Chicago Sun-Times

Cutler knows he has big challenge ahead with Martz

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It was Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Fouts who said Jay Cutler's greatest strength -- his strong arm -- might be his biggest weakness in first-year offensive coordinator Mike Martz's new offense.

''I totally agree with that,'' Cutler said in an exclusive interview with the Sun-Times. ''In the West Coast [offense], you can see it and let it fly. But this system is total trust. You have to trust the receivers. You have to trust the call. You have to trust the spots. If you don't, if you don't let it fly when it's supposed to, it's going to be an interception.

''You take your seven steps, you identify the coverage and let the ball go. The receiver is supposed to be there.''

Find the open man. The words that have been drilled into the quarterback's head since he was old enough to grip laces are suddenly irrelevant.

Now his challenge is to ignore that instinct. Imagine being told your success hinges on forgetting everything you ever learned.

''When you have a real strong arm, like Jay, you're not forced to anticipate and throw the ball early,'' said Fouts, who played in a similar system under Martz's mentor, the late Chargers coach Don Coryell. ''When you have a gun like that, you rely on waiting to see them open up and getting it to them. And in the NFL, that gets you in trouble because the reaction time of defenses is so good. The one thing I had to learn was to trust the system and put the ball in a spot. That takes time and practice. For Jay, that's the adjustment that will be tough to make.''

Fans lining the sun-baked practice fields in Bourbonnais won't be the only ones taking in the drama that promises to define the 2010 Bears this season and likely beyond. The football-watching world will be keenly interested in one of the NFL's best story lines when Martz and Cutler begin public workouts when training camp opens Friday at Olivet Nazarene University.

Martz is The Brain. His high-risk, high-reward offense has been effective everywhere he has gone. Cutler is The Arm. Nobody doubts his physical skills. But for them to have the kind of success that could save the jobs of general manager Jerry Angelo and coach Lovie Smith requires a unique synergy.

''I'm real interested to see how things work out,'' ex-Raiders quarterback and CBS analyst Rich Gannon said. ''You look at Cutler last year, and he led the league in interceptions. If I were coaching him, that's the one thing we would have to straighten out. Then you think about Mike's philosophy. He has been very aggressive as a play-caller and with the mind-set of his quarterback.

''What he needs is a quarterback who is smart with the football and makes great decisions. Everybody is anxious to see how Jay will respond.''

Even Jay is anxious to see how Jay will respond. This is no easy transition for a player who always has been defined by the strength of his arm, which only adds to the intrigue. This curious pairing could lift the franchise to new heights or blow up on the launch pad.

So far, so good. But the real transition has only just begun.

Cutler admits he struggled mightily while trying to throw to a spot instead of a receiver during OTAs and training camp. He plans to talk with Martz pupil Kurt Warner next week to compare notes.

It remains to be seen if Martz-Cutler will be a productive union. Martz's offense requires more five-and seven-step drops, which puts a lot of stress on an offensive line that was the perhaps the Bears' most inconsistent unit last season. A young receiving corps blossomed when players started becoming comfortable in the offense late last season. Now they're learning a new, more demanding system that puts as much responsibility on them as it does the quarterback.

''Mike has a philosophy,'' Cutler said. ''It's different. It's cutting-edge. He presses a lot of boundaries offensively in what you can do and what you can't do. You've got to accept those. If you don't accept it, if you don't buy into it 100 percent, you're going to struggle. Luckily enough, with a young team, with a team that has a lot to prove, it's easy to do that. Guys are there; they're eager. They can see the benefits of what can happen when they do buy into it.''

There are risks associated with Martz's offense, no doubt. There also are ample rewards. If Cutler can learn to throw to spots, the receivers respond and the line holds up, Martz could help the Bears build an offense that might be the signature of the franchise not only in 2010 but well into the future.

''I've bought into everything he has said,'' Cutler said. ''We've been on the same page. I've definitely let some balls go and receivers weren't there. He said you have to keep throwing it there. The receivers have to be there. Now we'll just have to see how it works out on the field.''

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35 Comments

Seeing how this system works out with the young receivers should be a real blast. I can hardly wait to observe the Bears and watch that spot-passing approach with speedsters like Knox on the receiving end. Optimism reigns supreme at the moment, and one hopes it remains that way up to and through the Super Bowl.

ahhh...cutler wil be just fine!!1 he is teh best qb in the nfl rite now sense i say so!! he is PERFETC! like me almost... :)

but ou gus now me old cra-pton...just tyring to be posative..

ps oopsies time to go glen beck is on ans i never miss it! :)

"Cutler admits he struggled mightily while trying to throw to a spot instead of a receiver during OTAs and training camp. He plans to talk with Martz pupil Kurt Warner next week to compare notes."

Martz has been nothing more than garbage ever since he took a ride on Warner's coattails in the early 90's.

