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When the girl and I were at Wembley Stadium last month to watch the England National Team play its final World Cup qualifier, I thought about this again - does the IHSA really need three classes or is it just for extra revenue?
Prior to last Friday, if I was asked this question I would've said no...only two classes are needed. But after watching Friday's Class 1A semifinals between four private schools, which were competitive and the best Class 1A semifinals in recent years, I can see where three classes make sense.
When you look at it, Class 1A is giving most teams, who never have a shot to win the IHSA tournament, a chance to extend their seasons. In Class 2A and 3A, you are still getting good teams (not the best teams) to the quarters and semifinals - just as if this was the old Class A and AA.
So should there be three classes? I don't know.
St. Viator (2A) coach Mike Taylor thinks there should be two classes.
Gibault (1A) coach Jim Corsi thinks there should be one class.
What do you think?
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There is no way that 1A teams can compete with 3A teams. 2A teams are at a huge disadvantage also when they play some of the really big schools with 6 or 7 thousand kids. While I believe there are more than a few 2A teams that could compete with the 3A schools, most couldn't. Unfortunately, 1A and 2A schools get little respect compared to their big 3A brothers just because of the size difference. This happens even if the big powerhouse 3A teams play nobody but their conference foes or local teams. It sure would be nice to see Neuqua Valley or Lyons play outside their local area to see how they stackup with good teams from around the region. Until this happens they are living on big school hype and nothing else.
Three classes maybe ok, but do the private schools really need to live with the multiplier for soccer that was put into place to balance football dominance?
As a coach at a 3A school, I personally don't see what the problem is with having 3 classes. I don't think having 3 classes "waters down" the accomplishments, if anything, it increases the accomplishments.
Let's be honest, in Class A there were two non-traditional powerhouses in the final four (Keith Country Day and Peoria Christian). Does it really hurt the quality of soccer in the state that they earned a trophy?
Also, when you say not the best teams are reaching the quarters and semi finals, is that because of the way the IHSA has set up the tournament (unbalanced regionals) or because the smallest schools in the state have the same opportunity to win a state title as Nequa, New Trier, or Lake Zurich; I would argue it's the former. How does Podunk Central High School losing to a Waubonsie or Lake Forest or Libertyville in the first or second round or even in the sectional semis increase the prestige of the state tourney?
Where does the extra revenue come into play by having an added class? They provide $$ to officials for travel and games, have to pay a fee to use facilities. I was out at the class A final 4, but did THAT many people really show up? Also, if they wanted to make more money would they have kept the Elite Eight as the "Finals"? They charge $6 a head for each game, clear the stadium after each game, and they now have the money they are looking for.
I say the expansion to three classes in soccer has been a good thing, as the enrollment disparities among schools are so extreme. The enrollment disparity likely still plays a role in 3A, where three of the schools in the hotbed western and northern suburbs 3A supersectionals dwarf the enrollment of the average 3A school. That's why I'm pulling for "David" Lake Forest (2008 enrollment 1,800) to beat the odds and emerge past "Goliaths" Neuqua Valley (4,400), New Trier (4,100) and LT (3,800). It was asking a bit much of now 2A public schools to try to compete against schools with more than 2.5 times their enrollment.
I don't know Joe.... possibly we should have 8 classes like football.
There should be 3 classes. Each class should have the same numbers of teams in them. This would make each class more competetive.
While I don't know Jim Corsi personally, from all accounts I've heard, I believe he is a great guy, wonderful coach, and credit to Illinois high school soccer.
But (and isn't there always a but?) if he thinks there should only be one class is he willing to give back his 3 state titles and 3 other state trophies (all won as a Class A school), since he would not have won those had there only been one class? Does he feel that his championships are "tainted" since they were won as a "lower" class school? I would guess that's he's keeping the trophies and accomplishments.
It doesn't matter if there is 1, 2, 3 or 8 classes or if you divide all the soccer schools by 3 for 3 classes. Statically speaking, the schools that will ‘win’ will be the larger schools in the class. That gets kind of distorted when you have non-boundary (NB) schools as they may not actively recruit players but they can and do attract players that keep them going when they may have had a down year, thus keeping the school in the spotlight and able not to bottom out. Which in turn attracts more players which keeps them at a level above what a school their size could maintain over the long haul, IMO.
As it is now, 1A and 2A are going to be a NB school or a public school near the size limit. 1A, 4 NB schools this year, 2 NB and 2 large public last year. 2A, 3 NB and 1 large public (Lake View) last year. Looks like about 2 NB and 2 public this year maybe??? It is going to be a hard fight for the small 2A school 800-900 to win. Sure they can get to state if the cards fall their way, but year in and year out, it will be the larger schools in the class that win.
3A or AA from the past will always be controlled by the large public schools, there could be an exception, a Chatham here and there but more times then not, it will be the large public schools controlling it.
Bottom line, sure it is fun for a Timothy Christian school to win a state championship, great memories for all of them for a life time but I don’t think for one minute they think they are the ‘best’ team in the state. If your goal is a true state champion, I have to go along with the 1 class idea. If you want something else, then have the multiple classes.
