Chicago Sun-Times

Four Down Territory, Feb. 24: The growing buzz for WVU's Pat White

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We only knocked out three questions on Monday so we'll even it up with five today. Let's get right to it:

Q: One thing I really took away from the combine was the performance of Pat White. I know everyone was writing him off as a quarterback because of his size but this kid did everything right. He had excellent throws all day. He also ran a very fast 40 for a quarterback. How would he look in a Bears uniform if they could get him in the second or third round?

Tyler K., Tulono, Ill.

A: You were not the only one who was impressed by White's dazzling display Sunday at Lucas Oil Stadium. It was quite a show and it will be interesting to see how much momentum White generates moving forward. Remember, it just takes one team to fall in love with a player.

Here is what they said on

2/24/2009--West Virginia's Pat White is a fine athlete who worked out at the combine as a quarterback and was relaxed in doing so. White is such a talent that teams are discussing what to do with him and when he should be drafted. He could be a No. 3 quarterback with a chance to be a No. 2, but he also can run the Wildcat, play slot receiver and return punts and kicks. As one GM said, "I want him on my team, and now I just have to figure out where I have to take him." - Pat Kirwan,

One quarterbacks coach we talked to wasn't sold on White at all, though. He said White has a big windup, is too small and doesn't run as well as has been advertised.

The issue, or one of the issues, is White is just 6-foot, 190 pounds. Can he play quarterback in the NFL on an every-down basis? I don't know if anyone has the answer to that question right now. His strong effort throwing the ball before coaches and scouts went a long way toward answering questions they may have had. Just as impressive as White was on the field, he was off the field, saying the right things. White said he was willing to do other positional workouts at the WVU pro day on March 12. One suggestion is that is not a good idea for his future.

As far as White in a Bears' uniform, the possibilities would be exciting. But recall how long it took the coaching staff to get Devin Hester integrated into the offense. Keep in mind the coaching staff has still, after two seasons, yet to show it can get running back Garrett Wolfe involved on any kind of consistent basis. General manager Jerry Angelo called the Hester selection in the second round of the 2006 draft a luxury pick. I'm not going to speak for Angelo or pretend to know where he is on this one, but I have a sneaking suspicion he might put White in that same category. With the Bears' needs moving toward the draft--offensive tackle, wide receiver, safety, pass rushers, cornerback--can they afford a luxury pick at the point in the draft they would have to strike to get White? Certainly White is an intriguing prospect and I am sure we will re-visit this one going forward.

Q: What would be the odds of the Bears signing Marvin Harrison since he was released by the Colts? Or do you believe they will stick with the core they have by moving Earl Bennett up?

Ish, Parts Unknown

A: Ish, congratulations on being the lucky winner of having your question picked out of the Marvin Harrison cap. There were many inquiries about this after news spread Monday that the Colts had informed Harrison's party that they would terminate his contract as a vested veteran this week. Not so fast, Colts owner Jim Irsay reportedly said.

Let's cover a few points here:

1. Let's assume that Harrison does hit the free market--it hasn't happened yet--are you really confident he'd have any interest in playing for the Bears after 11 seasons of teaming with Peyton Manning to be a record-setting combination? Free agency is a two-way street. You can have all the interest in the world but that doesn't mean the player will want to join you. Who knows if Harrison will choose to continue his career elsewhere.

2. Harrison turns 37 before the start of the season. He put up 60 catches for 636 yards (10.6 average) with six touchdowns last season in the high-powered Colts' offense. What does that translate to with the Bears? 40 catches? 35 catches? Do you really want a pay a premium for that kind of production?

3. Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been more attention given to the shooting near Harrison's Philadelphia garage that resulted in a wounding. Police found shell casings from his Belgian-made FN5.7 at the scene, reportedly.

4. Finally, bringing in a veteran like Harrison would go against the reasons Angelo laid out Saturday for moving forward without a veteran receiver. He cited the release of Bobby Engram in 2001 as a reason why Marty Booker flourished. The hope is Bennett, like you said, will be the next receiver to spread his wings.

Q: After reviewing what you saw at the combine do you believe the running back from Liberty, Rashad Jennings, would be a good pick for the Bears at No. 49 or will they not take a running back as early as the second round?

Heath D, Parts Unknown

A: While waiting to pick off some coaches by a bank of elevators in an Indianapolis hotel over the weekend, I happened across Jennings who was with his Washington-based agent Adisa Bakari, the same man who represents Matt Forte. Jennings is every bit as well put together at 6-1, 234 pounds as he's been advertised. He's coming from a small school but he spent one year at Pitt before transferring to be closer to his father, who is diabetic.

Jennings rushed for 1,507 yards and 17 touchdowns this past season, playing nearly the entire year with a broken pinkie finger. Here is how they broke down his game on

Positives: Good size with well-developed upper body. Played in part-time zone read offense, sometimes in I-formation. Good vision, able to change directions using quick feet. Can stiff-arm and run through tacklers in the open field by lowering his pads. Very good second gear once in the open. Runs tough inside, able to lean forward for additional yards. Looks natural catching the ball out of the backfield. Will keep his feet churning after contact and fight for the first down or goal line. Can hit an inside hole quickly. Surprisingly quick stop-start if the hole is not there immediately.

