Is Vick new face of NFL's lawless image?

I am sensitive reagarding the ethical treatment of animals. It is important that for this to stop, we, from such a great distance ,do not focus our energy berating one individual. Rather understand the culture that deems this acceptable. Hopefully this
will allow us to understand and change our very own behaviors that
deem these actions as those of less importance in this world. Instead I will use my energy to hug my dog. Despite the fact that he is a bed-hog, overprotective,licks his butt, then has the nerve to try to lick my face.

Some of the things I've heard surrounding this are startling. In my lifetime, I've never heard of such cruelty even growing up in the inner city. If convicted, Vick deserves any and all punishment that he is sentenced to. I'll hold any judgement of Vick until he is convicted. Bear in mind, an indictment is still not proof of guilt. As is standard in cases such as this, someone cut a deal to give Vick up. We'll see how the defense attacks the credibility of the witness for the prosecution.

I'll wait for the judgement of the jury, but if Vick is convicted ANY of these counts, he should never be allowed to wear an NFL uniform again.

I suspect that given the disgusting nature of the alleged crimes, his endorsement portfolio has already been emptied. I can't think of a single sponsor that would want him as a spokesperson at this juncture. For a great many people in this country, the crimes he stands accused of are on a par with child molestation, because pit bulls are basically innocent, defensless creatures, regardless of their natural fighting instincts. In captivity they're as helpless as hamsters.

I'm sure he'll suit up and play this season, due to the fact that federal prosecutions usually procede at a snail's pace; but the Virginia branch of the Department Of Justice is known as the Rocket Docket, and I doubt that they'll cut him any slack (schedule-wise) even if Atlanta makes the playoffs.

In any case, Vick and his entire team will enter the upcoming season under the darkest of clouds.

Roman responds: I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse.

BTW ... If you've got Vick as the starter on your fantasy team, you might want to consider a trade.

Roman responds: Agreed. Rich people can get away with murder, but I'm guessing jail time.

Dogfighting is cruel but when I was a kid my dog Rusty used to fight other dogs in the neighborhood. We'd watch in amazement but I don't think we ever put him up to it. Cock fighting was and still is an underground sport. Horse racing is considered cruel because even though you have small guys on their backs they are still hit to move faster. They take a pounding. And once the horse break a leg he is destroyed. As far as PETA is concerned anything you do to animals is cruel. The lady with a fur coat got it from a killed for the coat only seal. Zoos and circuses are considered cruel because the animals are caged. Because they're dogs very few want to make an exception for cruelty. I've seen guys go to jail for shooting a neighbor's dog and I've seen guys get off after killing a human being. Everything should be across the board punishable regardless how much money you have. And Vick being the face of lawlessness: yeah,today, only because the guys who killed someone drunk driving and trying to avoid paying child support have been forgotten,because we tend to forget after a while. What these guys are doing is very small when you consider the scale on which all other players are minding their business and staying out of trouble. The next time I see who the players contribute to with charity end up splattered all over the sports pages it will be the first time. No one cares when the players care. They only care when they act up. No one cared about Mooses causes or any one those charitable guys ,they've only cared about Tank and his problems. I know that player are out there being kind and law abiding citizens. The media knows that, too. All they care about is harping on the negatives. When will we see how the players like Zorich used to give and still give? No one want that warm and fuzzy feeling anymore. They want you to take a bath after you watch everything in the news. Where have you gone,Frank Mathey?

Roman responds: William, I'm not saying there isn't some validity to your argument, but if you didn't see the Zorich/Thanksgiving stories or other stories about athletes and charities, you're not paying attention. Although I will say many in the media - including myself - get a little skeptical about athletes and their charity work. I think media types are just skeptical in general.

I'd say Vick doesn't get jail time at all. Maybe he'll get some of that "extra, super, serous, I'm warning you for the millionth time for the last time, I just bought season tickets" probation.

The bit about good deeds going unseen is not true. I've seen many programs on the news and elsewhere detailing the charitable acts of NBA/NFL athletes, even if it's indirect.

I'm saying that we gloss over that. There are plenty of players who do charity and it's not as newsworthy as the other stuff. People in general,nowadays want the in your face "football player's wives" attitude in sports. They don't sell papers because of charity. Tuesdays are the slowest days for news: is it coincidence that the indictment made it out on Tuesday? I'm not saying all-out conspiracy, but it get out better when nothing else is going on. Some days are just not big newsdays and some people are very aware of that. You can't tell me that no one saw this coming. No one does anything anymore without someone finding out. If Jimmy Hoffa was killed in 2007 it would be a reality show. " BURYING JIMMY HOFFA". I didn't see any hint that this was coming at all. I'm puzzled and amazed.

Hey...just so everyone understands the gravity here. This isnt some girl accusing Kobe of rape..or some stripper saying someone hit her. This isnt some back country prosecutor....THIS IS THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT. you know....THE FEDS!!!??

They have probably been building a case against this entire dog fighting Ring, not just Vick, I just suspect that VICK was SOOOOOOO ENVOLVED that they had no choice but to indict him as the point man.

Also, what better way to bring this nasty business to lite, than to have a cover bad boy like Vick. This is one of those deals that transcends sports and because part of the public dialogue. It will be on EVERY radio show, news show, sports talk show, blog, newspaper etc. Its bigger than PARIS going to jail ;)

I kind of hear what WRD is saying about how we slaughter innocent animals all the time. Although...we EAT chickens...and horses arent bread to FIGHT, and if they are too scared to run, they arent BODY SLAMMED or electrocuted. But we do take a lot of libertys when we pick and choose which animals are ok to kill and which ones arent. I wear leather shoes.

Also, I see Charity specials ALL THE TIME, they have a charity expose'in ESPN's pregame coverage every week.

'Bad News' Indeed!

Before the Feds indict, they have all the evidence they need to secure a conviction. Vick will either enter a plea or be found guilty at trial. Will he do jail time? things to consider are his previous record, his job status...I doubt he does time, but his star has been dimmed forever.

By the way...is he really that good? It seems to me that less acclaimed QB's have done a much better job, Brees, Cutler, even Grossman. A great athlete, but not a winner, on or off the field.

I was actually peeved i forgot my name. Im proud of my work.

So..here it is again, My rank of Issues Vick has now...

1.FEDERAL CHARGES
2.NFL PUNISHMENT/POSSIBLE EXPULSION
3.CORPORATE SPONSORSHIP - MOST LIKELY WILL LOSE ALL OF IT
4.FINANCIAL LOSS (OK, THIS COULD BE A SUBSET OF #3)
5. BAD HAIR...STILL
6.HURTS HIS TEAM WHO WOULDA BEEN A LEGIT CONTENDER THIS YEAR.
7.WEAKENS MY QB DRAFT POOL CHOICES AND DENYS ME OF THE OPPORTUNITY OF DRAFTING HIM AND THEN TRADING HIM AWAY FOR VINCE YOUNG, AGAIN THIS YEAR.
8. JUST MADE HIS LITTLE BROTHER LOOK LIKE A CHOIR BOY
9. EVERYONE NOW KNOWS HIS MOMS CALLS HIM OOKIE
10. STILL LIVES IN VIRGINIA

We also added

11. Making PAC MAN Look good.
12. Eternal Damnation
and

13.Probably wont get man of the year???

Thanks for starting this thread, Roman. At the end of the Tank thread, Keith said that people on this blog are acting like they've never heard of dogfighting. Well, before the Vick case came to light, I had never heard of it to this extent. I could not believe my eyes when I read the details of his indictment. It's truly hard to believe that this is somehow an accepted culture anywhere in the world. Keith, I'm not saying Vick is going to turn into Jeffrey Dahmer. Of course not. But where does he draw the line? What does he consider unacceptable behavior? He was not just betting on the dogs - he ran the whole show. He owned dogs for the sole purpose of torturing them, while hopefully winning big. And when they did not win a fight, he murdered them. He had t-shirts printed advertising his organization. How crass is that? This clearly is not a person who has the ability to differentiate between right and wrong. I know these are just allegations, but there's a ton of evidence against him. I wouldn't be surprised if his co-defendants turn on him either. Even if he doesn't go to jail, he's going to miss a significant time this season due to his trial. But I'd say not playing football is the least of his worries right now.

BTW, Anonymous - the only guy you could possibly fleece in a trade if you own Vick is the dude from the T.J. Who's-Your-Momma commercials.

I've always been a fan of Michael Vick. Though he wasn't the best passing QB, I was still amazed by his talents. With that being said, I can't bring myself to even try to defend Vick on this one. Hosing down a dog then electricuting it? Hanging dogs? Simply because it couldn't fight? I mean fighting dogs is bad enough, but killing them by those means is just crazy! People makes mistakes, and I understand that. We are all human, but we are not all criminals. And the brutality that Vick is being accused of is plain criminal, I don't care how you look at it. On top of that, he should be smarter than that! He is the face of the franchise. A superstar QB that Just signed the richest NFL contract ever, and he's gonna jeopardize his career over dog fighting?!!! He needs to have his behind locked up for being dumb, let alone criminal. I sincerely hope he didn't take part in everything the feds are charging him with. All I know is that if they can get a conviction and Jail time on Scooter Libby, what do you think they will do to Vick.

I do not think that the vast majority of Americans regard dogfighting as acceptable, or that our culture views it as acceptable. If we did, you would not have the reaction to these charges that you have, nor would you have laws in every state against it. What is truly frightening is that initially, you had other football players defending Vick, and saying that it is his own business what he does on his property. There is this undercurrent among professional athletes that they are above the law, or have a different set of rules that they operate under. They are beginning to learn, through Pacman Jones, Tank Johnson, too many Cincinnati Bengals to count, that this is not the case. Given the language of the indictment, I am not sure that I really want to hear all of the gory details that are going to come out in court, but when they do, how many people are going to want to defend or cheer for Vick then? For that matter, how is the NFL going to deal with this? This is cruelty, this is brutality, this is behavior that is absolutely sickening to the average person. It this what they want people to think about when the Falcons, or any other team is playing? As for the Falcons, they had better start looking real fast for a quarterback, because Vick's going to have a lot of other things on his mind besides running from defenses.

Roman sez: "I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse."

The good people at PETA would beg to differ. If given the choice between feeding a starving human or a starving dog, many of them would feed the pooch.

BTW ... Can you tell us how much money Atlanta is on the hook for if they were to cut Vick before the beginning of the season? How big was his signing bonus, and how much of it counts against the cap? This might leave the Falcons a bit hamstrung.

