Full Court Press

I am sensitive reagarding the ethical treatment of animals. It is important that for this to stop, we, from such a great distance ,do not focus our energy berating one individual. Rather understand the culture that deems this acceptable. Hopefully this
will allow us to understand and change our very own behaviors that
deem these actions as those of less importance in this world. Instead I will use my energy to hug my dog. Despite the fact that he is a bed-hog, overprotective,licks his butt, then has the nerve to try to lick my face.

Some of the things I've heard surrounding this are startling. In my lifetime, I've never heard of such cruelty even growing up in the inner city. If convicted, Vick deserves any and all punishment that he is sentenced to. I'll hold any judgement of Vick until he is convicted. Bear in mind, an indictment is still not proof of guilt. As is standard in cases such as this, someone cut a deal to give Vick up. We'll see how the defense attacks the credibility of the witness for the prosecution.

I'll wait for the judgement of the jury, but if Vick is convicted ANY of these counts, he should never be allowed to wear an NFL uniform again.

I suspect that given the disgusting nature of the alleged crimes, his endorsement portfolio has already been emptied. I can't think of a single sponsor that would want him as a spokesperson at this juncture. For a great many people in this country, the crimes he stands accused of are on a par with child molestation, because pit bulls are basically innocent, defensless creatures, regardless of their natural fighting instincts. In captivity they're as helpless as hamsters.

I'm sure he'll suit up and play this season, due to the fact that federal prosecutions usually procede at a snail's pace; but the Virginia branch of the Department Of Justice is known as the Rocket Docket, and I doubt that they'll cut him any slack (schedule-wise) even if Atlanta makes the playoffs.

In any case, Vick and his entire team will enter the upcoming season under the darkest of clouds.

Roman responds: I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse.

BTW ... If you've got Vick as the starter on your fantasy team, you might want to consider a trade.

Roman responds: Agreed. Rich people can get away with murder, but I'm guessing jail time.

Dogfighting is cruel but when I was a kid my dog Rusty used to fight other dogs in the neighborhood. We'd watch in amazement but I don't think we ever put him up to it. Cock fighting was and still is an underground sport. Horse racing is considered cruel because even though you have small guys on their backs they are still hit to move faster. They take a pounding. And once the horse break a leg he is destroyed. As far as PETA is concerned anything you do to animals is cruel. The lady with a fur coat got it from a killed for the coat only seal. Zoos and circuses are considered cruel because the animals are caged. Because they're dogs very few want to make an exception for cruelty. I've seen guys go to jail for shooting a neighbor's dog and I've seen guys get off after killing a human being. Everything should be across the board punishable regardless how much money you have. And Vick being the face of lawlessness: yeah,today, only because the guys who killed someone drunk driving and trying to avoid paying child support have been forgotten,because we tend to forget after a while. What these guys are doing is very small when you consider the scale on which all other players are minding their business and staying out of trouble. The next time I see who the players contribute to with charity end up splattered all over the sports pages it will be the first time. No one cares when the players care. They only care when they act up. No one cared about Mooses causes or any one those charitable guys ,they've only cared about Tank and his problems. I know that player are out there being kind and law abiding citizens. The media knows that, too. All they care about is harping on the negatives. When will we see how the players like Zorich used to give and still give? No one want that warm and fuzzy feeling anymore. They want you to take a bath after you watch everything in the news. Where have you gone,Frank Mathey?

Roman responds: William, I'm not saying there isn't some validity to your argument, but if you didn't see the Zorich/Thanksgiving stories or other stories about athletes and charities, you're not paying attention. Although I will say many in the media - including myself - get a little skeptical about athletes and their charity work. I think media types are just skeptical in general.

I'd say Vick doesn't get jail time at all. Maybe he'll get some of that "extra, super, serous, I'm warning you for the millionth time for the last time, I just bought season tickets" probation.

The bit about good deeds going unseen is not true. I've seen many programs on the news and elsewhere detailing the charitable acts of NBA/NFL athletes, even if it's indirect.

