugs,babys momma's,domestic violence, all seem to have a more negative slant when its a black athlete for sure.

But, you have to also note, that a lot of skinny white bi*ches are going down for stuff, that many would have said would never happen. Well..its happening!

Weirdly, my observation about the Hug appears before yours?!?!

acutally..you posted that observation twice...my bad...i just glossed over your essay the first time...I didnt have time to read a novel!

Roman responds: You said he's not hated because he's black. I can show you emails that call him the n-word. Your statement is comical. Now, if your point is that he's also hated for being a cheater and a jerk, then that's fine, and I'll agree with that. But don't tell me race has nothing to do with why he's hated.

Actually Roman, it was I who said Bonds wasn't hated because he's black. Your response here was to a message posted by J.T., who was responding to your response to me.

You're right that racism exists, however, it is the exception rather than the rule. How else can you explain the tremendous popularity of such players as Michael Jordan, Mike Singletary, Tim Duncan (as boring as he is) and Kevin Garnett, just to name a few?

There are very few Americans that judge people purely based on the color of their skin. Almost all Americans judge people based on where they are from, how much they are worth, and how they present themselves. There is a terrible prejudice against poor people of all races, and due to a historical legacy of abuse and neglect black people are disproportionately represented among the impoverished.

Another result of the historical legacy of racism is that many black communities are quite violent. This is because human beings are much more likely to become violent if they themselves are exposed to violence and other stresses, such as poverty or degradation (nothing pisses people off more than being looked down on). Education can help to offset this, but education is impossible to attain in a dangerous environment, and so you get the vicious cycle. Of course, there's even more to it than this, but it's a subject so complicated I probably shouldn't even have started on it, and a subject that few people understand.

But my point is that people often mistake certain biases as racial. For instance, few people would look twice if a well-dressed black man passed them on the street, but most would be quite nervous if a g'd up homie came strutting by. This is because gangsters have a certain style, and gangsters are scary, so people dressed like gangsters are scary. It has nothing to do with color, except gang colors.

With Bonds, people don't like him because they don't like his behavior, and the fact that he's a steroid freak doesn't help. From what I hear, he's told a whole lot of people to F off, including fans, announcers, etc. Why is it a surprise that the people he tells to F off don't like him?

It's sad that you get blogs loaded with racial slang, and it does point out that not everyone in this country has evolved past being a complete idiot, but I think the vast majority have.

Jack Armstrong, I was prepared to let it go, but just like in the Godfather - "you brought me back in". By your own admission you state that steriods can only help increase muscle mass and increase recovery time. And even THAT, you cannot prove. Can't even prove if he took the steriods you are referring to. But you are going to infer they made Barry Stronger and therefore helped him hit home runs instead of fly balls. With that argument you are also infering that the other players didn't get any muscle or recovery time. So they can't hit a bunch of home runs. JUST BARRY!!!!!!! Let me know if I have it wrong. Because you have to explain why noone else did what Barry did.

And my argument is simple - and makes scietific and logical sense. If you, me and Barry and Raffy and Sammy and all the other men on this blog took Viagra - 95% of us would have the same results. NOT JUST BARRY. Your drug theory has flawed results. No self respecting authority could make a plausible conclusion like yours under oath. Time to look at the other side of the equasion. Maybe Barry is Good and Strong enough to hit home runs. A exceptional player has ONE GREAT year, and that is unbelievable even though Baseball has guys like that EVERY year. See A-rod the first half of this season for reverence.

The first was an observation, the second was a rebuttal to our friend Anonymous who called me out for saying I wasn't happy enough for Bonds or something like that. Try to keep up, Culzie.

Bryant - the only part of your diatribe I agree with is your points on McGuire and Sosa. They effectively admitted guilt in the hearings a few years back (McGuire all but admitted using, while Sosa's stupid act and his front-man attorney was all I needed to see and hear). Both of these guys' before/after pictures are every bit as damning as Bonds'.
Cub fans and Cardinal fans have NO right to call out Bonds when they went out day after day chearing on their own frauds when it was obvious they were doing something.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton won't come near this thing which means he is guilty guilty guilty!!! I was in the bathroom when he hit his homerun.

Roman responds: Jesse weighed in when Bonds was in Chicago. He made a good point about the fact the Babe didn't face some of the best pitchers because they were confined to Negro Leagues.

Lets asterix the Babe for not going up against Satchell Paige!!!

How is he hanging with me for assessing something? Unless you and fifty people get together and talk about something you usually think for yourself. I've said it before and I'll say it again:speak for yourself. You only know YOUR reasons for not liking a person. I avoided this blog because it's was going to turn into what it turned into. Race is a big thing regardless of which race we're talking about. Some people might want stronger immigration laws because they might not like Mexicans or hispanics. If you're not that person, speak or defend only your actions or thoughts. What good is it to defend racists if you're not a racist. What good is it to comment on the inner-city if you're out in the suburbs and never ventured to the inner-city? Naughty By Nature onced stated "if you not from the ghetto you wouldn't understand the ghetto so stay the F out of here". Good point,so stay out of it. Not one black person I know wish ill on Urlacher. And unless you know a few who told you that, you're again on the outside looking in. If anything, most people I know are just a bit tired of people making him out to be the best ever like some people act like he is. Ask yourself how many white players on any sports teams are ICONs in this city and still playing? Used to be that this city had teams with quite a few and now he's the only white player in any sport who plays worth the ICON title. Name one more who is the best player on his team in this city? I'm sorry to say it because it opens a whole can of worms but white Chicagoans are starved for a Great White Hope. But that's just my opinion on the outside looking in. Lastly, I think Urlacher is a great player and I resent anyone saying that I said otherwise. A LOT of people feel that he get special treatment or a pass because of his race. Let a black man send text messages to a woman and they stated some of the things that he stated and see what kind of hysteria it causes. From what I've seen,"my buddy",get on any sports topic like a (no pun intended) pit bull and never let up. Not once did he mention Urlacher's texts. BUT, he kept bringing up some player from 10 years ago and his crack pipe like it was new news. No one even wanted to talk about it. Jason after your post everyone else should have turned out that lights and went home because that summed it all up. Now that we know that Jason is money on this topic let's turn out the lights and go home.

I've been hearing various beseball experts on the radio talk about Bonds' home run record, and his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame.

These experts all seem to agree on one thing: Guilty or not, the record will stand until someone else tops it.

IMHO it shouldn't, and it doesn't have to. The NCAA has voided the winning records of entire teams when it has found them to be in violation of it's rules, going so far as to negate bowl victories, and even require the repayment of any procedes accrued by the offending team.

The Hall of Fame can do whatever it wants, provided that it really wants to.

Keith sez: "And my argument is simple - and makes scietific and logical sense. If you, me and Barry and Raffy and Sammy and all the other men on this blog took Viagra - 95% of us would have the same results. NOT JUST BARRY. Your drug theory has flawed results. No self respecting authority could make a plausible conclusion like yours under oath."

I'll make that conclusion, because it is indeed plausible.

For a very brief period in MLB history, multiple individuals suddenly eclipsed the records of Ruth and Marris in an extremely short span of time. The one trick pony known as Mark McGuire, obliterated a record that was bested only once in over 70 years.

"Coincidentally" Sosa also equaled or exceeded Ruth's record THREE TIMES in a period of four years!

Then ... surprise, surprise; shortly therafter, Bonds absolutely annihilates it.

But now, if you're pay close attention, the numbers have gone back to being what they'd been for almost a century. Once again, a 40 home run season will be looked upon as excellent, while a 50 home run season will be seen as being exceptional.

A-Rod's first half was just that. But a great first half does not always extrapolate into a record breaking season.

See me in September.

