I think that he deserves it, as he has some of the best all around numbers of any hitter that has played. I can honestly say that I think he was the best hitter in the 90's, and I think that has to say something.
I commented in the other post that Sammy is a lock for the hall of fame. I just think alot of boneheaded writers will not vote for him the first time around. Again, why do these people vote anyway? Are they telling me that the hall is voted upon by people like Mariotti? Geez.....we all know those guys are a bunch of morons. Ok I just got pissed off, aren't these same knuckleheads some of the people who didn't vote for "Buck O'Neil" to get into the Hall of Fame?
Frank Thomas should be in the Hall of Fame not necessarily for getting to 500, but for being one of the most significant hitters in the game in this generation. His absolute dominance of baseball between 1991 and 1997, when he put up equivalent averages (EqA) of .350, .346, .343, .379 (!!!), .350, .349 and .353 was what ensured him of a spot in Cooperstown. By comparison to Albert Pujols's EqAs since 2001 (.329, .320, .362, .342, .344, .353, .318) and Alex Rodriguez's EqAs (.324, .317, .315, .300, .338, .301, .350), it can be seen that Frank Thomas was way more dominant 1991-1997 than Pujols and A-Rod have been over the past 7 years, just to give an idea of how good he was. Despite the likelihood that A-Rod will be the all-time home run champion when he retires, I'd say that other than Barry Bonds, no offensive player in baseball crushed the competition more convincingly over the majority of a decade than Frank Thomas.
Frank's stats rank among the top 5 greatest right handed hitters of all time. You can look it up...
Julie - please don't put Sosa in the same sentence with Thomas. You can say a lot of negative things about Frank (and I have) but there is NO comparison on their hitting skills...let alone who did it the right way.
As a life long CubsFirst fan, there was a time when I liked no one better than BigFrank. The season that they had the lock out, Frank was on pace to win the Triple Crown Batting title.
I can actually pin point that as the exact moment that Baseball died in my heart. Not getting a chance to watch Frank lead the league in Homers/RBI;s and Batting Average ranked right up there with watching MJ leave the building.
If it werent for that LockOut, Frank would've probably gone on to win the triple crown and assured himself a place on the first floor of the HallOfFame.
Sammy and Frank are both hall of famers. I don't even look at their numbers because I watched them BOTH do it on the field. Sammy SAVED baseball and he should go in on that ALONE. Big Frank is disliked because of his personality - bunch of girly stuff! (no offense intended ladies). SOX had NO BIDNESS letting him go! How soon we forget! Have to be reminded of his GREATNESS by his reaching milestone after milestone (news preempting all of our games). Doesnt matter what color that uniform is...he is still getting it done. And I AM GOING TO SAY IT!!!! HE IS BETTER THAN THOME!!!! UM GETTING MAD! Frank was not Magglio, Rowand or Lee, he was the BEST Sox player to ever don that uniform. Frank should go in on his all around game (was a great first baseman also).
Jeffrey - didn't you just put them in the same sentence? I was just asking Roman why he thinks a player with 500 homers is HOF-worthy and one with 600 is not. I believe they both should be in. I also think Sammy had artificial help and Frank did not. As I have said before, statistics are really the only way to measure one's success, no matter your opinion of the guy. Unfortunately, the so-called "Steroid Era" is just going to be part of history. And I do hope that steroid use among pro athletes will just stop eventually, but realistically, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. You can't just wipe out all those years of stats because of speculation.
Roman responds: Why can't you? Joe Jackson isn't in the Hall because of speculation he helped throw the World Series.
Roman, remember your list of other players you speculated were using steroids - it included Barry Bonds. Are you saying HE shouldn't be in the Hall? He should because he's about to break THE record in baseball, and everyone suspects Barry is guilty.
Roman responds: It can be argued Bonds would have made it even if he wasn't rubbing what he thought was flaxseed oil onto his body. So even without suspicions, Bonds would have a good chance. I'm not sure that's the case with Sammy, who would have been a good player, but not a 60-homer guy.
Julie - let's ignore steroids/HGH for a minute. There is no comparison to the offensive numbers between Frank and Sosa. I believe there are 3 other hitter EVER to hit 500 HRs and average over .300. His mid-1990s offensive production was mind boggling when you look at average, on-base %, HR, RBIs. Two MVPs and a third was stolen by steroid induced Giambi.
Sosa was a mid 30s HR hitter and magically started hitting mid 60s after putting on 30+ pounds of muscle. Then he was out of baseball the same year baseball started testing for roids.
People can be convicted of murder in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence. The circumstantial evidence of Sosa using roids/HGH is overwhelming.
Julie - let's ignore steroids/HGH for a minute. There is no comparison to the offensive numbers between Frank and Sosa. I believe there are 3 other RH hitters hitter EVER to hit 500 HRs and average over .300. His mid-1990s offensive production was mind boggling when you look at average, on-base %, HR, RBIs. Two MVPs and a third was stolen by steroid induced Giambi.
Sosa was a mid 30s HR hitter and magically started hitting mid 60s after putting on 30+ pounds of muscle. Then he was out of baseball the same year baseball started testing for roids.
People can be convicted of murder in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence. The circumstantial evidence of Sosa using roids/HGH is overwhelming.
Do you get convicted in a court of law on circumstantial evidence? Joe Jackson was caught. Pete Rose was caught. They were both banned for life from baseball. They both have career numbers that would make them no-brainers for the Hall, if only they hadn't been caught doing their crimes. Sammy, as of now, hasn't been caught. His stats are still his stats, and 600 home runs is a real lot of 'em. All those runs that crossed the plate still count in the record books. One could also argue that steroids were not always considered a "crime." And Roman, you and I finally agree on something here - you can only speculate on a guy's success if he hadn't been taking steroids. That's why, I believe, the stats on paper are really all we have right now. If any of these guys do get caught, then no way they should be in the Hall.
