Chicago Sun-Times

Four Down Territory, April 8: Could Angelo go movin' on up in draft?

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Let's get right into the mailbag today.

Q: I agree with you that Jerry Angelo needs to build around Jay Cutler and that needs to start with some competent wide receivers. As much as I want to believe Earl Bennett will look like the career leader in receptions in the SEC and not Mark Bradley, how do we know that will happen. So, to improve Angelo's chances of hitting with a wide receiver in this draft, what are the chances he trades up into the top of the second round to get say Hakeem Nicks or Kenny Britt if they fall out of the first round which could happen.

Victor S., Chicago

A: Like I said on Tuesday in response to an inquiry about free-agent wide receiver Matt Jones, prior to the Cutler deal I would say there was little chance. After the Cutler deal, anything can happen. The Bears made a bold move to acquire the quarterback, then immediately signed a seven-time Pro Bowl left tackle in Orlando Pace. It seems to have ushered in a new way of doing business at Halas Hall. In the past, I would have said no based on Angelo's history. In studying his draft deals with the Bears, he's traded up just once. That was to select wide receiver Justin Gage in the fifth round in 2003. Bet you wish they still had him on the roster. The point is, Angelo's history has been to make conservative moves and when he trades, he trades down to add more depth or put more bullets in his gun. Your idea for moving up to the top of the second round, or near where the Bears selected cornerback Charles Tillman at No. 35 overall in 2003 is a good one. Here's the problem--what does Angelo offer to move from No. 49 to the mid-30's? The Bears traded their third-round pick to Denver in the Cutler deal. Their compensatory third-round pick--No. 99 overall--cannot be traded. That leaves a fourth-round pick and two fifths. Those picks might not be enough to get the Bears up the 12 to 15 picks you're talking about. It would also put a real squeeze on a draft right now that has the Bears with eight picks. For those reasons, I think it is unlikely the Bears will be in position to move up.


Q:
As the debate continues regarding Jay Cutler and whether the Bears gave up too much, I submit for your comment that there are only four quarterbacks in the NFL I would want before Cutler as my starting QB: Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees. In the next grouping, I would put Cutler, Ben Roethlisburger, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan and Tony Romo. Kurt Warner and Donovan McNabb are pretty good but on the downside of their careers. Eli Manning is up and down although he does have a Super Bowl. Chad Pennington had a good year last year but is limited. Matt Schaub looks to be injury prone. Matt Cassel may have been a product of the Patriots system and needs to show he can do it elsewhere. If Rodgers has another year like he did last year for the Pack, I may rate him ahead of Cutler. But Cutler could have a strong year this year as well (although he doesn't currently have the weapons that Rodgers does). Who would you rank ahead of Cutler if you were building a new franchise, as your starting quarterback?

Scott, Sleepy Hollow

A: Now there is a loaded question. But let's take a look at something interesting here because you're right, much has been made about the price the Bears paid to get Cutler out of Denver. Let's recall the trade back in 2004 in which the New York Giants and San Diego Chargers swapped Philip Rivers for Eli Manning. Neither one of them had an established track record in the NFL, but it's worth looking at because of the picks involved.

Here was the deal:

New York gets the rights to Eli Manning, the No. 1 pick in the 2004 draft

San Diego gets the rights to Philip Rivers, the No. 4 pick in the 2004 draft, and

*** 2004 third-round pick that turned into kicker Nate Kaeding
*** 2005 first-round pick that turned into linebacker Shawne Merriman
*** 2005 first-round pick that was traded to Tampa Bay for offensive tackle Roman Oben

It doesn't look like the Bears will pay that big of a price for Cutler, not unless Kyle Orton turns into a top-flight quarterback for the Broncos. I think looking at this deal helps put in perspective somewhat the price the Bears paid.

Now, if I was building a franchise, how would I rank the quarterbacks? It's tough to put Cutler ahead of Roethlisberger when you consider what an excellent performer he's been in postseason play. Say what you want about his surrounding cast, but Roethlisberger has been fantastic at times in clutch postseason games. That's something everyone is looking for and we've got no idea how Cutler will perform under the ultimate pressure. Brady, both Mannings, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger and Cutler probably make up the top seven in the league. Cutler is closer to 7 than he is to 1, at least in my book. I agree that Rodgers and Ryan could be in that company soon. Very soon.