Skinny white *itches? Why on earth would you say that? When these women actually call the photographers and tell them where they are going to be and then act like "lawless" indiviuals of course they are going to "go down". There you go again. King of the blog. I'll anoint you because that seem to be what you want. So you didn't read Julie's entrie and then refer to it as a novel. Then you make comments like you actually gave a darn. All you care about is hearing your own voice. Why are you always condescending? You don't read a person's whole entry even if it's brief and then you down them. Please go back to not putting my name in your comments just to make a point because I don't want or need to respond to you. You're full of yourself too often. Actually you're full of a lot of things but I'm done with it.

booooooooooooo!

Roman, your observations are on point and good. There is no way that this isn't a race issue. It's also a media against Bonds issue as well. The only points I'll make on the race issue are:

1. I'm sure it hurts a lot of the old guard to see two Black men ahead of Babe Ruth.

2. For perspective, look at the Duke Lacrosse team. It was widely reported that these kids were being railroaded by the prosecutors. The media then went on a tireless expedition discrediting the accuser.

3. Contrast that to Michael Vick. If he is guilty, then throw the book at him. But, let it be proven in a court of law. I don't see anyone looking at the co-defendants that have flipped on him.

4. McGwire is widely viewed to be guilty based on his performance in front of Congress. We at least know that he was using a steroid pre-cursor during the summer of 1998.

5. Sammy Sosa was caught with cork in his bat. MLB gave the Cubs 1 hour to remove any corked bats from the clubhouse before the security official would inspect. Reports were that up to 70 bats were confiscated.

6. How about the prevailing reports and rumors of Roger Clemens being on the Grimsely affidavit. How about the report that he was out for the first part of the year because he failed a drug test.

All rumors and reports but widely dismissed by the sports writer in their pursuit of Bonds. I guess it's too late now because he continues to redefine the record on a daily basis. With Aaron it was death threats. With Bonds, it's media induced harrassment. Yet, the fans pack out the house at every stadium that he plays in. The forums are full on every site when it is a Bonds topic. Last I checked, it isn't all hate being thrown his way. I watched all of the analysts/experts on ESPN talking about the uproar and the ensuing riot that would occur if Bonds tied or broke the record on the road. The only one that came out looking foolish in this entire thing was Bud Selig. The fans in San Diego gave the guy a standing ovation and the clowns on ESPN were still claiming that it was about 50/50. I recorded it on my pc and on my DVR and all I heard were cheers. One clown even stated that the Giants fans were the ony ones cheering in San Diego. I know the sports writers want to sweep under the rug, but judging by the many forums I've read this week including this one, Bonds gets the most hits.

At some point, we have to give the racism aspect of this less credence than we give the pure media induced hate that he is experiencing. Like him or not, he is the King. I happen to be a huge fan. BTW, Roman did you read the Scoop Jackson article on ESPN.com about him wearing the Bonds jersey around Chicago. I thought it was great stuff. If not, here it is:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070806

Roman's Blog: Updated weekly.

Roman responds: Yeah, sorry about that Mark. Sorry I want to take a week of vacation without doing the blog. I've put up at least one new entry a day, but apparently that's not enough for you. I said O'Brien will do it. He does the high school one, too. So just take it easy.

Romo says: 2. Much of this hand-wringing over Bonds is racially motivated. I don't know how much, but I'll say it's significant.

Romo - let it go man. Quit playing your "I was born a poor black child" bit.

Roman responds:
1. Bonds has been facing pitchers who have been juiced. Aaron and Ruth didn't.
2. Much of this hand-wringing over Bonds is racially motivated. I don't know how much, but I'll say it's significant.

#1 - Agree
#2 - You're jumping into the latest race card entry. Who has been the only one to put race into this? Bonds! The same guy who wanted to deny his son child care payments - the same son he held out as a shield against reporters, and the same son who he neglected to hug with his record HR. The more baseless accusations there are (yes, I know there are white people who don't like him; no different than the fact that there is a bias against white basketball players by black fans), the more that real race issues draw a deaf ear.

2. For perspective, look at the Duke Lacrosse team. It was widely reported that these kids were being railroaded by the prosecutors. The media then went on a tireless expedition discrediting the accuser.

Ernest - I think we can agree that race continues to be an issue in this country but (again) you're creating an issue. The media brought up discrepancies in the case, oh, I don't know...like:
- she changed her story 3 times in the first few days
- the police put ONLY Duke lacrosse players in a lineup

Of couse you neglected to mention that the NC chapter of the NAACP also quickly jumped into the fray and later admitted they jumped the gun.

It works both ways Ernest - the more baseless claims you make, the weaker the cause gets.

Mark V. I like your post, but remember, baseball may have been in on it too with juiced baseballs. But again, noone can prove it. Babe and Hank arent the only men who can hit a baseball. Folks want that but someone comes along and shatters those records. Jesse Owen's olympic records - shattered. Walter Payton's rushing record - shattered. And the Golden Bear is coming down! Walters record was broken during the "steriod" era in football, but there was not controversy.

And while i'm on it, lets look also look at revered Iron Man Cal Ripken Jr., who ALSO capped his record in the steroid era. I bet you that none of these guys on this post will want to put and asterisk by his name!! Even though it is even more likely that a "steriod" would help someone even more in a situation like his. Now lets see how many responses we get on that! I don't think any of them should get an asterisk - because no one caught any of them.

Other bloggers made good points on Clemens. Other suspected steroid users don't get Barry's attention. Clemens setting win marks & nothing is said. McGuire another player suspected but slip out in time. Barry would probably reach hall without any suspected juice help. Bonds is still a great player & those on juice or not could not accomplish what he did.I just like to see others suspected get equal treatment. In Chi town memories Sammy another well known juice suspect among a list of others not mention in/out of baseball.

I dont even know where to Begin.

Michael Irvin was busted with a crack pipe like 2 months ago and was just inducted into the HOF. I dont know if you were hittin on that thing too, but you mustve missed it.

I have been to the ghetto, my point gaurd in college was from Cabrini and I would have to take him home every day after practice and he would have to walk the gauntlet of gangbangers picking on him EVERYday for trying to go to school. They would say things...like..."where you going Pu**y" "where is your pencil fa**ot?" DAILY.... I also lived on Foster ave in College. If you know anything about Chicago, you know that aint the best place. My roomate had a smith and wesson to protect himself. My teamates were jumped and robbed repeatedly (actually a few times by mexican gang bangers).

The funniest thing about your rant WRD is that you display the ultimate bash of Blacks by implying that ONLY blacks can know about the Ghetto. How F'ing ridiculous is that? Did you know that the Italians, the Irish, the Jews......all at one time or another lived in Ghettos. Now you have Whites, blacks, mexicans and everyone else living there too. To say that white people cant comment on the Ghetto is the ultimate slap in a black mans face. Is like...Blacks have an exclusive right to the Ghetto..and no one can know what its like to live there. Then why do all these Rappers say" we are just reporting from the ghetto" i mean...i dont have to go sit in war torn Bosnia to know it sucks.

Now, i brought up Urlacher, because YOU DID and someone else did.

Everytime there is a black athlete who does something....you Bring up a hypothetical about Urlacher or Brady....thats my point.

Also, using your own logic...

If whites cant know anything about blacks...then how the F do you know that Whites want a "great white hope" ?

your so mixed up...it crazy...you throw more darts than i can avoid. you mix arguments. you draw others into your pity party. Not for nothing...but Julie does just fine defending herself. She can dish it, and she can take it.

(i need to reread your post for more things to bust open)

to be continued.....

Keith, you're starting to let assumptions dominate everything you say. Are you bringing Carl, Emmitt, And Tiger into the fray now? You've really lost me!!!

unfortunately this blog has become (with the absence of Mary Mitchell's blog nonsense) the place to throw the race card out at every occasion, whether warranted or not....i'm outta here

Barry Bonds is not the Home Run King. That belongs to and always will be Hammer' Hank. Barry may own the record but he is not the king. As far as Barry saying that the record is not tainted then why is his personal trainer still in jail. If there is nothing to hide then Greg Anderson has nothing to worry about in front of the Grand Jury. Bonds is as guilty as McGwire, Sosa and the rest of the steroid users. Bonds made me sick when he kept thanking the fans for their support. He cares nothing for the fans. It is all about Barry and always will be. That is why I don't like him. It is not because of his skin color. The man is the biggest jerk that has ever walked this earth(next to Ty Cobb).
Crown Barry all you want but any player who cares nothing for the fans or his teammates and only for himself is no king. Let me rephrase that. He is a king. A KING OF NOTHING!!!