Negatives: Played against a lower level of competition, although he had one year of experience in the Big East. Runs loose; must consistently keep the ball high and tight to prevent fumbles. Only gets in the way as a blocker, giving marginal effort. A bit stiff in the hips, and is not overly shifty. Runs a bit tall, which will leave him open to big hits in the NFL. Must sink his hips when cutting.

Some are projecting Jennings to go in the second round like Forte. I don't see the Bears using a draft pick on a running back and expect Garrett Wolfe to get the first crack as the complement to Forte.

Q: What is the chance of Nathan Vasher getting a crack at the nickel back spot? I know they have Danieal Manning penciled in as the nickel, but they've already moved him several times, and the chances of him being moved again are rather high seeing as how he might be the best option at free safety over both the draft and free agency. I'd like to keep Manning at nickel, but I also seem to remember Vasher playing pretty well as a nickel his rookie season. I know he's getting paid quite a bit, but the way Lovie Smith talks about the nickel back, it seems as though it's more important to his defense than a strong-side linebacker.

Anthony, Parts Unknown

A: My 2004 recall is sputtering a little bit this afternoon ... I don't know how much time Vasher actually spent at nickel, if any. That position was primarily manned by Mike Green during Vasher's rookie season. Vasher's never been considered a physical corner and he doesn't exactly look to mix it up out there. That's what you need from the nickel, who is essentially your strong-side linebacker with coverage skills. There are run support responsibilities. I don't see Vasher getting a look in this area and based on what Smith said Saturday, I'm betting Manning does not get moved. You'd think the Bears would eventually learn that shifting him all over has not helped.

Q: The Bears are facing another draft, and so another golden opportunity to blunder. Is Jerry Angelo doing anything to avert the disasters of the past several years, other than wondering if taking health issues seriously is a good idea? The Bears have precious little to show for the past three or four drafts, and injuries and character are only a small part of the talent evaluation and development crisis. What, if any, indications are there that the team will do concrete things to improve in these areas?

Michael K., Indiana

A: It was a year or so ago that Angelo said he was approaching the draft from a different position when it came to evaluating football character. Probably stung by the failure of running back Cedric Benson, and perhaps to a lesser degree the shortcomings of Tank Johnson, Angelo wanted to re-evaluate his approach. Aside from that, I can't tell you anything has changed. What kind of tangible changes are you suggesting? Sure, it would be great if they could hire Bill Polian away from the Colts to get some of his draft acumen. No one has had more consistent success with lower picks than him. Certainly the fruits of the last several drafts haven't proven to be very good.

For what it's worth, Ole Miss offensive tackle Michael Oher lauded the Bears for being one of the more organized outfits at the combine. Unfortunately for Angelo, he's not in position to get a can't-miss player sitting at No. 18. Stay tuned.

Thanks for the questions. We'll do it again on Wednesday. As always, thanks for reading.

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To be fair "The Bears have precious little to show for the past three or four drafts" is a bit of an overstatement. 2006 did give us Manning, Hester, and Anderson who hopefully still pans out. 2007 got us Olsen, Payne, and Graham. 2008 got us Forte and Harrison, and my jury is still out on Williams and Bennett. Bowman looked good in his one game too, and Steltz is fine value for a 4th round pick.

I think aside from the obsession with Williams injury, which may or may not be a career factor, no matter how much any outraged Bears fan wants to pander at being a medical and sports expert...2008's draft looks pretty good. 2nd round starter at running back breaks 1k yards his first year. 3rd round receiver sits a year to get up to speed (go figure). 3rd round tackle makes an immediate impact, including a huge play in our season opener. 4th round DB gets some playing time, does okay but not amazing, and is a back up safety. 5th round DB comes into a game, scores a TD, gets a pick, and gets hurt.

So really, Williams was hurt, and you are burned that our 7th rounders didn't contribute in their first season? 2008 may be the best Bears draft since...2000, when we got Urlacher and Mike Brown on day one?

brad, so what oher's saying is the bears have mastered "organized confusion" when it comes to draft evaluation.

11 starters in 63 picks tells you everything you need to know about angelo & co.

Brendan are you for real? Manning your listing as a success, he was the first pick for the Bears in 2006. He is a special teams player and stinks as a starter. Anderson has had 2 bad years in a row. 1 Sack man, 1 sack and your saying thats good??? Harrison in 2008, what did he do? He looked ggod as a rotation guy in like 3 games and then vanished. Payne is bad, Olsen and is a decent reciever, but a first round talent, no chance can't even block and Graham is not a starter one of the worst pass defenses in football. Bowman, injury prone Zack Bowman??? 1 Game, Hurt, in college hurt all the time. There is no value for a 4th rounder or any pick if they suck. Williams Bad back, Harris Bad knee's, Harrison has leg issues, Dusty injury issues, Vasher injury issues, plus busts, Rex, Haynes, Benson, Bradley injury issues, Manning 2nd round special team player, Hester 2nd round special team player, Bowman ijury issues, Harrison injury issues and character issues, Dan Buzain are you kidding me, Mike Okowo what was that about, Wolfe 3rd round pick on special teams.

