NBA ref fixing games

I wonder if this has anything to do with that mysterious phantom call on Pippen against NY in the 1994 playoffs? Think about it??

Roman responds: What about MJ's non-push-off on Byron Russell?

I've watched a TON of NBA and have seen many unexplainable calls which allows a team to cover (or not). Depending on the extent of the details, this story can put the whole steroids debacle on page 3 for awhile.

I'm not surprised at all...I'm just surprised they caught someone.

How far up does this go? Bevetta? Stern? NBA on NBC?

Maybe its not just gambling, but also ratings fix??

The people will revolt against these corrupt leagues, if someone doesnt rain them in.

Baseball on steroids..now Golf!
NBA has the fix in...
NFL gone wild!

NASCAR.....is full of drunkdrivers

NHL is still has atlethes with mullets...

Suddenly the MLS isnt looking so bad....i like Becks...and Victoria....whos with me?

How far up does this go? Bevetta? Stern? NBA on NBC?

Maybe its not just gambling, but also ratings fix??

The people will revolt against these corrupt leagues, if someone doesnt reighn them in.

Baseball on steroids..now Golf!
NBA has the fix in...
NFL gone wild!

NASCAR.....is full of drunkdrivers

NHL still has atlethes with mullets...

Suddenly the MLS isnt looking so bad....i like Becks...and Victoria....whos with me?

Let's play guess the ref....I say Bavetta or possibly Joey Crawford

When they expose which referee was involved, every game he has ever called will be scrutinized. It will ask the question, "Who really deserved to win the game?" Do you then strip teams of their titles like how the NCAA handles cheating (ex. being what they did to Michigan and the Fab 5). Plus, you know that they are going to find out that professional players were involved. How deep will this rabbit hole go? Players could have "shaved" points in their series because of gambling.Lets be honest, both Jordan and Barkley have admitted to having gambling problems. This is all speculation, but it wouldn't shock me that they implicate some well known players.

Culzie, did you see "Victoria Beckham, Coming to America?" It was fantastic. I became a major fan when she said, "I wouldn't be caught dead in ballet flats."

The NBA has never been honest. I stopped watching the NBA when the Kings beat the Lakers but somehow the NBA and the refs allowed the Lakers to move on a win a crown. I really hope the NFL is legit because I don't want to give up on another sport and I feel the people that actually follow the NBA are simply fooling themselves. It is my opinion the NBA is struggling because of the games that are obviously fixed.

All I can say is that I am not surprised. I bet it happens alot though in College Basketball games. Yes, I am still fuming over Illinois loss to North Carolina in the championship game of 05. I still feel as if they took James Augustine out of the game to let Fat Sean May(the next Sweetney) have his day along with jagoff Roy Williams winning his first championship. Hmmm.....Sean May's dad was in the audience, he of the "won a championship 19 years ago on Indiana blah blah blah team". As the announcers kept yapping "wow wouldn't it be incredible for his son to win just like his dad" crap I realized Illinois would not be "allowed" to win that game.

Yeap, I bet it happens alot.

Tim Donaghy...he's the guy Rascheed Wallace nearly punched after a game and drew a long suspension.

Guess he's already resigned...this is HUGE.

I can see Wallace and Cuban waiting in line to get their fine money back.

No hat needed...it's been obvious for years....particularly in Football and Basketball...Ronnie Harmon's fumble, Irving Fryer's drops.....Gervin's kid point shaving...Heck, Da Bulls got away with murder... particularly at the expense of the Pacers in the Eastern Conference finals....and let's not forget our darlings "The 9/11 New England Patriots"....I can go on for days...I thought it was obvious to everyone with sports knowledge....I'm embarrassed for 'em....

but not as embarrassed as I would be if I was caught watching Soccer...."Invented by Mom's to keep little boys from playing football!!"

and for the Gamblers....It's an even money bet right now Mike Vick misses between 9-12 games this year....and Vegas would know...

Crawford is an easy target, but I doubt it would be him. But God this does shed some light on a few odd games we fans have seen. I'm a die-hard Bulls fan--and this may sound strange--but I'm even angry when the opposing team gets cheap calls on them.

It saps the game. It seemed as though any time the Bulls were at home in a playoff series they got a ton of calls and vice-versa.

Since we are being co-conspirators and co-theorists in this dastardly deed, let’s play with the numbers.

30 NBA teams play 82 games per season which = 2460 total games.

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One source close to the probe counted the number of games on which the ref and his wiseguy buddies scored windfalls in the "double digits."

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The article states double digits for number of games comprise, which I will used the highest number possible - 99 games - at best.

Do the calculations and the best we get is 4.02% of games betted on this season or per season. What is the percentage of games you guys bet on, whether office pools or personal bets with friends or enemies? Do NOT TELL, the IRS will come after you for NOT paying TAXES on your winnings!

MAJOR QUESTION? Is the particular referee(s) named, betted and pass judgment only playoff games, the entire 82 game season or both? If so, are not referees teamed with the same group to get a feel for how each calls a game? Just like teammates a power forward know when to roll to the basket for the pass from the point guard for the lay-up or block out. Also, the center knows when the alley-oop pass is coming from the point guard or point forward. I know they have to talk about how bad or how they missed a call every once in a while. Now does the net widen and everyone has been cheated out of the thrill of watching and thinking there was true competition among their favorite team?

Coming full circle wouldn’t the other referees pick up on the alleged perpetrator (co-referee) bad calls SOME TIMES? And if they do not notice it are they now a part of the scheme or co-conspirators for not reporting the guy.

This James Bond 007 - Super Sleuth stuff is fascinating.