Q: So the Bears have had one formal minicamp, unfortunately without Jay Cutler. Can you remind us of the NFL rules for formal and ``voluntary'' offseason practices? I am curious as to the plan to acclimate Cutler to the playbook and his teammates. Presumably Cutler can review the playbook and study film on a voluntary basis. Does he do this on his own or with Ron Turner's coaching? Also, if he throws to his new receivers can coaches be present, or is it a player-only ``voluntary workout?'' Finally, will there be more minicamps before training camp in July?

Steve, Oak Park

A: We touched on the offseason schedule at the end of the veteran minicamp last month. The collective bargaining agreement allows teams to hold one full-squad minicamp during the course of the offseason. Lovie Smith wanted to get right to it and thus the Bears will not have one with Cutler. The voluntary, and I'm glad you put that in quotations, offseason program began Monday. There will be a rookie minicamp the weekend after the draft but that will be for draft picks and undrafted free agents only. In the past, the Bears would schedule their full-squad minicamp about a week after the rookie minicamp so they would be acclimated to the system.

The voluntary offseason program consists of weight room work and minor drills on the field. Cutler has already thrown to some of his receivers. More regimented work can be done in the OTA's, which are also voluntary. There are OTA's May 20-21. Players are then off until June 1 when OTA's run for three weeks with four per week for a total of 14 sessions. That is when Cutler will get in the most structured on-field work with his new teammates. As far as working with Turner, they can drill in the office at Halas Hall as much as they want. I'd expect him to be pretty familiar with the playbook by the time OTA's get going if not sooner.


Q: So much attention is rightfully being paid to getting Jay Cutler weapons on offense, but I'm sure coaching was a large part of his success in Denver. Is there any way for the Bears to get any of Cutler's offensive coaches from Denver, namely Rick Dennison (offensive coordinator) or Jeremy Bates (quarterbacks coach)? It looks like Bates is at Southern Cal and Dennison is still in Denver. If it is possible, would either side be interested? If it's a matter of money, it seems to me this is as important as wide receiver and I assume the Bears would pay well for a wide receiver that had great success with Cutler. Why not do the same for a coach? Is there a concern about disrupting the current Bears coaching staff?

Jerry K., Winston-Salem, N.C.

A: If Cutler is going to get new coaching with the Bears beyond coordinator Ron Turner and quarterbacks coach Pep Hamilton, I believe it would come after a shakeup of the offensive staff. The Bears run a different offense than Denver and they are going to want to coach Cutler in their system. Bates is credited for a lot of work with Cutler but, you are correct, he is at Southern Cal. Dennison was more of a running game coordinator with a background as an offensive line coach. That's the position he has returned to under new Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. I don't expect the Bears to bring in any new coaches to work with Cutler. Not in 2009.

Thanks for participating and thanks as always for reading. We'll check back with another Q&A on Thursday.

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24 Comments

ahhhh....LOVE the pictur brad. is just fabulous! like ive been saying since the begining...angelo is MY HERO!!! but some of you looser FAIR WEATHER FANS just now think hes the best because he got cutler. i told you loosers al along how totaly awesome angelo is. i always thoguht he the best GM ever ans you loosers didnt beleieve me. taht makes me SICK! your all HIPPOCRITS!

you suport the team feelas! thru think ans thin! jus like ive alays been doing! ans you loosers should NEVER say anything bad abot lovie angelo turner babich philips teh macaskets or staley da bear who gave me a hug wehn i visitd him with my mom.

but uyou guys now me old crap-ton just trying to be posaibe...

p.s. "I will be outside Soilder Field in a hot pink panties that say spank me" so mak sure to bring teh family ans tel dem ole crap-ton sent ya! ;)

Okay, I'm going to throw two names out there for consideration with the Bears compensatory pick or later, maybe even round 5 for Kelly:

Aaron Kelly, Clemson WR 6'5" 204 4.49 in the 40. I know drafting a Tiger wide receiver didn't work out so well for us the last time, but Kelly is a different kind of player. He's also just a year removed from over 1000 yards and 11 tds.

Ramses Burden, Cal-Poly SLO, 6'6" 227 4.51 40. 1257 yards and 18 tds.

What does the educated readers of Inside the Bears think? I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

To Scott from Sleepy Hollow...Would you really take Phillip Rivers over Jay Cutler? Drew Brees? Not me! I have Peyton Manning #1,Brady #2 but falling (he's a system QB, he wouldn't be as good somewhere else) Cutler #3...he's young, mobile, big, cannon arm, he's got it all! Rivers, no way. Brees is a midget like Rex. When Peyton retires, Jay will be #1!!!
By the way, Orton is #64+

Brad,

I know that there aren't very many viable options in free agency right now. Will there be any "big name" cap casualties in the near future? What are the rumors you are hearing about who might be released?