Your excited about Kevin Payne and Garham?? Rounds 1-3 are suppose to be your starters, our guys are either busts, let go, or on special teams. Oh or there injured on a regular basis. Your second round picks do not belong on special teams, OT's with herniated disks do not last long in the NFL, proven medical fact. Why do you think we have more holes than ever this year. This years draft is not as good as lasts year, were drafting lower and you bring up 2000, when we had a different guy doing the drafting.

Angelo is one of the worst drafter's out there, he is brutal, his claim to fame is that he has a lot of his draft picks starting on the Bears. So what, he doesn't go out and get free agents, who else is going to start??

I know this news may go a bit under the radar but the news of QB Sage Rosenfels possibly signing with the Vikings to me is huge. I felt like Rosenfels was the best back-up quarterback in the NFL when playing in Houston behind Schaub and when given the chance he could really shine. He's accurate, poised and throws a nice strong ball. I think Minnesota really did their homework evaluating him and seing that this kid has just simply been waiting for his opportunity and could very well be a solid starting quarterback in this league. I cringed when I saw that he's heading to the Vikings, who I personally dispise even more than the Packers. I know that some may or may not think this signing is big, but I happen to think that UNFORTUNATLY the Vikings may have hit correctly on this move.

To Bill Holland:

Relax about the viqueens getting Sage Rosenfels. There is a reason this is his third team (that I know of). He is a very solid backup but cannot sustain his play over a lengthy period. Rosenfels has been given chances to start and couldn't man up to it. Why would Houston get rid of a great backup for a fourth round pick? One of the reasons is Rosenfels is definitely not a starter. The Texans have no worries about that biting them in the heinie (remember, Schaub is not exactly a proven commodity either) and neither do I. This is a good move for Bears fans.

Creighton you're about half right in your assessment. What you're forgetting is the coaching staff's inability to develop talent. It's not all Jerry's fault. Sure Manning isn't a starter, but what do you expect when the coaches keep changing his position every season. The coaches also chose to rotate their linemen even though Harrison usually looked like the most producitive of all. Let's also not forget that a lot of the players Angelo drafted are playing well, but for other teams. Angelo has made mistakes (the Bazuin pick really sticks in my mind) but he has picked more capable NFL players than he's often given credit for. What he hasn't done is find a superstar. He hit one homerun with Hester, but then the coaches quickly turned him into a nobody. I would bet a lot of money that if Bill Cowher was coaching the Bears, Angelo would look like a genius.

bill H,
Sorry Brother, I get to see the Sage-master at work every weekend...That's why we BBQ instead.The dude is a hyped up Griese wanna-be.
As for White, This kid has knocked every odd aagainst him thru college...4 bowl wins anyone? then comes to the Senior Bowl and says "Get the F**K outta my way"! Then has to prove himself as a RECIEVER at the combine, and blows everyone away lobbing passes during the corner post drill!
This young man is a I guess he doesn't qualify for the Bears..but I'll be more than happy to follow his career. He is NOT a Randel-El, Dixon, Slash...He brings much more poise to the table as a QB!!

Creighton- Are you for real? Half the players you named had injury issues after drafting and playing in the NFL. It's a real nice way a twisting the truth. The fact is the Bears organization was an absolute mess before Angelo came in as GM. Did you forget to name the successful moves he's made? Ogunleye, Harris, Brown is solid, Tait, Miller (for two years), Hester-starter and game-breaker, Manning (he's a success because he was the Bears best defender last year besides Briggs), Briggs, Forte, Olsen, Beekman-starter, Vasher, Payne-solid when he plays SS, not FS, Graham-very solid. In my opinion, that's being very successful in the draft. Did you happen to see the game they played a few years ago that's held in February? Well JA was directly responsible for getting the Bears to the big game. Most teams have never even sniffed the SB. Get your head on straight.

Me? Wrong? Ha. I actually I blame both all the time I just get sick of writing about it.

Here wrap your minds around this one kiddies.

Looks like Snyder over in Washington, is getting ready to do what he does best. With Washington being one of the richest teams in the NFL Dan the man is set to go after and sign Haynesworth, if that is not enough Carolina who is shopping Peppers for a draft pick in the teens may also be on Snyder's radar as he hold the 13th pick in the nfl draft. His two biggest needs are DE and DT. That will be one heck of a defense, they were already really good. Look for Washington to start cutting dead weight.