I believe if they were to outright release him, the entire bonus figure would be counted against the cap in 2007, rather than being amortized throughout the duration of the contract, but I'm not sure.

Roman responds: PETA would feed the child.

Julie sez: "BTW, Anonymous - the only guy you could possibly fleece in a trade if you own Vick is the dude from the T.J. Who's-Your-Momma commercials."

Wow ... I didn't realize that I was posting without a name until you brought it to my attention.

Thanks,
Mark

Jermaine sez: "All I know is that if they can get a conviction and Jail time on Scooter Libby, what do you think they will do to Vick."

You hit the nail on the head. There's a very good reason that the feds have a 95 percent conviction rate, and it isn't blind luck.

They never procede to trial unless they have a strong case and enough evidence to virtually guarantee a guilty verdict. You won't find many morons like Mr. Nifong working as federal prosecutors.

the mistreatment of any domesticated animal should be dealt with severely. training an animal that has been domesticated to the point that it's sole ambition is to please it's owner to revert back to it's original disposition and then toss it into a pit to bet on it is not just immoral but sadistic. I am not a supporter of PETA and disagree with much of their philosophy ( I have hunted for years and killed my share of game that ended up on my table). if all the reports are in fact true Vick deserves what ever punishment he receives including lifetime suspension from the NFL. but then I have to ask myself how many people condemming Vick are paying $49.95 to watch ultimate cage fighting on pay-per-view? granted the loser in cage fighting is not buried in the middle of the night or tossed out in a garbage bag but those fans are just as blood thirsty. you can make the argument that cage fighters are there of their own free will and the dogs have no choice but how many of those fighters are no more inteligent than a dog? Don't get me wrong here I am not dissing professional boxing which is a battle of skill and strength or pro wrestling which is staged entertainment. cage fighting is no more than a sanctioned street fight where anything goes.

Roman responds: Tim, you make a point about the bloodthirsty nature of many sports and fans, whether it's NASCAR crashes or bone-jarring hits in football or knockouts in boxing and mixed martial arts, but you obviously don't know the Ultimate Fighting Championship. That's the one fought in an Octagon, or a cage, and those guys are not street fighters. They're former college wrestlers and black belts in disciplines like jiu jitzu and judo and kick boxing. It's really a blend of martial arts honed to the highest levels. And it's much less dangerous than boxing because the goal isn't always to knock your opponent's head off. It's often to submit him in a wrestling move. I'm a big fan, and I pay that $49.95, but it's not to a street fight. You don't have to pay to see those.

Not just Scooter Libby but also the Enron CEO with all of their high powered lawyers. The feds get their man in most cases. But, I caution anyone with jumping to the conclusion that he is already guilty. We still don't know the extent of his involvement if he had any at all. Just last week, the reports were saying that he was not a suspect at all. We can reference the Duke Lacrosse team, Ray Lewis trial, O.J. Simpson, Kobe Bryant case and currently the Balco grand jury. I know that all of these cases weren't federal but in all of these cases, we jumped to the conclusion that the guy was guilty. In Kobe's case, he lost all of his endorsements and was considered a bad guy. Now, he's back as the hot guy in endorsements. Ray Lewis is revered by Madison Avenue. If Vick is proven to be innocent, in a few years he'll be in the same boat. But, if he is guilty, I hope they throw the book at him.

Michael Vick has basically ruined his career by these acts of cruelty and shear stupidity. Not to mention the fact that he's probably lost millions in endorsements and contract money. Michael, aka Ron Mexico, even has the guts to say that he was letting his nephew use his house and had no idea of what was going on. I'm really tired of professional athletes and celebrities playing dumb. If you do the crime, do the time. Thankfully, I don't see his status or money bailing him out. Looks like the FEDS have been mounting a case against Vick for a long time. Question is, how much jail time will he do? I'm guessing at least two years. Let's see Vick try to scramble his way out of this one.

Its not a matter of animal rights being a focus now over human rights when it comes to the charges against Vick. Its the specific charges of grisly violence that raise alarm bells. Violence of that nature when applied by anyone are likely to be applied to ANY living thing, including humans. That type of violence recalls the Nazi torture methods of WWII. That in itself is reason to make an example of him in court. A dog not performing well is another way of saying not violent enough. If he is guilty throw the book at him and end his career in the NFL. If his career isn't ended by this if true, its basically a slap on the wrist, even if time is served. Its that type of violent culture-line of thinking that needs to be erased. If doing so means erasing his career, so be it. Don't shed tears for his career, he has millions in the bank already. He won't starve, or be electrocuted, drown, slammed to death or ripped to pieces. Also, its very likely the surviving dogs will be put down as they have been trained to be violent, and tortured, and abused. Nice legacy Mike. Anyone out there wanna be like this Mike?

I don't see how Vick didn't know this was going on. That was what he first claimed and i don't really believe that. If these charges are true, considering all that has gone on in the NFL recently, he has to be banned permanently.

Mike is on his way to jail...and while he's in his cell..I have a 140 pound British Staff who needs a beeatch....The thought of Brutus Maximus pulling Vick out of his bunk brings a smile..

Mistreatment of animals is all too common in many directions, not just regarding dogs. Let's hope the Vick notoriety opens eyes in other directions as well. One of my pet peeves is so-called sportsmen who shoot dizzy pheasants which have been swung around in a gunney sack, placed in one or two feet of cover(too dizzy to move), and then hunted by dogs led to the spots by guides so said sportsmen can shoot them.

I probably should not have posted on the subject last night. I regret it. Vick is wrong as two left shoes, but all I ask is that we keep it all in perspective. I respect those that love animals and ALL living things, but I believe HUMANS belong at the top of that list. If it were children displaying disturbing acts of violence against animals, then I would be VERY concerned.

Americans like BLOOD and carnage spectator sports. Fight Clubs and Ultimate Fighting is about the same thing that Dog Fighting is about - B L O O D. Boxing is as brutal as it used to get, but folks thirst for more blood - enter the age of extremism. We are getting close to the Romans and it wouldn't surprise me to see a joker in the ring with a Lion. (we already saw the man and the stingray and other dangerous animals) Vick is wrong for fighting dogs, but in the area we live in...its par for the course. If someone came up with a dogfighting channel, it would not surprise me one bit! And I won't display thumbs down in the blog-o-sium for ending his entire career, especially when Marv bit that lady and he is back like it never happened (and rightfully so). Its not a laughing matter.

IS NFL FOOTBALL NOT JUST ANOTHER FORM OF DOG FIGHTING THAT OLD RICH WHITE GUYS(THE OWNERS) PRACTICE TO GET A RUSH WITH MAINLY YOUNG, PREDOMANTLEY BLACK PLAYERS WHO ARE PRONE TO VIOLENT ACTIVITY PLAYING THE ROLE THEIR FIGHTING DOGS????????????IS DOG FIGHTING NOT JUST A WAY FOR FRUSTRATED YOUNG PEOPLE TO MIMIC WHAT THE FAT CATS WHO CONTROL SOCIETY DO OUT OF CRUELTY AND A LUST FOR POWER???THE NFL USES ITS PLAYERS UNTIL THEY CAN´T FIGHT ANYMORE AND THEN THEY ABANDON THEM!!! I BELIEVE(SADLY) THAT IF DOG FIGHTING WERE LEGAL,IT WOULD GARNER HIGHER TV RATINGS THAN THE NFL.ALL OF THAT BEING SAID, I AM JUST AS GUILTY AS THE NEXT GUY BECAUSE I LOVE WATCHING FOOTBALL AND ESPECIALLY GET A RUSH FROM SEEING BONE-JARRING HITS!IF I AM WRONG, WHY DO THINGS LIKE LT´S HIT ON THEISMAN GET REPLAYED MANY MORE TIMES THAN SAY A JERRY RICE ON-HANDED TD GRAB? VICK AND HIS KIND(DOG FIGHTERS) ARE SICK, BUT THEN AGAIN, THEY PLAY A VIOLENT GAME SO THEY NEED TO SINK WAY LOWER TO FIND SOMETHING TO GIVE THEM THEIR VIOLENT CHEAP THRILLS.

Roman responds: Your message, which is interesting, gets lost behind your ALL-CAP style. Please don't do it again. It's disturbing.

"Forget about a dog fool, he'll S***in the den,
nowadays, a gat is man's best friend......

Just don't let me see you shoot no dogs"
(Ice Cube)

Ro' we don't disagree often but this is on par w/ child abuse. At least a child can speak out against their abuse... These DEFENSELESS animals cannot. I'm not over the top about animal rights (i.e. I'm not a member of ALF, but it's a great idea) but this is wretched. I was so glad to hear the Feds were getting involved because the local prosecutor was pussy-footing around. Ever since the Duke rape case every DA and prosecutor are so timid to convict anyone with any celebrity that Vick almost got away with this. Portis tried to -initially- play it off like it was no big deal... I believe the quote was something to the likes of: "...it's no big deal, it's just dog fighting. Go drive around any back-wood area and it's rampant..." That may be the case. But, the more that are tried and suffer punishment the better. There's no reason to let Vick walk just because he was $130 mil in the bank... actually, it's all the more reason to aggressively try him and hold him accountable for his actions. The NFL has a conduct policy for a reason. Just being linked to this he should be suspended (without pay) and not let back until it's all figured out. Even if he wasn't actually at the fights, he facilitated them. Guilt by association anyone?
Personally, I hope he is thrown in jail for the 6 yr max (NOT ENOUGH) a
He's disgusting. What he's done to these animals cannot be compensated for by a fine and a stint in jail.
*I agree with Mr. Modrowski that no one with a conscious should be able to see this, know what's going on and NOT do something about it.

Fuff does make a good point, except one thing I cant figure out. I do like a good solid tackle and bone jarring hit, i really really love it. But I actually cant watch when they show the Theisman hit or when they show some skateboarder rack his cahoones on a railing. I actually cant watch that, it repulses me, physically. How do you explain that?

I like a good boxing match, but cant stand watching street fighting or cheap shots (like those kids in that HS football crowd a couple years ago).

I like Gladiator and Braveheart, but I get queezy if I look into a car accident and actually see someone? Although I look, i really dont want to see anything.

Am I alone on this?

You think this is bad...wait till it comes out that these dogs were on Steroids!!!!!

