Bright, Dumb and Naive...

Joe,
You are right on about this. As a former high school soccer mom, board member and coach's wife, I have seen this happen over and over. In fact, I could fill in the name of the player you are referring to with many names; some from our local high school. I don't understand why parents do this, especially early in their child's high school career and/or after they have committed to college. I do understand if they don't want to risk injuries but if they continue to play in tournaments with their club,they will be vulnerable to injuries just the same if not more.You can't beat the commaraderie and self-esteem gained by being part of a school team according to many players I have talked to about this or professional players like Brad Guzan have written about. Most times it is all about the quest to be the next Mia (am I dating myself?)and it is the parent's big ego, not the player. It hurts their child and sometimes the team; although when our two best players stopped playing with high school, the team got better as they were always submissive to and overshadowed by these other girls. What a shame...unless they do turn out to be national team players, no one will remember what they did following the Rory Dames types around the country. Sometimes being on the high school "Wall of Fame" or in yearbook pictures with your childhood friends are more sustainable and satisfying memories.

Sorry,people, I disagree .
Let me first say that I support high school soccer 100% . My son was a senior on his high school varsity team last year ,and much preferred HS to Club soccer, but here's where I have an issue . Too many HS coaches at present are being given a free pass and I understand and appreciate the time and effort that is put into teaching varsity sports and all that it brings with it . I also recognise that there are some fine coaches in great programs out there who do wonders for their players .My son was fortunate to play for one of them for a while. My concern is that this sport has progressed to another level in the last 5-7 years , and we still have many "coaches" who insist on coaching "their way" and consequently , rather than helping their players , actually regress them . There is a fear factor amongst some programs where no-one wants to admit that maybe change is needed in order to get to the next level . I don't pretend to know the circumstances in this particular case , and you mention that the program is "solid" . What does that mean ?? Our kids have only one shot at a college spot , and there is more college money in girl's college soccer than boys, so maybe this parent feels that her child will lose her chance to get to the next level .

I was in a similar situation to this parent , but my son's education was more important than his soccer .
Frankly , this sort of stuff happens all the time in basketball and football , which doesn't necessarily make it right, but I'm not going to vilify parents who want the best for their kids and call them "dumb and naive" .

Scenario :
1. Highly talented player
2. Incompetent high school coach
3. Coach insists on "his way or the highway"
4. Team record - consistently abysmal

What would you do ??

I have to disagree with you Joe. I think it is unfortunate that kids have to decide between playing high school sports and club sports to begin with. I know from personal experience that many factors weigh into the decision, it's not just about the coach. It's sad that you choose to characterize a player's decision as dumb and naive because you don't agree with it. Athletes need to be supported not denigrated. The one thing I agreed with in your column is yes there are days when you are dumb and naive and yesterday was one of them.

I found this very interesting today, an email to me:

"The majority of your property taxes go to schools.

"The schools are entrusted with a ton of dough and a mandate to educate the kids as best possible. There is no 'make us an NBA point guard' clause in a school's mandate, but they spend money on sports and fine arts and other clubs because they are part of the overall education of a CHILD. That's who we're talking about after all.

"It is part of our values and beliefs that sports teach lessons to CHILDREN that you can't duplicate in a classroom.

"Well, if that's true, then a club system that says you cannot participate in high school athletics probably isn't good. It essentially interferes with something we just agreed to invest a lot of tax money on.

"Look at the parallel between the academic programs and athletic programs of the New Trier's, Naperville's, etc. I don't think it's a stretch to say that they consider both to be part of the same objective to have well-rounded, well-adjusted kids.

"Maybe i'm crazy, but I think that club and high school need to co-exist for the benefit of the kids. I think the non-player you talked about misses out if she doesn't play. the emotional lessons of rallying around a team, a goal....man, I'd love my daughter to be a part of that.

"Club can do a lot of things, but it cannot duplicate that sense of urgency that you feel at the end of a senior year."

Hey Joe-I totally agree with you. High school sports is is in a class of its own-so much fun and so many memories. Whatever happened to loyalty and teamwork and friendship? How about caring about your team instead of just yourself. This parent missed an opportunity to teach a life lesson and instead lead her child down a path of selfishness.