I think that in reality Jeffro, this is just ONELONGCONTINUOUSTHREADSTARTEDABOUTBARRYBONDS

The race dialogue and the sports dialogue are on a constant collision course. They are inseperable. Except when talking about Hockey!

Jeffrey, gotta bring them ALL into it. Folks want to unfairly single out Barry. If we are talking about an era - ANYONE in that era goes in the pot with the stew! Folks like Tiger are doing it at an unbelievable pace - he is not our of bounds. If you are going to shrug your shoulders and dismiss him and Cal - then shrug your shoulders for Barry. People go with their "feelings" that is why things get so messy.

Keith: "With that argument you are also infering that the other players didn't get any muscle or recovery time. So they can't hit a bunch of home runs. JUST BARRY!!!!!!! Let me know if I have it wrong. Because you have to explain why noone else did what Barry did."

Did you reallly take the time to read the post? I never inferred that the roids worked only on Bonds - in fact, I specifically stated that taking roids "doesn't mean they will lead to an increase in the percentage of at bats wherein the player makes contact." What I stated was that the player still needs to put the bat on the ball.

As far as your comparison of steriods to viagra, again, you really don't get it, do you? Steriods make you stronger, viagra gives you an erection. There is - and you don't seem to be able to grasp this - a difference between obtaining physical benefits from a drug and actually putting those benefits into play. Taking steriods doesn't necessarily mean you'll put the bat on the ball more often, just like taking viagra doesn't mean you'll necessarily get laid.

If you want to ignore scientific fact that steroids increase strength, mass and recovery time, you can continue to do so. There's no point in either myself or anyone else with common sense trying to tell you otherwise.

Driving someone home isn't living in it. Put it this way: if YOU're not from the "black" ghetto don't comment on what it's like. You're not,so why the words? Why did your teammates constantly get jumped and you didn't? Not even once.Why didn't the gangbangers call YOU names? You're an easier mark. Passing through don't mean a rats so don't act like it is. You act like dropping someone off makes you are an honorary resident. Get real. I bet you never took this person home after dark. I work in well to do white neighborhoods, does that make me an honorary resident there? I'll tell you they won't catch me in there after dark. I can pass through but the "Po Po" is making sure that's all I'm doing. I don't know a thing about those other ghettos you speak of and frankly I'd like to keep it that way. And just because you come to any conclusion doesn't mean anything because you are constantly going into "imaginary-ville" no matter what anyone says. The only person you don't insult is Keith. And he's the ONLY one who acts like you're not a piece of work. He just doesn't know that you 'anonymously' pick on him. And just because me and ONE other person make a comment about Urlacher how does that constitute ALL black people wishing his downfall? Man that is "ignant". (That's black ghetto for ignorant). What? The guy from Cabrini tell you this? And the gangbangers too? You sit and make all these comments like you are so hip but you come off like that word they use for a white person trying to be hip AND black. Tell me you are not Don Imus and no one would believe it. You sound just like him. You offend people with those silly statements like "skinny *itches". That one took the cake. You didn't play well with others as a kid and you're worse now. Grow up.

It works both ways Ernest - the more baseless claims you make, the weaker the cause gets.

Posted by: JT | August 13, 2007 06:48 AM

I've missed your point I guess. If you want to slam Bonds go ahead but when you want to disagree with me, be a little more clear. My point about the Duke Lacrosse team is that they were given the benefit of the doubt from the beginning. Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, Michael Irvin, Ray Lewis, O.J. Simpson and Kobe Bryant haven't been offered the same courtesy. Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Pudge Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada and A Rod have all been afforded mythic status. In a few cases, they have been shamed in the court of public opinion but not before they were saluted and cheered to the high heavens.

One last thing about steroids. Didn't we all believe Palmeiro was innocent? Look what happened to him. Out of all those guys, he seemed to have the most credibility. Now, you can't find his ass on a milk carton. He was also not a particularly large man. If the only thing that stands out is body mass increase and that's all the proof you need, then explain him. Explain Neifi Perez. Explain the guy that Bonds tied the record against. Give me a positive test or nothing at all!

Keith says "Steroids do as much as red BULL - unless baseball players are somehow immune to them - cause as far as I see Barry seems to be the only one they work on."

then Keith says "And while i'm on it, lets look also look at revered Iron Man Cal Ripken Jr., who ALSO capped his record in the steroid era. I bet you that none of these guys on this post will want to put and asterisk by his name!! Even though it is even more likely that a "steriod" would help someone even more in a situation like his"

Do they help - or not? I guess you forgot to say it depends on your color - or what racial angle you're playing. well done.

Jeffrey - you called it.

Willy, you made my point again. YOu should re-read my last post. My whole point is, the Ghetto isnt exclusively Black. I guess you think it is. Thats flat out the most "Ignant" thing uttered in here ever. Besides your "thats black for Ignorant" comment.

I have never claimed to be black, I have never said I know what its like to be black. I have never acted...(well..ok..I used to wear a Pirates hat when PE was cool) but other than that, I have never ever once acted like I was black.

My comment about the skinny hollywood bi*tches (cause they really are bitchy and skinny and white), was to show you that I do not root exclusively for punishment of blacks, and allow whites to go unpunished. Which is a claim you repeatedly make.

Also, I rip Keith all the time, he just knows how to take it.

and for the record, ive posted 1 anonymouse post (by accident) and immediately took credit for it in my next post.

Sooo......

wake up dude...your asleep at the wheel!

You dont have to live in a Desert to know its HOT!!!

Ernest
The point is that there was doubt immediately in the Duke case based on the way in which the case was being handled - case closed. These other examples you mention are the dregs of society. Expect Vick to cop a plea by Friday.
I had no idea that Sosa and guys like Pudge have reached "mythic" status - you'd have to be real dumb to think they are/were clean. Other than the fans in their hometowns, who cheers for them?
Palmeiro??? Are you nuts?? Why didn't Palmeiro sue Canseco for his book - he said her PERSONALLY injected him. Sue him right? He was lying right? The only person telling the truth in front of Congress was Conseco - I believed that then, even more so now. Without Conseco, I doubt we would ever begin the path to find out what is/was happening.
You're living in a dream world Ernest - a dream world shaded in the color you want it to be. Finally, baseball in fact does very limited drug testing today, using only urine samples. PHD users are decades beyond that - not only requiring blood to determine whether you're using or not, but also taking drugs to hide any appearance of drugs. Read Game of Shadows...wait...that was all made up right?

And where in my Naughty By Nature post did I mention you had to be black to be from the ghetto. YOU're not from the ghetto of any color so stay out of it and save your comments like you know about ANY of those ghettos. You're from Highland Park so please give us info on that. And there isn't even one house in HP that resembles anything in any ghetto. And if it did it still sells for 300,000 dollars. Too many times you use phrases like Baby Momma drama and things like that. Who are you Maury Povich? Because he's the only white dude on the planet who can say that and he still sounds silly saying it. You didn't rebut my comment about me and someone else commenting on Urlacher and it not being the epicenter of black people wishing his downfall. The more you write the more you show yourself as a fraud. You're not a big time anything. You've been everything and done everything let me be the first of many who will tell you that you're ignorant in every type of slang available.And if you can call a white girl a skinny white *itch I can see it's very easy for you to call minorities derogatory names as well. Go away Don Imus Jr. because your true intents are showing. And did anyone else hear about this alleged crack pipe and Michael Irvin circa 2007? Man was that not newsworthy or another one of that guy's illusions?

Read Game of Shadows...wait...that was all made up right?