Kurt Warner made Mike Martz, and it was Kurt Warner who was the real deal. Winner of 3 of 10 NFC Championships in the last decade... Super Bowl MVP... 2 League MVP's. Leading two of the worst franchises in NFL history to the Super Bowl.

What is amazing to me is that we could have brought in Warner five years ago, but Lovie said he'd have to start out as the 3rd stringer behind Rex Grossman and some other bum I can't remember.

Anyone that dumb deserves to be fired (and he probably will sometime this season).

If Cutler accepts Martz's philosophy, the sky is the limit. Everyone thinks this is mixing water and oil, but quite the contrary; his system seems to me to be an answer for Jay's "let it fly" mentality. Throw to a spot will help take away a lot of his aggressiveness, and improvisation which normally results in many interceptions.

Whether the offensive line pass protects well is not an afterthought or a minor detail, as laid out in this column. It is the single biggest factor in whether Martz's offense will be successful in Chicago. The Bears are taking quite a gamble with Martz considering how bad the line was last season. The line played pretty well the last few games, but if it doesn't continue to improve on that AND if the running game doesn't pick up a lot, Cutler could be in the hospital before the season is over, probably well before.

I've said from the moment they didnt fire Lovie Smith that they were on the fast track to ruining Jay Cutler. Idiots. This is the absolute WORST offensive coordinator that they could've hired out of all of the qualified candidates. Just foolish cronyism. Lovie Smith needs to be gone and should've been fired along with Ron Turner after the season. Managements/Ownerships failure to clean house will come back to haunt this team for the next several years. Jay Cutler will be learning from his fifth offensive coordinator in as many years. Just pure foolishness.

Nice article. Not sure about this whole "throwing to a spot" thing though. Couldn't that lead to more interceptions, and thus more blame on Cutler because fans don't understand the system and that he is doing what he is supposed to be doing? If that happens the media better not bury him about it either. Should be an interesting and fun year to watch! If anyone can do it, Cutler and his crew can. They want to prove something this year.

Cutler will put up yards in this offense, they all do. The question is will he put up the points. Given the skill position players he has its hard to imagine that.

The offensive line only matter to some extent in the case of the Martz offense. Every QB has been hammered in this offense and every QB has thrown a lot of picks. You can just hope the picks are limited to the low 20's. Where the O-Line really matters is the run game. If the can effectivly run block whenever they need to that will really help out. If thye can't the Bears are just Martz in Detroit all over again. Lots of passing yards not a lot of points.

This offense will never be the greatest show on turf. That was one offense on a different team a decade ago. Just like you will not see the 85 Bears defense ever again. Things like that just don't happen very often despite what public relations department says to the media and how much the media buys it or some Bears fans.

That offense had 4 maybe even 5 HOF players on it when Martz took over. The Bears are not so lucky.

You can probably expect lots of passing yards, about 4200. One of the weakest running games in the nfl, bottom 5 in attempts and yards. Lots of sacks, at least 40. About 20-23 picks, and about 345-365 points scored. Which is probably not good enough for the playoffs.

The biggest problem will still be timing disruption. The Bears recievers have struggled against the Jam and that is one of the things that kills this offense.

I see people keep talking about Cutler's arm but I think his most single important question mark is his mental make-up. No one is going to knock his arm because it's there to see. But there is more to it than that. Cutler is practically a dinosaur in the NFL for being a "let it fly" kind of guy. What coordinator will agree with that? You have to rein in guys and they have to work within a system. And it doesn't matter what system he's in, if his mental make-up isn't going to help his team he's a bust. I didn't see a coordinator available the past two years that was thought of as being the guy most qualified to help him. Everytime a name came up he had his detractors on this and many boards. Usually the only one people can agree on is the guy who had some past success with him. Whoever that was probably isn't up to the task either.

Imagine if you're the QB and all your receivers are invisible. You can't see them, but you can see all the defenders. Your only job is to take the snap and throw it to an area where the defenders aren't. Doesn't seem that hard, right?

Now imagine if you're a receiver, and the entire line of scrimmage is dark. You can't see the line or the QB or the ball, but you can see every defender off the line of scrimmage. Your only job is to figure out where those defenders aren't and go to one of those spots.

That's my understanding of how the Martz offense works. Obviously it's not that simple, but the basic idea is the QB is supposed to recognize the defense and where the open spots are, and the receivers need to also recognize that defense and get to those open spots. They all know how many step-drop the play calls for, and their routes are timed so that their break occurs at the moment the QB is releasing the ball. The key is for the QB and the receiver to both recognize what the defense is and make the correct adjustment. It may seem like a reactionary way to play, but all the formation shifts and hot routes are designed to limit the ways the defense can defend that particular play. It forces the defense to react in a predictable way. When the QB and receivers are in sync, it can look beautiful. Receivers will catch the ball in full stride with no one around them and rack up the YAC. However, when they're out of sync, it can look ugly. The QB will throw it 5 yards in front of a receiver, and everyone will think he can't aim, but in actuality it's the receiver who was late to the spot.

