Jim DeRogatis

Whew, that article was a mouthful, but not in the worst sense. Personally, I enjoyed the movie, and did think it was one of the best of the year. Still, that doesn't mean I don't agree with a few points (or maybe the main point).

The biggest one that sticks out is definitely Juno being a "punk-rocker," when none of it is heard in the movie or is even played while she is playing or singing in the movie. There is a scene where she introduces Mark to "her music," and she chooses Mott the Hoople's version of "All the Young Dudes." Even though she makes a note of it, it still does not make her look like a "punk-rocker" in any way.

I actually do enjoy the soundtrack though, and I think it fits the movie well. Kimya Dawson's songs, in particular, epitomize Juno in a lot of ways. Since they have a child-like quality to them, it shows how young Juno is to be dealing with situations like that. She is a young, naive person dealing with issues far beyond her capacity, in her own child-like way, and the songs sound like Dawson is doing the same thing. And, regardless of what you think the message should be, the Moldy Peaches song Juno and Pauly sing at the end kind of tries to tie up the fact that they are still kids, no matter what they had to go through.

As for the abortion issue (not saying I am either way), and how the characters and situation would compare to real life, well, that's an entirely different debate...

I couldn't agree more.

I loved this movie. I do however agree with some of what you wrote. Except after finishing it the only comment I can think of is: Lighten up, it's just a movie.

Eric commented on the "introduction" of "All the Young Dudes" When that scene came on all I could think was what muscian, what music fan has not heard All thwe Young Dudes. I wonder what was next on her cd Stairway to Heaven? Free Bird? Crossroads? Certainly not the Igyy she was touting throughout the movie.

Claiming that something is "just" a movie or "just" an album minimizes the importance of art in our lives, and as a critic who still believes these things matter, I'm never willing to do that. But beyond that, S., "Juno" was not simply another movie released in 2007; according to many critics, it was the best movie of the year! Check out the flowing geysers of gushing praise on Metacritic.

Jim, my "it's just a movie comment comes from the frame of mind of how I view movies, which might be different from how you view movies. I view them as entertainment to get lost in for a couple of hours. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have to agree with every word Jim writes. I walked in with high expections. I walked out never wanting to hear an accoustic guitar ever again.

Could you maybe add a spoiler warning toward the bottom so you don't ruin the last quarter of the movie for someone?

Terrific post. As someone who thought that "Crash" was pure bunk a few years back, I completely sympathize with your confusion over its renowned praise.

I do, however, think you're wrong (which is great--this is why I love art). I have many rebuttals, but I'll only write the following, regarding your dismay at Juno's dialogue: We really need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that we know how characters in movies and plays are supposed to talk. We don't, movies and plays aren't real. In fact, they don't try to be real. Life isn't narrative, movies and plays are. The dialogue spoken by Ellen Page while playing Juno isn't written to suggest a real teenager. It's written to suggest Juno, who isn't a real person, but is rather an illusion of someone who is witty, precocious, outcast and (yes) perhaps a touch insincere.

The point of dialogue is not to sound like actual life, but rather to help tell a story. We should accept the words of the characters in drama movies or plays in the same way that we accept people randomly bursting into song in musicals. It's the world that the writer has created.

Thank god I'm not the only one who didn't think this film was the greatest thing ever made. I'd didn't dislike it as much as you did Jim, but I do agree about the dialogue not sounding like anything any 16 year old would ever say.

I know a movie isn't real life, and therefore the dialog doesn't have to be absolutely accurate either, Nick. But almost all of the reviewers who loved the film made a point of praising the dialog for exactly that reason -- how "real" it sounded! I was disagreeing with them.

Nick goes on to make several other points in his blog, The Alice Variations. I don't agree with him, and he doesn't agree with me. But it's certainly a fun discussion!

As for "Juno" not being a movie about youthful rebellion, well, isn't the central character's desire to live by her own rules, to free herself from the polite expectations of society and to avoid being a cliche the heart and soul who of she is? What are those things if not youthful rebellion?

By the way, I don't necessarily think youthful rebellion is limited to the young: I know some 70-year-olds who can raise more hell than many twenty-somethings. The central tenet of the Vorticists, a pre-World War I British art movement whose philosophy I rather admire, was that the purpose of all art is to celebrate violent structures of adolescent clarity -- which I interpret as "live with the lust for life of a teenager, regardless of your age."

I don't know why I still read your columns. I guess because I love music and I like to read as much as possible about it. Your columns, however, increasingly come off as the views of an old and bitter music critic who's views on music are repeated comments about music not being as good since you were in high school.

Why do you love music? The reason I ask is because everything The Moldy Peaches and Kimya Dawson do and have done is everything that is wonderful about music. It isn't thoughtless, overly produced garbage without heart or any real meaning. It is the real deal. It is very heartfelt, sometimes tongue in cheek, sometimes shy, sometime bold, and always intelligent and beautiful.