Bculzie if its Hugh Hollis - I am going to be pissed off to the highest level of pissivity! Who knows, it might just be a whole bunch of them working together. It makes sense. They have to get jealous of those players making all that money.

Roman responds: It's Tim Donaghy.

big deal. Let me know when games AREN'T fixed. That's a big story. Plus .....the New York Post..........seriously.....did it have a picture of Britney Spears' baby driving her mom home too?
or an Alien pregnant with Kevin James' baby?

Boy!... What is going on int the sports world now days? Seems like everytime I turn on the TV or my computer, there is some kind of scandal! Now an NBA ref is fixing games with mob connections? Between Vick's Dogfighting and this, it makes me anxious to hear some good news... Like Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record!

I used to ref small fry games, and my friend (other ref) and I would orchastrate the games so that they were always buzzer beaters. So that the kids (6-10yrs old) and their paretns would have some fun and they wouldnt be blow out no fun games.

It was easy to do.

could it be that some of the rules changes over the years made it easier for any ref to make calls to either keep a game close or help create a blow out? for instance... a player can put one forearm in the back of a player backing into the paint and lean every bit of his body weight on him BUT if he simply reaches out with both hands and touches the player on the back to maintain a certain distance between them that is a foul.....if you reach out and touch a player dribbling on the perimeter to help gauge and maintain a certain distance between you that is a foul...if you touch a player on the elbow as he releases a shot and it affects the shot (soley to the discretion of the ref's opinion) it's a foul....goal tending, was the ball still on the way up or on the way down? very subjective......does Kobe get one more step in the lane before traveling is called than the average player? did the player move his pivot foot prior to putting the ball on the floor or was it a simultaneous move? again very discretionary on many occasions. did a player have sole possession and call time out prior to being tied up for a jump ball? two players going after a loose ball inadvertently collide one player is knocked down...is the one left standing guilty of a foul or was it incidental contact and play should continue? do super stars get calls rookies don't? sure they do. should they? NO! you can make a case in any game that it was fixed by the ref's but are they all fixed? I doubt it very much. Hitman made reference to the Bulls getting away with murder at the expense of the Pacers in the eastern conference finals but as I recall Reggie Miller got away with a Jordanesc non-push off to get free and make a 3 to send that series to game 7. have games been fixed? to some degree I am sure some have but is it a widespread conspiracy? I believe if it was it would have been uncovered long ago.

thing on him too hard fouls" are a joke. As was the case with the 'Washington Madame', the hatchet won't stop here.

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NBA referee Tim Donaghy is under investigation by the FBI for allegations that he bet on games that he officiated over the past two seasons, and that he made calls affecting the point spread in games, multiple sources said. Where are these sources when the cheating is happening at that moment in time?

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I refer back to a previous post; can’t one referee tell when another is making blatant bad calls or a no call when violations occur? Come on guys it is not as though they are watching the game as the fans are, at least they are not supposed to be!
******************************************************************

The initial report indicated the crooked ref allegedly made calls
to manipulate the final score of the game at least 10 times.

HOUSE always WINS!

NOW THE MAJOR QUESTION - "Is this another Black Sox Scandal?" I doubt it, players make plenty of money nowadays! Referees make a decent pay yet simply a human being with faults. Hell, he would have done better asking Michael Jordan for a loan if that uptight for money! Okay, maybe not Mike, with his gambling butt!

See how human beings with the same faults and one is worth $300 million dollars and gambles; the other worth $300 thousand dollars whose gambles and now the mob got him by the cojones. The latter is now guilty of having a human frailty which some are practicing this activity in an office pool every sporting season. Try to put yourself in this guy place with your thirty thousand dollar salary! Do you feel the air squeezing from your lungs and now grasping at any hand that is thrown your way whether it is a decent one or a terrible one? You simply want to breathe for another day!

Life is a beautiful thing when able to make sound decisions every TIME you MAKE ONE! The guy screwed up! I won't hang him for it!

But if it were really that fixed, do you think that San Antonio and Detroit were at the top of the list of teams?

Wouldnt it be NY, Boston and LA in the finals every year?

Bavetta intentionally lost his race with Barkley because he bet against hisself. No way will that healthy guy lose to a pudge like Barkley. I knew then that I couldn't trust sports. Thanks Dick. You opened my eyes to cheating in sports way better than anything else in the last 100 years. Nyuk,nyuk.

Tim Donaghy just made Bonds and Vick very happy. They get moved to page 2 and 3.

Getting ready to start my 33rd year as a referee, it breaks my heart to bypass the 'gentlemans code' among refs and talk about another, but it's out there for all to see now. For years I've watched N.B.A. games religiously, and it doesn't happen often, but these OCCASIONS stick out like sore thumbs. That Bulls-Knicks game some papers were referring to was pushing for the OVER to cover, not the spread, DUH! The under/over is much easier to work than the game spread itself, but it seems Dumbaghy wasn't that smart, seing he was in for hundreds of thousands in the red. But anyone who thinks he was alone probably thinks Bonds was really the only one on steroids. Partnership is a strong bond, and a gambling addiction even stronger. College basketball play is the only true game left, and I'm not sure how squeeky clean that can be. Oh, and 'bculzie', if you would have "fixed" small fry games in my neighborhood, the PARENTS would have hung you from the light pole and let the kids play 'PINATA'. Keep it close but not to 'buzzer beater' status. That type of loss has a stronger effect on kids than you may realize.

Always felt the NBA refs controlled the outcome of games too much. Many questionable calls through the years. Wouldn't be surprised if more NBA refs are on the take. NBA lost its fantastic many years ago!Just another nail in the coffin as why I dislike the NBA.