It's definitely not meat-and-potatoes football, but it's one of my favorite offenses to watch. The first time you see 15 seconds of motion shifts, with Olsen ending up as one wideout, Forte as the other, Hester as running back, and Manumeluma as FB, with the defenders having no idea who to guard, you'll fall in love with it, too.

So Cutler will be throwing to an imaginary target? And the receivers will have to predict and react to an imaginary spot? It will look beautiful if it works, but if not I can see more INT's and more QB blame if it does not work. Jay is in a lose lose situation if those receivers do not adjust.

Sprelay you are right

I was thinking recently about Da Bears offense this year. I think it will be successful for two reasons.

Greg Olsen and the backs

Imagine Da Bears come out in a two tight end two back set. All of a sudden Olsen lines up as a wide recieiver and both back line up as wide receivers too. Defenses in a 4-3 have to adjust but can any linebacker cover Greg Olsen or Matt Forte or Chester Taylor down the field?

With all of the athletic receiver Da Bears have and all that speed, the receivers should stay fresh. Defenses will be on their heels. It is important for Da Bear to get through the first half of football with a winning record...5-4 is fine. The offense gels in the second half of the season in time for a 4-3 finish or maybe better.

Just good enought to win in the first half while everyone gets on the same page, then great in the second half.

I'm patient, I'll wait, I used to be a Cubs fan now I'm a Red Sox fan...I'll wait. I doubt it will be 100 years.

sprelay, thats not quite how the offense works. The QB still has to go through progressions. The recievers usually play out of a 3 wide set, High Low, middle, the first read is high or what you would call deep. The first reciever Cutler sees open he throws too. Al lthe recievers still have to run routs, and the QB still has to anticipate who is open and were they will be at the end of his drop. Sloppy routs can kill this offense and so can physical play at the line. Its also not a great red zone offense most of the time. It is designed to score on big plays but like most pass oriented offenses on a shrot field the routs become cramped and easy to shut down. Thats why Faulk helped out so much with the Rams, he was a nightmare in the Red Zone.

WDR, Big arms and quick releases will never go out of vouge in the NFL. While the spread offense is more and more popular, the speed of NFL defenses means you need to thread the needle more times than not. You do know the greatest gunslinger QB in nfl history was on a top 4 team last year and had a pretty good season. Rythem and timing QB's are great, but cna you name a great rythem and timing QB that had a great career with a bunch of mediocre players around him? Montana is the king of that class of QB, but he had some pretty talent around him, so did Aikmen, and Brady.

Then you have the big guns, Marino had garbage, Favre was pretty much the only guy in GB for years, Elway had next to nothing most of his career, same for Moon, and more recently McNabb was never that well supported. But all of them had pretty good careers. Oh and Manning 6-5 laser rocket arm. Joe Flacco as well is new, cannoned arm and doing well.

Mostly I think it just comes down to everything mixing together just right. Right QB in the right system with the right players around him. When that does not happen you will get a lot of mediocre years.

Is Martz and Cutler and the rest of the guys a good mix? Who knows, but at least by friday we can start getting an actual real idea about it.

Creighton: "Then you have the big guns, Marino had garbage, Favre was pretty much the only guy in GB for years, Elway had next to nothing most of his career, same for Moon, and more recently McNabb was never that well supported. But all of them had pretty good careers."

Timmer: That is a bunch of bull dung. Im gonna make you eat your words Creighton.

Dan Marino pro-bowl supporting cast from 1983-1989:
1.Dewight Stephenson(Center) 1983-1987.
2.Richmond Webb(tackle) 1990-1996.
3.Ed Newman(gaurd)1983-84
4.Bob Kuechenberg(tackle/gaurd)1983
5.Mark Clayton(WR)1984-1986,1988,1991
6.Mark Duper(WR)1983,1984,1986
7.Keith Sims(gaurd)1993-95
8.Roy Foster(gaurd,Tackle)1985-86
9.Irving Fryar(WR)1993-94
10.Ferrell Edmunds(TE)1989-1990
11.Keith Jackson(TE)1992
12.Keith Byars(RB)1993
Thats 12 players in Dan Marino career that had made the pro-bowl and all but 2 had multiple selections around Marino.

Creighton insert foot in mouth.

Creighton: Favre was pretty much the only guy in GB for years.

Favre's pro-bowl supporting cast from 1993-2007.
1.Sterling Sharp(WR)1993,1994
2.Ahman Green(RB)2001-2004
3.William Henderson(FB)2004
4.Antonio Freeman(WR)1998
5.Donald Driver(WR)2002,2006-07
6.Mark Chmura(TE)1995,1997-98
7.Bubba Franks(TE)2001-03
8.Marco Rivera(gaurd)2002-2004
9.Frank Winters(gaurd)1996
10.Dorsey Levens(RB)1997
11.Keith Jackson(TE)1996
12.Chad Clifton(tackle)2007
13.Javon Walker(WR)2004
14.Mike Flanagan(Center/Tackle)2003

Thats 14 players can you fit 2 feet in your mouth?

