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Some have praised me, while others have said I should back off the need for the IHSA to fix its tournament. If it's going to be marketed and sold to sponsors and fans for their money as a "state" tournament, then we need to decide what it truly means.
If it means every team in the state is allowed to play like an AYSO Tournament, that's great. If it's to see who the best team is or at least close, that's another thing.
And for the record, I'm not the only reporter out there pounding the IHSA. Each fall, winter and spring, pick up any paper - anywhere - and you'll see the same tone for the most part.
Here's are a couple pieces from other reporters in today's papers:
Piece No. 1:
"The playoffs have arrived, and with them one team's chance to run off seven straight wins and walk away from Joliet's Silver Cross Stadium on June 13 with the state championship trophy. Wait, strike that. Thanks to the IHSA's watered-down playoff format, which rewards participation ahead of excellence, our talent-rich region has a trophy shot in two classes, 3A and 4A."
Piece No. 2:
Headline: The best in the finals? IHSA's state is cluelessness
"I'm not crying because we lost, because we've had our fair share of success. But every year we dread getting those pairings because it's always the same thing. They've got to break this up. It's every year like this. Talk about fair. It just isn't fair.
"They would be the Illinois High School Association. And I've got bad news for you. They won't break it up because they don't care about having the best teams in the state finals. They want regional representation. They want close proximity among the competing teams in the regionals and sectionals. They don't care about talent. They don't care about records. IHSA executive director Marty Hickman told me so Thursday.
"That hasn't been important to our membership in the past, and I don't expect that it's going to take on a great sense of importance in the future," he said.
"The record of a team has not been part of our process in any sport to go, 'OK, here are the good teams and let's try to create a scenario that will allow them to advance against teams that aren't as good.' If you're good, you get seeded higher in your sectional and you advance."
Amazing how there are other reporters out there who agree with me or maybe I agree with them. Whatever way you want to look at it, let me say this:
If the IHSA wants to have more teams involved with more classes, I'm for that. But find a way to even the playing field. It's misleading and not fair in a lot of cases - period. As one coach said this past weekend, "The crowds are smaller, there's less media and less interest in the finals than ever before."
- Joe Trost
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Joe
Congratulations to Hinsdale Central girls. Job well done. Also congratulations to Fremd and Conant. Great year Girls should be very proudof their achievements. (overtimes and penalty kicks) Great year for all the the girls that want to play high school and club sport.
Thanks Matt
Personally I just don’t see and way around a sectional area playoff format. Playoffs with any fairness are based on a seeding arrangement where , at the initial stages the “worst” teams play against the “best” teams. To go to non-area based playoff you would then have to seed the entire pool of teams from say 1 to 128 or however many teams are in the playoffs. Teams from different areas simply don’t usually play each other and there is no equitable basis for comparison for teams playing far apart without any common opponents. How do you determine who is the #1 seed and who is #128 ?
However, when seeding is done on a sectional basis and far enough in to the season my impression is that seeding within that section is more or less reasonable and based on reasonable comparison.
And then there are areas, like the Naperville area schools in soccer , who tend to play tournaments during the season just within their own area with themselves so it makes comparisons with teams outside their area that much more difficult even still.
Beyond that, the most fair thing to do is just to rotate super sectional parings so that the same sectionals don’t meet all the time. But I think that is as far as fairness can go realistically.
But one other point is this…. If you have some other method of determining a state champion…. Well then explain it and outline it …… don’t just complain about the present system.
Congratulations also go out to Sandburg and Lemont who showed that the south suburbs can also compete!
Just a question. Your final rankings list ST. Charles North 4th. Of their 13(?!?) wins, was even one against another team in your top 20? They lost to Geneva, who is not in your top 20. They had a couple of wins against out of state teams on one weekend in May. Other than that, what did they do to deserve to be 4th? So many teams ranked below them played much more difficult schedules and went much deeper in the state tounament. How could Conant, who beat Geneva within days after Geneva beat North, not be ranked above them? And then there's Fremd?!? The fact that they only played 18 total games, many against weak Upstate Eight opponents, should also factor in. I'm just curious as to your process. Congratulations to the Hinsdale Central Red Devils.