Posted by: JT | August 14, 2007 10:55 AM

How is that any more credible than Bonds denying usage of steroids. Whose to say these guys, who by the way, have never had a personal conversation with Bonds, Greg Anderson, Victor Conte(who categorically denies ever giving Bonds steroids) are telling the truth? I guess the writers of that book and their star witness, Kimberly Bell are more credible figures. Just say this, you believe them over Bonds because you don't like him. Never bring up the Game of Shadows because it's just a book of opinion. Whether it's rooted in fact, only very few people know and I'm sure Fanaru-Wada and Williams believe it is. That doesn't make them credible. Then, Mr. Black balled from baseball himself, Jose Canseco. You could have just as well said Jay "the voice of America" Mariotti. I've read many books in my lifetime, that doesn't mean that I believe all of them. Hell, O.J. wrote a book which he claims is a definite work of fiction. How many of you believe that? Just because Canseco, by chance mind you, got it right doesn't make him any less of a snake.

Now, I'm going to leave you with a little legal lesson. The reason why these guys don't sue is because in civil cases, the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff. The only way Palmiero could have won a lawsuit against Canseco is if he had definitive proof that he was lying. It turns out that Canseco was correct. But, what if Palmeiro had never tested positive? It would have been his word against Canseco and he would have lost because he had no solid proof to refute his claim. It's the same with Bonds. He can't prove that he didn't take steroids. The attorneys for the writers would point out the same junk you guys believe which is his increased body mass, his hat size and Bonds would not be able to deny those changes in himself. A judge would rule that it would be impossible for Barry to prove that he didn't take steroids because there are no tests on file. Besides, with an open grand jury waiting on any new developments, Bonds is smart to maintain his innocence and say nothing else. He'll never be indicted as long as they only have Kimberly Bell as their star witness. Why should Bonds incriminate himself? For the benefit of a bunch of fans that wouldn't care for him even if steroids had never been an issue.

We'll continue to disagree on the Duke case. Initially, there was no appearance of impropriety on Nifong's part. There was only outrage at the treatment of these kids by the police and the prosecutor. Where is the same outrage over Michael Vick? How about the outrage over how the government is squeezing him to cop a plea? If he cops, he's guilty right? No, he's smart. If he doesn't take the plea and loses, he faces a much stiffer sentence. The government is giving out deal after deal to a bunch of dog-killers to get him. Where was the outrage over Mark Mcgwire when andro was sitting out during his great chase of the Maris record? Don't point to those arrogant sports writers that kept him out of the HOF. Those same guys were singing his praises in 1998. I want you to continue to think you're more intelligent than anyone else here because you have such "great" perspective. I think you're a sheep that lets the opinion of others sway your way of thinking. And, how do you know what kind of testing baseball does? Let me guess, you read it in an article somewhere by a very believable beat writer. His source was an unidentified MLB official. I bet in the same article, this clown was using this as his reason why he's sure Bonds is still on steroids. I'm not sleep at all and until Bonds either admits it or tests positive, I'm riding with him. Remember one thing about these so called sports experts, only 4 out of 305 of their editorials are edited by Black men or women. That's how many Black editors there are nationwide. Keep believing those ESPN straw polls, but remember, opinions are not often rooted in fact. "Men lie, Women lie, but numbers never lie". When Neifi Perez and Jose Canseco hit 756 homers, I'll believe that's all it took for Bonds to get there. Otherwise, crown him the King!

Read Game of Shadows...wait...that was all made up right?

Posted by: JT | August 14, 2007 10:55 AM

How is that any more credible than Bonds denying usage of steroids. Whose to say these guys, who by the way, have never had a personal conversation with Bonds, Greg Anderson, Victor Conte(who categorically denies ever giving Bonds steroids) are telling the truth? I guess the writers of that book and their star witness, Kimberly Bell are more credible figures. Just say this, you believe them over Bonds because you don't like him. Never bring up the Game of Shadows because it's just a book of opinion. Whether it's rooted in fact, only very few people know and I'm sure Fanaru-Wada and Williams believe it is. That doesn't make them credible. Then, Mr. Black balled from baseball himself, Jose Canseco. You could have just as well said Jay "the voice of America" Mariotti. I've read many books in my lifetime, that doesn't mean that I believe all of them. Hell, O.J. wrote a book which he claims is a definite work of fiction. How many of you believe that? Just because Canseco, by chance mind you, got it right doesn't make him any less of a snake.

Now, I'm going to leave you with a little legal lesson. The reason why these guys don't sue is because in civil cases, the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff. The only way Palmiero could have won a lawsuit against Canseco is if he had definitive proof that he was lying. It turns out that Canseco was correct. But, what if Palmeiro had never tested positive? It would have been his word against Canseco and he would have lost because he had no solid proof to refute his claim. It's the same with Bonds. He can't prove that he didn't take steroids. The attorneys for the writers would point out the same junk you guys believe which is his increased body mass, his hat size and Bonds would not be able to deny those changes in himself. A judge would rule that it would be impossible for Barry to prove that he didn't take steroids because there are no tests on file. Besides, with an open grand jury waiting on any new developments, Bonds is smart to maintain his innocence and say nothing else. He'll never be indicted as long as they only have Kimberly Bell as their star witness. Why should Bonds incriminate himself? For the benefit of a bunch of fans that wouldn't care for him even if steroids had never been an issue.

We'll continue to disagree on the Duke case. Initially, there was no appearance of impropriety on Nifong's part. There was only outrage at the treatment of these kids by the police and the prosecutor. Where is the same outrage over Michael Vick? How about the outrage over how the government is squeezing him to cop a plea? If he cops, he's guilty right? No, he's smart. If he doesn't take the plea and loses, he faces a much stiffer sentence. The government is giving out deal after deal to a bunch of dog-killers to get him. Where was the outrage over Mark Mcgwire when andro was sitting out during his great chase of the Maris record? Don't point to those arrogant sports writers that kept him out of the HOF. Those same guys were singing his praises in 1998. I want you to continue to think you're more intelligent than anyone else here because you have such "great" perspective. I think you're a sheep that lets the opinion of others sway your way of thinking. And, how do you know what kind of testing baseball does? Let me guess, you read it in an article somewhere by a very believable beat writer. His source was an unidentified MLB official. I bet in the same article, this clown was using this as his reason why he's sure Bonds is still on steroids. I'm not sleep at all and until Bonds either admits it or tests positive, I'm riding with him. Remember one thing about these so called sports experts, only 4 out of 305 of their editorials are edited by Black men or women. That's how many Black editors there are nationwide. Keep believing those ESPN straw polls, but remember, opinions are not often rooted in fact. "Men lie, Women lie, but numbers never lie". When Neifi Perez and Jose Canseco hit 756 homers, I'll believe that's all it took for Bonds to get there. Otherwise, crown him the King!

Big Willie/Culzie I don't get into namecalling because its a waste of time. Besides, I like Culzie's comments even if we dont always agree. I like you guys, so why call you out especially when I can't see any of you. I even like Jay Marriotti! Face to face is how I like to get down anyway. I'm from the Southside, home of the Bernie Mac-attack! Where signifying was part of the curriculum at the gradeschool level, so don't take silence for weakness. All that negativity runs posters away, and I like reading your opinions. Big Willie you are the reason I started posting. Read one your posts on the Bears many moons ago and I had to respond. The rest is blog history. You guys are stars here... more opinions and less personal.

Kudos to you Roman. Your colleague Jay wouldn't never have the smarts or integrity to say what you did. Allow me to elaborate on it.

Babe Ruth broke the career HR record in the all-white era. No black players around.

Hank Aaron broke the career HR record in the speed-drug era. Teams purchased the drugs for the players and routinely mixed it in coffee.

Barry Bonds broke the career HR record in the steroid era. Teams and MLB officials turned a blind eye as it was happening in the club houses. If they dig deep enough they may even uncover front-offices actively participating in it.