Roman responds: What exactly did Joe Jackson get "caught" doing? Having an excellent World Series? Guilty. Trying to warn Comiskey the fix was in? Guilty. Trying to give money back he never wanted in the first place? Guilty. Corking his bat? Not guilty. Pretending he can't speak English during an important Congressional hearing? Not guilty. Taking a year off after MLB finally put some teeth in a steroid policy? Not guilty.
Civil law requires a simple burden of proof verdict (prepoderance of the evidence) or a percentage (50% or greater).
Criminal Law requires a "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" verdict. If a reasonable person can conclude that a player might not have used steroids, then there can be NO CONVICTION of a crime.
But, man, have you noticed how much bigger Thomas is since he's first got into the league.... ; )
Again, if you are going to put players into the HOF from this era, you are going to have to let the "suspected steriod players" in as well. Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield - all proven to have used steriods. The "proof" against Sosa is nowhere near the proof against those guys. But, we have no way of knowing who did them or not. Clemens, Bagewell, Biggio, Thomas, etc? We don't know if they used or not. Look at A-Rod right now and compare him to when he came up as a 19 year old with the Mariners. He's much bigger and thicker. If he hits 75 HRs this year, do we start suspecting that he used steriods? So, since we don't know who used it, we either let no one in, or everybody in.
Roman responds: You may be right. I'm glad I don't have a vote.
Do you get convicted in a court of law on circumstantial evidence? Joe Jackson was caught. Pete Rose was caught. They were both banned for life from baseball. They both have career numbers that would make them no-brainers for the Hall, if only they hadn't been caught doing their crimes. Sammy, as of now, hasn't been caught. His stats are still his stats, and 600 home runs is a real lot of 'em. All those runs that crossed the plate still count in the record books. One could also argue that steroids were not always considered a "crime." And Roman, you and I finally agree on something here - you can only speculate on a guy's success if he hadn't been taking steroids. That's why, I believe, the stats on paper are really all we have right now. If any of these guys do get caught, then no way they should be in the Hall.
I don't even understand an argument against Thomas not being in the HOF.....
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think there needs to be something said about Sosa being a mid-30HR guy who suddenly hit 60 HRs.
In 1993, at 24 Sosa hit 33 Hrs. Is this when he started juicing?The next year was the strike year and he hit 25 - which equates to 36 over a full year. The next year (still shorted by the strike), at 26, he hit 36, which over a full year would be 40 HRs. Now, he's hitting his prime baseball years...the next year at 27 he hit 40 HRs, but missed 38 games after breaking his wrist in August on a HBP. Extrapolated out - that would be 52 HRs. Has he started juicing? The following year - coming off a broken wrist - he hit 36 HRs. Ask Derrek Lee how breaking your wrist effects your power numbers. But Sosa plays every game for crappy team and manages his 36 HRs. The following year he hits his 66 and so on. Apparently that's when he started juicing. He then has 4 prolific seasons during his ultimate baseball prime years. Then 49. Then he gets hit in the head with a Soloman Torres fastball and that the beginning of the spiral downward....still managing to hit 40, and 35 HRs along the way...
Do I think he used steriods? Probably, because I suspect him as much as all the others. But I don't suspect him more JUST BECAUSE he hit HRs. But don't say he went from a mid 30 HR guy to a 60 HR guy without looking "inside the numbers"...
Big Frank is in the Hall. A career .300 hitter with 500 HR and over 1,600 RBI is a no-brainer. He was the AL's, if not the game's, most feared hitter for a decade and didn't get to 500 by just swinging away. How many other 500 HR guys also have 1,600 walks?
Joe Jackson knew about the fix, participated in it and did not report it. He received a lifetime ban from baseball for that. In my estimation, that's being "caught."
Roman responds: He did tell Comiskey. He didn't participate in it. He had very good stats in that Series.
Frank Thomas was always in favor of testing for steroids from what I've read in the past. He should be in the Hall wearing a White Sox uniform. Franks always been huge unlike Sosa and Bonds.
Burden of proof can take the form of circumstantial evidence - when there is no eye witness to a murder, the prosecutor paints a picture of circumstantial evidence strong enough to convict "beyond a reasonable doubt". LOTS of murderers are sent to jail without an eye witness to a crime.
Do I think Sosa used steroids? probably, but what is the proof that you have? and circumstantial evidence that you have compiled is what? And how is different from the proof against 99% of the other players? the fact that he got bigger and hit more homeruns? Is that it? Can't we say the same thing about A-Rod? He got bigger and hit more homeruns than he did when he was 19. Well, he's guilty too.
Yes, murderers are often convicted on circumstantial evidence. But its more than, "wow, it sure looks like he could have murdered someone." Did Sosa have motive and opportunity? yes, but so did every other player in the majors. He hasn't been connected to either BALCO or Canseco or the HGH sting. But he receives more flack than Sheffield, Clemens, I-Rod, and all the others because.....he hit alot of HRs!
Julie B. were you not my math tutor in high school? I believe you are that same person...*smile*...Come on Julie B. quit acting like you do not comprehend the difference in the numbers and how they were acquired...I got an A in Geometry or Trig!! You were such a good tutor I simply remember getting good grades...*smile*
Now Ms Julie B., if Frank Thomas was using steriods he would be a helluva lot closer to 600 homers than Sammy would have came up in his wildest dreams. Sammy did it, but there is cork bats breaking in half, and where there is cork bats there is likelihood of steroid use.
Look at the stats, I know you are a numbers girl(woman)!
Frank Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average, and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 RBIs, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997). CONSISTENCY!!
This achievement is even more remarkable considering in 1994 despite playing only 113 games, the labor stoppage shorten that season prematurely, Frank still was able to attain these lofty numbers, thereby keeping the streak alive. REMARKABLE!? HELL THAT IS A MIRACLE IN ITSELF! Frank Thomas could flat out hit the damn baseball!