I'm saying that we gloss over that. There are plenty of players who do charity and it's not as newsworthy as the other stuff. People in general,nowadays want the in your face "football player's wives" attitude in sports. They don't sell papers because of charity. Tuesdays are the slowest days for news: is it coincidence that the indictment made it out on Tuesday? I'm not saying all-out conspiracy, but it get out better when nothing else is going on. Some days are just not big newsdays and some people are very aware of that. You can't tell me that no one saw this coming. No one does anything anymore without someone finding out. If Jimmy Hoffa was killed in 2007 it would be a reality show. " BURYING JIMMY HOFFA". I didn't see any hint that this was coming at all. I'm puzzled and amazed.

Hey...just so everyone understands the gravity here. This isnt some girl accusing Kobe of rape..or some stripper saying someone hit her. This isnt some back country prosecutor....THIS IS THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT. you know....THE FEDS!!!??

They have probably been building a case against this entire dog fighting Ring, not just Vick, I just suspect that VICK was SOOOOOOO ENVOLVED that they had no choice but to indict him as the point man.

Also, what better way to bring this nasty business to lite, than to have a cover bad boy like Vick. This is one of those deals that transcends sports and because part of the public dialogue. It will be on EVERY radio show, news show, sports talk show, blog, newspaper etc. Its bigger than PARIS going to jail ;)

I kind of hear what WRD is saying about how we slaughter innocent animals all the time. Although...we EAT chickens...and horses arent bread to FIGHT, and if they are too scared to run, they arent BODY SLAMMED or electrocuted. But we do take a lot of libertys when we pick and choose which animals are ok to kill and which ones arent. I wear leather shoes.

Also, I see Charity specials ALL THE TIME, they have a charity expose'in ESPN's pregame coverage every week.

'Bad News' Indeed!

Before the Feds indict, they have all the evidence they need to secure a conviction. Vick will either enter a plea or be found guilty at trial. Will he do jail time? things to consider are his previous record, his job status...I doubt he does time, but his star has been dimmed forever.

By the way...is he really that good? It seems to me that less acclaimed QB's have done a much better job, Brees, Cutler, even Grossman. A great athlete, but not a winner, on or off the field.

I was actually peeved i forgot my name. Im proud of my work.

So..here it is again, My rank of Issues Vick has now...

1.FEDERAL CHARGES
2.NFL PUNISHMENT/POSSIBLE EXPULSION
3.CORPORATE SPONSORSHIP - MOST LIKELY WILL LOSE ALL OF IT
4.FINANCIAL LOSS (OK, THIS COULD BE A SUBSET OF #3)
5. BAD HAIR...STILL
6.HURTS HIS TEAM WHO WOULDA BEEN A LEGIT CONTENDER THIS YEAR.
7.WEAKENS MY QB DRAFT POOL CHOICES AND DENYS ME OF THE OPPORTUNITY OF DRAFTING HIM AND THEN TRADING HIM AWAY FOR VINCE YOUNG, AGAIN THIS YEAR.
8. JUST MADE HIS LITTLE BROTHER LOOK LIKE A CHOIR BOY
9. EVERYONE NOW KNOWS HIS MOMS CALLS HIM OOKIE
10. STILL LIVES IN VIRGINIA

We also added

11. Making PAC MAN Look good.
12. Eternal Damnation
and

13.Probably wont get man of the year???

Thanks for starting this thread, Roman. At the end of the Tank thread, Keith said that people on this blog are acting like they've never heard of dogfighting. Well, before the Vick case came to light, I had never heard of it to this extent. I could not believe my eyes when I read the details of his indictment. It's truly hard to believe that this is somehow an accepted culture anywhere in the world. Keith, I'm not saying Vick is going to turn into Jeffrey Dahmer. Of course not. But where does he draw the line? What does he consider unacceptable behavior? He was not just betting on the dogs - he ran the whole show. He owned dogs for the sole purpose of torturing them, while hopefully winning big. And when they did not win a fight, he murdered them. He had t-shirts printed advertising his organization. How crass is that? This clearly is not a person who has the ability to differentiate between right and wrong. I know these are just allegations, but there's a ton of evidence against him. I wouldn't be surprised if his co-defendants turn on him either. Even if he doesn't go to jail, he's going to miss a significant time this season due to his trial. But I'd say not playing football is the least of his worries right now.