Attacking Kimya Dawson because she's 35, and placing a sample of her lyrics out of context is an example of why I have never liked your column. You "hate, hate, hate" (Check it out. I took a quote from your column and took it out of context.), and every word comes across as negative, narrow minded, and as the forum for an individual who severely lacks imagination. You wish music still sounded like when you were in high school, and Kimya makes music that high school students can relate to, as well as others. It's ironic.

It seems you identify with the Jason Bateman character quite a bit. It's kind of odd considering he was the least likable character in the movie, and came off as a bit of a loser.

Jim,

Couple points: I am not sure where you are getting this from but I think that the charm of Juno is that she isn't listening to what kids today are listening to. In fact, I think that she sets herself apart from the crowd.

I think you are treading on some very thin ice by making the assumption that all "Self-Empowered" and "Intelligent" females would use a condom or protection. In another way, its like saying that the people that do have sex are not Self-Empowered and not intelligent, or that only stupid people would make mistakes like this. In fact, that might be the entire idea of being punk is that you are intelligent but there is a certain defiant nature. Getting a grasp of her relationship with her parents you see early on that her parents are aware that she is intelligent but at the same time understand that there is a certain level of defiance in her. Her parents were expecting the worst when she told them of her pregnancy. This is not your normal child and you can tell she has probably been called into the principals office on more than one occasion.

I think her parents offer a level of questioning but they also "Let Juno be Juno". They understand her character and there is not going to be any changing that.

What was so powerful for me was that a teenager such as Juno is going against the grain and choosing life over death which is exactly the Punk Ethos in my opinion.

As a liberal and a democrat, I think that we have gone on way too long with the belief that being "Anti-Abortion" means that you are "Anti-Feminist" and that the act of childbirth is such a beautiful thing. We have created a message that if you are a teenager and single and you get pregnant that you have "Get Rid" or "Hide It". Juno on the other hand pretty much rubs it in everyones face which I think would be the punk thing to do. I love that. It is refreshing to see someone stand up and make a choice.

The only thing that I would agree with you on is that there was a scene with the female healthcare worker, her stepmother and her that was a bit contrived.

I do not think that Punk needs to be something that sounds like the Sex Pistols. I find the Moldy Peaches very punk because their sound is very much against anything mainstream or traditional and their initial release is still very refreshing both sonically and lyrically. I think punk is the idea that you are thinking outside the norm and thought that this is exactly what this movie is about.

Our society still has a problem with single women wanting to give their children up for adoption. We are supposed to "Get Rid" of the mistake. Juno was very punk indeed.

I am not sure what your guidelines for punk are Jim, but I really think they need to be reexamined.

Hi. I don't care about your opinion of the movie or my music. there are plenty of things I like that other people hate and plenty of things that people are crazy about that I think are painfully annoying, so whatever.

I do want to comment on the lyric you quoted as glib and insincere. I actually read every single email and myspace message and livejournal comment I get myself. I have no staff checking stuff for me. I personally write back to every kid in crisis that I hear from. I care a lot about people. I am in the process of setting up a support forum for people in crisis. I have personally driven to a fans home and driven her to a rehabilitation center when she emailed me asking for help. I can't control how people perceive my intent, but I must try to clear up misconceptions about something I take so seriously.

Maybe you should read about why...
http://users.livejournal.com/kimya_dawson_/275949.html

Eric: When you write that "I think you are treading on some very thin ice by making the assumption that all 'Self-Empowered' and 'Intelligent' females would use a condom or protection," I suppose that, yes, I AM SAYING THAT -- that is, unless this smart and self-empowered girl has made a conscious decision to get pregnant. Is that what Juno did? Because if so, it seals my argument that she seems to view pregnancy as the ultimate "punk/cool/outsider/rebel" status symbol. A twisted message if ever there was one!

Kimya: It is admirable that you read and respond to your correspondents; so do I. I am not saying your individual actions are glib or insincere -- I have no way of knowing and that isn't what I'm writing about. I maintain, however, that those are two traits I have always heard in your music, as manifested by the lo-fi amateurism and celebration of the juvenile/infantile, going back to the Moldy Peaches. But that's just my opinion -- and hey, I didn't like Jonathan Richman after he plugged in and followed the same route/adopted the same attitude, either.

Jim,

The way that I see Juno is that her character has a high level of stubbornness that can be prone to be mislead by not always looking at the consequences of her actions. Intelligent people can make bad choices. Maybe this hasn't happened to you but I am well aware of many decisions I have made that were bad and I did have to think to myself, "How did I get myself into this predicament?".

Maybe that is what makes us humans. We defy logic.

Jim:
A couple of points.
#1- The quote that you took from the song "Loose Lips," out of context, may come across a tad glib. In the context of the song, though, it comes across as a desperate appeal to a loved one. It doesn't at all come across as insincere.