Can anyone tell me how the running back from Colorado State looked in the combine. He looked pretty good in the bowl games he played in and I read were he might be a 6th or 7th round pick. If he lasts that long he might be a great pick up.

Pat White would be a tremendous upgrade for our QB position!!!!.......Shoot, Vanna White would be too!!!!!.....................ORTON SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!

with Loive calling the defence this year what, if anything will change?

NBS, I agree about Orton but we all should be happy he is the starter....that way we again won't make the playoffs and we'll fire everyone, top to bottom!!!!! That is our only hope for salvation!!!!!

Can you tell me what plans the Bears have for DT Matt Toeaina, CB Zach Bowman and LB Jamar Williams? Thanks.

NBS, I do not totally agree with your insightful evaluation of Orton because I do think he's a good back-up, especially in nasty weather. However I do love the Vanna white comment. Who was it that said they should put skirts on the quarterbacks if they did not want them tackled? Has anyone at the combine seen Vanna's arm, or legs?

I didn't see Vanna's arm or legs but I heard her 40 time was alot faster than Orton's!!!!

Vanna can throw the deep ball alot better, too!!!!!!!!!!!

prophet you need a fact checker.

your comments:

1) Manning (he's a success because he was the Bears best defender last year besides Briggs.

surely you can't believe this. the second best defender on the team last year? that's just patently false. danieal manning was still making the same mistakes (not knowing man/zone) in week 17 of his third season in the nfl that he made as a rookie (hi reggie wayne TD in the super bowl).

2) Beekman-starter,

he was the starter by default because the bears had literally no contingency plan for their aging offensive line when ruben brown retired. sound familiar?..say like this off-season? could that be directly related to the fact that angelo spent nothing higher than a 7th round draft pick on the o-line from '03 to '07, not selecting a single lineman in '04, '05', '06?

3) Did you happen to see the game they played a few years ago that's held in February?

so getting to the super bowl is good enough? the bears have gone 16-16 since the super bowl, which makes you wonder just how good that team really was.

jerry angelo apologists really amaze me. what has he done in 8 years time? he's still trying to win with his version of the '02 tampa bay bucs in '09. the nfl has passed the bears by.

the bears offense has ranked above #26 in total offense ONCE in 8 years. that's utterly pathetic and a systemic failure of talent and development. not a single pro bowl player drafted on offense in 8 years time.

he went out of his way to insulate rex grossman from competition, how'd that work out? 16 different starting qb's since angelo's been here.

14 different starters at safety since '03. outiside of the 3-technique the most important position in the tampa 2.

easily the worst group of wr's in the nfl three years running.

aim higher. angelo is nothing more than an average GM. face the facts, or continue preparing your defense for mediocrity.

The last time I saw Vanna, she almost had as much facial hair as Orton does, too!!!!

Brad: I have a question for you that I think would interest most of the regular bloggers.Could you give us a breakdown of the BEARS drafts vs. NFC Central foes and select NFC contenders over the last few years? It should show number of picks?, those that are still in league?, team starters?, busts or cut? all-pro's (popularity contest) if any and years on the team that drafted them? For some of my friends out here who are regular Angelo bashers it would be interesting to grade him out against his peers.

Next up I'm sure we'll have Lovie bashers saying he can't coach em up! Guys building a team is not a simple as building a house you don't just draw up a plan buy materials and build it. In the NFL you are dealing with personalities, injury issues, and players not fulfilling the promise they projected out at the combine. I feel we have some good players on the roster Angelo brought in an Lovie has coached up, but then again we have the major busts, Bazuin and Okwo, along with Haynes to name a few LARGE ones, but guys like Rex had playing time and just did not produce is that Angelo's fault? Columbo could'nt stand up straight when he was in a BEARS uniform, and if you remember his dirty play has contributed to the injury issue Tommie Harris has had over the last few years. I'm with the BEARS and this staff for making the team relevant again in the league, Angelo is the best GM we had since Vanisi......Go BEARS must like being average and living in mediocrity. These current guys are a joke and are just getting by. If they had "real" jobs, they would have been fired years ago!!!!

Chitown: I agree. When one looks back at the Wanny years, when we had one horrible draft after another for nearly a whole decade, it puts the Angelo regime in a different light. Hey, we did make it to a Super Bowl, remember? And as an optimist, I'd like to think we can do it again sometime soon. I don't think the window has shut yet.

hey brad, per chitownbear's request, i'll save you some time as i did the very analysis he requested on another message board.

i will compare the bears to other teams first round picks as i'm so tired of people continually perpetuating the myth that angelo has done well in the draft when that's simply not the case at all.