BTW, Anonymous - the only guy you could possibly fleece in a trade if you own Vick is the dude from the T.J. Who's-Your-Momma commercials.

I've always been a fan of Michael Vick. Though he wasn't the best passing QB, I was still amazed by his talents. With that being said, I can't bring myself to even try to defend Vick on this one. Hosing down a dog then electricuting it? Hanging dogs? Simply because it couldn't fight? I mean fighting dogs is bad enough, but killing them by those means is just crazy! People makes mistakes, and I understand that. We are all human, but we are not all criminals. And the brutality that Vick is being accused of is plain criminal, I don't care how you look at it. On top of that, he should be smarter than that! He is the face of the franchise. A superstar QB that Just signed the richest NFL contract ever, and he's gonna jeopardize his career over dog fighting?!!! He needs to have his behind locked up for being dumb, let alone criminal. I sincerely hope he didn't take part in everything the feds are charging him with. All I know is that if they can get a conviction and Jail time on Scooter Libby, what do you think they will do to Vick.

I do not think that the vast majority of Americans regard dogfighting as acceptable, or that our culture views it as acceptable. If we did, you would not have the reaction to these charges that you have, nor would you have laws in every state against it. What is truly frightening is that initially, you had other football players defending Vick, and saying that it is his own business what he does on his property. There is this undercurrent among professional athletes that they are above the law, or have a different set of rules that they operate under. They are beginning to learn, through Pacman Jones, Tank Johnson, too many Cincinnati Bengals to count, that this is not the case. Given the language of the indictment, I am not sure that I really want to hear all of the gory details that are going to come out in court, but when they do, how many people are going to want to defend or cheer for Vick then? For that matter, how is the NFL going to deal with this? This is cruelty, this is brutality, this is behavior that is absolutely sickening to the average person. It this what they want people to think about when the Falcons, or any other team is playing? As for the Falcons, they had better start looking real fast for a quarterback, because Vick's going to have a lot of other things on his mind besides running from defenses.

Roman sez: "I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse."

The good people at PETA would beg to differ. If given the choice between feeding a starving human or a starving dog, many of them would feed the pooch.

BTW ... Can you tell us how much money Atlanta is on the hook for if they were to cut Vick before the beginning of the season? How big was his signing bonus, and how much of it counts against the cap? This might leave the Falcons a bit hamstrung.

I believe if they were to outright release him, the entire bonus figure would be counted against the cap in 2007, rather than being amortized throughout the duration of the contract, but I'm not sure.

Roman responds: PETA would feed the child.

Julie sez: "BTW, Anonymous - the only guy you could possibly fleece in a trade if you own Vick is the dude from the T.J. Who's-Your-Momma commercials."

Wow ... I didn't realize that I was posting without a name until you brought it to my attention.

Thanks,
Mark

Jermaine sez: "All I know is that if they can get a conviction and Jail time on Scooter Libby, what do you think they will do to Vick."

You hit the nail on the head. There's a very good reason that the feds have a 95 percent conviction rate, and it isn't blind luck.

They never procede to trial unless they have a strong case and enough evidence to virtually guarantee a guilty verdict. You won't find many morons like Mr. Nifong working as federal prosecutors.

the mistreatment of any domesticated animal should be dealt with severely. training an animal that has been domesticated to the point that it's sole ambition is to please it's owner to revert back to it's original disposition and then toss it into a pit to bet on it is not just immoral but sadistic. I am not a supporter of PETA and disagree with much of their philosophy ( I have hunted for years and killed my share of game that ended up on my table). if all the reports are in fact true Vick deserves what ever punishment he receives including lifetime suspension from the NFL. but then I have to ask myself how many people condemming Vick are paying $49.95 to watch ultimate cage fighting on pay-per-view? granted the loser in cage fighting is not buried in the middle of the night or tossed out in a garbage bag but those fans are just as blood thirsty. you can make the argument that cage fighters are there of their own free will and the dogs have no choice but how many of those fighters are no more inteligent than a dog? Don't get me wrong here I am not dissing professional boxing which is a battle of skill and strength or pro wrestling which is staged entertainment. cage fighting is no more than a sanctioned street fight where anything goes.