What were Sammy's numbers in 1994? Played in 105 games, hit 25 homers, drove in 70 RBIs and struck out 92 times --Jesus woman, Frank had more walks than that!!, and batting average of .300 not bad, but not good enough. Frank was batting .353 and slugging percentage over .700!! Come on Julie B. the numbers do not lie.
Even after being traded to the Okland Athletics after the OUR World Championship, Thomas become their everyday DH, he ended the season as the team leader in home runs, RBI, slugging percentage, and on-base percentage. SOUNDS FAMILIAR, doesn't it?
Julia my darling, opposing pitchers wouldn't even pitch to Frank and bases would be empty. They did not want him to knock one out to Dan Ryan Expressway!!....*Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha*....How you think he lead the league in walks for several years?
Also Mr Thomas Height is 6' 5", and Weighs 257 lb --Do you really think that is out of porportion for Frank? Matter of fact the White Sox Management would get on him to keep it down when playing with the team.
(Also, remember Frank played football in college)
Julie B. (my former math tutor) The numbers do not add up, the deductive reasoning you explained will not allow me to simply give Sammy Sosa a free walk into the HOF!
Below is link to Sammy Sosa's stats
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=sosasa01
Below is link to Frank Thomas's stats
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=thomafr04
Love ya Julie B, and stop the confused act...*smile*...
Sammy and Frank are both hall of famers. I don't even look at their numbers because I watched them BOTH do it on the field. Sammy SAVED baseball and he should go in on that ALONE.
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 29, 2007 08:30 AM
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Keith-Southsider, do you really believe Sammy SAVED baseball or he just made it exciting in Chicago? The Championships? Where are the Championships Keith-Southsider?
I understand you as a Chicagoan, but not as a true fan of the game, it ain't going to wash clean Keith! Kerry Woods - he brought excitement. Cubs Management messed him up letting him pitch until his arm is not worth a damn anymore!
Off-topic, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Micheal Jordan brought basketball back to life. The former were winning championships while the latter was getting his brains knocked out by Detroit. BUT HE EVENTUALLY GOT THE CHAMPIONSHIPS!!
That is giving LIFE, we talk about those championships now. I do not talk about the homer's Sammy has hit. Come on man!
Joe Montana brought life to football, NO NOT Dan Marino!(he brought excitement, but not life to the game. I do not talk about Dan Marino, but damn if Montana does not come up.
YOU GOTTA win the Championships to bring life to the game my man. See how much life Chicago White Sox fans still have after 2005. We still talking big and losing to them worthless Cubbies (Cub Fans had to throw a punch in there) and in the bottom of the division...grinning...
AT LEAST FRANK PLAYED ON THAT ONE CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM!! He was hurt, but refused to be denied his honors after carrying the team for so many years. We are going to REMEMBER THE BIG HURT!!
I do not dislike Sammy, but where are the Championships? Mr Ernie Banks, Mr Billy Williams are HOFers, but if the Cubbies had won a championship or two during their playing time, Ron Santo might be in the Hall of Fame right now. I don't know, but it is a possibility.
Yes, it is me, Julie B., your former math tutor. All the men just became insanely jealous of you. I remember you very well, as a matter of fact. You were a feisty SOB back then too, but you're point is well taken. If you don't believe Sammy has the numbers to put him in the Hall, that's fine, that's your opinion. I happen to disagree with you. You also don't have to sell me on Frank. I've always been a fan of his, and I've never suspected him of enhancing his career artificially. Sammy, more than likely, has used steroids, as have so many others we can't even imagine. But I don't know for sure, and neither do you. My point is that all we have - until we have solid proof substantiating all the suspicion, not circumstantial evidence, are the stats. I still think the accomplishment of hitting 600 home runs should be enough to get a guy in the Hall. You sure I gave you an A?
To Roman: Your comment on one posting is very unfortunate and Fox-esque. "There's no proof Sammy did, and there's no proof Frank didn't." By saying that there's no proof Frank didn't, you are defaming the one sure clean baseball player of that generation. Never a question about it. His body didn't go fron 180lbs to 240lbs; and his performance didn't explode like Sosa's did. I suggest you revise you comment, limiting it to Sosa and leave Frank out of the conversation.
Roman responds: The Fox-esque shot hurt - badly. I don't think Frank did anything. I saw him in the locker room and he's huge, but for some reason it just struck me as natural mass. Who knows, I'm not a doctor. And neither are you. Unless you're a friend of Frank's who's been with him 24/7, you don't know either. Some people think Thome's cheated, others thing Clemens has. You just can't tell. Look at the guys who have gotten caught. Some of them are scrawny shortstops. It's impossible to tell. Which is why I guess you just an asterisk over the whole era and vote on stats.
BTW - Roman, I guess I'll just have to defer to you regarding what happened to Joe Jackson. But if he wasn't caught doing anything, then why was he banned from baseball? He'd be in the the Hall too, if only........
WOW...If you really want some perspective on your boy Sammy, you should really read the up-close books on Barry Bonds. To date, the only legal proceedings Bonds has started is suing the authors of "Game of Shadows" for illegally obtaining grand jury testimony - NOT for any of the accusations contained in the book.
While Bonds was a hall of famer before roids, you can actually blame Sammy and McGuire on Bonds' roid use in the late 90s. Bonds saw these freaks guys hitting home runs in 1998 and decided he should play the same game.
(from Game of Shadows)
"Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on"
Douglas my friend you are right. The trully great ones are WINNERS. But there are times when what you do effects the History of the Sport. And Sammy and Mac shattered that home run record at a time when baseball was on very shaky leggs. People who were disgusted with the strike, Pete Rose and greedy owners were made to remember Ruth and Maris for a summer. I remember clearly because while Sammy was on the Northside clubbin away, Big-Frank was on the Southside with Black Jack McDowell and the Southside Hitmen making fireworks to sparse crowds and diehard fans!!!! We are too soon to forget. And I trully thought the Sox would NEVER forget Frank.