Bculzie I agree. The whole game is not fixed. Just one or a few dirty refs. There is no way that the league would allow Boston or New York to go through what they have. Boston is downright painful to watch. And they definitely would have thrown Malone, Ewing and Barkely a bone.

Funny stuff wrd

It's funny how one of the things I hate most about the NBA is now coming back to kick them in the butt, and that is the horridly subjective nature of calls made by the referees.

The rules should be made clearer, first of all, and secondly they should be equally enforced on all players. Giving veteran players and stars more leeway than everyone else cheapens the game. Unfortunately, this insidious practice is creeping its' way into baseball now. Anyone notice how tight the strike zone gets when Lee or Bonds are up at the plate? This needs to be stopped yesterday.

I'd be a little surprised if umps never fixed baseball games. I've seen quite a few Cubs games where the home plate umpire's strike zone changed drastically depending on which team was at bat. All professional sports leagues need to begin paying closer attention to the referees. An obvious measure that I can't believe has not yet been taken would be to keep stats on officials as well as players, including columns for "blown calls against" and "blown calls for." That would make any foul play more transparent, as well as weeding out the officials who absolutely stink (and we all know there are many of these).

In addition, things that can be automated should be. I don't see why they don't have a machine call balls and strikes during baseball games. I can't imagine anything fairer than that, and it is certainly within our technological capabilities.

The NBA sucks so badly right now, with their asinine rule changes, stupid policies that turn mediocre players into stars (Shaq is the most obvious), and endless commercial breaks - I've already essentially stopped watching, and this just puts the cherry on top of the s**t pie.

Anthonny, you wouldnt have strung up nothing. I was a ref and a coach for 15 years. I was the most loved and favorite coach in the program. Parents loved me, kids, coaches. I coached Jeffy J, Little Pax, Little wennington, little cartwright, ALL OF THEM.

Your a nut job to pick out that one comment....dude....my point was It was easy for a ref to change the outcome of the game....but make it unnoticible...my point was to make it fun for the kids....I bet you were one of those dads that chased the refs out the gym cause your kid didnt get to put up 50 in a house league game......i hated dads like you!

I stuggle to watch NBA games start to finish for this very reason. More than any other sport professional basketball in the US is the one that sticks to the rules the least. Refs have been making questionable home team calls for years. If the Bulls are at home and trailing at halftime you know the third quarter is going to take forever because they are going to get all those flimsy calls going their way; vice versa if they're on the road and leading. It makes the games predictable, boring and it borders on theater rather than pure sport.

I would just like to see what would happen next season if the refs had Kobe on as short of a leash as Tyrus Thomas, or if Chauncey Billups and Raymond Felton had their games called the same way.

If anything, this goes to show that all the government's efforts to snuff out mob action in any capacity is about as effective as cortisone 10 on 1,000 bee stings.

I guess this is repulsive, saddening and shocking, but when you look at the biased calls of any NBA ref, mob gambling ties or not, it's not that shocking: They've been effecting the outcome of games for years.

Mr. bculzie. It's bad enough you can't spell, even worse you can't read either. It's easy for someone to jab at people in a blog all day long (A.K.A. bculzie), but it's even easier when they're out of state (A.K.A. bculzie). What I said was the "PARENTS" in my neighborhood would string you up; meaning they knew the game well enough to see someone take a learning process away from their kids, AND the neighborhood was tough. If you coached all who you said you did, then I'm sure the inner city might overwhelm you a little bit. I've coached softball, baseball, basketball, and football for over 30 yrs. besides refereeing those sports, and LEARNING and SPORTSMANSHIP were what I taught. You're (that's Y O U apostrophe R E} a nut job for taking my words out of context. As much time as you spend on these blogs I would think you'd be able to get it right by now. Anthony has one 'n' after the 'o', buzzer beaters are tougher on ANYONE that may have lost by 5 or 6 in an otherwise PROPERLY refereed "FUN GAME", and you can't be too good if you think refs can make it "unnoticeable" (that's U N N O T I C E A B L E). And last but not least, I respected referees the same way I wanted respect while in their position. You got all that?

David Stern's days are numbered as commisioner of the NBA.

It's no longer a matter of IF he will step down - it's a matter of WHEN.

Here's why.

If David Stern keeps his job, the NBA will have zero credibility.

Stern has often proclaimed that game-fixing has never happened in the NBA - at least not on his watch.

And now, with the Donaghy story, everyone knows otherwise.

So the question becomes very simple: Is Stern a liar, or is he incompetent? There are no other options here. He either KNEW that game-fixing was going on, and he lied about it - or he had no clue about game-fixing, in which case, he's incompetent.

Either way, David Stern has to go.

And either way, David Stern WILL go - or the NBA is dead.

Wait and see.

bculzie and Anthony - you're debate is interesting to me because it shows how cheating permeates every level of sports. I tend to agree with you on this one, Anthony, because as hard as it would be for a kid to lose a game, get trounced by the other team, I fail to see how a corrupt ref fixing the outcome is in any way a good thing. You weren't keeping the kids interested, Culzie, you were cheating. If the parents knew what you were up to, I doubt they would have held you in such high regard. Especially parents with those last names. Were there any kids who didn't get into the game who otherwise would have in a blowout? How about the lesson of good sportsmanship? Also I just find it a little off-putting to hear you go on about how awesome you think you are. Kids deserve better - they are smarter and more resilient than you think.