bear in mind most of these teams were drafting AFTER the bears in these drafts, here you go:

ravens/ozzie newsome:

joe flacco
haloti ngata
terrell suggs
ed reed
todd heap
jamal lewis

steelers/kevin colbert:

lawrence timmons / lamar woodley (1/2 picks same draft, hit on both)
santonio holmes
heath miller
ben roethlisberger
troy polamalu
kendall simmons
casey hampton
plaxico burress

chargers/aj smith & john butler:

antonio cromartie
shawne merriman (also got luis castillo, vincent jackson, darren sproles this draft)
phillip rivers
quentin jammer
ladanian tomlinson & drew brees

carolina panthers/marty hurney

johnathan stewart & jeff otah
jon beason
deangelo williams
thomas davis
chris gamble
jordan gross
julius peppers

new york giants/jerry reese & ernie accorsi

kenny phillips
reese's first draft = aaron ross, steve smith, kevin boss, ahmad bradshaw
mathias kiwanuka
corey webster (also got justin tuck, brandon jacobs this draft, talk about making the most of 4 total picks)


justin harrel
aj hawk
aaron rodgers
ahmad carrol
nick barnett
javon walker


adrian peterson
chad greenway
troy williamson
kenechi udeze
kevin williams
bryant mckinnie

any questions, chitownbear? i can keep going but the point is clear. angelo does not stack up with the astute GM's in football.

The Bears aren't as bad as the pessimist would like to think. Chicago did miss the playoffs [and that really sucks], but not by as much as you [the pessimist], would like to think by. If the Bears would have won one more game, they would have been a playoff team. The Bears lost to the Panthers, Buccaneers, and Falcons to a combined 8 points. The Bears could have won any three of them games. And don't forget the mighty Titans, Chicago lost to them by 7 whole points, who knows, with Orton, maybe the Bears win that game?

The Bears certainly have took a step back since the Super Bowl. Partly due to a Super Bowl hangover, injury, and player development which is due to the Bears replacing outgoing veterans. The hangover is the fault of the Bears, but the rash of injuries to core players, and player development while replacing outgoing veterans isn't.

The key injuries were Tommie Harris, Brian Urlacher, Kyle Orton, and Charles Tillman. The good of it, all of the above mentioned players played hurt, so you got to give them that much. Had Harris, Urlacher, Orton, and Tillman not have been banged up, the Bears could have easily made a play-off run. Both Urlacher and Harris will be 2 years removed from their respective injuries, so they should both be a lot more effective than they were in 2008. Both Harris and Urlacher should be more effective this upcoming season, helping the Bears. Orton and Tillman got banged up during the season, and I know, I know, injuries happen, but both players should also be healthy and ready to contribute more effectively in 2009. Again, there wasn't one play-off team that had as many injuries to core players like the Bears did in 2008. The Bears will be a better team with Harris, Urlacher, Tillman, and Orton healthy.

The player development to outgoing veterans I mentioned above were players like Josh Beekman, Devin Hester, Kevin Payne, Corey Graham, Marcus Harrison, and even Matt Forte. Yes Forte was a beast his rookie year, but Im sure he learned a thing or two as a rookie and should be even better in his second season. At receiver Devin Hester should also be more effective in his second season as a full time starter. Over the final 6 games Hester caught 25 of his 51 receptions on the year, Hester will be a more effective receiver in 2009 along with tight end Greg Olsen. Guard Josh Beekman came on as the year went on, like Hester, Beekman should be a lot more effective in his second season as a starter. Kevin Payne will be a better player at his more natural position strong safety, and Corey Graham is gonna only get better with another year under his belt. Along with these players coming on with experience, the Bears will have some more younger up and coming players in the mix with receiver Earl Bennett, tackle Chris Williams, and running back Garret Wolf. If you take the time to look, this team does have some young talent that should get better in 2009 with more NFL experience.

So along with health to core players [Harris, Urlacher, Tillman, and Orton], younger players getting better with experience [Hester, Beekman, Payne, Graham, Harrison, and Forte], and some more younger players who weren't ready to contribute before, but should now [Bennett, Williams, and Wolfe], this Bears team isn't going to be as bad as the pessimist would like to think GO BEARS!!

chitownbear said "Angelo is the best GM we had since Vanisi......"

haha. pretty easy for angelo to be the best considering he's the first/only GM we've had since vanisi. that's quite an endorsement there.

barack obama is the best president we've had since george w. bush!
What the Vikes don't have enough linemen? Sure would like to hear the Bears are going after someone!

No offense but the won/loss record speaks for itself....If the Bears go far in the playoffs then there would be far fewer fans critisizing the Coaches/Players/Mgmt. Our won/loss is not good - What is our overall record since 1985?
I know the record from 1993-2003 is 76-103 - I'm at work and don't have the time to get the correct record from there but it's not a great record by any stretch, and the record after the Super Bowl speaks for itself as well, optimism is great but without good won/loss records it's kinda hard to be optimistic.

And for the best Idea do the won/loss record on Angelo alone, I have always thought Angelo was pretty good but the last 2 years alot of holes and problems have started appearing for some reason...
Won/Loss is where it is, bottom line - we win fans are happy, we lose fans are not happy

You can all "blah,blah,blah,blah,blah..." but as long as Orton is the starting QB, we will go nowhere!!!!!...I hope all you Bear fans wake up and boo Kyle this year like you did Rex......Maybe Obama can coach us because "WE NEED CHANGE"...!!!!!!!!!!