Roman responds: Tim, you make a point about the bloodthirsty nature of many sports and fans, whether it's NASCAR crashes or bone-jarring hits in football or knockouts in boxing and mixed martial arts, but you obviously don't know the Ultimate Fighting Championship. That's the one fought in an Octagon, or a cage, and those guys are not street fighters. They're former college wrestlers and black belts in disciplines like jiu jitzu and judo and kick boxing. It's really a blend of martial arts honed to the highest levels. And it's much less dangerous than boxing because the goal isn't always to knock your opponent's head off. It's often to submit him in a wrestling move. I'm a big fan, and I pay that $49.95, but it's not to a street fight. You don't have to pay to see those.

Not just Scooter Libby but also the Enron CEO with all of their high powered lawyers. The feds get their man in most cases. But, I caution anyone with jumping to the conclusion that he is already guilty. We still don't know the extent of his involvement if he had any at all. Just last week, the reports were saying that he was not a suspect at all. We can reference the Duke Lacrosse team, Ray Lewis trial, O.J. Simpson, Kobe Bryant case and currently the Balco grand jury. I know that all of these cases weren't federal but in all of these cases, we jumped to the conclusion that the guy was guilty. In Kobe's case, he lost all of his endorsements and was considered a bad guy. Now, he's back as the hot guy in endorsements. Ray Lewis is revered by Madison Avenue. If Vick is proven to be innocent, in a few years he'll be in the same boat. But, if he is guilty, I hope they throw the book at him.

Michael Vick has basically ruined his career by these acts of cruelty and shear stupidity. Not to mention the fact that he's probably lost millions in endorsements and contract money. Michael, aka Ron Mexico, even has the guts to say that he was letting his nephew use his house and had no idea of what was going on. I'm really tired of professional athletes and celebrities playing dumb. If you do the crime, do the time. Thankfully, I don't see his status or money bailing him out. Looks like the FEDS have been mounting a case against Vick for a long time. Question is, how much jail time will he do? I'm guessing at least two years. Let's see Vick try to scramble his way out of this one.

Its not a matter of animal rights being a focus now over human rights when it comes to the charges against Vick. Its the specific charges of grisly violence that raise alarm bells. Violence of that nature when applied by anyone are likely to be applied to ANY living thing, including humans. That type of violence recalls the Nazi torture methods of WWII. That in itself is reason to make an example of him in court. A dog not performing well is another way of saying not violent enough. If he is guilty throw the book at him and end his career in the NFL. If his career isn't ended by this if true, its basically a slap on the wrist, even if time is served. Its that type of violent culture-line of thinking that needs to be erased. If doing so means erasing his career, so be it. Don't shed tears for his career, he has millions in the bank already. He won't starve, or be electrocuted, drown, slammed to death or ripped to pieces. Also, its very likely the surviving dogs will be put down as they have been trained to be violent, and tortured, and abused. Nice legacy Mike. Anyone out there wanna be like this Mike?

I don't see how Vick didn't know this was going on. That was what he first claimed and i don't really believe that. If these charges are true, considering all that has gone on in the NFL recently, he has to be banned permanently.

Mike is on his way to jail...and while he's in his cell..I have a 140 pound British Staff who needs a beeatch....The thought of Brutus Maximus pulling Vick out of his bunk brings a smile..

Mistreatment of animals is all too common in many directions, not just regarding dogs. Let's hope the Vick notoriety opens eyes in other directions as well. One of my pet peeves is so-called sportsmen who shoot dizzy pheasants which have been swung around in a gunney sack, placed in one or two feet of cover(too dizzy to move), and then hunted by dogs led to the spots by guides so said sportsmen can shoot them.

I probably should not have posted on the subject last night. I regret it. Vick is wrong as two left shoes, but all I ask is that we keep it all in perspective. I respect those that love animals and ALL living things, but I believe HUMANS belong at the top of that list. If it were children displaying disturbing acts of violence against animals, then I would be VERY concerned.