JohnS. Money!! On the money!!! I never understood why blantant errors were not considered the kiss of death. Too much tradition says that baseball and a lot of sports need umps and refs. Replays should let every guy know who is failing at his job. REplays are never wrong only the officials. It kills me to watch the NFL network on Monday and have the President of officials tell me some hot air excuse for what I watched a million times the day before. I kept hearing how the NFL needed full time jobs for refs so they can be better prepared to do their job. Doesn't NBA have full time officials? What good is it? I can make videos on my cell phone. Watch a full movie and extras play from a thin round metal wafer in a plastic box on a 7 inch screen that I can fold and put in a small pack. If technology is so superior than what we've had over the years who needs a ref/ump, but traditionalist. And as long as we pay athletes these astronomical salaries and have odds and betting,there will always be someone out there willing to level the field by giving some officials money to control the outcome of a game played by someone making 10 and 60 times what they make. Everyone that official encounter in the stadium are making vastly more money than they are. Wouldn't you want to get anything close to what the players are getting? Too bad the only way is by cheating. The athletes do so why shouldn't they feel compelled? Not saying it's right but...

...also for the record, it takes me about 20secs to post...how long does it take you?

Julie you are right, however there are times when as the coach, you see players/coaches/parents "stacking the deck", so you as a ref/coach/grownup have to level the playing field. It might not be fair, but its done THROUGHOUT sports. "America's" favorite team/player benefits from a biased call all the time. A "make-up" call in the NBA is nothing more than a way to balance things. A good coach does look to balance things out, and to get EVERY kid in the game. That is exactly what happens when a kid star gets taken out of the game. Everyone KNOWS he/she is the best player and should be out there most of the time. But in the interest of the BIG picture, sacrifices are made.

Culzie coming after Navarro was the best part of the exchange! PRICELESS! He sounded just like one of those angry parents! And when he was commenting on how much he is liked all I could think of was Will Farrell from Kicking and Screaming! Culzie is one of my favorite bloggers period.

Cheating would be if I were taking odds that little Johnny would cover the spread (or the over, which woulda been around 15pts.)

No, sorry Julie, I wasnt cheating, I was creating excitement in a sport at an age in kids when they had NO IDEA how exciting this game could be.

Feel free to ask more questions, before you level such harsh criticism next time.

Ive spent more time on a bball court than most of you combined, so dont tell me how to do my job, I dont come to McDonalds and tell you how to flip burgers do i?

I started an inner city meets suburban overnight camp. I played for NEIU, and coached kids so hard core & knew basketball at such a young age that they thought you were cheating them, they would string you up themselves, forget the parents.

See, I didnt say I always finessed games to be buzzer beaters on every level, but rather, when we would coach 15-20 games on a sunday between 3 kids out of 10 who could dribble more than four times without traveling, and we could barely keep them from going to the pop machine, let alone stay focused on plays and dribbling...etc....point is, i dont even have to explain myself mr guns of navaro, i just simply told you a little story about a time when my other house league refs and i would make it fun for the kids, to show you how little it takes to shape the outcome of a game. You know a little out of bounds here, a little jump ball there, i mean, i coulda called traveling and a foul on every play. If you had kids in a house league game, or ever sat around and watched a sunday full of 6 year olds trying to figure out how to put a jersey on and which way to go, youd actually have appreciated me. Gaurantee it.

Oh yeah, weird how someone who posts in a blog, thinks its an insult, to insult someone for posting in that same blog. Since when is it a bad thing to post in this blog? It takes about 10 minutes out of my day. Not sure how long it takes you to type out your posts, but for me, not that long.

Oh, and screw spelling, weve already covered that, there is no spell check here, I could care less, you can figure it out, try to attack my points next time and not my style of typing

You made no original points, you said things that others have already said, you are a parrot. At least WRD thinks for himself!

BDOG!

MJ was the biggest cheater in the game lady.

Go read his own book. He said, he would cheat, steal and lie to win.

See his hand check on Byron Russle if you have any question, also, he never came to watch, but Johnny Pax did. He was there every sunday and his boy was one of those kids that would shoot every time down the floor, regardless of score or other kids on the team. You tell me, who was the sportsman here!

Roman responds: What do you mean, he never came to watch? And whose boy? What are you talking about?

Gosh, the more I think about it, the more I am proud of myself. I think I probably inspired over 10,000 kids over the years to go on and be better people through basketball and through coaching.

Im not going to sit back and let some random posters who have never met me pass judgement on that.

I was a warrior of light, not a cheater. I used basketball as a vehicle to make kids better people and to increase their awareness. I always played everyone, I always wanted the worst kid on the team to score, and feel a part of the game, I told every kid that every came through our gym that his potential was limitless.

There is no question that what I did, made the world a better place.

Can you say that JB?

NBA refs dictating outcome of games??? my word, what next, crooked politicians?

After watching the disinterested, bad faith efforts of teams on the losing side of last season's nba playoff games, it was apparent that the teams that felt they weren't going to "get to win" just laid down. Didn't do much to reaffirm my faith in nba competition.

The true suprise here is that an nba ref would dare to skew calls for gamblers rather than the league's marketing strategy. I've officiated basketball games for many years, and this whole subject makes my skin crawl.

I'm reminded of a quote i heard long ago, where Jack Kent Cooke, the owner of the lakers at the time, was said to have told a young m.c. hammer, "don't ever bet on nba games!" The implication being you didn't have a fair chance since the outcome wasn't always due to odds only.

There is a crooked Ref, Umpire or player in every sport. I look at questionable games all the time. Just watch if the Cubs keep winning there will be a lot of strange calls go their way. Just like the Yankees, Norte Dame, New England Patriots, Lakers etc. When these teams are good the refs help make them great. I'm not surprised by this new incident. If you look closely at other sports you may find more.