Joe,
Who do you think you are insinuating that a parent is bright or dumb in relation to a choice made about his or her child in relation to a high school sport. I hope you received the information to which you refer in your article from the parent and not some crybaby high school coach who is thinking only of himself and his chances of being Coach of the Year. High school soccer is clearly not designed to get competitive kids to the next level. In fact, with an absolutely insane 5-day a week practice schedule, as many as 3 games a week and the good players being ridden like cheap donkeys just so the team can win, it's a wonder that these kids make it through the season without a serious injury. If you think that the current high school set-up is good for the soccer development of a high school girl you are dumb and naive. While I don't agree w/much Rory does, he's right on to afford girls an alternative to HS soccer.

Well, first, I'm Joe Trost and I write this blog. I put my name on it, stand behind the facts - so that's who I am to answer your questions. Thank you for being gutless and hiding behind a screen name. Yes, I called you gutless. Sorry, it should be a capital 'G.'

Secondly, I received the information directly from the parent who emailed me probably three times this winter complaining about something. Thank you for talking about something you don't have a clue about.

Thirdly, Coach of the Year - let me tell you something, a Coach of the Year honor is something few good coaches care about. But again, Gutless, that was a dumb comment.

Finally, high school soccer is not designed to get kids to the next level? It's main goal is to provide another educational outlet, first and foremost. But Gutless, tell me, hmmm, wait, I just want to think about this common sense thought for a half second - before year-round club, did kids never play college soccer? Wait, wait, wait - let me think. Wow, KayAnne Gummersall - played high school, played club - playing Diviison 1 soccer. Wait, wait, wait - Brittany Bock - played high school,played club, played for Notre Dame, drafted in the new women's league. Wait, wait, wait - Sarah Uyenishi, who now does marketing for Eclipse, played in high school, played club and played Division I soccer.

It took a half of second to think of three recent names of the THOUSANDS of kids who play high school AND club and play at the next level and beyond.

Thank you for proving the point of my headline - Bright, Dumb and (very) Naive.

Thank you for joining

Dumb, naive, selfish, misled, neurotic, and ultimately unaware. We had a Sockers/Top Talent girl graduate last year. She played her freshmen year. Her parents wouldn't let her after that. This girl was one of the most unhappy, depressed, robotic person I have coached. Her parents were toooooo involved. She wanted to play her senior year after she signed her letter of intent...her club coach wanted her to...her college coach wanted her to...idiot parents? "No she can't." No one at the school even knows who these kids were/are. It is the most pathetic logic I have ever been a part of...pathetic.

I think it's sad that there are a bunch of folks judging the decision of a particular parent and a girl. It's really none of our business. Why don't we spend our time talking/writing/thinking about those who are going to play High School soccer and leave the poor girl alone.

If it was none of our business, the parent wouldn't have reached out to me. Again, big picture - it's not about one person and the blog states that. Big picture.

Mr. Trost,

You obviously don't recall but even Brittany Bock skipped her junior year high school soccer soccer season to play club soccer. See her bio with the Los Angeles Sol. http://www.womensprosoccer.com/player_ektid8034.aspx?team=la

I'm sure it was a disappointment for her high school team and fans. I believe she was quoted in the papers as saying that she made the decision because the national team coaches said that it would be good for her development to play club during the spring.

The year off didn't see to hurt her development, as a player or a person.

One more thing in response to your note, while you mention Sarah Uyenishi as another example of a successful D1 player who played high school soccer (and I agree with you she should be commended for her accomplishments), even her younger sister Katie (who you had blog for you on this very site) didn't play high school soccer last year. What should we make of it all? Certainly not that anyone is "dumb" or even "naive". It's simply - - to each his or her own.

I'm afraid there's not a "one size fit's all" answer to this . If every high school had the funding, facilities, and coaching staff of some place like New Trier then possibly the argument would be more clear.... but most schools don't . And the choice of every girl and their parents is baised on very individual factors and circumstances. I know two girls of condiderable ability who will not be playing for their high schools this fall who could START on ANY team in the state and will not be playing for their high schools ; and although this is disappointing from one perspective I respect that they and their parents have tried to make the best possible decision baised on many convoluted factors.... and the decision is theirs to make.

First of all, each player's circumstances are different. Some have very good H.S. programs and coaches, and others do not. Some H.S. programs train their players well, others do not. Some players feel that during their Sr year they need to prepare themselves for college by training with their club year round, even if that means not being able to play H.S. There are alot of positives for playing H.S. - playing for the school you go to, noterity, friends etc. I do not think there is a correct answere for everyone.

It seems as though some things have changed since Sarah, Brittany and KayAnne where in H.S. This may explain why Sarah's youngest sister has never played H.S. I do not think you can criticize all players and parents if they choose not to play H.S.