Has anyone noticed that Da Bears are banking on proven track records this season? Martz has imporved every offense he has touched and Tice has imporved every like he has had. I hope the trend continues but one thing is true, these guys are the real deal, they can evaluate talent and can teach. Something lacking during the Ron Turner ERA.

I'm also glad Jay has a real qb coach, sorry but I am not sold on Pep Hamilton.

I think Jay has tons of talent but he is young and need a great coach and to be in the system for a years....like all other great quarterbacks....also a better line. Jay is not a finished product but he can be great with good coaching.

I'm not saying people don't know what they are talking about but I read somewhere that Martz rode on Warner's coattails? Huh? Martz improved Green, Warner and made a probowler out of late pick Bulger. He can't make talent but he can develop it. A mark of a great coach is getting everything out of a player. Martz does that, but he isn't a magician. He can make diamonds out of coal but he can't make diamonds out of hot garbage.

If Da Bears can score one more touchdown a game and get 10 more sacks this year. Way better than the 7-9 record. Imagine a healthy Urlacher, with Peppers and Briggs. Not bad.

Imagine a oL that can block, did anyone else find out about no blocking sleds in the previous coaching camps? Does anyone else think Ron Turner and company are ditch digging material?

Creighton:Elway had next to nothing most of his career.

Elway's pro-bowl supporting cast from 1983-1998.

1.Shannon Sharp(TE)1992-1998
2.Terrell Davis(RB)1996-98
3.Gary Zimmerman(Tackle)1994-96
4.Keith Bishop(center)1986,1987
5.Sammy Winder(RB)1984,1986
6.Gaston Green(RB)1991
7.Bobby Humphrey(RB)1990
8.Ed McCaffrey(WR)1998

Rod Smith never made the Pro-Bowl when Elway was a QB but he did have 1,180 yards and 12 TD in 1997 and 1,222 and 6 TD in 1998. Not to bad. Also Denver had some great defence's the years he was their.

8 players went to the pro-bowl and allmost 3x that number on defence so take out one foot and insert it again.

Amazing! I mostly agree with everything Creighton has to say.Certainly the concept that all the pieces of a team have to mesh is not exactly a totally new observation, but the power arms in football quarterbacks are like the power arms in baseball. They may not be completely necessary, but they definitely help.Finesse can compensate, and reading the defenses is crucial, but those guys that catch the poor throws and outfight defenders play a great part in any quarterback's success.Warner has been lucky in his receivers when he was most successful, but his accuracy and ability to read defenses were the key ingredients.

Creighton: McNabb was never that well supported.

McNabb's pro-Bowl supporting cast from 1999-2009

1.Shawn Andrews(Tackle)2006,2007
2.Brian Westbrook(RB)2004,2007
3.Terell Owens(WR)2004
4.Chad Lewis(TE)2000-2002
5.Jermane Mayberry(Gaurd)2002
6.Jon Runyan(tackle)2002
7.Jon Dorenbos(center)2009
8.Tra Thomas(tackle)2001,2002,2004
9.DeSean Jackson(WR)2009
10.Mark Bartrum(center)2005
11.Jason Peters(tackle)2009

11 players in as many years I would say that is being supported. How many feet do you have? Insert the left or right foot doesnt matter.

Creighton:Same for Warren Moon.

Warren Moon's Houston Oilers pro-bowl supporting cast from 1984-1993.
1.Bruce Matthews(tackle,gaurd,center)1988-1993
2.Mike Munchak(gaurd)1984-85,1987-93
3.Haywood Jeffires(WR)1991-93
4.Ernest Givins(WR)1990,1992
5.Drew Hill(WR)1988,1990
6.Webster Slaughter(WR)1993
7.Curtis Duncan(WR)1992
8.Lorenzo White(RB)1992

Minnesota Vikings pro-bowl supporting cast 1994-1996
9.Randall McDaniel(Gaurd)1994-97
10.Cris Carter(WR)1994-97

Seattle Seahawks 1997,1998
NONE

When Warren Moon went to the Cheifs he only was in 3 games.

10 players went to the pro-bowl in Warren Moons career with 2 different teams.
Creighton your toes are gonna be wrinkled by the time you get done reading this. Enjoy do you want some horseradish sauce to go with those feet?

Creighton what you think and what you know about football are two different things. When you go off in rants and raves you tend to speak without thinking. Next time you group Hall of Fame players together and say they had no supporting cast try looking things up first. Hall of Fame players do NOT become Hall of Fame inductees with out a supporting cast aorund them.... So remember it is a team sport with more then one player on each team.
In my post up above I only mentenion Offensive pro-bowl players. Elway, Favre and McNabb have had some good to great defences throughout their career and that helps a bunch.

