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As one parent said to me this year, it's all about marketing.
And yes, the world is all about marketing - as is the IHSA Tournament.
If you were to believe the scoreboard at North Central College this weekend, you would believe the best high school soccer is played there for the IHSA Finals. I turned to one reporter and one coach on Saturday and said, "How do they say that?"
It's not.
Coaches know it, players know it, common sense parents know and other members of the media know. We talk about it all the time, have for years actually. As I help with the ESPNRISE.com rankings each week, we talk about it. The problem is some people are still living in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s when they think the IHSA Tournament is the best.
And the time has finally come to bust that marketing bubble.
Before you get all worked up, sit back and clear your head and think about this for a second.
Is a team that wins the Best of West the best team in the Chicagoland area at that time? For many years that was the case, but it's not any longer.
Is a team that wins the Barrington Tournament the best team in the Chicagoland area at that time? If that was the case, people would've thought Lake Zurich was ranked too high after beginning this season ranked No. 2 and struggling at Barrington.
Is a team that wins the Pepsi Showdown the best team in the Chicagoland area at that time? While the tournament seeds its bracket, it doesn't have every team.
Is a team that wins the IHSA Tournament the best team in Illinois? No, because as the IHSA has said it's a geographic-based tournament. It wants to have teams from every area of the state represented - not the best teams. It does use the word state champion, and that's where many have bought into the belief that it decides who the best is.
It's called marketing.
Teams that win the IHSA Tournament are very good teams in most cases, and many times they also are a team that had a little luck. It doesn't take anything away from a team winning that tournament, but it doesn't decide who's the best in soccer.
Are you telling me the best teams were in Naperville the past two weekends? There were some of the best, but not all of them were. I know they weren't, even though all three teams that won IHSA titles were in the Pepsi Showdown this year.
If you really believe that, put the IHSA marketing pop down that you are drinking. Or better yet, maybe you should watch ABC's remake of the show 'V' on Tuesday night to see what is being done to you.
Despite living in the 21st century, the IHSA Tournament is still not seeded and still ran under the same concept as it was when it was first created three decades ago. Why is that?
Because you accept it.
So let's give everyone a piece of the pie to make everyone happy. It's the AYSO concept. Why do you think the Public League received an automatic bid for so many years? How messed up was that looking back on it now if this tournament is supposed to stand for deciding who the best is?
But when you are the largest school district in the state, you pay a lot of dues to the IHSA, and the IHSA wants to keep you happy.
Pay to play for years in the IHSA? You tell me.
Soccer and its community have begged for respect. But when it comes to this tournament, it's allowed the folks at Pee-Wee Playhouse to treat it just like everything else in between watching YouTube videos. Football didn't put up with money-ball Marty Hickman. They demanded changes, pushed them, jammed them and then finally received them.
I continue to ask the soccer community this - why can't the tournament be seeded out and why isn't there someone on staff with some soccer background? The IHSA was able to send Providence on a four-hour bus ride, so why can't teams travel a little (within common sense) to make it a true seeded tournament?
Are you telling me Barrington coach Scott Steib wouldn't like to play against some of the teams in the south suburbs this year instead of being stuck in his tough sectional? Couldn't Naperville North travel to a Warren or play in the St. Rita Sectional this fall? The IHSA sent Hinsdale Central to the DeLaSalle Regional this year, so why can't this be done.
I've had Downstate coaches email recently and tell me I'm right on hitting this subject. They have travel issues, too, but they are willing to travel to make this tournament what it can and should be - a true state tournament.
I listened to coaches for years talk about how the IHSA Tournament wasn't run right. Where do you think I came up with the idea of the Pepsi Showdown? I looked the NCAA Tournament, listened to the coaches, players and parents and was willing to create and battle with some athletic directors to show it can be done.
The IHSA doesn't care if its tournament is better - it doesn't. You believe it decides the best, but they really don't care what you think. The tournament is still going to go on every year. The more classes they have equals the more kids involved, and that's what the sponsors like to hear.
Welcome to Marty Hickman money ball. There's really nothing wrong with that, because you accept it.
In the end, until you stand up and demand for something better, it will never change. And right now, as I've said time and time again, the Illinois High School Soccer Coaches Association needs to rally together. But it just continues to accept it, just as it continues to waste time listening to IHSA assistant director Beth Sauser ramble the same speech each year.
And until it changes, the IHSA Tournament does not decide final rankings because it's just another tournament - just like the Best of the West, Barrington, Glenbrook South, Peoria, Gateway Classic and the Pepsi Showdown. It will always be a goal of teams to win the IHSA Tourament, just as it is to win conference, beat a rival, win another tournament or win 20 games.
But just because you win a tournament, it doesn't decide who is the best team that season.
- Joe Trost
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How do you 'seed' it out? Do you drop the 3-18 teams or include them? Is it like football where team records counts and playoff points are accumulated? Does a team like Gibault even make it to the playoffs with a sub .500 record and reach the finals? I am curious how you would do this???
You also forgot to mention that because it is the last tournament of the year it holds more value. A loss that ends your season? That means a heckuva lot to coaches, players and parents. What if the pepsi was the last tourney of the year and the IHSA was held when the pepsi was?