Americans like BLOOD and carnage spectator sports. Fight Clubs and Ultimate Fighting is about the same thing that Dog Fighting is about - B L O O D. Boxing is as brutal as it used to get, but folks thirst for more blood - enter the age of extremism. We are getting close to the Romans and it wouldn't surprise me to see a joker in the ring with a Lion. (we already saw the man and the stingray and other dangerous animals) Vick is wrong for fighting dogs, but in the area we live in...its par for the course. If someone came up with a dogfighting channel, it would not surprise me one bit! And I won't display thumbs down in the blog-o-sium for ending his entire career, especially when Marv bit that lady and he is back like it never happened (and rightfully so). Its not a laughing matter.

IS NFL FOOTBALL NOT JUST ANOTHER FORM OF DOG FIGHTING THAT OLD RICH WHITE GUYS(THE OWNERS) PRACTICE TO GET A RUSH WITH MAINLY YOUNG, PREDOMANTLEY BLACK PLAYERS WHO ARE PRONE TO VIOLENT ACTIVITY PLAYING THE ROLE THEIR FIGHTING DOGS????????????IS DOG FIGHTING NOT JUST A WAY FOR FRUSTRATED YOUNG PEOPLE TO MIMIC WHAT THE FAT CATS WHO CONTROL SOCIETY DO OUT OF CRUELTY AND A LUST FOR POWER???THE NFL USES ITS PLAYERS UNTIL THEY CAN´T FIGHT ANYMORE AND THEN THEY ABANDON THEM!!! I BELIEVE(SADLY) THAT IF DOG FIGHTING WERE LEGAL,IT WOULD GARNER HIGHER TV RATINGS THAN THE NFL.ALL OF THAT BEING SAID, I AM JUST AS GUILTY AS THE NEXT GUY BECAUSE I LOVE WATCHING FOOTBALL AND ESPECIALLY GET A RUSH FROM SEEING BONE-JARRING HITS!IF I AM WRONG, WHY DO THINGS LIKE LT´S HIT ON THEISMAN GET REPLAYED MANY MORE TIMES THAN SAY A JERRY RICE ON-HANDED TD GRAB? VICK AND HIS KIND(DOG FIGHTERS) ARE SICK, BUT THEN AGAIN, THEY PLAY A VIOLENT GAME SO THEY NEED TO SINK WAY LOWER TO FIND SOMETHING TO GIVE THEM THEIR VIOLENT CHEAP THRILLS.

Roman responds: Your message, which is interesting, gets lost behind your ALL-CAP style. Please don't do it again. It's disturbing.

"Forget about a dog fool, he'll S***in the den,
nowadays, a gat is man's best friend......

Just don't let me see you shoot no dogs"
(Ice Cube)

Ro' we don't disagree often but this is on par w/ child abuse. At least a child can speak out against their abuse... These DEFENSELESS animals cannot. I'm not over the top about animal rights (i.e. I'm not a member of ALF, but it's a great idea) but this is wretched. I was so glad to hear the Feds were getting involved because the local prosecutor was pussy-footing around. Ever since the Duke rape case every DA and prosecutor are so timid to convict anyone with any celebrity that Vick almost got away with this. Portis tried to -initially- play it off like it was no big deal... I believe the quote was something to the likes of: "...it's no big deal, it's just dog fighting. Go drive around any back-wood area and it's rampant..." That may be the case. But, the more that are tried and suffer punishment the better. There's no reason to let Vick walk just because he was $130 mil in the bank... actually, it's all the more reason to aggressively try him and hold him accountable for his actions. The NFL has a conduct policy for a reason. Just being linked to this he should be suspended (without pay) and not let back until it's all figured out. Even if he wasn't actually at the fights, he facilitated them. Guilt by association anyone?
Personally, I hope he is thrown in jail for the 6 yr max (NOT ENOUGH) a
He's disgusting. What he's done to these animals cannot be compensated for by a fine and a stint in jail.
*I agree with Mr. Modrowski that no one with a conscious should be able to see this, know what's going on and NOT do something about it.

Fuff does make a good point, except one thing I cant figure out. I do like a good solid tackle and bone jarring hit, i really really love it. But I actually cant watch when they show the Theisman hit or when they show some skateboarder rack his cahoones on a railing. I actually cant watch that, it repulses me, physically. How do you explain that?