As much as I hate to say it.....We should be more like the Vikings!!...Last year they needed to improve their pass rush, they go out and make a big trade that took guts but improved them tons.....This year, they need a QB and they're busy trying to make another trade to better themselves!!!!!.......We sit around and look stupid and say our coaching will improve us!!!!hahahahahahahahaha we are a joke!!!!!!!!Get off your fat a$$e$ and do something before it's too late!!!!!!

Prophet what are you talking about? What half of the guys I named didn't have injury isses in college? First off there still a mess. You say Manning is the Best defender after Briggs??? Are you joking? He can't even make it as a starter. Goon has recorded double digit sacks only once as a bear, looked like garbage last year, Harris is injury prone or did you forget that? Who says he drafted Brown? He has been trying to replace Brown sense he took over the draft, why do you think he drafted Haynes which is Angelos first real draft with the Bears or did you not know Jauron had the player personel powers while he was here, which means he did not draft Brown. Did he not try to replace Brown with Anderson as well, or did you forget that too?

"Briggs, Forte, Olsen, Beekman-starter, Vasher", so after 6 drafts you can name 5 guys who you think are good, do you know how bad that is? Beekman is a backup and will be backing up again. He got the starting job when Metcalf got hurt, and was the second worst player on the line, Olsen is average, he wants to be a reciever, he can't block and he is soft. Vasher has done nothing in too years, and you think this makes him good? He had 1 good year got a check, 1 and done. Angelo has Briggs, Forte and he signed Tait, thats about it. The biggest problem on the Bears was that the middle of the field was super soft. You know were Payne plays. One of the worst secondaries in football, and you think there all good. Well the proof is on the field, and they ranked 30th in pass defense, all that talent Tillman, Graham, Steltz, Payne, Brown, as you say and they were just above the Lions? I guess you forgot to mention that, oh and thats with the 8th easiest schedual in the NFL. 2007 28TH ranked defense, 27th in Pass defense, 2008 21st ranked defense, 30th in pass defense, boy that sure look like a mess to me, but you think that is a good job. Plus the offense still sucks. Were a running team right? 2008 26th ranked offense, 24th in rushing, 2007 27th ranked offense 30th ranked rushing attack. So we get off the bus running, sure don't look that way to me.

Wow Angelo is a genius, he has fans like you thinking that he is doing a good job, it must be real hard for a GM to get a team to rank in the bottom third in the league in almost every major catagory outside of special teams(Thanks Taub). My personal favorite comment of your is that he gave us Fred Miller and you think it's a good thing. Ummm gosh thanks. This statment says a lot about you. As for injuries, and character that you question me about, let see.

Mark Bradley, Tore his ACL his sophmore year in college
Marcus Harrison JR. Year had a knee injury that required surgery also got busted for possession.
T Harris had mulitple Groin injuries in college, Doctors at the combine said he had the knees of a 40 year old man.
Graham missed half a season with a leg injuy in 2006
Zack Bowman missed all of the 2007 season with a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee, he also missed the entire spring that year with another injury, and then got hurt with the Bears.
Chris Williams had a herniated disk in his back before he was drafted as reported buy everyone and there mother.
Dusty D, gotten kicked off the Sooners for getting in a Bar fight, had a prior history of Violance according to police, and suffered through multiple minor foot injuries and a bicep injury related to power lifting.
Nathan Vasher had multiple little dings in College including groin and ankle injuries. Sound familier?
Tank Johnson, had major character issues in college
Benson again had major questions about his character in college
Brandon Lloyd, well known team A hole

Yep no injury issues or character problems on that list. The Best 4 players on the Bears the last 10 years were not drafted by Angelo.

M Brown
A Brown

These are Angleo's best
Forte Talented multi down load back, similar to Jones( Almost forgot you mentioned Jones, you know the guy he got rid of for Benson) Oh I guess you forget that too. You forget a lot of things.
Tillman, still gets killed by good recievers and is not a true cover corner.

Not saying Angelo needs to hit on all his picks he has done a solid job drafting decent mid round corners, but thats about it. Missing on most of your first round picks and having half your 2nd and 3rd round guys on special teams or busts is not good for building a team. I rank him above Millen and a couple of GM's but he is not one of the Best, he is not even close. He stank in Tampa and he stinks here.

kevin, re-read your most recent post and see how many if's and should's and could's you mention. how about this: if the packers don't miss a gimme field goal against the bears the phantom playoff hopes aren't even possible.

putting any hope/expectation on bennett and c. williams is blind faith, the bears learned nothing about either one of them last year....other than earl bennett couldn't crack the lineup of the worst wr corps in the nfl. i can hear the retort, oh he was only a rookie. so was eddie royal, so was desean jackson.

josh beekman came on as the season went on? how? the bears stunk in rushing last year and short yardage situations, which falls on the guards & centers.

why didn't garrett wolfe play last year?

since the super bowl, what "outgoing veterans" did the bears replace last year other than ruben brown? moose? the bears cut moose. you're just making things up.

we are all bear fans on here. some optimistic, some aren't. i just don't operate on blind faith for fairly obvious reasons.

the goal of every bear fan should be the super bowl. the bears are nowhere near a super bowl right now.