Stern couldnt do anything because the feds told him he couldnt blow their investigation. Lets not forget that they found out about this on a Gambino family wire tap. Sterns investigation found nothing.

Now they want this guy to blow the whistle on the mob?

Funny, how they want a whistle blower, to be a whistle blower!?!?!

Hey Roman, if your gonna post all these other peoples scathing attacks on me, you can at least post my response!

Roman responds: Hey, take it easy. Contrary to what you may think, I have a life outside of this blog. I don't sit here 24/7 posting everyboyd's comments. Give me a second.

BC - I'll take back the word "cheating" in reference to what you did as a ref in kiddie basketball games, as it may be too harsh. However, as the mother of two young children, I would hate to learn that an adult in their lives acted dishonestly in any manner. I don't know how you or other parents would feel, BC, but I personally would not like it. I try to teach my kids to be good people and teach them right from wrong, but I know how difficult that is, and will be as they get older, because other adults do shape their lives. I have to put the ultimate trust in the adults my kids are surrounded by every day. I wish I could believe that everyone was honest and trustworthy in this world, but I know that's unrealistic. That's exactly what makes my job as a parent so difficult at times.

FYI, I'm not interested in fighting with you. I don't care if you don't like my posts or think I have valid points. I was offering my opinion on your argument with Mr. Navarro. You said you shaped the outcome of games that children were playing, and doubt I'm the only one here who thinks that's dishonest. Not sure what difference it makes to you how long it takes me to post a comment. And no, I'm not involved in basketball like you are, and I don't work at McDonald's. But I was an athlete in a sport with probably the most rampant cheating in the world, however - figure skating. So I do know what its like to have your best efforts not rewarded with the proper outcome. That's not easy for a parent to explain to a child.

my bad!

Mr. bculzie, you're an exciteable little booger aren't you. I would suggest staying off the coffee and re-reading your own work. You stated "so that they were ALWAYS buzzer beaters", that's what I went by. Also thanx for the Northeastern Illinois info. Now I know where not to send my kids as English majors. Anyway, I have a good friend who I played with and against from NEIU, George Shimko. If you know George ask him about a gentleman by the name of 'Tiger'. He'll take it from there. You may be enlightened to know you're not the only "player and teacher" on the face of the earth. "Warrior of light" --- your blogs are as contradictory as Mr. Stern. Again, Is it football season yet!!!!

Thanks Keith!:)

I did make a lot of them buzzer beaters. It was the only way to pass the long days.

Im a good guy. Dont worry about me so much "Guns" i mean Tiger!

i am sure they will find away to blame this on hip hop culture,like everything else thats wrong in the world today!

That'll teach you not to mess with an ex-figure skater with spell check!!!!!!

culzie no matter what you say or how you argue your point what you did was wrong and did not benefit the kids. I spent several years coaching and umpiring Little League and what I despised most was coaches and parents that put winning above all else. I always taught the kids I coached that at this level what was most important was learning basics,team work,sportsmanship and fair play. My reputation with the league was such that one game when the guy that was to ump behind the plate didn't show up the parents from both teams agreed that rather then postpone the game and reschedule my assistant coach would run my team and I would ump behind the plate. The only incident in that game that created any angst with the parents was when I called my own son out on a close play at the plate that sent the game to extra innings. I remember my son looking up at me and shaking his head almost in disbelief but heard him telling one of his team mates on the way out onto the field...no it was a good call, close but the right call, the next time I cross the plate it won't be close. He hit the first pitch of the 3rd extra inning over the left field fence to end the game. Afterwards many of the parents from the other team came up to me and said great game I don't know anybody else that would have called his own kid out on that play. Don't kid yourself culsie both the parents and the kids the score.

I blame it on the movie 'Deliverance' being re-run on freakin A&E every other day!

People ask if Michael Vick should have known what was going on with the people he had in his house and the answer is Yes and if he is found guilty he should not ever play the sport again but there is a double standard. "The Great One" Wayne Gretzky should have known what his wife was doing in the same house but some how he didnt. She was gambling high stakes on sports but for some reason I havent heard anything about that. Thats a federal offense. Why havent the feds looked into that? Why has "The Great One" got a free pass? He had to be involved in what his wife was doing. There was no protesting nothing not even a mention on the news. Must be good to be the Great One...

Tim, your point makes no sense. Nobody said I put winning above all else. Dont make up new points to serve your sad and regretful little story about calling your own son out.

I think I made a great case for my argument and I think many agree.

Let me restate my point again. (and keep in mind, it was a point to show how easy and unnoticable a game can be influenced by a ref)

There was a time when I would ref 50+ house league games a week. At the more developmental levels, we would engineer games to be WAY MORE FUN than what would of happened if we let the natural flow or, called it by the book.

If you've ref'ed hoops, like you claim, then you know that there are not that many BLACK AND WHITE calls out there. As a ref you always make borderline calls, lots of times, you use the flow of the game to affect your call making, even at the highest level, so, that blows your whole argument out of the water.

Im sorry so many of you would rather "try" to find a weakness in my argument to exploit/expose, than to offer up new or original thoughts.

I love how out for blood everyone is.

I made a few close calls on a house league small fry game to keep it close and to stop "that one kid" ...you know that kid....who is WAY BETTER than everyone else on the floor...from just dropping 45 out of the 50 points and instead make it fun for the group and the parents (who regardless of your cherished little league memories, dont pay that much attention) to be more into it, and now I get called a CHEATER and so forth...and some nutball even said I should get STRUNG UP??? How freakin wacked out are you people??

Strung up for keeping it close in a house league game???