#2- Although I am not happy with the state of the world right now, the blatant consumerism that seems to be rampant among the next generation, I have to challenge your statement: "Silly old Gen X’er; doesn’t he know Generation Y has rejected the very notion of 'selling out' in the mad rush to buy iPhones, Uggs and Wii consoles?"
In truth, it seems to me that it is not the fault of "Generation Y" that this is the case.. It is indeed the Gen Xer's that were so obsessed with capitalism that they found a way to make the next generation little more than a commodity to be bought and sold. They never needed bother with the notion of selling out because by the time they got to the age of reason, they had already been sold. Thanks, Gen X.

Right on brother.

It is indeed the Gen Xer's that were so obsessed with capitalism that they found a way to make the next generation little more than a commodity to be bought and sold. They never needed bother with the notion of selling out because by the time they got to the age of reason, they had already been sold. Thanks, Gen X.

I'm thinking you may be confused with those who are actually in power right now and they are not Gen X...we're getting there, just not fully in control yet. If anything, we're gonna sell out Gen Z. Plus - how can a generation of slackers be obsessed with capitalism?

Jim is right: "Juno" was crap from the very first scenes. First of all, no "precocious" youth would be caught dead drinking Sunny Dee. Second, how many young women go around performing pregnancy tests in front of a convenience store clerk? Also, how many 16-year-olds know who Soupy Sales is? Every line out of Juno's mouth was overwritten. You could practically see a Teleprompter in every scene. Nobody talks like that. The music angle, I couldn't care less about. The dialogue and the story were just garbage.
I know Roger Ebert has been ill, but in recent years I've been losing interest in his reviews.

Jim I think you are wrong about this line "...unless this smart and self-empowered girl has made a conscious decision to get pregnant..." In one instance you are not liking the movie because Juno does not talk like a 16 year old and does not listen to music a 16 year old would listen to. Then you don't like it when she acts like a 16 year old and does not use BC. I can easily see her mindset as being typical of a 16 year old thinking it's only one time, or it can't happen to me. Most 16 year olds think they are indestructible. She is somewhat cocky and is totally stunned when she finds out that she is pregnant. So her mindset may very well have been that of an indestructible 16 year old.

But setting all the previous discussion aside I have to say that if Juno talked like a typical 16 year old, listen to the typical music a 16 year old would listen to and did everything a typical 16 year old would do, then the movie would have been a huge bore and this discussion would never be taking place. Face it she is not supposed to be a typical 16 year old at all.

Jim,

I completely disagree. I usually disagree with what you say, which is why I now rarely read your column . I read the blog yesterday because I was planning on going to see Juno last night and happened to see that you wrote about it. I felt compelled to write then, but decided it would be smart to wait until I actually watched the film before saying your review was bunk. It wasn't so much the review, but your inane assumptions that were ridiculous and that I could have commented on immediately.

So boring.

I could care less about the soundtrack, really, though I think it fit the movie just fine. Do I think the movie was punk-rock? Well, no. But then punk-rock is gone. Punk happened when it wasn't expected. That's the point - it just happend. If you have to say if something is punk rock, should be punk rock or that punk rock is needed, it really isn't punk rock period. That is a bygone era. Valid and important, but bygone.

Looking at the music industry today, I think the soundtrack and what Juno, the film and the character, represented was accurate. The type of film that Juno is fit the type of music that is played throughout and the type of musician that plays that music. No, they're not punk rock, but so what.

As for the other music mentioned - why do you try and categorize what Juno should or shouldn't listen to if you do appreciate music so much? That is probably what I hate about your writing more than anything, you so often try and categorize the type of music and the type of people that should listen to it. It's music, it's there for everyone and open to anyone. The problem with the industry is that there is too much categorizing. Why make it exclusive?

As for believability, in high school, I knew kids, not one, but a few, who talked like Juno. MOre who talked like Juno than Darlene or Daria. I knew kids who acted like Juno. I knew a family, who would have reacted like Juno's. They weren't common, but they do/did exist.

As for your comment about a girl as smart as Juno not using birth control, well, that is a stupid comment. Smart people do illogical things. I did. And I have a daughter. Am I stupid? No. Am I smart? Yes. And I'm well into adulthood, not a confused teenager. Juno was a little messed in the head, but either way - it happens. And it's far from unfathomable.

Get outside the pen.

just to correct you Jim, you said:

"Or, as Juno says, “Honest to blog!”"

Juno doesn't say that, her friend Leah does...

this can't be stressed enough:

"But setting all the previous discussion aside I have to say that if Juno talked like a typical 16 year old, listen to the typical music a 16 year old would listen to and did everything a typical 16 year old would do, then the movie would have been a huge bore and this discussion would never be taking place. Face it she is not supposed to be a typical 16 year old at all."

if you want realism, watch a documentary. Juno is a comedy ala Napolean Dynamite's quirky style, either you get it and find it funny or you don't, but just because you apparently don't, that shouldn't mean those of us who do have some sort of inferior intellect or taste.

as Sly Stone sang "different strokes for different folks"

I read the entire article in the paper itself. I strongly object to pro-lifers being labled as "anti-woman". This is insulting, disrespectful, and could not be further from the truth. Being passionate about the rights of the unborn child d