There is no such thing as a non-tainted era in sports that includes the NFL and NBA.

The numbers then don't mean as much as the separation. That's how you compare the era's. How great is the separation between the Babe's accomplishments and everyone else who played in that era? Ask the same of Aaron and Barry. If you are honest about it then you won't deny that Barry far and away was the best player in the steroid-era. That is why he is deserving of the HOF. If you are honest about it you would say he did enough before 1998 to warrant the HOF.

MLB is now in the HGH-era. They have no means to test for it & we know of at least 2 major plots affecting dozens of players. Generally speaking HGH usage does not swell the head or any other noticeable parts of the body so it's a lot harder to notice.

So again, A-Rods final numbers won't matter as much as how far he separates himself from his peers. As a fan that's all you can really look at because professional sports are a multi-billion dollar business now. It's no different than corporate America where cheating, lying, & stealing have gone from "shock and dismay" to "what else is new?"

I love that WillyD has my resume' memorized. Thats awesome.

Well, Mr. Ghetto Expert, have you ever been to Ft. Sheridan? In Highland park? Highwood? I doubt it. I also lived in Evanston, Chicago, West Side, I lived in SanFrans ChinaTown, I lived in Louisville, I lived in Colorado, I live in AZ. Bottom line,ive been around the block enough to know enough.

Im not calling anyone names, I just like to rile up WRD cause, he gets so animated and explosive. You do call me a lot of names though. Maybe go easier on that. But I can take it. Ive been called worse.

Will, you would love me dude. Im a guys guy and a bro's bro!

I have been fighting on your side of the fence for as long as I can remember. You should respect my honest, argue from either side style. I call it like I see it.

Keep it coming!

Keith's from the partof town where they hide under your car with a filet knife and cut your achilles when you come out of the mall.

WRD vs. BCULZ

Cage Match....no holds barred, smack session throwdown, ghetto vs. suburbs, brains vs. bowelmovements, facts vs. fiction

man..I would pay to see it!

"But, what if Palmeiro had never tested positive? It would have been his word against Canseco and he would have lost because he had no solid proof to refute his claim."

Sure the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff, but under modern-day defamation statutes, had Palmeiro not tested positive he would have had an excellent case against Canseco. Canseco's statements were statements of "fact" - not opinions - and Canseco had no physical evidence to substantiate these assertions. As far as proving the falseness of Canseco's allegations, Palmeiro would merely have to point to the fact he had never tested positive for steriods. Further, by making such statements of "fact" against Palmeiro, Canseco impuned Palmeiro's integrity and ability to perform in his profession, thus making these statements 'defamatory per se'; as such, Palmeiro wouldn't even have to show damages (i.e. loss of salary, endorsements, etc.) in order to bring a viable claim. Keep in mind that the burden of proof is low for civil claims - if I recall correctly it's based on the preponderance of the evidence (i.e. more likely than not; 51% likely).

No, the reason people accused of these things don't bring suit is because they don't want attorneys, investigators and, potentially, District Attorneys digging up dirt on them.

Palmeiro Schmallmeiro!

"Palmeiro Schmallmeiro!"

I agree. This blog has grown tiresome. I'm going to see if Mary Mitchell has anything new going on.

Ernest...u truly are delusional. Can you roll me one too?

Yeah...nice call JT, i totally missed Earnesto's rantola. Way out there dude.

He said regarding Vick...
"How about the outrage over how the government is squeezing him to cop a plea?"

Earnie, there is no one left for him to Cop a plea against. He is the last man standing. He has been left holding the "perverbial bag" (pts?)

Vick will have his day in court, but if he is smart, he will take a plea deal and ask for forgiveness.

He was the financier. Come on, we all watch Saprano's. The guy who pays the money to the crew is the BOSS.

Who should they go after the kennel janitor?

Sure the burden of proof lies with the plaintiff, but under modern-day defamation statutes, had Palmeiro not tested positive he would have had an excellent case against Canseco. Canseco's statements were statements of "fact" - not opinions - and Canseco had no physical evidence to substantiate these assertions. As far as proving the falseness of Canseco's allegations, Palmeiro would merely have to point to the fact he had never tested positive for steriods. Further, by making such statements of "fact" against Palmeiro, Canseco impuned Palmeiro's integrity and ability to perform in his profession, thus making these statements 'defamatory per se'; as such, Palmeiro wouldn't even have to show damages (i.e. loss of salary, endorsements, etc.) in order to bring a viable claim. Keep in mind that the burden of proof is low for civil claims - if I recall correctly it's based on the preponderance of the evidence (i.e. more likely than not; 51% likely).

No, the reason people accused of these things don't bring suit is because they don't want attorneys, investigators and, potentially, District Attorneys digging up dirt on them.

Posted by: The Capitalist | August 15, 2007 11:27 AM

I'll grant that scenario as credible. I'm sure he could have made a viable claim, it doesn't mean that it would stand up in court. What I don't want is someone using the fact that they don't sue as further proof that these guys are guilty. You rarely see public figures bringing civil suits. That can be a mixed bag, especially if they lose.

I'm curious to see what Barry does after the grand jury expires in a few months. I only wonder if and when the indictment never arrives, will people's opinion of him soften as it seems to be doing right now. Hell, in Pittsburgh he received a standing ovation and a video tribute this week. But, ESPN of course didn't show that. I didn't expect them to mention it.

Ernest Smokin Joe Frazier! That last post was a work of Art! I hate stuff that insults my intelligence. Folks are calling it the "steroids era" but only want to put an asterisk by BARRY's achievements - not others like Cal Ripkin Jr. or ANY other When its folks like Vick and Barry there is extra hatred and that is where the problem is. Truth and glaring facts won't help these kinds of people. AND THAT IS WHY BARRY WON'T ADDRESS THEM. Let them believe JOSE.

Someone on ESPN said history is going to have to compare all 3 men to their exclusive generations - Ruth in his (segregated - and bad pitchers), Hank in his, and Barry in his (steroids). He said all 3 men are great and deserve to be in the hall of fame. They represent the best of their generations. Now that was a fair and informed assessment.

You can hate Bonds but he could have broke both Home Run records sooner if pitchers wouldn't intentionally walk him. Even if he is on steroids, his percision to hit the ball is better than most in the MLB. But lets look at the sweetest swing in Baseball.... Ken Griffey Jr. Enough Said.

Keith, I think that Vick was a well liked superstar and that people reluctantly vocalized disdain for him. If the dog righ woulda been like Howie Long or Ray Lewis or someone like that, i think people woulda actually been harder on them.

Vick was like a budding MJ. He had it all, game, looks, style, fan devotion.....thats what makes his case so compelling. He had the world eating out of his hand.

I think the Rise and Fall of Vick will be like no other athelete ever. I cant think of an athlete who went from Face of the League to Public Enemy #1. I hear that NFL.com has started erasing Vick from their Highlight reels. They are literally erasing him from the NFL lexicon.

Bonds has hired two attorneys in the Bay Area and charged them with looking into suing Curt Schilling for defamation of character. Very interesting!

He was the financier. Come on, we all watch Saprano's. The guy who pays the money to the crew is the BOSS.

Who should they go after the kennel janitor?

Posted by: bculz | August 15, 2007 10:04 PM

If nothing else, that was pretty funny and true at the same time. They're squeezing him to cop. If he doesn't it will be a long road to hoe for Mr. Vick.

Of course there was hypocrisy in relation to Bonds and McGwire, and race certainly had a role to play in it. But its not the only factor.

McGwire, who went through the same body transformation as Bonds, was an American hero. He brought baseball back after the strike. He has a bridge named after him in St. Louis.

Yet everyone turned their heads during the streak, knowing full well he was likely on something. People chastized Jose Canseco years BEFORE this scandal for saying McGwire was on something, calling Canseco a hater and a liar. They also ignored the "powder."

Yet the entire season Bonds was headed toward breaking the record, steroids was an issue with the media. Did race have something to do with it? Yes.