YOu were kidding right...Guns??

Go hunt down the mafia if you are so righteous, noble and just and if you feel you must right the worlds wrongs.....then..after that....maybe we can talk about my love of the game and how I was able to artistically enhance the flow of an otherwise lop-sided and travel laden game.

Try again Timmy!

Telander's column on cheaters was laughable. He puts cyclists in there - I mean does anybody have any doubts that most of these guys cheat...for like decades? It's such a niche sport though, that the general public doesn't really care.

It is interesting how King Lance Armstrong's long list of "irregularities" is dismissed by the media given Lance's significant contributions to cancer funding. Read the books on the sport especially when Armstrong was starting out. He's every bit as dirty as the rest of them...

Amazing how opiniated the judgements are about Barry Bonds, Micheal Vick, but not as venemous about a cheating referee!....hhhmmm...

I would have thought the posts would have RIP him a new one as Mariotti used this word? But it seems bculzie is getting RIP a new one.....

Hey bculzie, are these your words?

I started an inner city meets suburban overnight camp. I played for NEIU, and coached kids so hard core & knew basketball at such a young age that they thought you were cheating them, they would string you up themselves, forget the parents.

If I read this objectively & with your backwards thinking the suburban kids were hard core at these overnight camps who visited the inner city, correct? And the the suburban parents forgot to come. Why? They were not serving alcohol to the neighborhood teenagers in their homes, and letting them drive away intoxicated did they?

On your spelling:
Oh, and screw spelling, weve already covered that, there is no spell check here, I could care less, you can figure it out, try to attack my points next time and not my style of typing

Posted by: bculzie | July 24, 2007 09:31 AM

Attack your points?

You have to make clear, concise thoughts for rational analysis; after doing this then extrapolate and construct into a sequence of grammatically correct sentence(s) to create paragraphs where at this point type it for us to do what you asked. Okay?

LET'S RIP bculzie

So wait, you did it because you were bored, bculzie? "..the only way to pass the long days" you said, to be exact. I thought you said you did it "to make kids better people." Now I'm confused. Kinda "blows your whole argument out of the water" doesn't it?

Lets RIP, I was with you for a second there.

I agree, funny how im the target and not this mafia pocketed ref.

Maybe everyone is scared to say anything about the mob, kinda like they are scared to rip radical muslims.

Personally, I think this guy may have ruined Pro Hoops for a while. It could be hard to come back from this and it will take more than LeBron and an aging Shaq (hey, just curious, when people always talk about great black athletes, no one cries that there are not white guys thrown in the mix). Weird huh?

Ive coached kids from both city and subs that would drain threes from your room in your moms basement all the way to Arizona. What else do you want to know again?

If my posts are so hard to understand, then why all the comments? Clearly thats not true. You are all over my every thought.

JB, dont try to trap me with your symbolic logic. It would be impossible to increase the enjoyment of the kids and the fans without it necessarily increasing my own enjoyment and subsequently making the day seem less boring.

I bet if this ref got busted for making calls to make the game more enjoyable, there would be no outcry! Oh wait, thats exactly why they have rule changes EVERY YEAR.

I think if i were gambling on the outcome of my games, Or, if i engineered games to make my sons team win in extra innings, now that would be wrong, but what I did when I was coaching and reffing to make some cash and give back while i was in HS and College was not wrong in any way. Shame on you for even trying to spin it that way.

:)

Anyone else wanna chime in?

I bet if this ref got busted for making calls to make the game more enjoyable, there would be no outcry! Oh wait, thats exactly why they have rule changes EVERY YEAR.

I think if i were gambling on the outcome of my games, Or, if i engineered games to make my sons team win in extra innings, now that would be wrong, but what I did when I was coaching and reffing to make some cash and give back while i was in HS and College was not wrong in any way. Shame on you for even trying to spin it that way.

:)

I still wanna know how come nobody remembers the Micheal Irvin crack pipe story?

Talk about special treatment!

I heard the craziest interview with this former mafia captain. There is a snippit of it from his interview on Rome, but I heard it on extra sports 910 out here in AZ...

It was the craziest thing ever. He explained how they would approach athletes and refs and how they would make them an offer they couldnt refuse. He said they would send hot chicks with coke up to athletes and players to seduce them and get them to party a little, then come up to them and say..we got pictures....you better start shaving for us!

Michael Franzese [07/25/2007]
Michael Franzese, the former captain in the Columbo Crime Family is the Founder and Chairman of the Breaking Out Foundation and author of “Quitting the Mob” and "Blood Covenant” came into the studio to give his take about the NBA Referee Scandal and says that his immediate reaction is that the NBA needs to go into immediate “Damage Control”…but says that David Stern could have taken more responsibility. Michael talks about just how damaging a crooked referee in the sport can be and that it cuts into the heart of the game. Michael talks about how the NBA can get back the respect of the fans by taking responsibility for what has happened. Michael talks about Tim Donaghy being the first to be caught, but not the first to do it and says that he’s influenced “people” in the past in sports to do this. He says Tim was under pressure by the “no choice” situation to make bad calls or “get your legs broken” or put his family in danger. Michael talked about his surprise that the NBA took so long to figure it out and that Tim actually went to them instead to tell them about the investigation by the FBI. And why did the NBA not pull him out immediately after finding out? Michael says that Tim is the perfect profile of a guy who would get himself in debt and be looked for on the street by the Mob types out there. Michael gave his take if it’s ok or not for professionals in sports to “sometimes” gamble…saying that it’s generally a huge negative.