Ripper we must have a psycic connection I have been screaming about these 2 guys. Get em both and pray. If it works out we will have a great recieving core.

hey crap, who the hell taught you how to spell? im not jumping on JA's bandwagon, he's made a couple good moves since being with the bears and thats it. if ron turner doesnt adjust his offense to fit what cutler can do, then shame on RT, because he will be wasting JC's talent. all ive ever said about lovie is that he needs to show some kind of emotion out on the side line. he is a BORING coach.

Orlando Pace said himself today that he is trying to recruit Big Game Torry Holt to the Bears. That says it all for me. Why hasn't Jerry Angelo made this happen yet? It seems apparent to me that it may just be a matter of time no matter how many times you write Holt isn't going to be a Bear.

I admit Jerry Angelo has made my "never say never" list for awhile, but I just don't see them moving up in the draft.

Brad is right, they just don't have enough trade-eligible draft picks left to give them any juice.

If they do trade up, it would have to include a player. If you start talking about the 2nd round, it would probably have to be an established starter. Who do they trade that doesn't leave a hole somewhere else?

On straight trades, it seems like the team receiving draft pick(s) for an established player usually winds up on the short end. I'd rather they sit tight and get the best players they can from where they are in the draft.

I have a response to all of the syndicated, so-called journalists that keep trashing the Bears and Devin Hester and the trade they made with Denver.

The WR Situation:

Boy, there are a lot of Hester haters out there. Listen, I think the guy should be moved to the slot and used as a full time returner. However, he caught 50+ balls for over 600 yards in a dink and dunk offense in his first year as a starter at WR. Those numbers aren't what you expect from a "go to" guy, but they're nothing to sneeze at. And remember, Turner and Hester were limited by the fact Kyle was VERY INEFFECTIVE AND INACCURATE on 15+ pass plays. LOOK UP THE NUMBERS NECKBEARD LOVERS - LOOK 'EM UP.

We'll see how effective Devin is with a QB that has ALL THE TOOLS.

I'm not saying Orton doesn't have skills and can't develop into a very good QB. If anybody can develop him, it's McDaniels. I do wish him luck in Denver. But the fact is, in Chicago, Kyle didn't do much with long-pass plays and play-action. In fact, he didn't do sh!t.

In other words, IT AIN'T ALL ON HESTER. And yes, I know he struggled with route-running.

Forte, Olsen, and Clark can catch passes too. They had respectable stats last year. And the Bears are better at TE and RB than the Broncos were last year. It ain't all about the WR.

The Trade Value:

Chicago was likely going to burn a draft pick on a QB in 09 or 10. It would probably have been between rounds 1 and 3. So really, losing a pick for an established, proven talent was not that big of a loss. When you consider the fact that Chicago received an additional 3rd rounder for the Bernard Berrian fiasco, the NET LOSS TO THE BEARS WAS REALLY ONLY 1 FIRST ROUND PICK (oh, and Neckbeard too).

Correct me if I'm wrong Biggsey, but don't the Bears have a full complement of picks in rounds 2-7 for 09 and 10? Isn't Angelo pretty good in those middle rounds?

I think the Bears did very well. Frankly, so did the Broncos.

But I guess we'll see won't we.

Conclusion:

There are a couple of good secondary guys in the draft that can play CB and Safety. I totally recognize the Bears desperately need another receiver. But I also think the Bears would do very well to nab a free agent at that position, and then draft for the secondary, defensive line, and receiver - IN THAT ORDER.

my .02

MS,
I am in total agreement with you. Who can we move that doesn't hurt us, and what do we do when we get to where we trade up to? I see our list of potential trade bait as:

Vasher--not a whole lot of value, unless he shows he is recovered--4th or 5th rounder is best case for him
Idonije--perfect 5 technique DE candidate. Lots of teams are converting or finishing their conversion, so there could be some attractiveness. Or someone like Buffalo, who needs someone on the other side of Schobel that can play on all 3 downs.--maybe a 5th rounder
Dez Clark--perhaps Buffalo again, and we might get a 3rd or 4th for him. Olsen is the future for us, and Kellen Davis is a mismatch in the passing game as well. more likely a 4th or 5th there too
Urlacher--Briggs can play the middle if we need it, and Williams, Roach, and Hillenmeyer could fill in around him. Urlacher could have more value as a 3-4 outside backer, because of his athleticism, and it could add 3 years to his career. He could be the next Willie McGinest.--He could be the big hitter of the trade bait, where we could get anywhere from a 3rd to a 1st for him. He might even have some value as an inside in a 3-4, and lots of teams wouldn't mind a 6'4" 260 lb MLB who can cover the seam...