We like our stars perfect, but I am smart enough to know there is only one perfect person - ever to walk the planet.
I was born in Chicago on the North side and grew up on the South side. I have always been a Sox fan and have rooted for the Cubs as well but I have a problem with Sammy and Frank. One thinks that he is God's gift to baseball and the other is nothing but a cry baby. I don't care if Frank gets in the hall but as long as there is some doubt as to if Sammy took drugs, he shouldn't be considered for the Hall. Bonds should not be even be considered for the hall or should never be considered breaking Hank Aaron's record
There isn't a person in any sport who doesn't have an ego. Some people are just better covering it up. And anyone who has had to deal with some of the media in this city should get a medal because any way the wind blows brings on a new opinion. As far as I can see,I'm not sure which is a crybaby or who is the God's gift. They both have exhibited that trait along with a bunch of other players who have played in Chicago. It should be what you did on the field and not how you act that got you in the hall. If it did,why are some womanizers and drunks in the the hall? Are they a good example for the league?
yeah...he hit all them homer's WITH his baby fat. Did he get Baby Huehyroids? You know, I heard he was pretty good friends with Mark Mcguire and Jose Canseco. They were 'priming' him to be a member of the 'A's'...if you know what I mean. It just took him longer to get to Oakland,and to hit a meaningless 500 homeruns.
Maybe they should make him wait just as long to join the hall of fame. I'll probably be dead. Then, you would get no argument from me.
He risked aggravating his knee injury by flying to Washington to testify on steroid use, and he didn't complain, because he wanted everyone to know he has nothing to hide. I don't think anyone in baseball suspects Frank, and yet everyone suspects McGuire, Bonds, and Sosa. There's probably a reason for this.
The press and fans in Chicago berated him for all kinds of ridiculous things, including that he wasn't enough of a leader, whatever that means. Nonetheless, he stayed loyal to the very end, and who can blame him for being bitter when he was dumped? The Sox haven't been the same since he was canned, and did anyone notice his late season surge last year, where he punished the Sox severely and helped Oakland make the playoffs? Even old and hobbled he put up better numbers than Thome for the last month of the season. The Sox would have gotten to the playoffs if they had kept him.
Frank has also been a favorite target for pitchers. During the World Championship year he was the worst victim of intentional beanings I have ever seen - it almost looked like pitchers from all different teams were conspiring to injure him - and he still managed to hit a bunch of home runs in limited playing time. Did Thomas' hitting give the Sox just enough victories to make the playoffs? Well, it sure didn't hurt.
Yeah, Thomas likes to brag, but he always backs it up, so who cares?
Finally, he was robbed of his chance for a triple crown and possible postseason playing time when that odious strike occured. Baseball shouldn't rob him again.
The records in baseball are so ridiculous these days that I can't believe anyone takes them seriously.
Steroids are just one thing.
What else makes it easier to hit home runs than it was for Babe Ruth?
Let's see, we have smaller ballparks with less foul territory. The ball is livelier, and I don't think they discarded every ball that was hit or touched the ground in the Babe's day. The bats are different. The league has expanded. MORE GAMES ARE PLAYED IN A SEASON. Pitchers don't throw at hitters as often.
If Ruth were in his prime and playing baseball today he would probably hit 90 home runs in one year. Too bad there aren't records of how many times he hit the ball to the warning track when those warning tracks were ten to thirty feet farther from the plate than they are now, or how many times he was out on pop flies that were in foul ground that is now occupied by stands.
Ruth trumps Maris because Maris needed the extra games afforded to him by an extended season to break Ruth's record (he wouldn't have if they had played the same number of games). Also, the league was expanded the year Maris hit those home runs. Maris trumps Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, etc. for the reasons I've already gone into.
So Ruth had the greatest power year ever, if not the numbers, and Aaron had the best power-hitting career of all time - Bonds will break the record, but that will be meaningless.
It's so sad that both the single season and career home run records wil be held by a steroid freak. After that, I'll really cheer for someone to break them, even if they are historically irrelevant.
John S...good points. Two you missed is lowering the pitchers mounds and expansion.
In the days of Koufax and Gibson, they were throwing downhill! That's why it wasn't unusual to see team batting averages in the 1960's of .220. I can't remember the year they changed (early 70s ?) but that has made a huge difference.
Expansion means that there are probably 20-30 pitchers who have no business pitching in the majors. Look at the rosters around the league or even the Cubs/Sox...those pitchers at the end are BAD.
Comments
You think Frank deserves to get in with 500, but not Sammy with 600? That's confusing.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 28, 2007 03:13 PM
Frank is my favorite Sox player! He deserves his day in the sun. Cooperstown make lots of room for the Big Hurt!
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 28, 2007 03:42 PM
I think that he deserves it, as he has some of the best all around numbers of any hitter that has played. I can honestly say that I think he was the best hitter in the 90's, and I think that has to say something.
I commented in the other post that Sammy is a lock for the hall of fame. I just think alot of boneheaded writers will not vote for him the first time around. Again, why do these people vote anyway? Are they telling me that the hall is voted upon by people like Mariotti? Geez.....we all know those guys are a bunch of morons. Ok I just got pissed off, aren't these same knuckleheads some of the people who didn't vote for "Buck O'Neil" to get into the Hall of Fame?
I rest my case. Those people don't know SQUAT!
Posted by: Bryant | June 28, 2007 04:11 PM
Frank Thomas should be in the Hall of Fame not necessarily for getting to 500, but for being one of the most significant hitters in the game in this generation. His absolute dominance of baseball between 1991 and 1997, when he put up equivalent averages (EqA) of .350, .346, .343, .379 (!!!), .350, .349 and .353 was what ensured him of a spot in Cooperstown. By comparison to Albert Pujols's EqAs since 2001 (.329, .320, .362, .342, .344, .353, .318) and Alex Rodriguez's EqAs (.324, .317, .315, .300, .338, .301, .350), it can be seen that Frank Thomas was way more dominant 1991-1997 than Pujols and A-Rod have been over the past 7 years, just to give an idea of how good he was. Despite the likelihood that A-Rod will be the all-time home run champion when he retires, I'd say that other than Barry Bonds, no offensive player in baseball crushed the competition more convincingly over the majority of a decade than Frank Thomas.