At least my comments are based on some kind of logic, BC. And in case you haven't noticed, nobody gives a rat's tushie about Michael Irvin. Was it your crack pipe? 'Cuz I don't know why else you'd be so interested.

culzie you missed my point entirely in your zeal to defend your position of "artistically enhancing" games. my pont was, and I will make a little s l o w e r now so you don't miss it, you were dishonest in the way you called games and unfair to that ONE KID that could drop 45 of a teams 50 points along with all the other kids. the object of teaching young sports teams is to teach sportsmanship, basic skills, teamwork and CHARACTER! you can't do that by "artistically enhancing" games. no matter how you slice it it is WRONG! the only thing that makes Donaghy more contemptable is he did it for money.

Give it up.

There was nothing wrong with what i did...since it produced WAY MORE GOOD, than letting one kid feel superior, because his dad made him dribble every day instead of play Xbox. Why should he get all the glory?

If you ever read...you should read Emmanual Kant, check out his "greatest good" theory.

Then get back to me.

And...i never inhaled!

Give it up already. There is no question that what I did was AWESOME and made things fun for more kids. You wont be able to demonstrate to me otherwise, because I was there, and I saw the results. I didnt just happen over night. We started by calling things by the book, and that sucked for everyone. You would get games that were 50-5 and you would have 3 out of the 5 kids crying because they never touched the ball....etc..etc...so...after trying it that way...you would slowly start to "not call 5 travels in a row on the slow fat kid, and youd let him double dribble a few times...so he could experience the feeling of getting a shot off....i know you all want your kid to drop 50 in a little league game, but its not as fun as it sounds....not game after game after day after day......no sir.

You wont get me to Acquiesce (points?) on this one. There was nothing wrong with what i did...I know this since it produced WAY MORE GOOD, than bad. Shaping a game that was fun for all rather than letting one kid feel superior, because his dad made him do dribbling excersises every day instead of play Xbox. Why should he get all the glory?

(are you john sheyers dad?)

If you ever read...you should read Emmanual Kant, check out his "greatest good" theory.

Then get back to me.

Weird how hung up on my you are though??

oh.....and...i never inhaled!

The NBA's response, from eTrueSports.com:

Breaking News: NBA Will No Longer Keep Score

Commissioner: "I Am Shocked, Shocked To Find Gambling Going On ..."

I agree with Culzie, it can be done and SHOULD be done! That kid that would score 50 has to be benched. And you certainly have to keep him and his buddies from stacking the deck. To run up a score is one of the most terrible messages that can be sent. Phantom fouls control the tempo and sometimes the tempers of players. Magic Johnson once said while taking a picture with Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, that he didn't want to stand too close to Mike because it was a foul. He was joking, but Magic knew what time it was. Those refs have been the silent managers of every hoops moment we know. Integrity is relative in this situation. It might be viewed as integrity to have a BALANCED, hardfought, entertaining game vs a blowout. The NBA thinks so.

It must be my birthday today!!!

Exactly Keith, and also, my orinial point wasnt to just say I was 'finessing the flow' to screw the good kids, my whole point of even bringing this up, was, right or wrong, its easy to do.

reffing by its very nature is subjective. Otherwise it would be automated. See Tennis for what im talking about. Soon, there will be no refs, just laser lines and instant replay.

Keith nailed this whole debate with one line...

"Those refs have been the silent managers of every hoops moment we know"

...and you know i wouldnt just agree with a sox fan if he wasnt actually dead on!

Also, after listening to Michael Franzese (NY Mob Captain - Highest earner for the gambino family) talk about his days of fixing games, i heard him say something that really freaked me out... its still a work in progress, but see if you can follow...

he said that they use to get people to throw games (pre-point spread) and they had to shift their tactics from getting guys to throw games, since many athletes had issues not playing to win...and couldnt let themselves throw games they could win..... to just getting them to shave points as to beat the spread.

am I the only one who sees that the ENTIRE CONCEPT OF POINT SPREAD is designed to allow for point shaving???

If there wasnt a handicap, there wouldnt be the ability to shave points.

It would be either win or lose.

So, doesnt the spread itself, invite shaving?

Also, after listening to Michael Franzese (NY Mob Captain - Highest earner for the gambino family) talk about his days of fixing games, i heard him say something that really freaked me out... its still a work in progress, but see if you can follow...

he said that they use to get people to throw games (pre-point spread) and they had to shift their tactics from getting guys to throw games, since many athletes had issues not playing to win...and couldnt let themselves throw games they could win..... to just getting them to shave points as to beat the spread.

am I the only one who sees that the ENTIRE CONCEPT OF POINT SPREAD is designed to allow for point shaving???

If there wasnt a handicap, there wouldnt be the ability to shave points.

It would be either win or lose.

So, doesnt the point spread itself, invite shaving?

I agree with Culzie too!

Best line of the week award goes to Keith..

"Those refs have been the silent managers of every hoops moment we know"

...i couldnt have said that better myself.

That's 2 points for you Culzie! You've earned one for the fancy word, and one for spelling it correctly. So that brings you up to -10.

Hey, What did I miss?

Hey William - where have you been all week? I coulda used a little support from you on this one! I can only guess what side you're on, but points are still available!!!!! I blog missed you, WRD.

Well, my former blog wife, I have to tell you that I did agree with a LOT of what you said but I'm keeping my fingers shut because I've seen a couple of times where I am being baited. I just don't need or want a running argument because like I said before I'm not even trying to go there. No one can argue without another participant. And Mr Little that took great courage to call your kid out. That speaks of great integrity. I'm a former soldier and I fail to see that in civilian life. Man, I got goose bumps on my bald head reading that passage. Thank God that there are guys like you in this world.