Yes, Brittany played with the Chicago Magic boys her junior year and came back to high school her senior year because she missed it. High school did not hurt her, as it didn't hurt Katy Lindenmuth, Jay Konrad, Nick Kollinatis and countless others on the Eclipse Select staff. The same goes for the Chicago Magic staff, Windy City pride staff and others. Christ, Rory Dames, Mike Matkovich, Mike Nesci and others coached high school after playing.

It didn't hurt them did it? Jay Konrad still coaches high school soccer.

Go back to the point of the blog and re-read. The point of the blog was two-fold:

1. A parent saying a high school coach couldn't get her girl to the next level. Dumb and naive statement said to me.
2. The overall need for high school sports in the social growth of being in high school. Players every spring for years have told me they are so happy to get away from club. I hear it every, every year.

I've said it time and time again, it's good to have choices. It's good to have high school and club. No one coach in three months is going to get any player to the next level. Every year, college coaches from Notre Dame to Missouri to Tennessee to UCLA tell me that it's good for kids to play high school soccer, because it puts them in different positions and challenges them in different ways that club can't.

High school soccer is better today than it has ever been - better coaches, better players and better programs. You don't have the math teacher coaching. You have former players like a Steve Keller and Ruth Vostal for example.

If a kid wants to play high school - great. If a kid wants to play club - great.

But don't say you aren't playing high school, because the coach can't get your kid to the next level.

Mercy.

Still think you're off your rocker on this one , Joe. I do have a question though.

You don't explain in your comments exactly why it is dumb and naive for a high school player not to play HS soccer except to state that there are other skills that can be taught by playing HS . Agreed , and I also agree that no coach can take a player to the next level in 3 months , but I can tell you that playing on a poor high school team with a mediocre coach with no college contacts probably reduces your opportunities to play college unless you play for a top club.

What if in this case both the parent AND the player made the same decision . I don't know the program to which we are referring here , but if I'm the player , why in the world would I want to play on a bad team , for a bad coach who I don't get along with when I can play on a club at a higher level with a coach who I respect , and with friends , just like in high school.

I think you're dumb and naive , Joe , if you think that a player wouldn't make that choice .

Good discussion.

Points taken, but that wasn't the case here.
Good player, good program, good coach, numerous college players out of program before. It's a case of a parent being too involved, especially a parent that has never played the sport. The kid wants to play. And with this response, the dead horse is beaten.

It's a sport. Let the girls have fun. Most girls have been playing since kindergarden. My daughter is exicited to play with her teammates from club. Everybody has memories from playing H.S. ball.Let it go. My daughter has been been playing for a pretty good club since 5th grade. Let it go.
Traveling Dad

When you consistently mention Rory in your blogs and post pictures of him I think you begin to lose credibility. He is an example of what a coach should not be. When his team is losing he berates his players publicly. Direct quote: 1. This is the worst I have ever seen you play. 2. You are killing our team. 3. You are absolutely horrible. Way to be a positive influence on your players.
The question would be why they play for his club. Simple reason is that the best players want to play for the best teams. He is the 1980’s version of Bobby Knight where great players are playing for him because of his record. As you can see that type of persons coaching character eventually spills into their personal life and actions. Rory has made some questionable personal decisions involving his club and players. About the whole HS vs. Club debate is that it is up to each individual. Problem is that a club like Eclipse makes it hard for their players. If they go back to their club and they're an average player on their team they may have trouble finding playing time when they come back. It is interesting that Rory never pushed year round until he stopped coaching at Viator. The year he was done is when they began to push hard. That sounds pretty selfish to me.

While playing high-school in most cases is not as competitive as good club teams the thing about high school is the comraderie you have with your friends and just the fact that it's a time for a player to shine and get noticed in the papers, school etc.... Alot of girls don't get a chance to play in college or don't want to be that committed to college soccer. In high school the pressure is not there as much as it is in club and college. its a time for you to have fun and enjoy playing. I have a daughter who played in one of the top clubs , and not a very good high school at all but then went on to play in a TOP Div 1 college and she said she would never have given up the pasta parties, the good times with her teammates etc in high school.she succeeded because she worked to get better in every opportunity that came about which included high school soccer.I don't blame the parents totally because I know they don't realize what is ahead of them in college and There will be those opportunities to get to the next level in the college program she is going to.

You have your facts wrong. Rory's last year at Viator, the year-round club thing was already going. Mike Nesci was doing a lot of work, and Rory would run from Viator to Eclipse stuff. I recall being at Viator games seeing that happen and have other reporters ask me where Rory was. There were times when he would call me from a Nike Tournament, asking what the Viator score was because he had to miss.