That's pretty well it from my perspective. Any of the DEs should be considered fair game, especially Ogunleye, who is in the last year of his deal. But there is not a whole lot of value in any of these guys. We will need to find a specific fit for anyone, and be happy to get more than a bag of Cheetos and a large soda....Maybe 3rd or 4th round pick for any of the three, probably a 5th for Anderson.

I was listening to Tim Ryan and Pat Kirwan doing their mock through the first two rounds, and they got us to Delmas at 49. Not a bad deal if it works out. Robiskie was long gone, and they had 6 WRs in the first round. I like the idea of the safety at 49, but I would rather see one of the WRs slip. Or Jerry can pull another surprise, and get something out of one of these teams for someone who doesn't fit our future plans (Vasher and Clark are the two most likely) and get some extra ammo to either fill needs, or package to get into the running for some of the better WRs..

Trade up and grab Heyward-Bey.

Brad I don't see them moving up, they have to many needs and not enough picks to throw around like that.

By the way I still don't like Angelo as a GM or scout. He can't draft. Bump him up to the President, cause Phillips is clueless and get a GM that knows how to draft. I am also not big on his over paid defense that has shown little in 2 years, thanks to his picks.

Well Brando I have been debating if I will do that or not. You see you did say you would never post here again. Then you broke your word. Which I new you would do. But then again you are a spinless lying coward. TSK TSK TSK, makes me think why should I honor my word when nobody else is. But then again I am a man of my word and I like to set the standard. I only hope you show up so I can show you what I really think you, buddy, pal :), don't be afraid you will survive. I think I might actually try to convince Brad to post the pic's of you, I mean of me dressed like that. After all if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there, does it make a sound?

After all I can just say I did it. It's a big place and opening day is 24 hrs long. Nobody would ever know, if I did or didn't do it. Unless Brad wants to lend a hand and post the pics. Heck I could have done a practice run already and already have pic's of it.

Brando I almost forgot. Why are you bringing up Cutler. I myself was all for the trade and wanted it to happen although Ifelt it was a long shot, just like many did. You however hate Jay Cutler and didn't want the trade to happen you were all about Orton. Thats why when the deal went down you didn't post for a couple days.

You also seem to think trading for Cutler makes Angelo good at drafting. In fact it proves my point, even Angelo knows he sucks at drafting and would have just wasted those picks on busts. Good for him for recognizing that. So once again I was proven right plus I got what I want, Jya Culter in a Bears uniform. You were wrong again and you lost on of your great loves in Kyle Orton. Sorry I know you will miss picking leftovers out of his beard. Now why don't you go be a Bronco fan sense that is your boy. Sure is strange for a so called Bears fan to hate Jay Cutler. You probably hate Pace too. By the way how can you call yourself a Bear fan when you never talk about the Bears. You just talk about me. Hahahahahah, I took football away from you.

Go Cutler, Go Bears, Go be a Bronco fan Brando, the Bears don't want you. After all who wants a guy around who can't keep his word. see you opening day B#### if you got the stones.

Now this is a first. Bronco's fan???? Never! I have much more orange and blue running through my blood then what you do Creighton.
Ohhh Waite how can I. I'm from Indiana, as so is Cutler. For one I am just tickle pink ohhhh bad words, I'M tickled blue on this trade.

Just because I'm a Orton fan and always will I DO NOT ROOT FOR ANY OTHER TEAM BESIDES the Bears.

Kinda funny you called me out in a forum that I never even wrote anything in yet. That's putting your tail between your legs.

Stones you want to talk about stones well no matter what no matter how many wins or losses the Bears have I still talk and have a positive outlook on what the Bears are doing. You on the other hand cry like a little baby and dream about Mendenfall being a Bear.

Hey look only a small very small percentage of teams have success at drafting. Tell you what kid Creighton The Bears have done pretty damn good at doing that. Maybe not the sexy first round pick but the have brought some very good players to this team.

You talk of Angelo like he is that meat head from the Lions ahhhh what was his name?? Hes fired now so what does it matter.

By the way Creighton do you think because your from Illi you have more of a passion for the Bears then us Indiana/ Hoosiers including Jay Cutler????

Tell me your thought Creighton! Fu#k Ass fair weather fan. Let me clue you in on a fair wether fan

One who doesnt like the team untill the have sucsess. Then all you wood roaches come out of the wood work and say ohhhh thats my Team.