I like a good boxing match, but cant stand watching street fighting or cheap shots (like those kids in that HS football crowd a couple years ago).

I like Gladiator and Braveheart, but I get queezy if I look into a car accident and actually see someone? Although I look, i really dont want to see anything.

Am I alone on this?

You think this is bad...wait till it comes out that these dogs were on Steroids!!!!!

If Vick is guilty, he should be banned from the NFL for life. It's a heinous and extremely disturbing crime, and he should pay for it with his livelihood. I'd honestly would seriously question my support of the nfl if he were convicted and allowed to play again.

Some philisophical thinking for you Roman. "Roman responds: I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse." I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, as child abuse of all sorts is certainly at least just as bad, but isn't it this type of "human dominant culture" thinking screwing up our whole world? With a general thought of human superiority, we are ruining the earth, killing off species with complete disregard, tearing down forests at record pace and abusing animals to an unimaginable extreme. And that's just the start. Anyway, it's a thought to consider, whether abusing and murdering many many dogs for play and profit is any worse than ruining human lives? Are humans really "worth" more than dogs? Says who? You think those dogs would agree? I don't have an answer, but I think it's an interesting thing to consider.

Finally, I also believe this is a reflection on our society in general. We live in a culture that loves violence for some reason. This is reflected, for example, in that sexual assault is treated almost as a minor crime (if it's acquiantance or date rape for example, the case rarely is pursued in criminal courts), but you can be put in jail for 10 years (or more/less obviously depending) w/out parole for growing pot plants. Pot ain't meth or heroin. This communicates to me that what our culture/govt sees as more "dangerous" is people smoking pot as opposed to people violating other's bodies and souls and ruining lives. This also begins to bring into question the thought of male dominated culture (like human vs. animal/nature) vs. female. I could go on for a loooong time, but I'm starting to ramble and get off topic...

Interesting discussion, thanks Roman...

Roman responds: Great post. The reason pot isn't legal is because powerful lobbyists aren't trying to make it legal by buying lawmakers. That's all. Cigarettes are 1,0000 times more dangerous, even says so on the packs, but they're legal. Why? Duh. The tobacco lobby. Same with alcohol. It's just that rich white guys don't control pot, so it's a sinful, evil crime.

Roman you're right about my knowledge of the UFC and if my analogy was incorrect or offended you I appologize. I will admit I used to be a fan of boxing until the likes of Mike Tyson arrived and he was allowed to return to the ring and I have participated in martial arts with my sons who at one time acheived gold medals in national competition in Minnesota but as I've gotten older my appetite for any type of fighting is reserved for Jackie Chan movies where everything is choreographed. maybe my perception of UFC would be different if it wasn't hyped in the manner that it is and I may even watch the next televised match. I still do enjoy watching a well run martial arts competition where the object is to score points and not just kick some one silly.

Part of me hopes he doesn't play (not because he's probably guilty), but for the pandemonium that will follow him. Can you imagine him on the road in Philly or NY? Forget about somebody piping in "Who let the dogs out"...this guy is going to need some serious security around him if he gets on the field this year.

Samantha, I also have to turn my head when limbs get snapped or bent, but apparently many people watch it over and over again. If not, why does the media keep feeding or trying to feed us such violent images?... If people want more insight on what kind of a guy Vick is, google and read about the Ron Mexico incident and how it then became glorified to legendary heights by the mysognistic, "b's and ho's" portion of the hip-hop nation... We as sports fans have to stop referring to guys like Vick as superstars. I equate superstars with winning and making their teamates better by driving them and maximizing their skills even if that means sacrificing personal stats. If MJ had had this selfish, me first mentality, he could have averaged 50 pts a night and probably have never won a single title.

Roman responds: Great post. The reason pot isn't legal is because powerful lobbyists aren't trying to make it legal by buying lawmakers. That's all. Cigarettes are 1,0000 times more dangerous, even says so on the packs, but they're legal. Why? Duh. The tobacco lobby. Same with alcohol. It's just that rich white guys don't control pot, so it's a sinful, evil crime.

And....you cant grow asprin in your backyard!!!!