Creighton again remember O-lineman and runningbacks are just as importan to QBs the WR.

Chow

Timmer cheers!

well done timmer. lets see what the big mouth has to say now.

The biggest concern is the O-line, but consider this.

The way Martz's system is taught, even when the QB takes a seven step drop, the QB is supposed to snap the pass off within 4.5 seconds, because the QB is supposed to already know where he is throwing it, and combine the fact he is not supposed to wait to find an open receiver, but instead only see an open spot to throw it to. This takes no longer than a traditional five step drop, where the QB is supposed to set up, and then read and find a receiver before throwing.

Also, with the way Tice is teaching his OL to balance up by keeping their hands up, will allow the lineman to stay in front of the defenders. With as quick as the throws are supposed to be, unless a lineman makes a mental mistake on a blitz or stunt, or unless they totally whiff on a guy, the defenders will not be able to get to the QB most of time before he snaps it off. Once again the way Tice is training our OL, whiffs on blocks, will be much reduced.
The Weakness of our OL will be power run blocking, not drop back passing. They also got that huge TE to help with drop backs.

Furthermore, most of Cutler's "poor choice" Ints are when he forces the ball, when no one is open, and he has run out of time. In this offense, the finding someone open part is removed, the reading the play during the play is reduced, and the QB is just supposed to get back and throw to a pre=determined spot. This offense will remove the "forced ball interceptions." Head scratching Ints in this offense will be mostly because of bad calls by Martz or the receivers not being where they are supposed to be. And there will be some of that as they grow, so I hope the media gives Cutler some rope during the growth period.

So the biggest issues for the offense (as it is for most teams) will be red zone again, and this is where bigger receivers like Olsen and Devin A. will have to step up.

Nice job pointing out the facts to Creighton. Creighton can start counting OFFENSIVE PRO-BOWLERS on the Bears since 1995. You can leave 1 hand in your pocket.............

I'm not sure what you guys problem is exactly with Creighton, but he is correct that this offense relies on timing and it is essential on receivers getting clean releases off the line. Hester & Knox, the supposed two starting receivers have struggled mightily getting off press coverage in the NFL. Exactly how did the Patriots beat the Rams the year they were the greatest show on Earth? Mug the heck out of them at the line of scrimmage.

This offense will fail for all of the obvious reasons. You have a quarterback with a power arm being placed in a system that requires feathery throws to a spot based upon timing...Negating one of his best qualities, arm strength. Next, you have receivers who struggle with press coverage and who are still considered raw route runners playing in an offense in which the offensive coordinator demands precise route running and timed execution. Third you have a coordinator who is notorious for abandoning the run calling plays in frikin Chicago, Illinois- Soldier Stadium. Finally, the offense is ill suited for a veteran cover-2 team that struggles the longer it stays on the field, which will be the case in a high octane, turnover prone offense. Idiots...

It amazes me how many of you idiot Bears fans are so happy with this hiring and think somehow that this is going to be the best thing for this team. This was an absolute horrible hire...Remember my name because I'll be back posting I TOLD YOU SO in about three months... & I'll also see what you have to say about Creighton as well then... Idiots.

Fire Lovie Smith and bring in Ron Rivera...PLEASE.

Against GB and Minn, they go 1-3
Det 2-0
They beat Seattle 1-0
They lose to the Panthers 0-1

That's 4-4 so far boys

Then they face the NFC East 1-3
AFC East 2-2

That is 7-9. And that is not that bad considering how untalented the Bears are and how tough that schedule appears to be (appearances could be deceiving).

Lovie, Martz, Babich, and Angelo fired at the end of the season. Not that they were the worst GM coach combo the Bears have had the last 20 years, but they are not good enough now.

I don't know who are the "would-be" GM's, but I hope they hire someone that can draft smart players with a tough character. Buddy Ryan once said "a coward will beat ya, and a stupid player will beat ya."

I hope this next GM hires a tough minded coach who is not married to a system on defense or offense. A GM that will draft linemen first, and work his way out from there. Almost every good team in the league is tough in the trenches (except Colts and Packers).

Cowher would be great I think. Leslie Frasier might be a great young coach who is educated in Chicago philosophy of football prior to 1990.

I just don't see this current group going anywhere this year with that tough schedule.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Go Bears.

Press coverage is not as big a weapon against Martz's offense now as it was back when the Belicheat's Pats mugged the Ram's receivers on their way to a victory. As you might recall, the rules against CB/WR contact have really been tightened up on a few years ago after Peyton Manning's teams were being mugged yearly by Ty Law and the Pats. The only real defense now is a pass rush, dropping lots of guys into unpredictable zones, and forcing underneath throws, leading teams into errors and field goals (see N.O.'s def. in the SB).