Wait a second, maybe FIFA can do the same next world cup, have multiple classes based on population size. Still wouldn’t help the US but maybe Trinidad & Tobago could be world champs in 1A FIFA……..
You really need to stop with this "not the best teams crap." The 32 best teams in the world are not in the world cup. So what? If you are the best then you should be able to beat anyone, anytime.
I agree about the multiplier for private schools, no one is getting a free ride for playing at one school rather then at another, it's not like Div 1 College. The multipier really stinks when your enrollment is more like 2A then you are stuck in 3A playing the Goliaths--How can they compete? I also wondered why Football was able to have so many Classes.
The best teams are the ones who qualify. Clue...catch it.
Most Downstate coaches will agree that Gibault has been the best team down there when they won the state crowns. Don't believe me - ask the coaches, because I have.
They might have been the best 1A school when Gibault won but they were far from the best team in the state. During the last state title run in 2007, they lost New Trier (from the IHSA web site)
9/7 Winnetka (New Trier) L 0 7
So I doubt Anonymous that the "not the best team crap" is crap. They were the best 1A, just like TC is the best 1A this year. Fact is fact.
They played that game part of the Pepsi Showdown at New Trier on a Friday afternoon. It was billed as Class A vs. Class AA champs.
Three classes seem about right. With three classes...my reasoning is based on the Champion being able to win the higher class tournament. Highly doubt any team could win the two A flight and also don't believe any of the remaining teams in 2A would be able to win 3A...btw, I'll use an American Football expression to convey my thoughts on your picture over in England. You've outkicked your coverage.
There have been Class A teams that could've competed at the Class AA level - no doubt. And this year, I believe there are Class 2A teams that could compete easily at the 3A level. From the great Benet, Peoria Notre Dame, St. Viator and Gibault teams of the past would've been tough to beat. But we'll never know. My only way of knowing is watching those teams play a tough schedule and win throughout the year against larger programs.
No, no, a thousand times no to three classes. It's a joke.
Joe,
"By watching these teams play tough schedules throughout the year against larger programs???"
Who does St. Viator play that is larger??? They play Palatine early...legit, but the GBS tournament to start the year is nowhere near as strong as it once was and Peoria trip is great competition, but not against larger schools... and there conference are all schools of similar size...
Why don't they play the Hersey's for an inner-Arlington Heights rivalry game??? or other MSL schools for example that are all very close in distance and "bigger schools" that would provide great competition...?
St. Viator has always played larger schools. When it was Class A and AA, do you think they only played Class A schools? Many were Class AA. I know this alone in the Pepsi Showdown, St. Viator specifically asked to Geneva and it beat Geneva. This is the case with schools like Benet when they were Class A playing Class AA schools.
Hey HS Soccer fan,
Viator's 2009 non-conference/non-tournament schedule:
* Lake Zurich
* Palatine
* Evanston
* Geneva
* Gibalut
* Totino Grace (from Minnesota - state champs in '02, '04, 3rd in state '09)
So to say that Viator does not play tough teams or larger schools is simply not true. Every single one of Viator's non-conference games is tough.
I wouldn't knock the GBS tourney either. In that tourney are GBS, Stevenson, Mundelein, Niles North - all big AA schools. Viator has been playing in the GBS tourney since at least 1987, and possibly since its inception in '86.
http://www.gbstitansoccer.net/BoysTournaments.htm
So, they were playing in it even when it was "stronger" and consistently getting to the final game of that tourney.
Just a follow up to my first post (as if anyone cares). 2A was 2 NB schools and 2 large public. Triad and Freeport but have 1300+ and fall in the top of the 2A range (52nd and 63rd out of 177 2A schools). I would guess they will struggle to get to the finals, might but if I were to bet, I would go with PND and St. V to match up in the finals. 2 NB schools.
3A, NT and Lyons are the 10th and 13th largest schools in the state. Edwardsville is 60th and LZ is 88th out of 170 3A schools. Again, the larger one is, the better the chances, facts are facts.
1A and 2A will be most of the times, NB and the large public schools in that class. If you are below the mean and are a public school, at least in soccer, your chances are not that good that you will get to state.
3A will be controlled by the large public schools, small 3A are at a distinct disadvantage, just like small public 2A schools.
And the point of all this? 1 class or 3, the winners will be based on the size of the school and if it is a NB school or not. The smaller the class, the more advantage the NB schools will have. Once you hit the critical mass of 2500 plus, NB loses the advantage and sheer size takes over.
I'm for three classes but I believe they need to be evenly distributed. There are 423 boys soccer programs that entered the IHSA State Series this year. I think it would be better for each class to have had 141 teams. I know that is what they sort of did when they had 2 classes prior to the multiplier.
IHSA Boys Soccer Stats:
2009- 423 teams (1A w/ 124; 2A w/ 144; 3A w/ 155)
2008- 405 teams (1A w/ 115; 2A w/ 134; 3A w/ 156)