If Vick is guilty, he should be banned from the NFL for life. It's a heinous and extremely disturbing crime, and he should pay for it with his livelihood. I'd honestly would seriously question my support of the nfl if he were convicted and allowed to play again.

Some philisophical thinking for you Roman. "Roman responds: I've been accused of being over the top concerning animal rights, but this is not on par with child abuse." I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, as child abuse of all sorts is certainly at least just as bad, but isn't it this type of "human dominant culture" thinking screwing up our whole world? With a general thought of human superiority, we are ruining the earth, killing off species with complete disregard, tearing down forests at record pace and abusing animals to an unimaginable extreme. And that's just the start. Anyway, it's a thought to consider, whether abusing and murdering many many dogs for play and profit is any worse than ruining human lives? Are humans really "worth" more than dogs? Says who? You think those dogs would agree? I don't have an answer, but I think it's an interesting thing to consider.

Finally, I also believe this is a reflection on our society in general. We live in a culture that loves violence for some reason. This is reflected, for example, in that sexual assault is treated almost as a minor crime (if it's acquiantance or date rape for example, the case rarely is pursued in criminal courts), but you can be put in jail for 10 years (or more/less obviously depending) w/out parole for growing pot plants. Pot ain't meth or heroin. This communicates to me that what our culture/govt sees as more "dangerous" is people smoking pot as opposed to people violating other's bodies and souls and ruining lives. This also begins to bring into question the thought of male dominated culture (like human vs. animal/nature) vs. female. I could go on for a loooong time, but I'm starting to ramble and get off topic...

Interesting discussion, thanks Roman...

Roman responds: Great post. The reason pot isn't legal is because powerful lobbyists aren't trying to make it legal by buying lawmakers. That's all. Cigarettes are 1,0000 times more dangerous, even says so on the packs, but they're legal. Why? Duh. The tobacco lobby. Same with alcohol. It's just that rich white guys don't control pot, so it's a sinful, evil crime.

Roman you're right about my knowledge of the UFC and if my analogy was incorrect or offended you I appologize. I will admit I used to be a fan of boxing until the likes of Mike Tyson arrived and he was allowed to return to the ring and I have participated in martial arts with my sons who at one time acheived gold medals in national competition in Minnesota but as I've gotten older my appetite for any type of fighting is reserved for Jackie Chan movies where everything is choreographed. maybe my perception of UFC would be different if it wasn't hyped in the manner that it is and I may even watch the next televised match. I still do enjoy watching a well run martial arts competition where the object is to score points and not just kick some one silly.

Part of me hopes he doesn't play (not because he's probably guilty), but for the pandemonium that will follow him. Can you imagine him on the road in Philly or NY? Forget about somebody piping in "Who let the dogs out"...this guy is going to need some serious security around him if he gets on the field this year.

Samantha, I also have to turn my head when limbs get snapped or bent, but apparently many people watch it over and over again. If not, why does the media keep feeding or trying to feed us such violent images?... If people want more insight on what kind of a guy Vick is, google and read about the Ron Mexico incident and how it then became glorified to legendary heights by the mysognistic, "b's and ho's" portion of the hip-hop nation... We as sports fans have to stop referring to guys like Vick as superstars. I equate superstars with winning and making their teamates better by driving them and maximizing their skills even if that means sacrificing personal stats. If MJ had had this selfish, me first mentality, he could have averaged 50 pts a night and probably have never won a single title.

Roman responds: Great post. The reason pot isn't legal is because powerful lobbyists aren't trying to make it legal by buying lawmakers. That's all. Cigarettes are 1,0000 times more dangerous, even says so on the packs, but they're legal. Why? Duh. The tobacco lobby. Same with alcohol. It's just that rich white guys don't control pot, so it's a sinful, evil crime.

And....you cant grow asprin in your backyard!!!!

Unfortunately this kind of behavior out of today's NFL player is not surprising. The NFL is a thug league, no way to get around that. Remember how Clinton Portis and another Redskins player thought dogfighting was funny. That's why I am only a casual NFL fan. Also, Vick is not a superstar. The media blows him up as a superstar, but he is just a mediocre QB.

I agree with you Roman, and would add to the tobacco industry lobby the cotton and paper industries. Hemp is a way more resourceful and useful product than those two. So pot/hemp has a lot of things working against it, like you mention. Not to mention the complete misunderstanding of it by many people...the likes of who think that it's more dangerous than alcohol. But again, that's another topic...

Vick *is* the face of the league's lawless image, if only because he is the face of the league in general. Even if he is not convicted (which I believe he will be), he has certainly sullied his reputation, at least for the rest of his playing career. Even if he is not convicted, even if he skirts jail time, avoids suspension and never misses a snap, he will have to live with oppressive guilt for the rest of his life stemming from the fact that he was responsible from taking away the most precious commodity of any living creature -- life -- apparently on multiple occassions.

The more interesting question is this: If he is convicted, suspended and serves prison time, will the Falcons keep him? If not, would any other NFL team be willing to give him a second chance when he's 30 years old and out of the game for two years?

fuff, NFL players make millions to play football and if they get old or hurt they retire. I feel so sorry for these dogs. Throw Vick in a cage with these dogs and let the dogs have some fun.

I wholeheartedly disagree with any parallels made between dogfighting and the UFC, NFL, or any other violent sport. Human athletes do have a choice whether or not to participate, dogs do not. Human athletes get paid for their services, helpless dogs brutally fight each other for the enjoyment and monetary benefit of some pretty sick humans. If a human athlete is not victorious, he goes back and practices his skills and hopefully next time does better. If a dog is not victorious, he loses his life. If an Ultimate Fighter is too hurt to continue, he stops fighting, right? He doesn't then go out back and get shot to death by his owner.

And bculz, you aren't the only one who gets queasy at the sight of Theismann's busted leg, etc. Remember Jason Kendall's ankle, or Robin Ventura's dangling foot? My husband can't watch either. Such girls!

I agree with many of these posts - we should hold off judgement until all the facts are disclosed. However, all to many times allegations such as these against NFL players prove to be true

If he is guilty he has just flushed a $130 million dollar contract, millions more in endorsements, and the respect of most NFL fans down the toilet. What a stupid think to do? With all that money an admiration why doesn't he just kick back by the pool smoking a stogey and ponder what a lucky sob he is.

I am an animial lover and think that anyone who gains pleasure from their pain has to pay the price. How would you feel Romo if it was your dog (old family pet....) in there fighting for his life, while these clowns stood around cheering for his blood?

Roman responds: Save the lecture, my friend, I've been a vegan for 3 years and don't wear animal products. You? All I said is child abuse is worse. A dog doesn't need us to survive. A child does.

Great point about a dog not needing us. Makes it even sadder, that its not need based dogs these deviants take advantage of, but a dogs blind and unwavering loyalty they abuse.

Any psycologist will tell you that abusing animals is simple slide to abusing people. Also, these dog fight rings are loaded with REAL HARDCORE criminals, i mean...if Crime is how you blow off steam...what the heck is your day job?? other than NFL QB

At least Nike is taking a wait and see approach!!!???

Superstar???? He has the lowest career pass completion percentage of active QB's at 53%. Worse than Eli Manning at 54%

Roman responds: Superstar as defined by talent, prestige and celebrity.

I will say this, two of my favorite commercials of all time. The one where he is the Amuzment ride/virtual reality game and the one with him and TO. Man, too bad....he was set up to have it all!

I honestly don't know what to say. As a black man and a football fan I am just mortified and ashamed. Not just for Vick, but for the "men" which is a generous use of the word involved in this. I don't even have the heart to say "wait and see". He in my mind gets the same treatment that spouse's get when their "other half" winds up dead/missing under mysterious circumstances.

He has to "PROVE" two things.
1st he must prove he didn't do those things.
2nd he must prove he didn't know about it.

Anything else as far as I am concerned(a plea bargain to rat out someone else, cop to a lesser penalty, pleading the 5th, etc) is in my mind proof of his guilt.

Make me believe you Vick, otherwise I will be applauding them taking your sadistic @$$ to prison in handcuffs. Where you will be promplty tied to the prison's version of a "rape stand".

oh BTW, in response to getting queasy over real life hits and such.....

I know it's in poor taste and completely crass, but I remember getting a chuckle with the Suntimes picture of Wendell Davis stretched out and blowing both his ACL's on that one play. In fact, me and one friend still laugh about it to this day. Not so much the fact that he hurt himself, but the picture on the back page was just a side splitter!

Am I the only one who laughed?

Roman responds: Are you being serious? If so, I'm about to ban you from this blog. What was funny about it?

A vegan too! But I have a brown leather coat that I can't let go. Guess your a better man than I

My point was not to question you, but to personalize the story. ie - if its not your dog, then why should I care! I disagree though, without me my 3 month Golden Retriever is a gonner.

But will they repeat over and over again and start a blog about charitable figures? Glossed over. Did any paper in recent memory do any start-your-news day article about a human interest story where a sports figure did anything great and they kept talking about it every day for a week. No. Too boring. Name the charity that you remember that the sports figure was contributing to? You can't because it didn't matter. Everone knows that people want to see the worst come out of other human being. Especially, celebrity. When Paris was in jail does any remember anything good coming from anyone else in the news? You can't. It didn't matter. What I'm saying is that it matters so much because it's happening NOW. Vick being indicted is today. T.O. spitting in another guys face and his supposed suicide attempt is so yesterday. Pac man Jones was the face a couple a months ago and Tank along side of him until this came along. Just like the acronym for the NFL is called on ocassion: Not for long. Unless they take every bit of money away from these guys with a limited education and a very limited grasp of "regular" society someone is bound to do something down the line to supplant Vick as that face. Just players being held up on a pedestal and everyone in their inner sanctum allowing them to do whatever they want, it's just a matter of time before someone does something much worse.

Dogs didn't used to need us to survive, but now they do. Wild dogs lived for thousands of years without our assistance, but when we domesticated them, they became dependent on us. We made them that way. But dogs definitely do need us.

I wonder if (imagine that) Tank is into dog fighting with what we know about his dogs and guns???? If you want to see a cool movie that portrays, WITHOUT glorifying dog fighting, checkout the classic Mexican movie "Amores Perros"(love dogs). I think it was made by the same guy who did "Traffic" and "Babel". It is sort of like the Mexican "Pulp Fiction". I highly recomend it. It makes some interesting social commentary about how we humans treat dogs vs how we treat other people.