Furthermore, those that say Martz's system will take away Cutler's strength are not necessarily correct. Martz will have more freedom to call deep throws to open windows, then he could with weaker armed QBs. He can also still mix in TE options, roll outs for Cutler, and all the runs he wants. The only question is will he try to be less predictable than he has been in the past. I personally think he will. I think he will call plays to take advantage of Cutler's and Olsen's and the rest of the player's strength's (though it might take a while to figure it out). I think Martz knows this is his last chance to succeed.

You need to take a better look at your stats hot shot. I'll start with Marino.

83 to 99.

1.Dewight Stephenson(Center) 1983-1987. Great Player played only 4 years with Marino. Well at least he had him for the first 4 years of a 17 year career.

2.Richmond Webb(tackle) 1990-1996. Their are only really two guys on this list that really helped Marion and this is one of them.

3.Ed Newman(gaurd)1983-84 Played a 1 1/2 seasons with Marino at the very end of his career. Retired at the end of 84. Gone after 2 years.

4.Bob Kuechenberg(tackle/gaurd)1983 You forgot played only 9 games with Marino. Retired at the end of 83. Gone after 1 year.

5.Mark Clayton(WR)1984-1986,1988,1991 Mark Clayton was a good player, but Marino had a lot ot do with it.

6.Mark Duper(WR)1983,1984,1986 Was a pro bowler because of Marino, and if you don't know that you probably should not talk football. Had one good year after 86.

7.Keith Sims(gaurd)1993-95 Decent Player but Webb helped him out a lot. When Webb stopped going to Pro Bowls so did he.

8.Roy Foster(gaurd,Tackle)1985-86 Foster was good because of Stephenson and did nothing after he left. Started only Six years with Marino

9.Irving Fryar(WR)1993-94 Spent the first 9 years with the Pats, not exactly a young stud when Marino met him. Played With Marion for 3 years.

10.Ferrell Edmunds(TE)1989-1990 A blocking TE. Thats nice. How about a punter while your at it. Or a long snapper.

11.Keith Jackson(TE)1992 Played 2 years with Marino, Missed 6 games

12.Keith Byars(RB)1993, didn't get this one right did you. He played FB for Miami for 3 whole years. Starting in his 8th season.

So over Marino's 17 year career, this is what you grabbed. Not all these guys played together, you know that right.

In 87 Marino had two pro bowlers that year including himself.
In 88 Clayton was the only pro bowler on the team
In 89 1 pro Bowler a blocking TE.
In 90 2 pro Bowlers a LT and a Blocking TE
In 91 Three Pro Bowlers Webb Clayton and Marino.
In 92 Three Players Marino, Webb and Jackson
In 93 4 Players went to the Pro Bowl Lt, Lg, FB and WR. Funny thing about 93. Marino only played in 5 games. He was hurt.
In 94 4 Players, Webb, Sims, Fryer, Marino.
In 95 3 Players Webb, Sims and Marino
In 96 1 Player Webb
In 97 Zero
In 98 Zero
In 99 Zero

I am sure it is fun when you put that together cause it looks like a lot to someone who doesn't know anything. But when you look closer and see very few of them played together for any extended time. Or that a lot of them where past their primes when he played with him or that some of them where not that crucial to the team, like a blocking TE or FB. You will also notice not one good RB over his career. A lot of those where just vets at the ends of their careers when they played. Nice try but why don't you take your own foot out of your mouth. Outside of the begining of his career when he was on a team full of vets he had little help. "He had 32 year old Irving Fryer for two years wow great, tons of help." Fryer only played with Clayton for 1 year. Lots of these guys never met.

I'll do the rest later its really late. Wait till I do the Packers and Oilers.

I can't believe you know this little about Marino's career.


Let the lesson continue, by the way if you don't know this to be true " Marino had garbage, Favre was pretty much the only guy in GB for years, Elway had next to nothing most of his career, same for Moon, and more recently McNabb was never that well supported." The you know next to nothing about football. Ask anyone who has clue about the game.

By Timmer
"Creighton again remember O-lineman and runningbacks are just as importan to QBs the WR."

Really then How come you did not list a RB for Marino.

Now for Moon, you got a lot nerve saying Warren Moon was well supported for most of his career.

Warren Moon 15 year starter 17 seasons total, 203 games started.

Your list

Warren Moon's Houston Oilers pro-bowl supporting cast from 1984-1993.


1.Bruce Matthews(tackle,gaurd,center)1988-1993 An interior linemen played 2 1/2 years at tackle 15 on the interior. Great player but still guards are not that key in a passing offense.

2.Mike Munchak(gaurd)1984-85,1987-93 Great Player same as Matthews a outstanding interior linemen. But an interior linemen. Nice but not a key position on a passing offense.

3.Haywood Jeffires(WR)1991-93 Out of a 10 year career he had 3 good years. Again thanks to Moon. Unless you think his 215 yard season with the Saints was good.