Who are your final 4 teams???? Wheaton S, NV, LT, and LZ. If that happened in the final 4 would that be "ok" then? NV beats WWS and LT beats LZ. Final would be NV and LT. LT wins. Does LT get to be "Joe's #1". LT did all that and you still didn't put them #1. Just because LT beat those teams at different times (not in the final 4)does not change that fact that they would have won the entire thing. I feel you are wrong this time....
It's still the IHSA STATE title Joe and sorry it's still a bigger tournament to win for High School kids than the Pepsi.
Poll the kids from LT.........
Let's just tell the south suburbs to stop playing soccer and have the kids play some other sport. How about badminton or something? Soccer is so horrible down there that they don't even deserve to play it.
Joe....
Joe Soccer asked a question and personally I think it deserves an answer. But personally I don't have a great answer. If you were to "Seed" all the high schools in the state and then have #1 play #64,#2 play #63, etc., etc., you would end up having many, many "long trip" games being played where one school would have to travel a number of hours to a game on a school night. Yes , now there are a few of those games played but they generally are kept to a minimum.
Hey, but Joe Trost doesn't really care if the students waste countless hours on busses traveling around on school nights or school districts waste a buch more money on all those extra bus trips. He just wants to make sure his #1 and # 2 teams play in the finals at North Central every year so he can say that there is "good soccer" being played there.
But excuse me Joe.... please feel free to outline the details of your " playoff plan" that doesn't waste students time and taxpayers money.... that's what "Joe Soccer" was asking about and what I would like to know too.
I total agree with you on the subject. It needs to change but if you contact the IHSA they just ingore you so why bother. someone needs to run the show that knows what is going on. And as like always soccer takes a back seat to other sports.
Joe,
I definitely respect your ideas and decisions and you are absolutely right that there are major flaws in the way the IHSA does it tournament, but I think you are missing a major point. What is every schools ultimate, final goal? During the season it might be to win conference or the Pepsi or the Best of the West, but when it comes down to it, all anyone really worries about is winning state. That is the focus from day 1 of camp or tryouts for most schools. It is the culminating tournament that everyone strives for and if you come short you do not deserve the right to be named #1. Neuqua and Lyons both came out of their sectional, same as a team would in the NCAA regionals and Lyons came out on top. They won when it really mattered. Most schools build throughout the year to be prepared and ready for the IHSA tournament. Neuqua peaked early, while Lyons continued to learn from mistakes and grow stronger and there is something to be said for that. It is not about the best always being at the finals, look at all the cinderella teams that make it to the final four in NCAA basketball. They are not the best, but the better team at the time when it counts. Neuqua deserves to be proud of their great year, but Lyons is the best in the state, with the trophy in hand. Joe, I think you do a tremendous amount for the game, right or wrong, because you get people thinking and talking about soccer, so thanks to all your thoughts, no matter how controversial they may be.
I am currently working with a couple high school coaches, college coaches, club coaches and a tournament company to look at this. One reason why is because Pepsi is expanding from 32 teams to 64, but also for this subject to show how this can be done for the IHSA. If they won't do it, I'll do it.
Its all about the power of marketing....right Joe? The marketing campaign this year was on NV and no one else. Started the season as #1 and finished #1 regardless. Interesting though that LT ranked #17 by ESPN and NV falls to #18. Joe, didnt you say you helped put the ESPN rankings together?
I'm not going to lie, this is actually pretty classic and we're laughing about it right now. One day, I'm too much Lyons and that's because the Pepsi Showdown is held there. Then I'm all Lyons, because I say a game shouldn't be held at Hinsdale Central. Then I'm against Lyons and pro Neuqua Valley, because a team that beat a team twice during the year and lost once is ranked ahead of them mainly because they finished with one loss to a team they beat twice. But that's why the soccer community is what it is - in it's own little world.
if the state tournament participants were determined the way you do your rankings - I am pretty sure that you would fail to even CONSIDER a team that was not from the 'burbs - and yes I hate to break it to you but Illinois borders do go south of I-80 and west of the Marengo toll plaza - shocking I know
Clue alert - CHICAGO Sun-Times rankings. C-H-I-C-A-G-O
Here we go:
1. 3 classes are not the problem, look at football. Have 3 classes but divide the ihsa soccer schools evenly. This would put stronger teams in 2 and 1A. 1A: 0-1000, 2A:1000- 2000, 3A: 2000-. Just like football wait until the final day to shift teams that meet the required record, playoff-points.
2. Teams should play 21 games. No more, no less. All tournaments have to provide the same amount of games for all teams involved in order for teams to meet this requirement. This means the Pepsi also, which really is not too hard. All of the teams that don't make the final would need an extra game. These could be college showcases. Teams these days play too many games. Everyone has to play this amount to be play-off eligible.
3. Teams must be a minimum of 11-10 to qualify for the play-offs. Then points come into play based on the won-loss records of the teams you played. 64 teams for each class will qualify.