Roman responds: It's a really good movie, but dog-lovers beware, there are some disturbing scenes. And PETA was upset because Mexico doesn't have the same standards we do as far as treating animals in movies. For instance, something about how they sedate dogs for certain scenes.

After thinking about this more and more and really feeling sick about dogfighting and shaking my head about what could possibly drive a person to do such sick s+*t, I think that if Vick is found guilty, after he serves his deserved jail time, the judge should assign him to about 5000 hours of community service cleaning up kennals at a humane society animal shelter.

Roman responds: Superstar as defined by talent, prestige and celebrity

You forgot over-hyped which would make it:

1% talent
1% prestige (not even sure how that applies to Vick)
48% celebrity (based on being on a Madden cover I think)
50% over-hyped

He was the most over-rated played in the league. Now he's just an alleged felon. How the mediocre have fallen!

"Mike is on his way to jail...and while he's in his cell..I have a 140 pound British Staff who needs a beeatch....The thought of Brutus Maximus pulling Vick out of his bunk brings a smile.."

You sound a bit flustered my friend. Might I suggest a cat scan?
If animal torture is bad then prison rape is worse.

Animal rights is a fickle issue. We can't treat all animals like people; that would eliminated 95% of world industry, leaving us all naked in the wilderness. This is the US however. He'll be convicted but he'll probably get community service and probation.

"Superstar???? He has the lowest career pass completion percentage of active QB's at 53%. Worse than Eli Manning at 54%"

His QB running game is awesome. This makes him a once-in-a-lifetime player. No NFL team will ever again pay a QB to run like he does.

Roman responds: Superstar as defined by talent, prestige and celebrity

pretty sure that will be the last time we associate Vick and the word "prestige".

this guy has been a media creation since Va Tech. basically Bobby Douglas who can run a 4.3 40.
I will miss the mike vick lectures to the media after he throws 2 tds and for 250 yards. then backs it up the next week with 3 picks. i learned all i need to know about vick the football player when he gave up against the bears a few years ago.

Roman responds: All good points. Prestige was the wrong word.

Vick is despicable. I can hardly waste the tensile strength to type about him. I fantasize about what famed animal lover Tony Soprano would do to him. He was very upset about the Cosette incident.

Thanks for defending MMA Roman you said it all.

Regarding the Pot; if you come to Cali I think you can get medical marijuana cards for any stress or anxiety the Michael Vick story caused you. Then you can grow, buy, and consume it legally. And its Vegan too! (butter is used in some of the baked goods, I am only veggie tho.)

A blog titled "How Bad are the Sox" RM? Is that a test, or a joke set up for the Northsiders? ;) Hope your summers going well dude. Aloha

Roman responds: Welcome back. I was going to put out a missing persons report on you. Were you with sis up north?
As far as the Sox, "Put the nuns in charge."
And as far as the other stuff, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I really don't know why anyone considered him to be the face of the NFL in the first place. In my opinion he has gone from the most overrated player in league history to the most pathetic.
The things that he is being accused of doing are sick, perverted and cowardly and he just might get a taste of that cruelty in prison himself.
One can only hope so.

We just celebrated the 17,000 year anniversary when man and dog first teamed up together. Check it out. Pretty cool to think about that without dogs, WE might not have made it out of the bush!

Also just read he was the 2nd highest player in the NFL...think about that. Turn back the clock 6 months before this and ask where would you slot this guy among the NFL QBs...certainly not top 10. What were the Falcons thinking!!!???

Roman responds: Either you were missing the word "paid" after highest, or you're talking about his water bottle.

LOL...water bottle!!

what ever happened to that?? Can you believe the nerve of trying to "allegedly" bring a Water BONG on a plane??? What is wrong with that dude?? Man someone is not living in reality...thats all this is.

I just heard a senator call for Vick to get electrocuted. A democratic senator at that. Byrd-D

well done Romo...Freudian slip I guess!

Ricky WIlliams is the 1st.

Julie, your the most level headed person in here, but comparing Ricky Williams to Vick is like comparing a kid who got caught smoking ciggies in the boysroom to columbine!

Roman as I said, the picture on the back page was hilarious. I can't really explain what was "funny" about it. It was probably a combination of the picture, the headline and various other things. I do remember laughing about it and as I said in the earlier post, me and a friend still laugh about it.

Not really sure if the Ban was serious or just a "wow you should totally be banned" kinda shocked outrage. The kinda of thing when you hear about how your friend has treated his girlfriend and you say "man I should kick your @$$ for that" thing. Ban me if you must, however I would like to just say two things.....

One. I am being honest and sharing something that I knew would be criticized. Maybe it's true what is said "People don't want truth, they want acceptable truth".

Two. If I am the only person on this blog that has ever laughed at something considered to be at the very least inappropriate(and admitted it), then I would welcome the ban. Cuz that would mean a whole lotta "hypo's" on this blog.

I don't think there are alot of hypos here.

Roman responds: It just came across as you laughing at a guy who suffered one of the ugliest injuries I've ever seen. I know you said that wasn't your intent. I can't imagine how the picture was funny. Let's move on.

OK, did all my reading, researching and blah blah blah...Mike Vick doesn't take a snap in a regular season game this season....So, Mitt Romney and Mike Vick walk into a bar.....

Level headed? Yes, that describes me to a tee. You're blog kissing up now aren't you, Culz? That's the 2nd highest compliment you can give a woman. I often wonder what you guys think about me infiltrating your little boys club here. Sorry, I suppose I shouldn't say little. And how'd you know what I did in high school? Wasn't ciggies, though.

Just curious but I can't help but wonder, how soon after the tv cameras set up will the Right Rev.JJack proclaim Mike Vick a victim of the rampant racism afflicting America today? After all, he has helped lay the groundwork for the perception that Barry Bonds is a hapless victim while Henry Aaron has morphed into a toadie for baseball's white ruling elite.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I find it hard to believe that, even if Vick is found guilty after due process & is forced to don the striped negligee, that he'll be serving time at Folsom, Leavenworth, or any of those other institutions, as would you or I if we were so convicted. The same rules just don't seem to apply to our celebrity superstars.

OK last night I got real pannicky about my leveling Vick guilty before he has his day in court. So, I am taking a step back.

Also, nice call on this not being a big story...whoever said that!

I just hope this doesnt turn into an OJ thing.

MV owned the property and visited it frequently. Friends and family lived there. Even IF Vick's high priced lawyers manage to create a bit of doubt in a jury, he is still a major creep.

I doubt he plays another game of football.

He will leave behind the legacy of a selfish, stupid, wildly overpaid and over-hyped quarterback who never obtained mediocrity on the field.

Roman....that is so cool that you don't eat meat and try not to use leather products. Good to know I'm not alone in my principles. It's even a bit of a conflict for me regarding the heavy usage of animal products for baseball and football games, but I was a fan of both for a long time before becoming animal-conscious and just can't give the sports up. Some folks can be ignorant about certain breeds of dogs, saying pit bulls and/or rottweilers are just "bad" dogs. But to them I say there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. The dogs aren't born that way, they're trained. My little cairn terrier is a fine companion and it's a known fact that just petting a dog can immediately lower one's blood pressure. Dogs are people, too!

4 less days and 6 less entries than the Joe Smith blog. Unless someone says something inflammatory and set people off this is not a big story in Chicago. I doubt we have repeat entries because like I said we are on the outside looking in. Who's gonna beat a dead horse(pun unintended). Everone will weigh in and go about their lives until the next story and the next blog. I bet this doesn't go over 95 entries. No BIG story in Chicago.

I wonder when we will start protesting against ourselves for eating plants?

Looks like Michael Vick is going down...the question is how far? Nike has cast its vote as has animal rights activists. Deo gratias.
Stay tuned. It's safe to say the Falcons will not be going to Super Bowl XLII. Amen

IMO the story yet to come is how many additional NFL players and rich famous folk in other high profile occupations will also eventually be named by the Feds as dog fighters. (A previous commenter here has already guessed at one of them and I think there will be many.) The more the merrier I say. Let's get it all out there. Maybe in the long run this sorry episode headlining Vick will serve two excellent ends: 1., helping expose and then cleaning up the thug culture of the NFL, and 2, putting a stake in the heart of dogfighting in America forever.

Only in America can they put you away for fighting dogs. I understand the outrage of folks about dogs being forced to do horrible things, and being tortured, and raped and bred to have psychological scars indefinitely. My fault, that was "HUMANS" that all of that stuff was forced on. Um sorry, I forgot people are no longer concerned about that stuff. They care about DOG rights now. So, things that people do to DOGS is hated and abhorred instead of what happens to HUMANS? Ohhhh Ok now I understand. What was I thinking? Vic used to be considered only subhuman, and now he is sub-animal.

I have a wonderful idea, since this is the year that Affirmative Action was abolished, all of the Dogs (and their supporters) should march on Washington (a million dog march) and sing "Dogs shall overcome" at the Washington Monument? That should be enough to get Micheal Vick the electric chair.

Roman responds: Keith, what does one have to do with the other? Seriously. Although on second thought, forget it. You marginalize torturing animals because of the inequities, cruelties and injustice that have happened to people. Why can't people be outraged about both, and please don't tell me people aren't outraged about both.

O.K. I spent a lot of time defending Tank, so it's obvious that I prefer to forgive rather than condemn, but if these charges are true then Michael Vick is a cowardly sadistic scumbag.

If there was true justice in the world, Vick's punishment would be to have a group of the dogs he tortured brought into his cell, where they could get the revenge that they so richly deserve on this pathetic excuse for a human being.

I can understand when people commit crimes under duress, but this guy is a millionaire who can do anything he wants with his time. Instead of doing less sinful things like participating in orgies, snorting pure cocaine, or sipping margaritas in a tropical paradise, this jerk decides to spend his free time inflicting pain on helpless animals.

Once again, this is all assuming he's guilty. Of course, I wouldn't really want dogs to eat him if he is... that would be unfair to the dogs.

If Ray Lewis and O.J. Simpson can get away with murder, what's killing a few dogs gonna get Vick? Remember folks, athlete's are above the law and money buys everything.

Roman responds: Lewis didn't kill anyone.

Roman you are right as usual. Both are horrible and folks should be equally abhorred. THAT IS MY POINT - AND THE COMMONALITY OF BOTH SUBJECTS. People are just down right disgusted at things that happen to some animals, yet the same audience seems to get eerily silent about HUMAN attrocities.