Hey Chi, I'll do it but I am going to include all contenders, not just NFC, to win a super bowl you have to play the AFC. I will include missed needs best players taken in that round, the north division, All Pro and Pro Bowlers. All Pro by the way is not a popularity contest, Pro Bowler is , but not All Pro. I will start with the 2003 draft as that was the first draft Angelo had player personel powers.

creighton, i already did it, and to clarify '02 was angelo's first draft.

Hey Creighton, thanks I really would like to see a comparison, as for the list Dan in wicker park compiled it clearly only shows hits and not misses which we seem to have no problem doing on Angelo's drafts, until I see your list which I'm sure will be pretty thorough I'll stay with my original assessment that Angelo is not as bad as other' GM's, and this statement does not include Matt Millen, obvious, but does include Jerry Jones, and Karl Peterson who had a twenty year run in for you Hadji when you can tell me something about being a BEAR fan prior to 2003 that makes sense,then you can gain some respect, because so far you have not proven to me you know much about the game or the team........

Dan in wicker park, after an examination of your list let me point out some things you listed to prove my point at this time, look at what you list for Minnesota the only players I like ther are AP, and possibly Mckinnie, all the rest suck, next up slackers who I hate no matter what they do, only like barnett and jury is still out on both Hawk and Rodgers making impacts, the rest are marginal players, Giants whose drafts I like Kiwanuka has not shown well at all they have the same issues with him we have with Manning,what position can/does he play, panthers look solid but again you cherry picked what you liked not where they screwed up, all the rest of the AFC teams have done well but again those listed are top of the drafts and not showing what they do in late rounds, still I would agree the AFC has consistently held more talent than the NFC for the decade and yes I love what the steelers and chargers have done on your board ....but Dan here is the point I made you are missing the draft is more than 1 round and for Angelo to be evaluated solely on his firstround picks he would lose, but when you examine the depth of his drafts and the production he gets he has held up well, I think if you'd look further into the research you have already complied you'd start to see things a little differently, now with the research you complied youmust at least say he's the best GM in the NFC Norris, or are you so blinded by jagr that you can''t admit that....Go BEARS.....

Forget it, it's to much to type do your own research.

I can tell you this, far and away

Have been the best at drafting sense 2003, Angelo started out well in 2003 but every year he seems to have gotten worse. 2005 seemed to be some sort of turning point in Bears drafting. Biggest problem with all of his drafts have been a lack of impact players. Harris was one and so was Hester. But outside of those 2 it's pretty much average players mixed in with busts. Until Forte.

GB has done a solid job, MIN is average and we all know what Detroit has done. I can also say this the Bears have really missed out on some nice talent, the trade down in 2003 really hurt the Bears. If Harris and Vasher can't get it together looks like 2004 will be a bust big time. In fact over the last two years, you can say it has been a bust. 2005 is a disaster for the Bears. 2004 is hanging in the balance, 2005 The Benson and Bradley picks really hurt them, only Orton remains from that class, 2006 gave us Hester, but thats about it unless Anderson turns it around, Manning was the first pick and is a Nickle back not a good draft at this point. 2007 Gave you Olsen, who has been Average, if you like Payne and Graham and a really bad secondary then you will love this draft. 2008 is way to early to tell, but you have Forte which is good, but the Bennett, Williams situation looks really bad so far, and the Steltz and Davis picks seem like wasts considering the 2007 draft gave you a starting TE and several picks were dedicated to DB's, Harrison can go either way, looked both good and bad. Bowman has a ton of talent but his injury history is bad plus again after all the DB picks in 2006 and 2007 you really didn't need to go DB again, Bowman makes some sense because he is a projected FS but Steltz was a waste. 2008 needed to be an excellent draft and so far outside of Forte it's a bust. But only time will tell. We will probably loose several guys from the 2006 class this year. In the last 3 years the Bears have drafted 7 DB's thats an entire draft worth of them and thats with Vasher and Tillman having big contracts.

One good player a draft doesn't get it done, you need 3-4 guys out of each draft who can play. You want at least 1 of them to be an impact player. Ranking his drafts,

2003 Gave you Tillman and Briggs but also gave you two first round busts, it was a strong draft class that year to boot. Grade C-

2004 You have Harris and Vasher, both have been injury plauged the last couple of years. If they don't turn it around the grade is F, if they do it's a B

2005 You have Orton, grade F-

2006 Hester and Manning and thats about it, grade as of today D, why you ask, a Nickle Back and a 600 yard reciever. What grade would give another team for that? The Grade can improve if Hester works out and Manning becomes a stud FS.