Creighton I almost forgot. We all know you hide behind a computer acting key word ACTING like a know it all. You even call out an expert in Brad Biggs. You are shallow. Just by you saying opening day is 24 hours long and all that crap your telling us TRUE DIE HARD BEARS FANS that you have no intentions of living up to YOUR word.

Let me remind you again Creighton. You said I can not have as much passion for the Bears because I live in Indiana well hey Jay Cutler is, may I say it again a HOOSIER and proud of it there buddy!


P.S. TRUE DIE HARD FANS don't have as MUCH negativity towards what you call a team you root for like you do.

Creighton I'm am down right sick of you and my husband going back and forth with each other. Its to the point where none of you two thick headed fans are gonna get the last word in.

Let me tell you Creighton Brando is the biggest fan of the Bears I have ever seen. For 12 months straight he wont shut the hell up talking about DA Bears. All of his family has to tell him to just shut up!

Just dont even respond to him because he will not STOP!

Excuse me brando but who the f### is Debbie!? What happened to you and me? Don't you remeber when you called me your majestic unicorn??? I thought we had something special looser! Or am I just imagining that weekend vacation in tijuasna when you rubbed lotion all over my tan muscular body? Well consider us DONE mister!

Btw Debbie, did you know about are apartment in wrigleyville?

MANdo

Creighton,
You spoke the words, have the "stones" to back them up. I'll be waiting for you on opening day and my next weeks winning powerball numbers. If you are so right all the time, be ready to swallow your pride (and that's a HUGE mouthful) and admit when you were dead A@@ WRONG! BTW I didn't see this one coming either, but I wasn't the one popping off at the mouth.


Good call on some receivers late in the draft. Kelly went to my high school so I am well aware of his skills. He is a leaper and runs good routes. Hands are pretty good. The knock is he is inconsistent and awfully skinny. Not sure about his blocking capabilities. I've heard good things about Burden. From what I've heard he has some huge upside (meaning he could be a washout) Anyway, I'd take a flyer on him, but he may not be there late in the fifth. probably could get him with the pick in 5 we just got from Denver, but we'll be picking D by that time.

Genetlemen, I must confess that I am a tad green with envy.

I mean, Creighton has Brando, Da Church has Bill Holland, Jerseyboy has psychiatric wards...I'm wondering, where's my arch-nemesis on these blogs? It just seems like the "in" thing these days and sure, I've had some minor squabbles with fellow fans, but none on the level you guys have taken it to.

Sigh. I feel like such an outcast.

Joe Fellicelli; I hope you are right about Delmas at 49, I'm worried he won't be there, and I'm sure the Eagles are looking at him hard also, they lost Dawkins and we lost Brown, Delmas is the kind of player that we could use he combines both speed and hitting ability I don't think we would get from Rashad Johnson, I know alot of people want us to pick Robiske or Nicks here, I'm sure Nicks will be gone based on mocks I've seen, but Robiske may still be there in the third at 99, and if not then we might be able to get Barden from Cal=Poly or Massaquoi for the posssesion receiver opposite Hester. This is setting up for an interssting draft in Chicago...Go BEARS !

Mike:

I can relate, where is the hate?

You forgot PackerBacker, he has this true affection and desire to be a Bears fan and just does not know it yet.

NeckBeardSucks was vying for a little hate but has now mellowed with Cutler coming to the rescue.

Brando loves to be Creighton's bit__, at least that is my impression.

Or maybe Creighton and Brando are the same person, split into a multiple personality situation, like some of those scary movies where one day this individual dresses up like Brando and the next day as Creighton. Now they have digressed and they have split into a third personality, the wife. Are they now changing into panty hose on various days because they believe they, he, she are now the wife?

Alfred Hitchcock where are you when we really need you. Pyscho!! OMG!!!

Now that is really scary!!

It's going to really hard for the Bears to trade up in this draft utilizing the draft pick value chart mentioned in this blog entry and the scenario that it follows shows it might be nearly impossible. The Bears at a minimum would have to offer up a player, and what position are we deep enough at that we can offer up a player and draft picks to move up to get a player like Britt, DHB, Nicks etc.

NFL Draft Pick Value Chart and Bears trade options

Typo on the article. The Giants did not give up 3 1st round picks. They gave up a 5th round pick, which was subsequently traded for Roman Oben.

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This page contains a single entry by Brad Biggs published on April 8, 2009 12:45 PM.

A closer look at two more WR possibilities was the previous entry in this blog.

WR Massaquoi talks after private workout with Bears is the next entry in this blog.

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