Roman you are more than fair, and your disgust is equal on all issues. It is not to marginalize what happened to animals, but to put it in its proper light. When folks have callous responses to issues that are of great importance to us, we feel even worse than those dogs.

Yo, Keith, a million dog march on Washington sounds like a great idea. Think of it as adding to all the other crap going on there. A million people with pooper-scoopers. It boggles the mind.

Greg is right. It IS going to be difficult to convict Vick. In fact I really don't see how they are going to prove their case.

OJ IS innocent because he was proven innocent in a court of LAW. I hate it when folks don't respect the LAW except when its convenient, but turn around and want you to respect ALL the laws of the land. These are the same folks that will read out the company bi-laws to you and micro-manage you. Watching every second of your lunch break and making sure you return from the bathroom on time. OJ's money got him off, which poor people have been screaming for the longest time. So when OJ gets off, NOOOOOW the system is flawed. Its only flawed, cause OJ got off. And its really going to get flawed if Vick gets off.

Roman responds: O.J. wasn't proven innocent. O.J. was found not guilty. Big difference. Huge difference. Means the prosecution didn't prove its case, and it didn't. And that's what the jurors said, too.

That's the thing Keith. I'm sure you didn't intend to sound cavalier, but your comments on this subject come across that way. The subject of dogfighting is just coming to light now, and a lot of people (not just me) did not realize the extent of how horrible it is. Before Vick's indictment, if you mentioned dogfighting to me, I'd say, "oh, that's terrible," but I wouldn't have imagined anything like the details of Vick's case. It's fresh on everyone's minds now, and it's the horrific details that cause us to react right now. The human atrocities you speak of are in the news every single day. Of course, the value of a human life is immeasurable, but I think we do get immune to it after awhile. I'm not minimizing the loss of human life here, and when I read about specific families that have been affected by the war, I cry. I'm just saying when I hear about another car bombing in Baghdad, I don't pause and think about the humans that lost their life in the attack every single time. It's unfortunately too common.

Ray Lewis was charged with murder along with 2 buddies of his. The charges were later dropped, and he copped a plea of obstruction. His buddies were found not guilty.
Prior to a civil suit trial from the family of one of one of the victims, he quietly settled on payment to the victim's family - estimates vary but likely in excess of $1M.

...like the line from the movie "Stripes" - "convicted? no, never convicted".

Roman responds: Yeah, I remember the incident well. He didn't kill anyone.
"No, but we're willing to learn."

Keith, do you sip on granpa's little brown bottle at night?

Cause, your rant takes on a whole new level after sun down.

The only place for Mr Vick if he isn´t kicked out of the league is with The Raiders! Or perhaps he could "bulk up" and pursue a wrestling career!

Julie's post made my day. Thank you. Culzie you are right. Gotta stay off at night!

Roman sez: "Lewis didn't kill anyone."

Well ... our personal views not withstanding, according to a jury of his peers, neither did OJ. (a civil suit does not establish guilt; only the assumption and assignment of responsibility)

Nevertheless, I'll reserve the right to have my own opinion on the matter, irregardless of the verdict.

Roman responds: Ok, but nobody believes Lewis killed anybody. It was obstruction of justice.

Step 1--Michael Vick was told by the commisioner not to report to training camp.(Refer to earlier post that Michael Vick is going down)
Step 2--watch the news on Thursday...
Step 3--The Falcons will need to find another quarterback for autumn.
Step 4--No Felon League (NFL) wins again--there are serious consequences for ones repugnant and illegal behavior.
Step 5--Stay tuned...

The difference between Vick, OJ and Lewis is, people can sometimes deserve what they got coming, dogs dont!

Yes, alot of athletes do charity work. Most do nothing. But alot more athletes carry guns, get into trouble, do drugs, drive drunk, shoot at people, get into fights, and generally act like 14 year olds. They demand special treatment and throw temper tantrums if they dont get what they want.

Understand that some athletes do charity work does nothing to dilute the trend of gangsterism and criminalism in athletics. Although it might be tempting to look at this as a race issue (look at who is getting into trouble--and keep in mind that violent crimes are overwhelming perpetrated by African Americans) but the real issue is a cultural one. The color of someone's skin has nothing to do with why they are committing crimes. It is their culture/subculture/environment that is producing people more likely to hit than reason, more likely to take than ask, and who are devoid of empathy, because they are raging egomaniacs.

If the NFL was serious, they'd have a true zero tolerance policy.

Keep in the mind the type of elite athlete who plays in the NFL--chances are, most of them have been treated like princes since junior high--special treatment, overlooking bad behavior (or even supporting it). Alot of these guys do not grow up with a support system to teach them right from wrong. Or they think its just lip service, not serious, or not applicable to them.

I will not support teams or players who look the other way. Why do you think the middle class has abandoned basketball? Football will go the same way, because we dont like people who think special rules apply to them. We do not like bullies, or twisted SOB's who cannot see a difference between horseracing and dog fighting/the things Vick is accused of. Horse racing definitely exploits animals, but what Vick is accused of is orders of magnitude more horrifying. It is sub-human behavior.

The reality is, some (not all) but some, of the best athletes come out of some pretty hardened areas. You can take these kids out of these tuff spots, but they can't always severe those ties with those friends and peers that they grew up with. Some of those friends may have even been the reason these dudes went on to be so great, whatever, but at some point, when your boys become liabilities and not inspirations, you got to CUT DEM LOOSE!

Emmitt Smith said some dumb stuff today, but he also said something about Vick not cutting his ties to some "bad elements of his childhood"

its like my dad always said...

You hang out with S**T you get S**T on you!

Maybe Mr. Vick should donate a years salary to Humane Animal Shelters who investigate dog fight allegations. This is a man who many teens look up to, as well as fans. If convicted, he deserves the same punishment he gave to defenseless animals!

Roman sez: "Ok, but nobody believes Lewis killed anybody. It was obstruction of justice."

Sorry to say, but I've always had my doubts as to the extent of his involvement. Funny that no one has ever been convicted of the murder that Lewis was an eye witness to.

Roman responds: The problem seems to be that some people view cooperating with the police as a sign of cavorting with the enemy.

Neither Ray Lewis or OJ were indicted by the Feds though?

Vick should just beg for the publics forgiveness. I think if he fights this it will just deepen the divide between him and the fans. I know his lawyers are saying dont talk no matter what. But its only play.

He should just just pull a Dion Sanders be born again. Wouldnt that fix it?

Also, another of NFL's greatest mysterys even better and more dumbfounding that it was just swept under the carpet is the whole

MICHAEL IRVIN COUSINS CRACK PIPE IN HIS DASHBOARD INCIDENT???

What??

Did that happen or did I dream that?

Still on TV? ...Of course!

What??

Your Cousins Crack Pipe? Dan Patrick interviews, and just says, OK. I believe you Mike, its not like you got bus....ted....before?! Ooops, ok, well, its not like crack is addic.....tive....>?!

Ok, no....hes a likeable guy and funny and...well...crack...is a victemless crime...so....its ok?

What?

Roman sez: "The problem seems to be that some people view cooperating with the police as a sign of cavorting with the enemy."

As far as I'm concerned, the problem seems to be that he never cooperated with the police at all.

A man lost his life for no good reason, and whether Lewis was an innocent bystander or was directly involved, his failure to assist in the investigation of a capitol felony should have been reason enough for banishment from the league.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if Goodell were commissioner at the time, Lewis would now be plying his trade in Canada.

New face of lawlessness? I'm sick of you and others in the media sensationalizing the small criminal element in the NFL, and frankly, all of this smacks of back-door racism.

People like Mike North complained that they didn't want the achievement of Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy "thrown in his face," yet will run with every crime involving an African American athlete. You aren't North, but by continuing to dwell on the small number of incidents involving black athletes while not giving the same amount of attention to work of Lovie Smith, Warrick Dunn, Rube Brown, Tommie Harris and the vast majority of black athletes who actually give back to their communities.

And this isn't counting the plethora of individuals who just don't do anything wrong like Peanut Tillman, Nathan Vasher or Adrian Peterson.

By contining to drub this story, you are perpetuating the stereotype that most black men are hoods. I simple review of ALL the players in the league would clearly show this is not the case. Fact is, the same 15-20 names keep popping up as part of the "epidemic," and in most cases, these individuals were problems as far back as their high school days.

The only reason the NFL has a "lawless" image is because you and your colleagues have glorified the problem beyond reality. But considering you are part of a media establishment that has degraded black and brown realities for decades, it would be foolish to think that you would be any different.

How about, for once, you tell the full story of black athletes in the NFL, and give this story the same attention you give to the handful of Tank's, Pacman's and Vick's of the league. How about you create blogs detailing their achievements?

Or would that just be ramming too much reality down your throat. And please spare me the defense of two or three stories per year you and others do on the positives. Let's be real.

Roman responds: Ok, let's be real. Brian Urlacher has been absolutely hammered for his text messages and other problems with the mother of his son. Greg Olsen was hammered as well for the vulgar rap song. And nobody has been picked apart more than Rex Grossman, and not just for his play. But for his attitude, etc. So give me a break, if a white player did this, we'd be all over him, too.

From Keith:

"...since this is the year that Affirmative Action was abolished..."

The Supreme court's decision did not abolish Affimative Action. Their vote was specially designed to strike down voluntary integration laws in just two states. It was just a political stunt designed to look like an end to Affirmative Action. Not even the justices who voted to strike the laws down really took it seriously. It has been demonstrated in the years following Brown vs. Board that if a state wants to get around federal Affirmative Action laws, they will find a way to do that.

With all of the uproar over these dogfighting allegations, I think that Vick will be replaced after this season. There's going to be a lot of booing in the stands.

Please, someone else comment on my Michael Irvin post....I think i was dreaming. I really do.

People ask if Michael Vick should have known what was going on with the people he had in his house and the answer is Yes and if he is found guilty he should not ever play the sport again but there is a double standard. "The Great One" Wayne Gretzky should have known what his wife was doing in the same house but some how he didnt. She was gambling high stakes on sports but for some reason I havent heard anything about that. Thats a federal offense. Why havent the feds looked into that? Why has "The Great One" got a free pass? He had to be involved in what his wife was doing. There was no protesting nothing not even a mention on the news. Must be good to be the Great One...

G-Reg hammered? The Sun-Times is the only outfit that gave it full billing, and that lasted all of two days. Anyone on vacation would have missed the story.