Posted by: Noles | June 28, 2007 04:14 PM
Frank's stats rank among the top 5 greatest right handed hitters of all time. You can look it up...
Julie - please don't put Sosa in the same sentence with Thomas. You can say a lot of negative things about Frank (and I have) but there is NO comparison on their hitting skills...let alone who did it the right way.
Posted by: Jeffrey | June 28, 2007 08:04 PM
As a life long CubsFirst fan, there was a time when I liked no one better than BigFrank. The season that they had the lock out, Frank was on pace to win the Triple Crown Batting title.
I can actually pin point that as the exact moment that Baseball died in my heart. Not getting a chance to watch Frank lead the league in Homers/RBI;s and Batting Average ranked right up there with watching MJ leave the building.
If it werent for that LockOut, Frank would've probably gone on to win the triple crown and assured himself a place on the first floor of the HallOfFame.
But he was no Andrew Dawson (wink wink).
Posted by: bculz | June 28, 2007 10:20 PM
Sammy and Frank are both hall of famers. I don't even look at their numbers because I watched them BOTH do it on the field. Sammy SAVED baseball and he should go in on that ALONE. Big Frank is disliked because of his personality - bunch of girly stuff! (no offense intended ladies). SOX had NO BIDNESS letting him go! How soon we forget! Have to be reminded of his GREATNESS by his reaching milestone after milestone (news preempting all of our games). Doesnt matter what color that uniform is...he is still getting it done. And I AM GOING TO SAY IT!!!! HE IS BETTER THAN THOME!!!! UM GETTING MAD! Frank was not Magglio, Rowand or Lee, he was the BEST Sox player to ever don that uniform. Frank should go in on his all around game (was a great first baseman also).
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 29, 2007 08:30 AM
Jeffrey - didn't you just put them in the same sentence? I was just asking Roman why he thinks a player with 500 homers is HOF-worthy and one with 600 is not. I believe they both should be in. I also think Sammy had artificial help and Frank did not. As I have said before, statistics are really the only way to measure one's success, no matter your opinion of the guy. Unfortunately, the so-called "Steroid Era" is just going to be part of history. And I do hope that steroid use among pro athletes will just stop eventually, but realistically, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. You can't just wipe out all those years of stats because of speculation.
Roman responds: Why can't you? Joe Jackson isn't in the Hall because of speculation he helped throw the World Series.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 29, 2007 08:37 AM
Roman, remember your list of other players you speculated were using steroids - it included Barry Bonds. Are you saying HE shouldn't be in the Hall? He should because he's about to break THE record in baseball, and everyone suspects Barry is guilty.
Roman responds: It can be argued Bonds would have made it even if he wasn't rubbing what he thought was flaxseed oil onto his body. So even without suspicions, Bonds would have a good chance. I'm not sure that's the case with Sammy, who would have been a good player, but not a 60-homer guy.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 29, 2007 09:14 AM
Julie - let's ignore steroids/HGH for a minute. There is no comparison to the offensive numbers between Frank and Sosa. I believe there are 3 other hitter EVER to hit 500 HRs and average over .300. His mid-1990s offensive production was mind boggling when you look at average, on-base %, HR, RBIs. Two MVPs and a third was stolen by steroid induced Giambi.
Sosa was a mid 30s HR hitter and magically started hitting mid 60s after putting on 30+ pounds of muscle. Then he was out of baseball the same year baseball started testing for roids.
People can be convicted of murder in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence. The circumstantial evidence of Sosa using roids/HGH is overwhelming.
Posted by: Jeffrey | June 29, 2007 09:20 AM
Julie - let's ignore steroids/HGH for a minute. There is no comparison to the offensive numbers between Frank and Sosa. I believe there are 3 other RH hitters hitter EVER to hit 500 HRs and average over .300. His mid-1990s offensive production was mind boggling when you look at average, on-base %, HR, RBIs. Two MVPs and a third was stolen by steroid induced Giambi.
Sosa was a mid 30s HR hitter and magically started hitting mid 60s after putting on 30+ pounds of muscle. Then he was out of baseball the same year baseball started testing for roids.
People can be convicted of murder in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence. The circumstantial evidence of Sosa using roids/HGH is overwhelming.
Posted by: Jeffrey | June 29, 2007 09:21 AM
Do you get convicted in a court of law on circumstantial evidence? Joe Jackson was caught. Pete Rose was caught. They were both banned for life from baseball. They both have career numbers that would make them no-brainers for the Hall, if only they hadn't been caught doing their crimes. Sammy, as of now, hasn't been caught. His stats are still his stats, and 600 home runs is a real lot of 'em. All those runs that crossed the plate still count in the record books. One could also argue that steroids were not always considered a "crime." And Roman, you and I finally agree on something here - you can only speculate on a guy's success if he hadn't been taking steroids. That's why, I believe, the stats on paper are really all we have right now. If any of these guys do get caught, then no way they should be in the Hall.
Roman responds: What exactly did Joe Jackson get "caught" doing? Having an excellent World Series? Guilty. Trying to warn Comiskey the fix was in? Guilty. Trying to give money back he never wanted in the first place? Guilty. Corking his bat? Not guilty. Pretending he can't speak English during an important Congressional hearing? Not guilty. Taking a year off after MLB finally put some teeth in a steroid policy? Not guilty.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 29, 2007 09:45 AM
My dear friend Jeffrey.
Civil law requires a simple burden of proof verdict (prepoderance of the evidence) or a percentage (50% or greater).
Criminal Law requires a "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" verdict. If a reasonable person can conclude that a player might not have used steroids, then there can be NO CONVICTION of a crime.