4.Ernest Givins(WR)1990,1992 Earnest Givens, Moon and the two guards were basically the good players on the Oilers. Did not become a starter till his 4th year. Started 6 seasons.

5.Drew Hill(WR)1988,1990 Spent his first 5 years as a Ram his best year with them he had 416 yards. He Met Moon and suddenly became good. When Moon left and he went to Atlanta he was not so good anymore. So bad with 2 different teams but good with Moon.

6.Webster Slaughter(WR)1993 Only played 2 years with Moon and he was decent at the time. Played 12 years and had 1 thousand yard season.

7.Curtis Duncan(WR)1992 Played 7 years and never had a thousand yard season. Only a starter for 4 years. Yeah lots of help.

8.Lorenzo White(RB)1992 You got a lot of Nerve listing this guy as a lot of help. Played 8 Years and had 1 good season which he can thank Moon for. Started 50 out of 107 games. Hahaha another one of your great players Timmer. Do you even know who he was or did you have to look him up?

84, number of Oiler Pro Bowlers 1, LG
85, 1 pro Bowler LG
86, Zero Pro Bowlers

87, 2 Pro Bowlers LG and a RB you didn't list, I guess you didn't feel he was important. You would be right his name was Mike Rozier, played 7 years in the NFL was only a primary starter for 4 of them and only ran for a 1000 yards once, pretty much a nobody.

88, 4 Pro Bowlers, LG, RG, QB, RB, WR

89, 3 Pro Bowlers. Guess who? LG, RG, QB. So much help,two great guards.

So for the first 6 years in Houston he did not have much help. Granted he got more help the last 4 years he was there, but Moon carried that team for 6 years out of 10.


Moon Started 2 1/2 years for the Vikings in his 11-13th season. Did he play with these guys for most of his career? Not even close. Neither even counts.
Minnesota Vikings pro-bowl supporting cast 1994-1996
9.Randall McDaniel(Gaurd)1994-97
10.Cris Carter(WR)1994-97

You have to be kidding with some of this garbage, and these names. Did you ever see some of them play. Again if you don't know that Warren Moon carried a pretty mediocre Oilers team most of his career then you are Football stupid. Again you like to bunch up names over 15 years, but the fact that you have no clue that most of them didn;t spend a lot of time together, or where not starters, or were on the team for a short time, or were againg vets is just sad.

I know you will do anything and look for any argument you can make against me. This is just sad though. Pathetic. Saying Warren Moon had a lot of talent to work with as an Oiler. Listing guys you know nothing about and claiming them to be high end talent. Lorenzo White??? Hahahahaha. I don;t think you have ever watched football.

Oh god I have to Elway, this is just to much.

John Elway QB NFL, 16 seasons starter. 83-98

Ok the fact thathe only had 3 pro bowl players his first 7 years should be a little hint. Da da da da. Hahahaha. You didn't even list Steve Watson who had back to back thousand yard seasons with Elway. However he only started 4 years with Elway.

Ok so here is your little list

1.Shannon Sharp(TE)1992-1998 Didn't Play with Elway till his 10th season as the Broncos QB. I guess you missed the part where I said most of his career, like the first 10 season might considered. Hahahaha, how do you not know this stuff.

2.Terrell Davis(RB)1996-98 Only played 4 years with Elway. What part of most of his career confused you Timmer.

3.Gary Zimmerman(Tackle)1994-96 Great player tobad he didn't meet Elway till his 12 season. Spent his first 7 years as a Viking. Played only 5 of Elways 16 seasons with him.

4.Keith Bishop(center)1986,1987 Played 7 out of 16 years with Elway, not even half his career, was an ok center.

5.Sammy Winder(RB)1984,1986 Is this a joke? He played 9 years in the nfl 6 years as a starter, 4 years starting for Elway. He had over 800 yards rushing, once in his career. This is your idea of talent?

6.Gaston Green(RB)1991, Hahaha another guy. Do you even know he was? Played 2 years with Elway 5 in the nfl. More of your so called help. 2 out of 16 years. What a boost.

7.Bobby Humphrey(RB)1990 Hahahaha, Played 4 years in the NFL started 2, played with Elway for two years. Not a lot of help when a guy is only on your team for 2 years out of 16. Hahahaha

8.Ed McCaffrey(WR)1998 What about him. He only played 4 years with Elway, and until he met Elway he was nothing the first 5 years of his career. An ok player but didn;t start until 96, wow three whole years starting with Elway.

83, Zero Pro Bowlers
84, 1 pro Bowler
85, Zero Pro Bowlers
86, 3 Pro Bowlers, Elway, Bishop and Winder who rushed for all of 780 yards with a 3.3 average. How he got to the Pro Bowl is a miracle.
87, 2 Pro Bowlers Elway and Bishop
88, Zero Pro Bowlers
89, 1 Pro Bowler Elway Hahahahaha
90, 1 Pro Bowler RB
91, 2 Pro Bowlers, Elway and Green
92, 1 Pro Bowlers Shannon Sharpe
93, 2 Pro Bowlers Sharpe and Elway
94, 3 Pro Bowlers Sharpe Elway and Zim
95, 3 Pro Bowlers Sharpe, Zim and Miller who you didn't even list which is ok beciase he didn't play with him for very long did he?
96, 4 Pro Bowlers, if you don't know them shame on you
97, 3 Pro Bowlers,
98, 7 Pro Bowlers. Retires.