Frankly, the sports side of the newsroom has always had a conservative streak, and some of the industry's most rabid commentary about African Americans comes from sports journalists and radio figures. One need look no further than Mike North for the proof. As a former journalist, I knew to stay away from the sports desk if I had written anything with a racial element.

You also have to factor in the fact that sports journalists can't stand when a player has the audacity to not talk to them or treat them like friends. McGwire was super-friendly, which probably factored into journalists looking the other way.

Bonds has always been abrasive. So the first chance the sports academy had to rub it into Bonds, you knew they were going to go after him. And it isn't just Bonds.

The fact that Albert Belle, who had one of the greatest ten years in the history of the game, is not a serious Hall contender has to do as much with his personality as anything. Eddie Murray was also under strict scrutiny for blowing off the press.

Fact is, if you don't kneel before Bob Costas and co. and make their lives easier, you will get no love.

The irony is, McGwire would have NEVER come under this scrutiny if people were not so desirous to strip BONDS of his records. That is the one thing no one is saying.

The steroids story is big because it has public enemy No. 1 as its target in Bonds. If it had been McGwire or Clemens -- a player who went through the same transformation, but is curiously absent from rumors -- we would not be where we are today. There would be no steriod "era."

Speaking of which, if you are going to put asterisks next to the "steroid era," I think the same should be done for the "segregation era." and "dead-ball" era. That's another post.

But I do think Roman you should post censored versions with the N-word, just to prove your point and show that race is a factor. As they say, if you want to make something public, you need to take your lumps in public. Don't protect anyone

I've waited for you to answer some of my comments and you didn't so I know that you are a fraud and nothing you say would sway my opinion. No, I would not like you in person because deep down you take a certain pleasure in getting under someone's skin and anyone like that wouldn't be welcomed around me. Keith is a good guy because I know that he's easy-going but will get on you if you cross him. He wouldn't waste his energy fighting a fight which surprise me that he's trying to sway so many opinions on Bonds like he's doing. Keith, as levelheaded as you usually are it is a collosal waste of time trying to turn someone to your way of thinking. Bottom line: Bonds had never personally been an ass or done any of those jerkish things to anyone appearing or has appeared in this blog and yet people are so against someone who never did anything against them. He's done those things against the very guys who get paid to sway the public in the matters of sports. It's hard to come up with negativity against a guy that treats you nice. And since that's not Barry,these reporters take turns reminding the gullible public what a jerk he has been to them. Might as well hate him since they do. There isn't a guy from sports that I hate or hated. Even when Bill Romanowski was spitting in black player's faces and hitting them with his helmet in a fight I didn't find the energy to hate him because maybe there wasn't anyone around to tell me or others to do that. He was a drug cheat and a jerk and I don't wish him ill-will. It's like that guy who keep bringing me in his arguments: I don't even say you name. I might have mentioned it two or three times. But as you can see I don't waste too much energy giving you the spotlight you crave. YOU just know that I'm talking about you because you constantly bring me into your B.S. Between the two of us, you are the one who spend his energy trying to provoke me and in all my 43 years, guys like you tell more on yourselves than you know. WE all can see what kind of person you are and I think a lot of people agree that what you are is VERY sad. I'm a Christian so I'll pray for you.

"When its folks like Vick and Barry there is extra hatred and that is where the problem is"

Let's talk about uninformed...why do LOTS of people dislike (don't like the word "hate") Bonds? Because he's broke the record of another African American - how does that make ANY sense? You're right, he's one of many who has used PHDs but the only one with the HR record. Ripken - I would guess he did use greenies during his day to stay fresh. If there was any suspicion that he used PHDs during his day, I would have no problem putting an asterisk by that record but I haven't heard 1 person suggest it. Why do you suggest race is the end-all issue here? It has nothing to do with his own abrasiveness? This is the same guy whose teammates wanted him kicked off his college baseball team. The same guy who tried to cut out his kid from child support and then held that same kid up as a prop and shield against reporters just a few years back. The same guy who continually brought up race when he was approaching Ruth's 714. Yeah, I really have no idea why people don't like him - I'm sure it's because of his color.

Vick - let the facts play out. Wait till we find out what he's willing to plea to and then tell me how race played into this.

Anyone want to weigh in on the Giambi situation? I wonder what would have happened if Bonds admitted to using steroids. Selig has already treated him like dog shit with no admission of guilt. What if he did just turn around and cop to using? Be honest in your responses.

Fact of the matter with the Vick saga is that HE is they guy they are after. Squeeze the guys who were actually doing the day to day work so you can get a bigger fish to fry. How many times do the actual murderers or criminals get lighter sentences so they can lock up the guy who asked for it to happen? Who is worse:the guy who actually did it or the guy that wanted it to happen? The case was strong enough to lock them all up for a longer time and yet they will get off easier and so will he. If a guy did something that warranted a long sentence he should be forced to do THAT time. As far as I'm concerned they didn't get fair punishment. And plenty of people did not like Michael Vick. Just about any blog I read ALL over had many people who talked like Rush Limbaugh when it came to him. The guy was being replaced by Mr Young of the Titans as the next best thing and the face of the league. Young is a budding superstar and Vick is an enigma that won't get better in many people's eyes. He's also the guy that many think got his coach fired unjustly because he wasn't great like he should've been. Plenty of guys wanted Matt Schaub under center in Atlanta and were none too pleased that he was traded away. Reluctantly showed disdain? When? They could not wait to talk against the guy out loud. There was no wait and see with him. They were ready to throw him to the ... Anyway, the book on Vick was closing long before the dog-fighting. His ceiling was caving in and he was an albatross with a big contract that was holding his team back. Actually he didn't have any receivers to throw to but no one was cutting him any slack about it. Sure, he had it better than Rex did when it came to public opinion, but Rex isn't the number one star on this team like Vick was. And I'm sorry but the face of the NFL is and has been Peyton Manning for quite a few years. "Cut that meat" "rub some dirt in it." What was Vick's mantra? I don't remember him even speaking in a commercial. Manning was even hatched out of a football. I've seen it with my own two eyes. Manning,Manning,Manning. Every other commercial and no Vick. Sorry. Hope this doesn't cause an argument. Also I actually like the Hoagy Hut in Highwood. Ravinia in H.P. when they get a little R&B action and Buffalo Joes in Evanston. But a ghetto b*stard like myself wouldn't know about those places. I worked for 14 years at Evanston Hospital and 5 years at H.P Hospital so I've been accustomed to dealing with people from all walks of life. Especially the hoidy-toidy who love to throw the fact that they make money and I didn't. I'll take paying my bills from check to check and "being real" over acting like money is making me a man. Sound like anyone we know?

That is very interesting.....Schilling is a blow hard!!

Do you think he will settle or fight the lawsuit?

I don't think the government cares if he cops a plea or pleads innocent actually. I think however if he takes a plea bargin, he has to sign a statement of guilt. If he fights it, they will throw more charges on him, on top of what they already have.

I am a little weirded out that they didnt bust more rings like this one. I mean, there had to have been more people envolved than Just Vick and his two buddies. ???

Culzie you are right about Vick. That is what makes this such a farce/tragedy. The man fought dogs. Its very wrong, but I don't think Vick knew it was worse as folks have made it out to be. People have more reaction for these dogs - than for human beings and its way out of line. He is facing more time (and press) than the drunk driver who killed 3 promising young people on the southside, dick cheyney who shot a man, and scooter libby who gave up a spy. Our priorities are way out of whack. Folks are protesting and marching for dogs. These were the SAME folks that cheered Vick on Sundays. And that is the recipe for making a disgruntled, surly athlete like Barry Bonds. I like him because he is smart enough to know - that the same folks who drool over you are the same snakes that will stab you in the heart with that same pen (after they ask for an autograph for one of their kids of course). (Barry's Daddy taught him well) Vick is learning a very valuable lesson - the hard way. They root for you, but they are waiting for you to make a mistake so they can hurt you. "They smile in your face - and all the time they wanna take your place..."