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 29, 2007 10:07 AM
Frank Thomas is a HOFer. It's a no brainer.
But, man, have you noticed how much bigger Thomas is since he's first got into the league.... ; )
Again, if you are going to put players into the HOF from this era, you are going to have to let the "suspected steriod players" in as well. Bonds, Giambi, Sheffield - all proven to have used steriods. The "proof" against Sosa is nowhere near the proof against those guys. But, we have no way of knowing who did them or not. Clemens, Bagewell, Biggio, Thomas, etc? We don't know if they used or not. Look at A-Rod right now and compare him to when he came up as a 19 year old with the Mariners. He's much bigger and thicker. If he hits 75 HRs this year, do we start suspecting that he used steriods? So, since we don't know who used it, we either let no one in, or everybody in.
Roman responds: You may be right. I'm glad I don't have a vote.
Posted by: J.O. | June 29, 2007 10:41 AM
Do you get convicted in a court of law on circumstantial evidence? Joe Jackson was caught. Pete Rose was caught. They were both banned for life from baseball. They both have career numbers that would make them no-brainers for the Hall, if only they hadn't been caught doing their crimes. Sammy, as of now, hasn't been caught. His stats are still his stats, and 600 home runs is a real lot of 'em. All those runs that crossed the plate still count in the record books. One could also argue that steroids were not always considered a "crime." And Roman, you and I finally agree on something here - you can only speculate on a guy's success if he hadn't been taking steroids. That's why, I believe, the stats on paper are really all we have right now. If any of these guys do get caught, then no way they should be in the Hall.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 29, 2007 11:39 AM
I don't even understand an argument against Thomas not being in the HOF.....
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I think there needs to be something said about Sosa being a mid-30HR guy who suddenly hit 60 HRs.
In 1993, at 24 Sosa hit 33 Hrs. Is this when he started juicing?The next year was the strike year and he hit 25 - which equates to 36 over a full year. The next year (still shorted by the strike), at 26, he hit 36, which over a full year would be 40 HRs. Now, he's hitting his prime baseball years...the next year at 27 he hit 40 HRs, but missed 38 games after breaking his wrist in August on a HBP. Extrapolated out - that would be 52 HRs. Has he started juicing? The following year - coming off a broken wrist - he hit 36 HRs. Ask Derrek Lee how breaking your wrist effects your power numbers. But Sosa plays every game for crappy team and manages his 36 HRs. The following year he hits his 66 and so on. Apparently that's when he started juicing. He then has 4 prolific seasons during his ultimate baseball prime years. Then 49. Then he gets hit in the head with a Soloman Torres fastball and that the beginning of the spiral downward....still managing to hit 40, and 35 HRs along the way...
Do I think he used steriods? Probably, because I suspect him as much as all the others. But I don't suspect him more JUST BECAUSE he hit HRs. But don't say he went from a mid 30 HR guy to a 60 HR guy without looking "inside the numbers"...
Posted by: J.O. | June 29, 2007 12:12 PM
Roman you're my brother from another mother, but Jules is on it!
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 29, 2007 12:14 PM
Big Frank is in the Hall. A career .300 hitter with 500 HR and over 1,600 RBI is a no-brainer. He was the AL's, if not the game's, most feared hitter for a decade and didn't get to 500 by just swinging away. How many other 500 HR guys also have 1,600 walks?
Posted by: J. Rossi | June 29, 2007 12:28 PM
Joe Jackson knew about the fix, participated in it and did not report it. He received a lifetime ban from baseball for that. In my estimation, that's being "caught."
Roman responds: He did tell Comiskey. He didn't participate in it. He had very good stats in that Series.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 29, 2007 12:30 PM
Frank Thomas was always in favor of testing for steroids from what I've read in the past. He should be in the Hall wearing a White Sox uniform. Franks always been huge unlike Sosa and Bonds.
Posted by: dan | June 29, 2007 12:48 PM
Keith
Burden of proof can take the form of circumstantial evidence - when there is no eye witness to a murder, the prosecutor paints a picture of circumstantial evidence strong enough to convict "beyond a reasonable doubt". LOTS of murderers are sent to jail without an eye witness to a crime.
Posted by: Jeffrey | June 29, 2007 02:22 PM
I think that comment from Jeffrey was for me.
Do I think Sosa used steroids? probably, but what is the proof that you have? and circumstantial evidence that you have compiled is what? And how is different from the proof against 99% of the other players? the fact that he got bigger and hit more homeruns? Is that it? Can't we say the same thing about A-Rod? He got bigger and hit more homeruns than he did when he was 19. Well, he's guilty too.
Yes, murderers are often convicted on circumstantial evidence. But its more than, "wow, it sure looks like he could have murdered someone." Did Sosa have motive and opportunity? yes, but so did every other player in the majors. He hasn't been connected to either BALCO or Canseco or the HGH sting. But he receives more flack than Sheffield, Clemens, I-Rod, and all the others because.....he hit alot of HRs!
Posted by: J.O. | June 29, 2007 05:27 PM
You think Frank deserves to get in with 500, but not Sammy with 600? That's confusing.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 28, 2007 03:13 PM
******************************************************************
Julie B. were you not my math tutor in high school? I believe you are that same person...*smile*...Come on Julie B. quit acting like you do not comprehend the difference in the numbers and how they were acquired...I got an A in Geometry or Trig!! You were such a good tutor I simply remember getting good grades...*smile*
Now Ms Julie B., if Frank Thomas was using steriods he would be a helluva lot closer to 600 homers than Sammy would have came up in his wildest dreams. Sammy did it, but there is cork bats breaking in half, and where there is cork bats there is likelihood of steroid use.
Look at the stats, I know you are a numbers girl(woman)!
Frank Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average, and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 RBIs, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997). CONSISTENCY!!