Big Willie is right, it was quite refreshing to read about Tim's big call. You could write a kids book about that. It was huge, and it shows what kind of PARENT you are that your kid could accept that. Tim's kid is what we ALL strive for as parents. What make's it bookworthy is its rarity. Just aren't many Tim's out there.

On the other hand Bculzie, Julies and Roman brought out great points about the darker side of sports. Cheating happens, and the MOB exists for this purpose. There is a whole consortium built around sports because people make mistakes like Pete Rose and Tim Donagy. And when people cheat or show favoritism, you have to have people like Bculzie there to balance the scales. I dont believe what culzie was doing was cheating, he was policing which is part of a ref/coaches job. When the Bculzies are not there, then Parents like Julie are hurt and the children become jaded like - dare I say it, Barry Bonds. And they play the game not caring about nothing but their stats and money. That is what cheating does to sports.

I believe this whole debate has been about sports ethics, and its been a good one.

thank you Mr Donald it's nice to know there are still some people that believe in integrity. and you're right it takes at least 2 people to have an argument and after making my point and realizing it was totally lost on the individual I decided the greatest good would be served by no longer pursuing the subject.

oh and by the way, back in the day yes I did inhale, yes I had sex with that woman and now where did I put those hershey bars?

Thanks again Keith, where do you want me to send that checK?

Tim..did you say greatest good? Hmmm....did you take my advice?

GARNETT TRADED TO CELTICS FOR BAG OF BALLS - DONE DEAL - ESPN BOSTON GLOBE 3:06pm PST

KGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG in the EAST?????
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

bculz.....no I've known the "greater good" theory for a long time and the perception of just what the greater good is happens to be very subjective....in this case the greater good (from my perspective)is to spare the readers any further phsyco-babble about the benefits of artistically enhancing games through creative refereeing which by the standards I was taught as I grew up is nothing more than cheating. Since you and I obviously have different values in this regard I am merely accepting that there is no more reason to continue the debate.

Nice parting Jab, and attepting to sum it up as if I have lesser values than you Tim Little. Let me sum it up by this, you got verbally smacked down for picking on an inane (points?) part of my story that wasnt even suppose to be about me, but about how easy it is for refs to shape the outcome of a game.

Thats it. It was your own psyco- (but Kant is actually Philosophy not psychology - so it would actually be Philo-Babble, but thats for another thread)......but it was your own babble that exposed/exploited your own insecurities about what YOU did when you refed. I am 100% comfortable with my own actions, which I and others have deemed to be just and noble. I did Good, my Moral fiber is still in tact, and you just come off petty and bitter and unable to let it go.

So...it will be me who ends this debate. Since I won it.

~Finto~

Dad and other dad please stop fighting!!! You're gonna make me cut my corn rows if you don't stop. Wait a minute I have traffic court next week. Gotta cut em' anyway.

William there was no fight just a simple free exchange of differences of opinion and philosophy. Personally I enjoy reading bculz' posts even when I don't agree with him. In this instance although I understand and appreciate his point of view I disagree with it and he disagree's with mine. no winner, no loser just two opposite ponts of view and if he and i were to actually sit down face to face I believe that we'd end up agreeing on something in the middle of both positions.

Willy - you're already bald, dude. This argument has no winner, 'kay guys. It's ridiculous, already. I'll start docking points again. BC - no points for inane. Too many other grammatical errors in your post.

I love you guys!

Would we hold hands and look into each others eyes too?

Thanks Tim, I love reading my posts too!

Willy, you are funny dude...i take it all back!

Julie - grammer cant keep up with the speed in which i type....I cant worry about grammer if I want to keep the thoughts flowin freely.

Keith, love ya!

actually...i love all you guys...and now im going home!

I suppose I could have given you points for the Kant reference, but then you blew it with finto.

You know Julie people ask me why I shave my head. I tell them that it grows fast everywhere but in the middle. I wish I could grow corn rows,dreads,braids ,afros and even comb-overs. They really knew what they were saying when they said that you never miss something until it's gone. HAIR!!!!WHY????!!!!!

Good Morning! Happy Friday! Welcome to Roman's Empire, the best kept secret in Chicago! Where the most passionate and personal Sports fans in the world converse 24/7!

We ought to be thankful we can even reach a guy like Roman who, through this blog, has his finger on the pulse of this city and its fans. I have friends/co-workers I can't even have some of these discussions with. And the topics discussed here are more provocative than any sports shows I've watched. Roman this blog is like crack! I simply cannot get enough! When I am not typing I am reading it. Its like being part of a great sports-soap-opera!

Roman responds: Take it easy.

Keith just wasnt getting the personal responses from you that he had been enjoying for so long. So he thought he'd go with the old brown noser approach.

I say Roman is lucky to have us!

Julie...you caught that...>DDDDDAMMIT MAN!

Keith, did someone put crack in your Froot Loops this morning?

Dont you mean cocoa pebbles?

(curious, what is the URL line for?) you want my website?

Just over the top happy today! And for no particular reason. Ever have a day like that?

I love Count Chocula.

I thought yall liked nice guys? It was a beautiful day in my neighborhood. LOL! Sugar Smacks and Alpha Bits!

Golden Graham!! I'm L.I. but when I have to have it it doesn't matter. Five minutes on the lips/2 hours in the bathroom.

(you may use HTML tags for style) ??? does anyone know how to do this?

1 & 100!

Golden Grahams are the bomb, and honey nut cheerios! Yep-Yep!

Im bored, can someone call me a cheater again??

Cuzie, thanks for the heads-up on that bit from etruesports about the NBA deciding not to keep score. Hiliarious stuff ...
Hendrik