"Vick was like a budding MJ. He had it all, game, looks, style, fan devotion...."

HUH???

52% career completion percentage, career QB rating = 75, 0 Super Bowl appearances. Isn't that basically saying "yeah, MJ can leap, but he doesn't know how to dribble the ball". By his 3rd year, MJ was rocognized as the best at his position, and everyone knew once he had a little talent around him, he would win a title. Vick was never considered a top 5 QB...ever.

Ignoring Vick's troubles, giving him $130M over 10 years was the worst contract in the history of professional sports. Hard to believe it wasn't Matt Millen shelling out the money. One of the 3 most over-rated athletes out there. Actually, he WAS...

Since this discussion has morphed into a forum about Michael Vick, (which is perfectly ok as far as I'm concerned) allow me to weigh in.

Looking at his situation from a "What would I do if I were in his now discontinued Nikes":

I would waste as little of my money as possible on attorney's fees, and cut a deal that would allow me to retain as many of my assets as I could. I would understand that the money I have at the moment is all I'm ever going to make, (outside of an NFL pension) and that I'd need it to last me the rest of my life, once I've served my time.

I'm sure that the Falcons will sue to recover the remaining years that his signing bonus will be prorated over, and will likely succeed in their efforts to do so.

There will be no more endorsements of any kind, as I can't imagine what kind of business would want him as a spokesperson, regardless of how hard he tries to rehabilitate his image. He could discover a cure for cancer, and PETA would still organize boycotts of any product that he endorsed.

A book deal might generate a few shekels, but he'd need a good ghost writer to pull it off. If you've ever heard him speak, it's quite obvious that he's either functionally illiterate, or relishes the image of appearing to be so. My personal guess is that he'd have a hard time spelling "dog" if you spotted him the "d" and the "g".

Realistic prospects for any future employment would be on the the lower rungs of the pay scale, so it would be in his best interest to hold on tight to whatever money he has left after the smoke clears.

If he has a lick of sense, he'll buy a small place in an out of the way burg, and spend the rest of his life keeping a low profile, minding his own business, and staying out of trouble.

That's the best advice I can offer him.

Tommy, I have to disagree. Vick is and has always been a great leader. From college, almost beating a great Florida State team for the national championship, to beating Green Bay in Lambeau to making the Falcons a contender for the playoffs every year. He also had a reputation as a generally great person off the field. This shatters all those perceptions, at least to the media and pet lovers. I, for one, have to go with some of the guys here that say that maybe he doesn't value the dogs' lives as much as say you or I. I have a question: Why is it less of a crime to commit murder while driving drunk, ie Leonard Little, beat your wife, ie too many to name, incite violence in strip clubs, ie too many to name and be suspended for steroids in the NFL, ie too many to name?

But, the true indictment is on the media hypocrites that have turned him from golden boy status to the devil himself. Just like they did with McGwire and Sosa. Barry had the unfortunate experience of watching his father's destruction in the media.

Roman responds: Hey Ernest, how many of the posters on this blog who are ripping Vick do you think belong to "the media." How about none. Give me a break. The media has nothing to do with how people are viewing Vick, other than the fact we reported the charges in the indictment. I hope you're not suggesting we shouldn't have done that.

WRD. your last blog was pretty interesting reading; until I came to the part about Ravinia in Highland Park and Buffalo Joes' in Evanston. Never been to Hoagy Hut. Anyway, placing these two establishments with the point you were trying to get across was way off line. Better luck next time.

William sez: "Fact of the matter with the Vick saga is that HE is they guy they are after. Squeeze the guys who were actually doing the day to day work so you can get a bigger fish to fry. How many times do the actual murderers or criminals get lighter sentences so they can lock up the guy who asked for it to happen? Who is worse:the guy who actually did it or the guy that wanted it to happen?"

Gimme a break. In fact ... give us all a break.

None of these punks would have been able to afford the cost of the dog food; never mind the cost of the dogs themselves, without the financial support of Vick.

He initiated this "business", bankrolled it, and was an active participant.

Explain to the rest of the class why they wouldn't, or shouldn't be "after him".

Exactly, Mark, Without Vick's financial contribution, this operation never exists. He is a disgusting pig who should absolutely be banned from the NFL for life. Did you hear about the stuff that came out in court on Friday? It's truly nauseating what he did. He was an active participant in the murder of at least 8 dogs just this past April. If he plays in the NFL again, I will have to reassess my interest in a sport that would allow that to happen.

Roman responds: Hey Ernest, how many of the posters on this blog who are ripping Vick do you think belong to "the media." How about none. Give me a break. The media has nothing to do with how people are viewing Vick, other than the fact we reported the charges in the indictment. I hope you're not suggesting we shouldn't have done that.

No, it's big news. What's killing me is all the opinions and PETA. It's a rush to judgement nationwide. I'll admit right now that I have a problem with a lot of the media's reporting tactics. They always attempt to speak for the fans. It seems that there are no positive stories anymore and everyone is just waiting for someone's misfortune to call them bad guys. I think Vick deserves his day in court, and if found innocent, I would like to see as many reports on his innocence as I see on his guilt. But Roman, you and I both know it will be reported for about 2 days and then dropped. As far as my fellow posters go, I've found that it's easier to be negative or allow someone to shape your thoughts when you're not sure what to think about something. A lot of these guys seem quite intelligent however and I respect their opinions. I'm still waiting on someone to make a comment on Jason Giambi. Why is that story being swept under the rug?

Ernest...
Vick and his followers have been living off the Packer game for how many years? I loved it last year when he lectured the media after having a nice game (2 TDs), and then stunk it up the following week. He should take a page out of Grossman's book when it comes to the media - when you have a good game, credit your teamates; when you stink (and he has), tell them you need to get better. Humility was never a part of Vick's modus operandi.
I learned everything I needed to about Vick when he quit against the Bears a few years back on Sunday night - flat out quit.
Romo's right about the media and Vick - they have always called him a great talent, great athlete, etc - NEVER a great QB which is true.
Great leader? I assume you're joking...

Big Willie...good posts!

Good post indeed, but dangerously close to slander my man. You may want to watch yourself.

I caddyed for 12 years, waited tables for 10, i sold arictectural engineering and environmental due diligence,ad space,golfpackages,and now real estate. YOU DONT KNOW ME. Sooooo....best to stick to opinions on URLACHER . MR Posted by: William R. Donald | August 16, 2007 10:45 PM

You can Fraud my nizzles!!!!

Urlacher Litterally Destroyed Vick that game Tommy! Good Call.

Truth is, Vick would be taken out in the 3 weeks or less, if he came back to the league. You dont think there are some dog lovers on Defense on a few NFL teams? Not that most Defensive players already want to take him out, but with this on top of it. Godell is doing Vick a favor.

Hes quick but not that quick!

Go Bears!!!!

eRNIE, YOU REALLY DO HAVE A THING FOR THE MEDIA DONT YOU?

I kinda agree. But mine is more for CNN and other leftist socialist plo & black bloc, anti american ones.

"I'm still waiting on someone to make a comment on Jason Giambi. Why is that story being swept under the rug?"

Because he's admitted he used performance enhancers and has been contrite -- the antithesis of Barry.