KayAnne Gummersall didn't have a hard time finding playing time going back to Eclipse after playing for New Trier in the spring did she? Michele Weissenhofer didn't have a hard time finding playing time after playing for Neuqua Valley in the spring did she? What about Molly Uyenishi? Wait, did Liz Eng? No, maybe Jessica Levitt did? No, no no, you probably meant Cory Steigerwald? Come on. I'm at State Cup every year - I see who is playing after high school.

You may look at it as berating, some look at it as motivating. I played for coaches that were blunt, and I actually liked it. Players, parents react different to different coaches. This isn't a "everyone receives a trophy world." There are days when I'm the worst writer, kill this blog and I'm absolutely horrible. As one coach said to me today, "I love the blogs so far this year. Let's just hope it's not like soccer - a strong first half and a weak second half." He's right, that's the way it's been with this blog for me.

I was probably like that as player, too, on somedays - horrible and just killed my team at times. No coach wastes his time coaching just to rip players. Some might not use that tactic, but that's everyone's choice. There are people who love Rory and some that don't. Welcome to this thing called having a choice in life.

And not sure why it affects my credibility, but that's your thought. My job is to write the facts, write stories. If you don't like who I write about or the pictures that run with stories, don't read. It's pretty simple.

Here are my views pertaining to a head high school soccer coach.

I think that people need to realize that we are no longer in the 80's..thin ties and cocaine just aren't cool anymore. The majority of high school head soccer coaches have played at a collegiate level, are certified through USSF and/or NSCAA, and also coach club soccer.

If people think that a head coach is a 3 month job, they are soley mistaken. Head coaches are utilizing their 21 days of contact over the summer to train and go to tournaments. They have a relationship with a club to send their players to or create their own club and hire out trainers. They sign them up for indoor leagues to get the majority of their team together to start gaining chemistry between players. They run physical training throughout the winter that covers injury prevention, core, balance, speed, endurance, and strength into their game. They are helping players find a home that want to play at the next level. In some cases, they are directing a soccer club that many of their players are in or were in at one time.

So when I hear that head high school soccer coaches don't develop kids anyway, because they're only with them for 3 months...this is what comes to mind.

I would like to know how many players were playing year round before Rory left Viator and after. The numbers probably increased every year.
Also I said the average player. The 11th,12th and 13th on the team. Can they afford to skip year round if the rest of the team is doing it I doubt it.
Sure call it motivation what he does. Who would you want your daughter to play for him? What if she doesn't have your ability to tranlate the yelling into motivating? Who do you respect more Coach K or Bobby Knight. Would you rather him play for Guy or Rory? Keenan or Steib? Coaches are teachers and these players are learning from them. They are learning how to treat other people and when they become coaches they will emulate that style of teaching. Coaches who yell those type of things don't properly prepare their players and therefore have nothing better to say. Yelling at a player is a lazy way of motivating them. They blaim a player for not doing well and take the credit for success.
Your right it is your choice. I feel you are a strong voice in hs soccer and well respected. I think you have somewhat of a responsiblity to promote it in the correct way.

My son played club year round ? Why? because soccer was his gig, it was 101% his choice, please call him dumb and naive, not me. I will forward you his email. Do you think I wanted to be driving him all over Chicagoland, when he could have been at school practicing ? No way. Have you thought for a moment that it is the girls saying they want to play club ? Why is it always the parents fault, believe it or not, not all of us are helicopter parents. He ran track for his HS, he enjoyed that, but said you always play at the highest level that you can. I always thought he was mature in making the decision to give up the HS glory game and train for his passion, but I will give him a call today, and let him know he was dumb and naive. Maybe you should get emails for all the kids training for the olympics and that are homeschooled. What ? they want to play for their country....why, they should be playing for their HS, shame on them.

You must have ducked, because the HUGE point you missed. But reading is a skill, I know.

I could get those numbers for you, as for four consecutive years we talked about players skipping high school to play club between 2002-2006. Then I finally just got sick of it, because a kid deserves a choice. As for the average players, those are the ones that need to play high school. Rory, I know for a fact, has told those kids to play high school. I've written stories on it before. College coaches want them to.

All those coaches you mention, I respect. Some people don't, but I think it builds character. So what happens when your girl or your boy goes into the real world? You think someone isn't going to yell at them? Wow, where is that Candyland at? So are you saying Ozzie Guillen is a bad manager, because he yells. I'm a Cubs fan, but I think he gets the most out of his players. What about Mike Ditka? Everyone has different styles.