St. Charles North was loaded with talent, and yes, they played a solid schedule. They played Neuqua, Waubonsie, Huntley and Wheaton South to name a few, and they played in one of the better tournaments in the country in Iowa. They cut their schedule down this year in terms of number of games. As I said, I don't base rankings on one game. Why should it make a difference if they lost to Geneva in April or May? I will say this year there were probably 20 teams that could've made a case for rankings. The teams listed in others were solid, too. I'll still take a healthy St. Ignatius, Huntley, Loyola, Wheaton Academy and even Maine South and put them up against any team. That's how balanced this year was. While I believe Waubonsie had the most talent, there wasn't a clear No. 1 team this year - there just wasn't. I think that's good and bad for girls soccer. But it also shows how kids leaving to play club year-round has hurt the high school game in terms of overall talent level. I don't think there's any question about that. As for Fremd, they went back and forth in rankings all year. They beat Neuqua midway through the year, which was a big win, but then was smoked by New Trier at the end of the year. But then they rebounded and beat New Trier. Fremd beat Conant. It was a weird year. As one coach said to me yesterday, he's not sure if it was a good year though. I think time will tell.
I think if you look around at a lot of the sectionals you see a lot of teams getting beat by the same team that they beat earlier in the season. Motivation is a huge part of the game especially between teams that are really pretty close talent wise. The team that got beat first has a clear motivational edge.
As a matter of fact I'd say that the worst thing a team can be sometimes is a little too confident. A little worry and insecurity makes teams hustle more and play harder. I've seen that many times this year.
Somewhat Simple Solution,
Re-seed after regional, you then have a 32 team field that should be: a) easier to seed b) more representative of a real state champion. Is it perfect, no, are there teams that will still complain, yes. However, it's a good compromise for the IHSA and it's sponsors (i.e. principals and ADs) that don't want to travel a couple hours for every play off round. Of course there would be several road blocks to over come. The incessant excuse that all the fields and ref's must be set up before the first game is played. The dates are known, so the refs should be able to be selected. I'm sure that several sites could be picked in advance, and maybe one team does get a homefield advantage, but hey if they're the higher seed, maybe they deserve it. Go ahead and tell me why it can't be done! What's better in the current system that is better about doing this?
I have to agree with WCPMom...the south suburbs are no slouch. Add H-F, Andrew and hard luck LWC to the list representing the south.
The South Suburbs has to improve their schedules. H-F has done it the most of late, while Andrew also has added a few games. Sandburg's schedule does not compare anywhere near what it used to under former head coaches Brian Boll and Peter Follenweider. The New Triers, Naperville Invite, Pepsi Showdown, Libertyville, Evanston, powerhouses from Wisconsin, etc. are nowhere to be found. The South Suburbs is my home away from home, but any former or current coach that has been around over the past 10 years will tell you the area just is not the same. I'm hoping it's on it's way back up, but it has a long way to go. The clubs in the area are not producing the talent the way they used to.
Coach K:
If I'm not mistaken it primarily the coaches that do the seeds in a meeting. What your saying is in a 32 team "re-seeded" field you are asking for 8 central and southern Illinois coaches to seed teams from northern Illinois that they have NEVER played or possibly even herd of. And the reverse is true of the northern Illinois teams. To say nothing of teams that were in that final 32 that may not EVER have played at least half of the other teams. How would that ever be possible?
Or then we could ask Joe Trost to do the seeding. I guess we would at least know what area his top 8 would come from.
Here is my idea. Split the 3 classes evenly instead having this type of enrollment cutoff. If there are 350 soccer teams in the ihsa each class should have 116 eligible teams. You must have a .500 record or better to be in the state tournament. Then take the top 64 teams in each class and seed them. If you think that is unfair then look at football, they do it. Also this would mean seeding would not happen until after the season is complete. Football does it. Then seed those teams into 8 sectionals. A few of those need to be by geography only if the drive is excessive. Football does it. Maybe over 2 hours. Superscetionals could also be put into place. I do like having only 4 teams going to the final tournament instead of having a team driving 6 hours to lose in the final 8. The seeding should be done by a panel not coaches just like football does it. If I was a lawyer I would question the ihsa because it seems there practices are unequal
Red and Black,
Yes it is the coaches that do the seeding. And there are always teams I've never seen, that I have to seed. But each coach gives their record, and a short talk about their teams. And then we seed them. Are there some issues with how some coaches go about it, absolutely. But most of those coaches that I talk about, don't have a clue about any of it. And rarely would they make it to the final 32.