Really Anthony the last part of my post went out to you know who who acts likes I'm a hood rat who's never been to anywhere but the southside of Chicago. And my question is who actually funded the dog-fighting emporiums that are being found in Chicago and many areas right now. It doesn't take a millionaire ball player to make an establishment like those run. It's very conceivable that cousin Pookie can run roughshod over property that someone might not visit very often. Slum lords exist from all areas. The thing about Vick is people who were caught red-handed turned it over on him and got shorter sentences for it. We have a trial going on right now where the little nobodies who actually committed the murders did so because the head of the mafia asked them to do or maybe made them do it. They're getting shortened sentences and they were the ones committing the murders. Who is worse the flunkies or the head of the syndicate? I never said that the head wasn't a bad person. I asked who was worse the one who did the killings /committing the dog-fights day to day or the ones who funded it? That was a question not a statement. If I wanted a crime committed and someone took money to do it who's worse? Me for asking or the person for doing it? If they turned me down and I couldn't find anyone to do it it's doubtful that I'd do it myself. Picture Vick standing there between two snarling dogs. I don't see it. Guys rush to make easy money anyone they can. It doesn't take much for guys to commit crimes for an easy buck. No one twist these guys arm to make them fight dogs or shoot other people. They shouldn't get off easy just because they got caught and can turn on a guy. That's all I said. Lock everybody up equally was all I said.

Ernest - almost forgot (see, I can disagree with you entirely on Vick and agree with you on a different point).
I have no clue on how Selig can give Giambi a free pass - especially when that steroid-induced freak cheated an MVP award from Big Frank in 2000. This whole Michell investigation is a waste in that there was never any supoena power to begin with to get players to talk. So Selig has to drop his pants to get Giambi to talk to his boy Mitchell. Baseball is dead to me (says Michael C. - FOOTBALL IS KING.
Selig is a complete joke of an owner...oops, commisioner.

I learned everything I needed to about Vick when he quit against the Bears a few years back on Sunday night - flat out quit.

Posted by: Tommy | August 19, 2007 12:52 PM

Ohhhh, I forgot about that one. Good call. You know what, I stand corrected regarding Vick. He started off great, but somewhere along the way he lost that fire. I still stand behind my innocent until proven guilty argument.

"I'm still waiting on someone to make a comment on Jason Giambi. Why is that story being swept under the rug?"

Because he's admitted he used performance enhancers and has been contrite -- the antithesis of Barry.

Posted by: Jack Armstrong | August 19, 2007 08:28 PM

Please never make this argument again. That sounds as stupid as Bud and Mitchell look right now. I'm not calling you stupid, just that comment. Pulease!!!!!!!

eRNIE, YOU REALLY DO HAVE A THING FOR THE MEDIA DONT YOU?
Posted by: bculllzzz | August 19, 2007 05:49 PM

I just hate how they always reference us the fans in their opinions as if they called and asked. I only do this forum because I respect Roman's down to earth commentary. He doesn't put himself ahead of the story. I've read other forums and this so far is the best because you're allowed to state your opinion and it won't be suppressed, blocked, edited and every once in awhile he'll respond. It's clowns like Jay Mariotti, Lupica, Mitch Albon, Steve Rosenbloom and 90% of the ESPN yahoos that upset me. Look at how fast they went past that Giambi story. One day, no commentary, no editorials, no polls on sports nation, nothing.

No question the Giambi thing is a joke. Hey Roman, can you get your buddies to go under the rug and pull this story back out into the light? I am really confused. Why the hell isnt Giambi getting lambasted (pts?) for what he did????

William...(sorry I need to say your name, since you are not the only person I talk about) you said

"Picture Vick standing there between two snarling dogs. I don't see it."

Well, they have 3 different testimonies that say he WAS there and actually HUNG 8 underperforming dogs, and when that didnt work on 3 of them, he suggested they DROWN them in Buckets of water. Now, i dont know if he held the dogs heads under or not, but HE is being pegged at the scene of the crime.

One point however that helps your argument is that the Feds were orignally brought to Vicks property on a DRUG warrant, when they discovered the gruesome dog graveyards. That could help to bolster your case a bit.

Ultimately, they are both equally culpable, the Bossman and the Henchman. I think however, Vick was both here. He "allegedly" was doing this at VT and it carried over into his Pro life. I think he was a pro dog fighter before he was a pro football player.

Finally, NOBODY has brought up how there are 3 more UNIDENTIFIED WITNESSESS in this case.

And...I just heard that there may be MORE NFL players in on this, and the feds are trying to get Vick to roll on them...

uh ohhhh......

Watch out Clinton Portis owners ?!?!

Roman responds: If William's point is that Vick is no more culpable than his co-defendants, there is validity to that argument. Vick's blame lies with the magnitude of the operation. It takes money to conduct an operation that big. But there's a strong likelihood the co-defendants would have been fighting dogs on a smaller scale if not for Vick.

I think so too...and I also think that Vick and his boys would be fighting dogs whether or not he was an NFL QB. I think the problem is again that he just didnt leave that illiegal world behind when he made it big.

He had to keep his street cred and his rep up and he got smacked for it BIG TIME. Him, PacMan, Tank...all had one thing in Common. They had POSSES GONE WILD. They had either friends or relatives or extended relative/friends who they supported and let hang around the gravy train and they didnt see that some of these "hangers on" were TOTAL LIABILITY's.

Now, maybe they did know, and they just didnt care, or even worse, thought that they were untouchable, or above the law.

End of the day, nobody is above the law, not the BOSSMAN, not the HENCHMAN, not the PACMAN ....none...of them.

This isnt an isolated case, i think There is dog fighting all over the country. Hopefully this case will help to shed light on rings and syndicates all over the map.

Maybe, after we bust Scooter Libby, we should arrest some of these other dog fighters too!!!

I appreciate the fact that Roman is not trying to pile on the Vick is guilty scrum, but....its ok to post a thread that talks about him Admitting Guilt Romie...your not going to fullfill ernest's prophecy. Its a huge story. Biggest Sports figure to ever go to jail in the prime of his career.

18Months minimum recomended sentance.

Holy smokes!!! He really stepped in dog doo doo...no pun intended.

Ignore that!

Roman responds: If William's point is that Vick is no more culpable than his co-defendants, there is validity to that argument. Vick's blame lies with the magnitude of the operation. It takes money to conduct an operation that big. But there's a strong likelihood the co-defendants would have been fighting dogs on a smaller scale if not for Vick.

I'm the first to admit that Vick deserves whatever punishment he receives. Killing the dogs aside, the fact that he lied and played on everyone's sense of decency is unsettling. The larger problem here is his lack of judgement in ridding himself of his "posse" when he finally became a public figure. He should have never put himself in the position to have to answer these questions about his character and about common human decency. I'm at a loss right now because I feel bad that another high profile young brother is about to go into the system. I'm not a Vick fan by any means but this hurts me to my core. He should've known better..................

Feel free to pile on. I stated innocent until proven guilty. There is no more proof necessary. I hope they throw the book at him in the hopes that other young brothers use this as an example of how poor friendship and acquaintance choices can have dire consequences.

Let's see... Michael Vick guilty. Hmmmmn, Tim Donaghy... nothing.

Rob, it takes a while for things to make their way though the system. Donaghy, will go to jail for a long time too.

hey...but since your so quick to point out racial injustice, what about OJ?

Ironically, i think Donaghy is guilty of the same systemic problem that plagued Pacman,ConVick and Tankformer...

thats......

Couldnt leave the "old hood" behind (and im not talking about the ghetto) im talking about that those old running buddies that always got you into trouble.

Its sad that someone who had aspired and achieved more than those hangers ons, not being able to break their grip, and eventually going down.

It probably seems like an easy decision to just give up on all your old homies and pals and running mates, i mean....

Dog fighting in bloody backroom & deep woods barns vs. VIP rooms, Penthouses and Leer jets

....hmmmmmm....tough one for me!!! Ill take the Penthouse and the Leer jets please. Every day of the week and 2wice on sunday.

But i guess it wasnt so clear for Vick. Or, if it was, then he is a worse person than i thought, because he knew it was wrong, and still did it, and thought he was untouchable.

Not get off the Bond's subject but I, even through I'm a CUB fan, am under the impression the both Kerry Woods and Carlos Zambrano have or are now using the "JUICE". Woods, for some reason, looks like a skeleton now and Zambrano looks 3 sizes BIGGER than a year ago. This could account for Woods "injuries" and the blob Zambrano has become. Also his quarrelsome nature this year. Has anyone else thought along these lines?????????