And I'll tell you something, yelling is not a lazy way to motivate someone. It might not be right all the time, might not be needed all the time, but to each their own.

I'm not promoting anything. I'm writing about a sport, issues and people. Each person has a right to make their own call and decision. I'm expressing a thought and allowing others to do the same. I'm trying to provide a voice for soccer, seeing that football and basketball dominate everything here.

In reference to the comments by High School/Club Coach , it sounds like you represent the model of what our HS coaches should be doing.

Unfortunately for some of us , not all are like you.

I congratulate you . I'm sure your players appreciate it.
Good luck for the coming season.

PS I completely disagree that the majority of high school coaches are ex-college players . I don't have supportive numbers , but I did the math on my recent experiences .

Not even close.

Recent experiences - of what - one area? Most high school coaches are former players these days - mark it down, put it on tape. The Pepsi Showdown alone, more than 90 percent of the coaches in the largest tournament in the Midwest are former players.

A correction Joe. Pepsi is not the largest tournament in the Midwest. The IHSA state tournament is much larger. Remember, its only another tournament and, if so, its larger than pepsi.

Actually, you are right - I stand corrected. The boys is the largest regular-season high school tournament in the Midwest. The Pepsi Showdown girls is the largest regular-season high school tournament in the country, with more teams playing at one site than any other high school tournament. Thank you for pointing that out.

Interesting. 90% of the coaches in the Pepsi Showdown are ex-collegiate players. That's great.

What I also find interesting , is that there are only 4 teams out of 32 from the South suburbs.

As I stated , on MY recent experiences , which I will say is in our Conference area , the majority of the soccer coaches are not ex-college players.

If they were , the standard of play would be at a higher level

I can tell you Lincoln-Way Central, Andrew, Stagg, Lockport and Joliet have former players now coaching. I can tell the other coaches have been coaching soccer longer than I have been alive. As for only having four teams from the south suburbs - that's due to the area being down. I will always have representation from all parts of the area. The city is the weakest area when it comes to girls, but they have teams. But going back to former players now coaching, I'll tell you this - there are more former players coaching now than ever before. You have to remember that per union contracts, a school must hire from within if there is a in-house candidate that wants the position. There is no question that everyone agrees with that former players make good coaches, because their knowledge of the game. But some of the best coaches are not former players.

I agree with you , Joe , it's much better now than say 5 years ago . We do have some assistants coming through from the college ranks but will they ever get the head coach position ? Time will tell

You refer to the area being down . Why ? The schools are still there and there are more of them now then when Pepsi started ! Is it that the coaches feel they cant compete at that level ? Or do they feel that there are more suitable tournaments elsewhere.

I feel they can't compete.

I believe I know exactly what HS and player this article is talking about. It was a bad decision, and it will be regretted. Many great players have gone through the program and gone to play in college. She made a huge mistake. She will regret it next year.

There is a deeper issue here - a commitment to "people" - the "people" who worked with this young phenom, who developed her, who spent hours and hours of their volunteer time to invest in her. These people are now parents and the coach of this player's high school team. Where is the commitment to "people" here?

Why do you equate having played soccer with the ability to coach soccer? I drive a car every day, but that doesn't mean I could build one.
One of the former player-now coaches that you listed is a prime example. Mediocre coach who has tremendous talent laid on their lap from the club programs. Poor strategist who relies almost exclusively on athletics (bang and run) and little on actual soccer skill. Team excels in spite of the coach. Is that what you want from a "former player" coach? How about someone who will teach the actual skills and tactics of the game?

I think I know who this article is referring to, and this girl is committed to a phenomenal college and will go on to do great things. However, she did not need to sit out of high school in order to achieve this. And I completely agree that Rory Dames is not a coach that one should look to as an example. He is a very bad influence on his players and does not teach them anything as a person. And I have heard him say much worse than "this is the worst I have ever seen you play". He consistently degrades these YOUNG girls and acts extremely immature in front of his players. And while he may have the best "record", his players have a foundation from other coaches like high school coaches who have actually put the time into developing them, rather than seeing them as having instrumental value. Dames uses these girls as a means to an end, and if they can't bring him success, then he doesn't bother with them. On the other hand, a high school coach is truly looking out for the best interest of the player. He/she wants them to succeed and is trying to make them a more well-rounded student. Now, you tell me who you would rather your daughter play for.