The Sun-Times is also nearly alone in going after Urlacher, and again, the story was dead within a week. I haven't seen folow-up after follow-up on that matter (not that I think there should be follow-ups). He's posing on the cover of ChicagoBears.com I type.

Grossman? That's comparing apples and oranges. Grossman's poor play hasn't indicted by-association every 6'1 upper-middle class QB.

But this "lawlessness" argument has indeed been coded, intentionally or unintentionally, as an indictment of the black athlete and, by extention, African Amercan men. You need only look at some of the comments on this and other blogs to see that.

Yet when you compare the number of "lawless" individuals per capita with the incarceration rate of blacks on a whole, the NFL looks like a beacon of respectability. The vast majority of black athletes -- including those from inner-city or improverished backgrounds -- have been stellar citizens. In fact, this is also true in the NBA.

I'm not condoning the likes of Pacman or the Vick brothers. What they have done is abominable. But I am condemning that you and others, by continuing follow-up after follow-up on these few stories, are creating the impression that "lawlessness" reigns in the NFL, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Make no mistake. This issue, just like the "lawless" issue in the NBA, is wrapped up in race. Barack Obama and Oprah haven't killed racism in this state or the nation.

And by emphasizing everything wrong with a few black athletes while ignoring the greatness of many others, you are intentionally or unintentionally perpetuating the still-alive stereotype of the savage black brute. I am only asking for some balance regarding this issue as we go foward.

Neither the NFL nor black athlete by extention is "lawless" on a whole. Yet these stories and the lack of positive stories distorts this reality.

Roman responds: The Bengals, Pacman, Tank and now Vick. How many incidents does it take to establish a lawless image for a league?

Michael Vick, Pac Man Jones, Greg Olsen, Barrett Robins, Ron Artest, Barry Bonds, Tank Johnson, Albert Haynesworth.

Exactly why do we build multi-million dollar, taxpayer funded "shrines" to these buffoons?

Used to be that we built magnificent buildings to house art and artifacts, symphonies, theaters, etc. In the early 1900s, athletes, particularly baseball players, were seen as nothing more than criminals.

Seems like it only took us 100 years to be reminded of that.

LDC - the NFL has an image problem based on the arrest records over the past few years. The fact that the overwhelming majority of these incidents involve black players, how is that the media's fault?

Which police incidents involving white players are they ignoring? Explain to us the "reality" that the media seems to be missing on covering these incidents for the past 2 years.

Sun Su says
"you are only as stong as your weakest link"

Martin Luther King said...
"We are only as good as our worst example."

Did anyone else see a soldiers story, remember what that Drill Sergeant told the one big lummocks of a soldier before he took him out? It was sad as hell and wrong and totally mad me ill, but there was a reason he said and it made it into that movie.

I said it before and Ill say it again...

You Play with cra*p, you hang our with cr*p, you make your business cr*p...guess what?.... Your gonna get cr*p on you!

This isnt a black or white thing, its a cr*p thing. And its actually dumb ignorant posters who try to say that its the white media perpetuatiing the black criminal stereo type and not the black criminal doing the crime, then it is YOU SIR who keeps the veil of ignorance pulled over your own head and keeps your own people shrouded in a cloud of backwards thinking.

Try not defending crimnals and looking for excuses to blame their poor behavior on, and then villifying the media for reporting the news. Thats their job.

If this was a hollywood blog, we would all be ganging up on Lindsay Lohan. Who, for the record, should go to jail too...white or black.

What?

Keylan sez: "With all of the uproar over these dogfighting allegations, I think that Vick will be replaced after this season. There's going to be a lot of booing in the stands."

Vick will not play a single down for the Falcons, or any other NFL team this season.

Book it.

Urlacher and Brady have baby's momma's?

I don´t really have a point, just a lot of food for thought on this issue. I acknowledge that racism exists in our society and that at times the media goes overboard with its reporting of negative news which in turn helps promote racist stereotypes. But, I think that the case of Vick is different. It is getting so much play and digging up so much emotion because of the horrific nature of the allegations. If it had been, say Eli Manning, another overhyped, overpayed QB who happens to be white, would the public outcry be any different?.. I think that the media creates images of heroes and villians and these images often play to racist sterotypes. The media jumps on the villians when they have a chance and they often give the heroes an easier time. For example, the Urlacher thing , MJ and gambling or I recall Jerry Rice being caught in a massage parlor sting in SF some years back and the media burying the story. They also protect their own (Mike Irvin, Harold Renolds, the Fox NFL guy who got busted with coke last week) etc. The goal of the media is to sell papers and gain ratings and thus they never seem to be too hard on the people who are perceived as public heroes and they go all out to attack the villians. People like Bonds, Rodman and Vick (if he plays) again are big ratings draws because people love to hate them and when they give the public more of a reason to hate them, the media jumps on this and runs with it. Sadly this often has racial overtones. White people are the majority of the ticket buying fans and the media is run by mostly white guys. Many of the sports villian (for on and off the field activities) are black and it is the job of the media to fire up the fans into loving to root against these guys.... Rodman´s and Irvin´s sexploits led to many people calling them racist words as well as dirty dogs, but when our heroes Magic Johnson and to a certain extent Wilt Chamberlins sexploits made the news, the media and the public didn´t seem to bat an eyelash. Finally, compare and contrast the media treatment and the public´s reaction to Walter Payton and Scottie Pippin´s (heroes)treatment for gun incidents with those of people like Tank Johnson and Stephen Jackson. Yes for every Ray Lewis or Ray Carruth, there are many regular guys or real good guys like Tommie Harris, Warrick Dunn, or Chris Zorich, but in our backassward society, their stories don´t sell papers.

Fuff, you get my award for level headed thinker this week. JB will mail it to you....since she totally blew it this week.

My only question is ...on a whole...not just a few diseased individuals....but as a whole....what is wrong with our society?

I think it works pretty good...actually

if you knew history, and studied other examples of attempts at society, i think you would agree, that in no time in the recorded history of mankind, have we ever had such individual freedoms, access to truthful information, ease of movement, medical advances, 24/7 unlimited entertainment brought to your finger tips....democracy....free markets???

what is wrong with us exactly? and what would you have us do to fix it??

If you think our society is backwards....
Just be glad you dont live in ancient egypt!! or mid-evil europe!!

If you think our society is backwards....
Just be glad you dont live in ancient egypt!! or mid-evil europe or modern day France!!

Fuff...I think u nailed it.

You can also look at espn who does its best to fan the flames of racism (or possibility of racism) whenever possible. Any story with suggestions of race (Sheffield, Bonds, Vick, Duke Lacrosse, etc) is generally first 5 minutes material.
Let's face it...it draws people to the TV regardless of it's legitimacy.

If i remember correctly, the Duke lacross guys got grilled for weeks and weeks and weeks, and everyone (in the media save Andrew Napolitano) was crucifying them. They fired the coach, they cancelled the season. Those famed 88 professors wrote a nasty letter of indictment, and the prosecutor even had it out for them.

It wasnt until the strippers story fell apart that they were exonerated.

Now, if you ask me my personal opinion, I think they were still total Dbags and i heard about some of the PRE PARTY emails they were sending out and stuff...They were some real freakin frat boy scum bag type emails. I bet in reality, something pretty nasty went down there, but....in the eyes of the law they were vindicated. The media however had them hung at day one.

Also, the media really let Kobe off the hook too. I read the police report on that one. Dude did some dark dark dark stuff to that girl. Sure, she may have been more willing, or not able to fight, but as a man, i was appauled to read those accusations.

Im sure they are on smoking gun somewhere....go read um.

I think the media jumps all over the hot story to do one thing...

GET MORE VIEWERS AND MORE READERS...

I dont think there is a bias against blacks or whites in the media, just a biased against getting all the facts until they break the story.

Look at the reporting on the war....where was the big story about Iraq putting down there differences to play soccer and they just had a huge win against Korea in the ASIA CUP to go to the finals, and what gets reported.....another suicide bomber!

F that, they should call those punks what they are....HOMICIDE BOMBERS!!!! NOT SUICIDE!

I only wish i could be sitting at the gates of hell to watch those mother fers faces when they dont see 99 virgins, but instead see eternal flames!

oh well... where was i?

If i remember correctly, the Duke lacross guys got grilled for weeks and weeks and weeks, and everyone (in the media save Andrew Napolitano) was crucifying them. They fired the coach, they cancelled the season. Those famed 88 professors wrote a nasty letter of indictment, and the prosecutor even had it out for them.

It wasnt until the strippers story fell apart that they were exonerated.

Now, if you ask me my personal opinion, I think they were still total Dbags and i heard about some of the PRE PARTY emails they were sending out and stuff...They were some real freakin frat boy scum bag type emails. I bet in reality, something pretty nasty went down there, but....in the eyes of the law they were vindicated. The media however had them hung at day one.

Also, the media really let Kobe off the hook too. I read the police report on that one. Dude did some dark dark dark stuff to that girl. Sure, she may have been more willing, or not able to fight, but as a man, i was appauled to read those accusations.

Im sure they are on smoking gun somewhere....go read um.

I think the media jumps all over the hot story to do one thing...

GET MORE VIEWERS AND MORE READERS...

I dont think there is a bias against blacks or whites in the media, just a biased against getting all the facts until they break the story.

Look at the reporting on the war....where was the big story about Iraq putting down there differences to play soccer and they just had a huge win against Korea in the ASIA CUP to go to the finals, and what gets reported.....another suicide bomber!

they should call those punks what they are....HOMICIDE BOMBERS!!!! NOT SUICIDE!

I only wish i could be sitting at the gates of hell to watch their faces when they dont see 99 virgins, but instead see eternal flames!

oh well... where was i?

I think that we have the greatest society ever and that our individual freedoms are a blessing that we all too often take for granted. I guess I may have misconstrued(sp?) my words. For me, it just comes back to that old human nature thing. I am a teacher and I try to teach my students and set an example of patience, TOLERANCE and the importance of trying to understand where others are coming from. But at times it pains me to see that we live in a world and a society where some people are haters! I am a Jew who is married to a Mexican woman and I teach mainly hispanic and black kids. For the most part I feel "color blind" in my daily life until something external (a hater, the media,etc) reminds me that unfortunately many people spend their lives judging books by their covers. Sadly numerous non-sports fans have come up to me this week and asked me if heard about what that black QB did to those poor dogs. How many more times is the next white, first- round NBA pick who is over 6´8 going to be compared to Larry Bird by half of the media bozos even if their games entirely different? Again, I didn´t mean to attack our society.I feel lucky to have the opportunity to live in a time and in a society where I can have a life that is influenced by and awash in a mix of cultures. I just wish that more people felt the same, instead of always talking about US and THEM.