But to say that we couldn't do a reseed after getting to the sectionals is ridicules and insulting. To think we've NEVER heard of any of these teams. Come on, do you think we coaches live in caves and don't have a clue about what goes on in other parts of the state? I'm well aware of the good teams that come from the south or far western area's of the state. Show me a any season record, including regional play from any team and I'll have an idea of how good that team is. Whether you want to believe this or not is up to you. Some of us actually have a clue. Actually a majority do. I'm looking for a way to improve the tournament and get the best teams to the final four. Your simply satisfied with status quo. Well in my opinion it's not the best it can be right now. It needs to be changed. You asked for a suggestion and I gave one. Now you dismiss it, because you think the coaches won't have a clue. That's a pretty weak argument. Any coach worth his/her salt WILL have a clue. As I said in the my initial write up, is it perfect, no, but it would be better than what it is now. Make the change see how it goes and then adjust. BTW, that's how I coach too.
Coach K
Well then, just for the sake of argument, and with the understanding that we already know the outcome and that shouldn't be taken into consideration, please go to this years final 32 3A playoff bracket and give me your seeds ..... or at least your top 8 and why. It might be helpful to illustrate your argument.
Hey Joe,
It's only a game . It's how the ball bounces. Maybe the high school team advances . I don't know . But I do know ,that the teams from the MSL . Had to play 80 minutes ... plus 4 overtimes ..and then a shoot out..
(times 2) there is way too many games schedule for H.S soccer. Maybe someday IHSA can figure out a decent schedule for everybody. Congratulations to all the young women that participate in club and for their local H.S. teams.
Thanks Matt
Everyone wants a fair shake at the state tournament. What is wrong with an underachieving team (under 50%)winning the big one? It would happen someday. There are a number of "Groups of Death" in Illinois soccer. Same thing in World Cup play.
I don't know if a football style of seeding will work, I'll leave that to others. If the head if IHSA thinks the coaches are happy with the system, he is out of touch.
We must remember that the STUDENTS who play are the only reason we do this and we must keep their needs first. To travel 2 hours, play for 2 1/2 hours including warm up and getting back on the bus, then another 2 hours home to the school, then add commuting time: this may be a lot for a student who is finishing the season to do on a school night.
I am glad the questions are being asked and someday (I know is seems like in a few generations to Joe)we will find the best answer. No possibility will confront all the logistical challenges but we can do better than we are now. Just remember we need to gore the oxes evenly.
Red and Black,
You're funny!
If you're willing to post all the teams records including regional games, and give me a summary of their seasons, I'd be happy to do it. That's exactly the information that is provided during the seeding meetings. To do that on my own; I don't have the time or desire for it, just to prove a point to you. Suffice it to say, a re-seed for the last 32 would be better than what occurs now. That's my opinion, with a perspective of a 19 year coaching career.
Coach K:
If I had easy access to that information I would get it to you. But it is usually very hard to get timely information on games and statistics on most schools athletic web sites.
However such is not the case in the St. Louis area. If you've noticed, the St. Louis Post Dispatch is very big on listing all the high schools and their records and statistics. Comparisons and information seems much easier to come by.
Hey Joe.... sort of wish the Star newspaper group could do the same.
Yes the STL Today and Joe Lyons does a great job covering preps. But teams down there also handle that info. Christ, we just want coaches to call the scores in.
I agree with coach K that Red and Black is funny. You sound like a parent that every coach hopes they don't have in their program. Really what would the difference be if you play a 4 seed or a 7 seed? a 13 seed or a 17 seed? There are no gimmes in HS soccer...look at the regionals every year you will see a very high seed knocked off by a sub 500 team...Addison Trail beat DGS and Morton, but lost to a very low seed in the first game...anyone remember Viator 2 years ago when they were a top team either undefeated or with one loss...didn't they go down in the first game to the lowest seed in their sectional...
just play the games
while you're at it, if you do this for soccer, do the same thing for basketball since there are so many good teams in Chicago...they almost all knock each other out early too...set it up so half the sun times top 20 make it to the round of 32