This achievement is even more remarkable considering in 1994 despite playing only 113 games, the labor stoppage shorten that season prematurely, Frank still was able to attain these lofty numbers, thereby keeping the streak alive. REMARKABLE!? HELL THAT IS A MIRACLE IN ITSELF! Frank Thomas could flat out hit the damn baseball!
What were Sammy's numbers in 1994? Played in 105 games, hit 25 homers, drove in 70 RBIs and struck out 92 times --Jesus woman, Frank had more walks than that!!, and batting average of .300 not bad, but not good enough. Frank was batting .353 and slugging percentage over .700!! Come on Julie B. the numbers do not lie.
Even after being traded to the Okland Athletics after the OUR World Championship, Thomas become their everyday DH, he ended the season as the team leader in home runs, RBI, slugging percentage, and on-base percentage. SOUNDS FAMILIAR, doesn't it?
Julia my darling, opposing pitchers wouldn't even pitch to Frank and bases would be empty. They did not want him to knock one out to Dan Ryan Expressway!!....*Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha*....How you think he lead the league in walks for several years?
Also Mr Thomas Height is 6' 5", and Weighs 257 lb --Do you really think that is out of porportion for Frank? Matter of fact the White Sox Management would get on him to keep it down when playing with the team.
(Also, remember Frank played football in college)
Julie B. (my former math tutor) The numbers do not add up, the deductive reasoning you explained will not allow me to simply give Sammy Sosa a free walk into the HOF!
Below is link to Sammy Sosa's stats
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=sosasa01
Below is link to Frank Thomas's stats
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=thomafr04
Love ya Julie B, and stop the confused act...*smile*...
Posted by: Keep Slugging Big Hurt!! | June 29, 2007 05:37 PM
Sammy and Frank are both hall of famers. I don't even look at their numbers because I watched them BOTH do it on the field. Sammy SAVED baseball and he should go in on that ALONE.
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | June 29, 2007 08:30 AM
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Keith-Southsider, do you really believe Sammy SAVED baseball or he just made it exciting in Chicago? The Championships? Where are the Championships Keith-Southsider?
I understand you as a Chicagoan, but not as a true fan of the game, it ain't going to wash clean Keith! Kerry Woods - he brought excitement. Cubs Management messed him up letting him pitch until his arm is not worth a damn anymore!
Off-topic, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Micheal Jordan brought basketball back to life. The former were winning championships while the latter was getting his brains knocked out by Detroit. BUT HE EVENTUALLY GOT THE CHAMPIONSHIPS!!
That is giving LIFE, we talk about those championships now. I do not talk about the homer's Sammy has hit. Come on man!
Joe Montana brought life to football, NO NOT Dan Marino!(he brought excitement, but not life to the game. I do not talk about Dan Marino, but damn if Montana does not come up.
YOU GOTTA win the Championships to bring life to the game my man. See how much life Chicago White Sox fans still have after 2005. We still talking big and losing to them worthless Cubbies (Cub Fans had to throw a punch in there) and in the bottom of the division...grinning...
AT LEAST FRANK PLAYED ON THAT ONE CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM!! He was hurt, but refused to be denied his honors after carrying the team for so many years. We are going to REMEMBER THE BIG HURT!!
I do not dislike Sammy, but where are the Championships? Mr Ernie Banks, Mr Billy Williams are HOFers, but if the Cubbies had won a championship or two during their playing time, Ron Santo might be in the Hall of Fame right now. I don't know, but it is a possibility.
later Southsider
Posted by: Douglas | June 29, 2007 07:04 PM
Dear Keep Slugging Big Hurt!!,
Yes, it is me, Julie B., your former math tutor. All the men just became insanely jealous of you. I remember you very well, as a matter of fact. You were a feisty SOB back then too, but you're point is well taken. If you don't believe Sammy has the numbers to put him in the Hall, that's fine, that's your opinion. I happen to disagree with you. You also don't have to sell me on Frank. I've always been a fan of his, and I've never suspected him of enhancing his career artificially. Sammy, more than likely, has used steroids, as have so many others we can't even imagine. But I don't know for sure, and neither do you. My point is that all we have - until we have solid proof substantiating all the suspicion, not circumstantial evidence, are the stats. I still think the accomplishment of hitting 600 home runs should be enough to get a guy in the Hall. You sure I gave you an A?
Oh - and thanks for the props, Keith L-S.
Posted by: Julie B. | June 30, 2007 11:25 AM
To Roman: Your comment on one posting is very unfortunate and Fox-esque. "There's no proof Sammy did, and there's no proof Frank didn't." By saying that there's no proof Frank didn't, you are defaming the one sure clean baseball player of that generation. Never a question about it. His body didn't go fron 180lbs to 240lbs; and his performance didn't explode like Sosa's did. I suggest you revise you comment, limiting it to Sosa and leave Frank out of the conversation.
Roman responds: The Fox-esque shot hurt - badly. I don't think Frank did anything. I saw him in the locker room and he's huge, but for some reason it just struck me as natural mass. Who knows, I'm not a doctor. And neither are you. Unless you're a friend of Frank's who's been with him 24/7, you don't know either. Some people think Thome's cheated, others thing Clemens has. You just can't tell. Look at the guys who have gotten caught. Some of them are scrawny shortstops. It's impossible to tell. Which is why I guess you just an asterisk over the whole era and vote on stats.
Posted by: Big Steve | June 30, 2007 12:02 PM
I'm a lifetime Cub fan, who was in awe of Frank Thomas. He should be in the hall, case closed.
Posted by: Rick | June 30, 2007 03:09 PM
BTW - Roman, I guess I'll just have to defer to you regarding what happened to Joe Jackson. But if he wasn't caught doing anything, then why was he banned from baseball? He'd be in the the Hall too, if only........
Posted by: Julie B. | July 1, 2007 08:07 AM
WOW...If you really want some perspective on your boy Sammy, you should really read the up-close books on Barry Bonds. To date, the only legal proceedings Bonds has started is suing the authors of "Game of Shadows" for illegally obtaining grand jury testimony - NOT for any of the accusations contained in the book.