I think that we have the greatest society ever and that our individual freedoms are a blessing that we all too often take for granted. I guess I may have misconstrued(sp?) my words. For me, it just comes back to that old human nature thing. I am a teacher and I try to teach my students and set an example of patience, TOLERANCE and the importance of trying to understand where others are coming from. But at times it pains me to see that we live in a world and a society where some people are haters! I am a Jew who is married to a Mexican woman and I teach mainly hispanic and black kids. For the most part I feel "color blind" in my daily life until something external (a hater, the media,etc) reminds me that unfortunately many people spend their lives judging books by their covers. Sadly numerous non-sports fans have come up to me this week and asked me if heard about what that black QB did to those poor dogs. How many more times is the next white, first- round NBA pick who is over 6´8 going to be compared to Larry Bird by half of the media bozos even if their games entirely different? Again, I didn´t mean to attack our society.I feel lucky to have the opportunity to live in a time and in a society where I can have a life that is influenced by and awash in a mix of cultures. I just wish that more people felt the same, instead of always talking about US and THEM.

"No matter what I do, someone is going to like Mike Vick"
(Michael Vick)

Awesome attitude!

It looks like Vick cut the braids for the court appearance?? Or he tucked them into his suit?

I wonder if he read some comment from this post and thought that maybe the judge would be scared of him for having dreads...??

If not, then why cut them?

This whole thing could be an indictment against corn rows if you ask me!!!

bculzie, Michael Irving aint going NOWHERE and yes I did see how he avoided controversy. Folks like Michael because he is the only commentator with guts enough to take on Da Coach with effectiveness.

FUFF is hot like fire! And to ESPN's credit I heard Mike Golic defend Michael Vick like Johnny Cochoran! He contrasted the reaction to Sean Merriman vs how Vick has been handled. He said Americans hunt and certainly don't have a problem with killing animals. And he's right. Cheyene shot the animals and a human!

bculzie, Michael Irving aint going NOWHERE and yes I did see how he avoided controversy. Folks like Michael because he is the only commentator with guts enough to take on Da Coach with effectiveness.

FUFF is hot like fire! And to ESPN's credit I heard Mike Golic defend Michael Vick like Johnny Cochoran! He contrasted the reaction to Sean Merriman vs how Vick has been handled. He said Americans hunt and certainly don't have a problem with killing animals. And he's right. Cheyene shot the animals and a human!

Romie, did you see Feelys quote?

If what he says is true, and more NFL guys get indicted or names get dropped, what then?

Also, what the h*ll was DeON Sanders talking about?

After all this is said and done...Is this not just one big indictment against corn rows?

Where did they go Mike?

Probably didnt want to scare the judge....and i hope he didnt have a tooth pick on him!!!

Oh NOOOOOO!!!!!!

Vick puts his mom on the podium as his lawyer explains to us all how he can't wait to get in the courtroom (I will gladly give 50:1 that he pleads out).

What's up with that??? If I'm in trouble, I'm standing up there myself to take the beating.

Good stuff, fuff, good stuff - but I'm keeping my award. Culzie really wants me to have it anyway.

T-ro

Good catch - I noticed that too. That poor woman....she must be thinking "where did I go wrong raising this punk".

His lawyer reminds me of Jackie Childs...."michael will overcome these salacious accusations..."

Hundred page indictments never stick. Its the prosecutions way of saying - "we got nothin", and we are going to try and put your defense to useless work. ONLY Vick, his friends and attorneys really know what's up. And Vick is going to pay his friends off, and beat all of those charges. Unless they have VIDEO, they got NOTHIN. And you know they don't have video because it would be on youtube like R-kelly.

Roman responds: You disproved your point. There is video of R Kelly, and he's nowhere near jail.

Sports agents everywhere should advise their clients not to talk about Michael Vick. Don't answer any questions regarding Michael VIck, don't say anything that could be construed as support for Michael Vick, and cut the dreads off now ,'cuz we all know where that leads.

I wish someone would shoot Mike Golic...he has the intellect of an animal, and the most annoying habit of including the following with EVERYTHING he says ..."quite honestly" ...or "to be completely honest".

he's brutal...like most of the espn yellers

Keith, Vick's in serious trouble - I don't think he has ability to buy his way out of this one. You don't mess with the feds - they have something like a 97% conviction rate. At least one of the charges will stick for sure. He's in big big trouble.

Jason - good call on Vick's lawyer. "It's outragious, egregious, all of these salacious charges".

I'm convinced those were Vicks words in the statement he read since he mentions missing "spring training". What a complete dumb a$$.

Roman responds: I noticed that spring training, too. But there is no chance in the world anything coming out of the defense team - including things attributed to Vick - hasn't been crafted by the lawyers.

Really good point about the agents advising their clients.

Every single person who defends Mike, just sounds flat out ridiculous.

Deon Sanders said, "Mike fought dogs, because he thought he was the baddest dog.....and......believe it or not he probably really loved the dogs that WON"????

So, what about the dogs that lost?

What about when Vick loses...?

==
There is a sick and twisted "cats and the craddle" parady about Vick and dog fighting i heard on the FAN, kinda funny though...

one part...goes...(from the dogs perspective)...

...he threw me a bone yah...you know.....he un-der threw me a bone...yah!

look it up..its a train wreck!

...after re-reading ths post, i just want to say, i have nothing against corn rows, but I was just responding to someone saying in an old Tank thread that...

"white people are scared by a black man with corn rows and a toothpick"

and...i didnt see it posted, so i thought it was censored, so i kept trying to write a version that Roman would post, and well..i guess you were out enjoying your "life" you always brag about.

Sorry...corn rows! I still think you look good on some dudes! I aint mad atcha..

but he did cut them though!

Keith
The only indictment I've seen and heard is 18 pages, and very specific. If they have eye witnesses who are willing to testify (and save their own butt), this trial will never happen cuz Vick will cop a plea. From what I read, I believe they have at least 3 eyewitnesses.
This is not a local Jethro DA...these are the Feds and they're looking for a trophy.

Racial divide By Dan Wetzel - July 26, 2007

The thing is, the "animal rights people" were an estimated 90 percent white. The pro-Vick/due process crowd was probably 95 percent black.

As someone who grew up with a dog - and missed her very much when she died(14years in the family) - and viewing callousness of the DIVISIONS SO STRONGLY opposing towards one another, that I am NOT sure which sickens me more; the alleged behavior of a few or the behavior of many? Are humans actually the highest form of life form or allowed to think this?

Are the 90 per-centers sports fans or only dog lovers? If sports fans, why none on the side of Micheal Vick? No, closet fans do not count!

Are the 95 per-centers vehemently Pro-Black - this might cause some controversy - that Vick's ALLEDGED participation in this act makes them blinded to little doggie's well being? Can it be they know persecution is performed first and objectivity is thought about lastly?

Simply remember the principle applies to every Native born American.

The Constitution of the United States of America

I read it because I must!

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Sometimes when I read the added Amendments IV, V, VI my thoughts turn to did it include ALL of America's people?

Remember the preamble to the constitution - 'WE The People Of The United States'? When issues such as these arise, I have to read further and finally Amendments XIII and XV give me solace, but I know in my heart it is only pretty words to appease my First Amendment Right but with no bite - sorry for the pun - in it.

The Declaration of Independence is the only document that makes sense to me! Especially the first two paragraphs.

When, in the course of human events, it becomes
necessary for ONE people to dissolve the political
bonds which have connected them with another,
and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate
and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's
God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind
requires that they should declare the causes which impel them
to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights,
governments are instituted among men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any
form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is
the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute
new government, laying its foundation on such principles and
organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem
most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Your moment in Constitutional Rights brought to you by:....Drum roll please:

I think Roman said it better than I did: They had a VIDEO TAPE AAAAND an EYEWITNESS on R-Kelly and he is still out here singing.

Mark, Feds didn't get OJ, R-Kelly, or Barry Bonds and you KNOW they wanted those guys. Ask the Duke LaCrosse team if a good defense will get you out of hot water.

And don't get angry about that people. Its the American way. If you have money - you get off unless they witch-hunt you like they did O.J. Not saying I believe he was innocent or NOT, but that it was WRONG to John Wayne him in that civil case. He beat the system because he had MONEY. System was flawed - NOT HIM. I know it burns to watch an injustice.

...after re-reading ths post, i just want to say, i have nothing against corn rows, but I was just responding to someone saying in an old Tank thread that...

"white people are scared by a black man with corn rows and a toothpick"

and...i didnt see it posted, so i thought it was censored, so i kept trying to write a version that Roman would post, and well..i guess you were out enjoying your "life" you always brag about.

Sorry...corn rows! I still think you look good on some dudes! I aint mad atcha..

but he did cut them though!

Keith...you bring up some good points BUT -
OJ was was handled by inept local prosecuters who were...well...inept.
Duke Lacrosse was mis-handled by a local clown DA who was in a position to circumvent the law by pandering to the locals in order to get re-elected.

R-Kelly - I frankly don't know why he is still walking the streets and reveered by a segment of our society.

Bonds - from what I've read, getting a perjury case to take hold takes a lot. I don't have a good feel for that one.

Ultimately I think the public and media pressure against dog fighting will do in Vick. Dog fighting is a huge gang and hip-hop issue. Even Russell Simmons has made posters against it. This latest "superceding idictment" sounds like they will possibly drop charges against 1 of the others who will testify against Vick. Vick will either cop a plea or pins his hopes on getting a jury who will...how do I say...be sympathetic to his cause.

One of Vick's co-defendants changed his plea from not-guilty to guilty. Of course, that means he's going to get convicted on a lesser charge in exchange for testimony against Vick. This guy supposedly had a falling out with Vick, so he's ready to spill it.

Culzie, what's with all the duplicate entries? We all know you love to hear yourself talk (type), but we get it with one entry. And did you realize you actually complimented me? I guess I didn't completely blow it this week, huh?

His boy is turning states!

Thats not good for Mike.

I dont know about all that constitutional observation, but i will say this...Vick has the FEDS on him, not a local D.A. or a civil suit.

Now that TonyTaylor is going states, its only going to get worse for mike. He also pleaded NOT GUILTY which means a stiffer sentance if he doesnt win.