Ok now for more mistakes. First I will give you Rod Smith as a Great Player but he started 2 years with Elway at the end of his Career. You forgot Tony Jones, Schlereth, and Nalen, none of whom played with him til at least 10 years into his career.

So no he did not have a lot of help for most of his career. The Real Help started in 92 with Sharpe, 11 years into his career. Again most of the names you listed did not spend much time playing with him. Dude read a book about the NFL.

You really don't have a clue about football. How do you not know this stuff. You want to make an attack on me by using mis-leading information. Acting like all these guys spent there careers playing together. Half the guys you list are nobodies Pro Bowl or not. Most of the guys you list spent little times with those QB's and none of them where ever all together at one time.

Timmer=bad information. You don't even no the right guys to list. You want to show me you know football? Don't the pro bowlers. List the bad players. Actually never mind you have listed plenty of bad players. Hahahaha

You should call like B&B today and tell them your theory and these QB's being surrounded by talent most of their careers and then email them your list. That way I can listen to them rip it apart. Better yet when Neil or Sean do the question thing ask them about all the talent Moon, Elway, Favre, and Marino had for most of there careers. Make sure they read your lists. What do you think these guys where all on the 49ers or something?

This is like classic football history, everyone knows it. Marino is one of the top 3 QB's in NFL history and has no ring. Why do you think that is, because of al the talent he played with? Hahahahaha, Same With Moon HOF QB no ring, cause of all the great talent?? Hahahahaha Elway got his Rings his last two years after they actually put a decent team around him. And Favre has 1. If all four where to share the rings they still wouldn't have enough to go around and all 4 are HOF QB's.

What a joke.

I will probably give neal a break and skip the rest, but really read a book on the nfl before yo ucomment on this stuff.

Creighton great players make players around them better. Just because Moon and Marino didnt have any other hall of fame players that they played with doesnt say they played with crap players. Stats are over rated and so is players going to the pro-bowl but HALL OF FAME PLAYERS dont be come HALL OF FAMERS playing with nobodys. The avg span of an NFL player back in those players days was around 4.5-5 years.
Creighton you say football stupid but you said a gaurd isnt much help in the passing game....Saying that is stupid. Ahhh where do most all blitz formations start, in the middle! Isnt the gaurds playing in the middle of the line? Yeah football stupid.
How did Marino pass for 64,000+ yards 420 Touchdowns by having crap players around him??? How did Favre become the All Time leader in most all passing stats? Well because he had good not Hall of Fame but good players around him.
Creighton you say a player is crap if he only has a couple of good seasons well thats wrong.Good and great players get injured they fall off but that doesnt say that at one time they didnt help their team! The NFL is full of one trick poneys and one hit wonders that is what makes the NFL entertaining because you dont know year from year whats gonna happen.
Creighton you just have to understand that in the NFL you cant ack like the N.Y. Yankees and buy out all the All-Stars there is a CAP so having players come in for a couple of years to help out the team is not uncommon. NFL teams cant stack one side of the ball and think there gonna win. NFL teams have to sign and draft player that arent gonna be great but will be a great FIT for the team. Ahhh the Team word yeah TEAM.
So you justifying all those players you mentioned had no help to Moon or Marino your WRONG why because it is a TEAM sport yes team. Football isnt tennis.

Wow, WTF:

Opinions are like arsholes every one has one. Why don't we stay on topic and deal with the article.

Cutler will do well within Martz's system. I believe that based on whether Cutler does well will determine whether his supporting cast earns all pro or pro bowl honors.

A typical great year by the QB whether it is Montana, Elway or Marino determines whether a Left Tackle or WR is rewarded with an honor of All pro or Pro Bowl and typically it all starts with the QB.

How many of these offensive guys that were honored were on teams where the QB sucked. The defensive players were the ones honored when the QB sucked like the Bears have had for the last 40 years.

If Cutler has a pro bowl or all pro year then the offense will have some players that also benefit with this award, a Left Tackle, a wide receiver, a running back, maybe a guard. If Cutler sucks and even if he is not sacked do you think that a WR or tackle will be given any awards for performance, Hell no!!

Her!Here! dahlillama. I couldn't agree more.

I second dahlillama. Back to the topics, please! We all have our opinions, no need to voice them constantly, though. That being said, I think Cutler will do VERY well with Martz's system. Of course. And he did =)

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This page contains a single entry by Neil Hayes published on July 25, 2010 9:46 AM.

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