4. Seed the teams into 4 super sectionals. Seed the teams 1-64. After the seeding place the teams them into four super sectionals where the top 4 seeds would be the #1s. Now every 4 teams are the same number 2,3,4... The same number cannot be in the same sectional but you can place them geographically when possible. Worst case scenario the #1 ranked teams in the class could also have the #5, 9, 13, and 17 in its sectional but every sectional will have 5 of the top 20 teams of its class in its super sectional .Fair enough.
5. Play all semi-final regional games on a Thursday or Friday and the regional final game on a Saturday or Sunday of that same weekend based on the two day difference. Thurs/Sat for teams close to each other and Fri/Sun for teams of greater distance. Let the individual schools AD's decide. Follow this formula for the sectional semis and finals as well. The super sectional will be on a Tuesday. Which means only one game of the entire play-offs will be played on a school night.
6. This means the whole state tournament would still take only 3 weekends. That gives you a whole week of practice and then plays two games. An alternative would be to play games on Fri/Sat or Sat /Sun for the whole state. HS kids can play 2 games in two days they do it during a season, tournaments and club.
7. All games should be played on turf and nearby schools should cooperate to allow other schools to practice on their turf.
What would joe's motivation be with being anti-LT? They were runner's up in the pepsi AND hosted about 17 games at their complex. Why would he purposely try to piss them off? Makes no sense. Maybe he genuinely thinks NV was the better team since he was able to see both LT and NV play multiple times throughout the season. Either way, this is such a dead topic. Let's move on to next year...
To Give a Guy a Break - Thank you. While it is part of the gig, I would hope people would look and have respect knowing that I'm not going to be bias just because something is hosted at one site or another. I always separate the two. As I've said 101 times, just because Neuqua finished No. 1 doesn't take away anything any other team did this year. And yes, onto the next subject.
PK, that is a nice plan but looking back on history, won't work or at a minimum, provides a lot of disincentive for teams to play better teams during the season as they all try to get to 11-10.
My case in point from my first post, according to that plan, Gibault was 6-14 entering the playoffs would not qualify under this scenario but as it turns out, they beat a few 20+ win teams quite handily on their way to 2nd place.
Now if they have to play a ‘softer’ schedule to qualify for the state tournament, do you really think that is in the best interest of getting better? It would just open a huge can of worms for many teams.
Note, it is also why they have 8 classes in football, can’t have 3 in soccer with it being 1-1000, 1001-2001 and 2000+ as the schools near the top of the limits have a decided advantage.
That is why I am interested to see, sincerely, what Joe Trost will come up with. Outside of throwing everyone in a pot, like basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball etc and seeing who comes out, along with upsets, poor officiating and the like, there isn’t going to be ANY system that will satisfy all, no way no how.
But, I am curious to see what is up.......
Everything you wrote is true. But I think the key is to having an overall system your sport agrees with at the start of what should be a true state tournament. The format and people being lazy (doing the same thing year after year) is what has most coaches and adminstrators unhappy with the folks at Marty Hickman's Pee-Wee's Playhouse.
Outside of football, where schools need to qualify, is there any other sport where "true" seeding is accomplished? If not, is this a soccer-only debate? For instance, do people question the fact that New Trier and Joliet Catholic are the 4A and 3A state champs in baseball, respectively? Is anyone questioning the legitimacy of Loyola's state championship in girls softball or Whitney Young's boys' basketball state championship?
As the director of the Gateway City Soccer Classic, Joe and I have many of the same thoughts but offer a different product. I choose to have teams from around the country to give a better gauge of the national picture. The Pepsi tourney is more localized, and has the best of the best in the chicago area. No matter what tournament you run, you can never guarantee that the best team will win. My issue is that in many cases, the best teams are always lumped in together. At least the majority of the Chicago area schools have the opportunity to advance out of a regional based on a 1-16 seeding. There is no doubt that Quincy High, where I coach, was one of the best teams in the State of Illinois (Ask McHenry Coach Tony Caruso if you don't believe me.) We were knocked off in a regional final by Edwardsville on a PK with 1:40 left in regulation after outshooting them 14-6 and 10-3 in corners. We were in a 4 team regional with Edwardsville, Quincy, Granite City, and Alton. In the last 2 years, Quincy is 35-7-2 and has not won a regional. Edwardsville has represented our area both years. The other regional in our area is Collinsville, O'Fallon, Belleville East and West. In 2008, East Moline won a regional and lost to Edwardsville in the sectional. We beat East Moline that year 5-1. In class 2, Springfield High, Chatham, and Springfield SHG are all in the same regional of 4 teams. Springfield High won this year and advance to a sectional semi against Springfield SE and won 5-0. Again, how is this fair?
Why should the southern schools have to be different than those up North. Quincy has traveled 2 hrs and 45 minutes both years for reional games. We are a victom of location obviously. I propose having a sectional in Springfield and all of the teams would have roughly the same travel distance. Our regional this year was in Granite City. When rain forced our game to be moved, it was moved from Natural grass in Granite to Turf in SIU-Edwardsville. We were the number 1 seed and had to play Edwardsville in Edwardsville on a turf field. Edwardsville high has turf and trains on this every day. Quincy does not. None of that is really fair in my eyes either. BTW, neither the travel or the turf were a reason we lost that game, but just making a point about it.