This has only just begun...

Keith, the feds may still get Barry...??

His boy is turning states!

Thats not good for Mike.

I dont know about all that constitutional observation, but i will say this...Vick has the FEDS on him, not a local D.A. or a civil suit.

Now that TonyTaylor is going states, its only going to get worse for mike. He also pleaded NOT GUILTY which means a stiffer sentance if he doesnt win.

This has only just begun...

Keith, the feds may still get Barry...??

T-ro...cut vick's mom some slack - at least she was wearing the falcons' colors.

People who work for the government are underpaid folks who just want to get some experience. The Lawyers in the private sector are high priced attorneys who SPECIALIZE in these kind of high profile cases. They rarely lose.

Even if they do have a witness, this guy can be discredited. He doesn't sound all that smart. Defense is going to rip him to shreds. OJ case had a ton of witnesses.

RICHMOND, Virginia (CNN) -- One of the co-defendants in the Michael Vick federal dogfighting case entered a guilty plea on Monday and pledged to fully cooperate with prosecutors.

As DJ would say....."UH OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

Keith
How "smart" can a guy be if he's into dog fighting? These guys are animals themselves if they do this stuff. I don't think this clown's IQ will have any impact.

OJ case had zero eyewitnesses to the crime but lots of post-crime witnesses to his wherabouts. This guy, and 4 others named in the indictment will put Vick at the center of this.
But I think I've come full circle on Vick's legal plan. Money is not an issue so that will not factor in to his decision to go to trial. Regardless of the outcome, his marketability will be next to nothing so his atty has essentially nothing to lose by putting him on trial as opposed to copping a plea. I agree with you that they will do a decent job of discreditting his accomplice but that still leaves you with 5 witnesses putting Vick at the scene. Unless of course they can get a plea without jail time - can't believe the feds would agree to that with PETA and others bearing down.

Sorry for the duplicates. I sometimes get a weird message when I post, saying I have to try again later...so...well....umm..not my fault!

Keith, the only witnesses to OJ's Knife wielding skills are dead. Who else witnessed it? kato? AC? Marcus Allen? Do you know something we dont? Did you mean, there were plenty of people who "testified" against OJ?

I think you mean witness in a loose sense, as in a court term, but i just wanted to clear that up. Also, your argument is a bit apples and orangie...since...OJ was a local DA and Vick is a Federal case.

His buddy turning states, pleading guilty and not getting a lesser charge, means, that they agreed to a lighter sentance if he turns on Vickatron! Thats "Bad News" for "Bad News" kennels!

I re- re- read many of my double posts, and i actually change my position again. I do have something against corn rows, but just skinny ones. Not like Ben Wallaces!

glad to see the naacp jump into this case to ask for "restraint". where was the same restraint when the duke lacrosse players were hammered by the NC chapter? I guess it's because those kids weren't "colored".

I think that this artilce I just read sums up what Keith and others are affraid of if you let the vegan mania go to far!!!

Carnivore sex off the menu
By REBECCA TODD - The Press | Tuesday, 31 July 2007
STACY SQUIRES/The Press
NO MEAT AND TWO VEGANS:
No sex, please, you're a carnivore.

A new phenomenon in New Zealand is taking the idea of you are what you eat to the extreme.

Vegansexuals are people who do not eat any meat or animal products, and who choose not to be sexually intimate with non-vegan partners whose bodies, they say, are made up of dead animals.

The co-director of the New Zealand Centre for Human and Animal Studies at Canterbury University, Annie Potts, said she coined the term after doing research

Roman responds: That's hilarious, a friend had just emailed that to me. I don't go that far.

Right...who can afford to be choosy? although...you do have that press pass!>!

John, I was going to post that same thing, since I saw that FOXnews interview too, but the guy did say they made a mistake on the Duke lacross case...to be fair.

What a joke though....restraint. I guess like the restraint Vick and Tony used when they opted to Electrocute instead of Body Slam their palooka of a dog.

Did anyone see that the NFL network has frozen Deon Sanders opinions on the Vick case, and forbid him to say anything else???

I think Neon was just asking us, in a weird way to show restraint as well.

I am actually, and I actually had a twinge of feeling bad for Vick, but then I realized i was just being fooled by his lack of cornrows!

I just watched the finale of Shaq's Big Challenge, my fiance' commented that it was nice to see an athlete doing something like this for the kids of our country and not getting in trouble.

I realize that the majority of athletes dont get in trouble and they do great things for their communities, and Im sure Vick even did great things for Atlanta, but it was such a contrast to watch the Shaq show and then see a news blurb about Vicks dog fighting.

The Shaquil O'Neil Wellness Wheel!

Love it

Bcully, thanks for having a positive post on Shaq. Some of us don't think possitive posts are possible anymore. Shaq is a good guy. He attacked a major epidemic in this country and nobody gives a rat's tail. No one is covering Shaq and he isn't getting ANY ink about what he is doing - from the sports press. Maybe if he worked out some pit bulls and got them in shape he might get some ink? Is it me or does it seems that sports writers/media only cover negative black athletes? Bcully can find a newsworthy story with his remote, but it seems sports writers can't find any.

pur countries Childhood Obesity epidemic is 10 bazillion times worse than Dog Fighting. Not even on the same planet.

I remember when they took gym down to 2wice a week for my little brother. I was mortified. Also, the food choices? I mean, we have so many righteous vegan celebs and eco-friendly peta lovers, but nobody cares what our OWN FREAKIN KIDS EAT? How crazy is that?

We care more about the nutrition of terrorists in Guantanamo Bay than we do about our schools menu's.

I think I broke 3-4 sweats everyday as a kid, now they arent breaking 10 sweats in their statistically shortened lifetimes.

Maybe Roman will do a post asking for Positive Pro athlete sports stories that we have all heard of in our lives, that have touched us or moved us to action!

I know I do my part keeping the kids healthy....

you miss a layup....its 20 pushups!

People still use the c-word? Was Mississppi burning on recently? Don't forget that those poor white kids got slammed by a white guy making his career off of ignoring the obvious fact that they probably weren't guilty. He didn't do it to appease black people. He did it because he WANTED to. Miscarriages of justice happen too often to black AND poor people of all nationalities to have only THAT case be some indication that the justice system is flawed. If a person can hurt his own people what do you think he's capable of doing to another race?

I'm sorry but I have to add something else in regard to bad D.A.s;Why is that Daley presided over a lot of miscarriages of justice and he get a pass? Jon Burge was able to lock up innocents and Daley put them away while doing the same thing that that other D.A. did. Is it because he only locked up men of color? Please show the same disdain the next time he runs for office. I know that this is a sports blog but I'm only speaking the truth. Picking and choosing to get angry about 4 kids out of the thousands that are locked up wrongly isn't fair. Somebody's loved-ones were wronged and it's only right to be angry about unjust situations across the board. I'm just tired of these four kids being the poster children for being wronged.

William
I'm guessing the reference to the "C word" is similar to my question. Why does the NAACP keep that in their name? I remember doing a paper on the group back in the day and I believe it started about 100 years ago - back when nobody turned their head when that word was used. I wonder if they can re-invigorate their missiion and purpose by changing their name to help call attention to real issues that exist.
Daley is a crook who has a lot of people protecting him - don't think anyone can argue that.

Dare I bring up Michael Jackson??

I can see not wanting to change the name for something from 100 years ago. Black people have wanted to be called so many different names that I lost count in my 43 years. Eventually it all comes back to something else. While watching Borat I noticed that a lot of the people from the south still followed Secession so to each it's own. And I guess it could be called NAAAA. But, come on, that sounds silly.

I guess it could be called NAAAA. But, come on, that sounds silly. (WRD)

THAT WAS SO KILLER...THAT LINE IS UP THERE FOR TOP 3 ALL TIME POSTS! SPOT ON!!

I say, regarding the C word or the N word, seriously, after what AA's went through, they can choose and have the right to call themselves anything they want. Shoot, make up a new language even (which sort of has happened).

using words like the N word in jest or as a term of endearment is part of the healing process, its empowering to take a word that was once something that hurt you, and then turning it around and using it as a joke. It takes the sting away! not that i would know;)

Thanks Bcully. Great post. Right attitude. You and Roman have it right. I am repulsed by what Michael "Sick" and many others are doing. Animals are defenseless and things like that should never happen to them or any of God's creatures, especially human beings. As a staunch Christian Humans are first among living things. IMHO

Such repulsion Stirs up memories of stories and pictures I have seen and heard. Pictures of Strange Fruit hanging in trees. Images of the open casket of Emmit Till and the photos of the haulocaust victims. I hate ALL attrocities. And my reaction is always going to be exactly the same. And my reaction towards ALL those who do such things is always going to be exactly the same.

i dont know about the strange fruit comment? Thats a bit out there....if I understood it right.

Keith, you do CRACK me up though, like my old uncle that you try to keep from getting loaded at the wedding, and then when he does, he's the life of the party!

Strange fruit is a Billie Holiday song about lynchings. The first song that played on words,I suppose.

Got it, sorry keith, im just not old as dirt like you and WIllyWill, so I didnt get the BH ref.

I went to a comedy club this weekend and both comedians had a bit about Vick.

Who's the next Vick, thats what I want to know?

Do you think any other NFL players will get indicted for dog fights?

Top 5 Things that the NFL manual should tell its players to avoid.

5. Dog Fighting Rings
4. Strip Clubs
3. Gun Stores
2. Arizona
1. State Lines

Anyone want to add...feel free!

I never heard the song until "Touched by an Angel" did some kind of episode on it. Or I think it was TBaA. I never really watched it but the eppy was interesting so I watched.

Doesnt look good for Vickers....im guessing 6Months jail time.

I think if he goes to jail, it will be the biggest star athlete to go to jail ever.

"I think if he goes to jail, it will be the biggest star athlete to go to jail ever."

Ever heard of Mike Tyson? Vick was a middle of the road QB...Tyson was the heavyweight champ!
Didn't Ray Lewis do time also?

I wouldn't glorify Ron Mexico...I will laugh it the Judge ups his plea agreement sentence - he'd not obliged to keep it at their negotiated sentence (supposedly 18-36 months).

so wat let vick be...............go vick

I love that someone just posted here....I was seeing if people actually posted on old threads still and low and behold...someone still holding a candle for old Vickers....will there be a new Vick post when he gets sentanced? Vick Threads were averaging around 200+ per thread. HOT BUTTON!!!!!!!!!!