While Bonds was a hall of famer before roids, you can actually blame Sammy and McGuire on Bonds' roid use in the late 90s. Bonds saw these freaks guys hitting home runs in 1998 and decided he should play the same game.
(from Game of Shadows)
"Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on"
What a grand game baseball is!
Posted by: Jeffrey | July 2, 2007 08:37 AM
Douglas my friend you are right. The trully great ones are WINNERS. But there are times when what you do effects the History of the Sport. And Sammy and Mac shattered that home run record at a time when baseball was on very shaky leggs. People who were disgusted with the strike, Pete Rose and greedy owners were made to remember Ruth and Maris for a summer. I remember clearly because while Sammy was on the Northside clubbin away, Big-Frank was on the Southside with Black Jack McDowell and the Southside Hitmen making fireworks to sparse crowds and diehard fans!!!! We are too soon to forget. And I trully thought the Sox would NEVER forget Frank.
We like our stars perfect, but I am smart enough to know there is only one perfect person - ever to walk the planet.
Posted by: Keith-Lifetime Southsider | July 2, 2007 08:46 AM
I was born in Chicago on the North side and grew up on the South side. I have always been a Sox fan and have rooted for the Cubs as well but I have a problem with Sammy and Frank. One thinks that he is God's gift to baseball and the other is nothing but a cry baby. I don't care if Frank gets in the hall but as long as there is some doubt as to if Sammy took drugs, he shouldn't be considered for the Hall. Bonds should not be even be considered for the hall or should never be considered breaking Hank Aaron's record
Posted by: Mike | July 2, 2007 03:17 PM
There isn't a person in any sport who doesn't have an ego. Some people are just better covering it up. And anyone who has had to deal with some of the media in this city should get a medal because any way the wind blows brings on a new opinion. As far as I can see,I'm not sure which is a crybaby or who is the God's gift. They both have exhibited that trait along with a bunch of other players who have played in Chicago. It should be what you did on the field and not how you act that got you in the hall. If it did,why are some womanizers and drunks in the the hall? Are they a good example for the league?
Posted by: William R. Donald | July 2, 2007 07:37 PM
yeah...he hit all them homer's WITH his baby fat. Did he get Baby Huehyroids? You know, I heard he was pretty good friends with Mark Mcguire and Jose Canseco. They were 'priming' him to be a member of the 'A's'...if you know what I mean. It just took him longer to get to Oakland,and to hit a meaningless 500 homeruns.
Maybe they should make him wait just as long to join the hall of fame. I'll probably be dead. Then, you would get no argument from me.
Posted by: stuckinwisconsin | July 2, 2007 10:26 PM
Frank should be in.
He risked aggravating his knee injury by flying to Washington to testify on steroid use, and he didn't complain, because he wanted everyone to know he has nothing to hide. I don't think anyone in baseball suspects Frank, and yet everyone suspects McGuire, Bonds, and Sosa. There's probably a reason for this.
The press and fans in Chicago berated him for all kinds of ridiculous things, including that he wasn't enough of a leader, whatever that means. Nonetheless, he stayed loyal to the very end, and who can blame him for being bitter when he was dumped? The Sox haven't been the same since he was canned, and did anyone notice his late season surge last year, where he punished the Sox severely and helped Oakland make the playoffs? Even old and hobbled he put up better numbers than Thome for the last month of the season. The Sox would have gotten to the playoffs if they had kept him.
Frank has also been a favorite target for pitchers. During the World Championship year he was the worst victim of intentional beanings I have ever seen - it almost looked like pitchers from all different teams were conspiring to injure him - and he still managed to hit a bunch of home runs in limited playing time. Did Thomas' hitting give the Sox just enough victories to make the playoffs? Well, it sure didn't hurt.
Yeah, Thomas likes to brag, but he always backs it up, so who cares?
Finally, he was robbed of his chance for a triple crown and possible postseason playing time when that odious strike occured. Baseball shouldn't rob him again.
Posted by: John S | July 2, 2007 11:25 PM
The records in baseball are so ridiculous these days that I can't believe anyone takes them seriously.
Steroids are just one thing.
What else makes it easier to hit home runs than it was for Babe Ruth?
Let's see, we have smaller ballparks with less foul territory. The ball is livelier, and I don't think they discarded every ball that was hit or touched the ground in the Babe's day. The bats are different. The league has expanded. MORE GAMES ARE PLAYED IN A SEASON. Pitchers don't throw at hitters as often.
If Ruth were in his prime and playing baseball today he would probably hit 90 home runs in one year. Too bad there aren't records of how many times he hit the ball to the warning track when those warning tracks were ten to thirty feet farther from the plate than they are now, or how many times he was out on pop flies that were in foul ground that is now occupied by stands.
Ruth trumps Maris because Maris needed the extra games afforded to him by an extended season to break Ruth's record (he wouldn't have if they had played the same number of games). Also, the league was expanded the year Maris hit those home runs. Maris trumps Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, etc. for the reasons I've already gone into.
So Ruth had the greatest power year ever, if not the numbers, and Aaron had the best power-hitting career of all time - Bonds will break the record, but that will be meaningless.
It's so sad that both the single season and career home run records wil be held by a steroid freak. After that, I'll really cheer for someone to break them, even if they are historically irrelevant.
Posted by: John S | July 2, 2007 11:54 PM
John S...good points. Two you missed is lowering the pitchers mounds and expansion.
In the days of Koufax and Gibson, they were throwing downhill! That's why it wasn't unusual to see team batting averages in the 1960's of .220. I can't remember the year they changed (early 70s ?) but that has made a huge difference.
Expansion means that there are probably 20-30 pitchers who have no business pitching in the majors. Look at the rosters around the league or even the Cubs/Sox...those pitchers at the end are BAD.
Posted by: Jeffrey | July 3, 2007 07:20 AM