2007 Olsen, Wolfe, Beekman, a 500 yard TE, a special teams player taken in rd 3 and back up guard. Grade C-, If Olsen leans how to block and get in the 700 plus yds range and becomes a legit end zone threat the grade will change. If Beekman starts next year and does well the grade will change same for Wolfe. But as of right now any team can go into a draft and come out with those 3 things with there eyes closed. If Graham and Payne start and do well and the pass defense goes from 30th to the teens the grade will change. You may not like it but thats fare.

2008 Forte, nothing much else so far, Grade D, why you ask, because any fool can trade every pick they have and get a running back.

chitownbear, you love the bears kool aid. i cherry picked for the panthers? that's every first round pick they've made during the time angelo has been here. you are seriously in denial of why the bears are a perennial mediocre team that gets lucky every 20 odd years. get some facts, do some research, chitownbear. you're incredibly delusional about the state of the bears.

kevin williams sucks? he's arguably the best defensive tackle in football. so let's see, the vikings hit on a franchise RB, LT, and DT, the packers hit on a franchise QB, a playmaking WR, and 2 stud LB's....but the bears first round picks of:


are better? dude, really? first round picks should be blue chip players, something the bears severely lack relative to the rest of the league.

i like how you focus just on those two nfc north teams and not the rest of the list. saying you're better than the other teams in the nfc north these days is akin to being the tallest midget.

Now you see why I asked Brad to do it with the computers he's got and assistants....LOL...nice post Creighton, I can see and agree that 05 and 06 were bad even with Hester who I know you remember was drafted as a return guy, I think that grade should go to B- minus for his performance the 1st two years alone.....but the Bazuin and Okwo picks bring it down no doubt, I'm suprised you gave 03 a c- minus wasn't that REX and Haynes's year???, I like 07 and think that 08 was solid as well the key here is Harrison and Bennett coming on plus Bowman staying healthy. I agree 3-4 guys per year who can and do play, most of ours drafted fit that desciption, alot of the guys drafted since 05 have been special teams performers, but not too many have stepped into starting roles, I'm suprised you still don't like Graham, he is a playmaker and solid against the run.....but in looking at your re-cap one thing is clear no real playmakers have been drafted on defense since Harris (payne is close needs to do it another year)and that shows me why the numbers have declined on that side of the me it was the Okwo and Bazuin drafts that have hurt this team, Angelo admitted those mistakes and cut them early last year, so from what I can see here two good years 04 and 07, two BAD years 05 & 06, and two c grade years 03 & 08, although 03 produced two all-pro's Tillman made it in 04 I think and Briggs, and the 08 draft holds promise depending on Williams and Bennett who drag down the grade because they did not get on the field.....Creighton after those 6 teams you listed who all are strong (I agree) at the draft is correct, but look the BEARS are doing better than these teams...Den. SF, SEA, WASH, Philly, Pack, DET, VIKES, ATL, NO, ARZ, StL, Cincy, KC, Raiders, Buff, and until last year can you see my point???

creighton, some of the grades are harsh, but here's a distilled down list:

63 total picks
28 still on the roster
12 starters as of the end of the '08 season

02 draft: 9 selections / 3 still on the roster / 1 starter
03 draft: 12 selections / 2 still on the roster / 2 starters
04 draft: 8 selections / 2 still on the roster / 1 starters
05 draft: 6 selections / 1 on the roster / 1 starter
06 draft: 7 selections / 5 on the roster / 2 starters
07 draft: 9 selections / 6 on the roster / 4 starters
08 draft: 12 selections / 9 on the roster / 1 starter

03 to 05 was just a dreadful stretch. picks like forte, yes they panned out, but they're in essence re-drafts since he busted on benson.

chitownbear, what say you now?

Dan, this is all I have to say to your last post, the list doesn't lie..........but look the BEARS are doing better than these teams...Den. SF, SEA, WASH, Philly, Pack, DET, VIKES, ATL, NO, ARZ, StL, Cincy, KC, Raiders, Buff, and until last year can you see my point???.......BEARS kool-aid, no I like my stuff a little harder.....I'm saying simply this the BEARS are not at the bottom of the league TALENT wise, Angelo has missed on players what G.M. doesn't but to bury this team the way you are is simply to me not correct...Angelo is drafting for a system, he found some gems and screwed up also, but when you examine the list I just posted would you want those GM's or Angelo drafting for the BEARS....

Dan Based on your numbers here is how I see it 44% of the draft picks selected still on roster, 19% of those are Starters, including two from the worst draft of his tenure the 06' draft doesn't look too bad to me, basically he's re-done the current roster with half his picks in seven years with roughly 1 out of every 5 becoming a starter... could be better but not bottom of the barrel, I would like the numbers to be higher 65 % or better for sticking on the roster, and 33% minimum as starters but these numbers certainly do not make him a bad judge of talent either.....I don't know Dan what would you want to see....the only thing I agree with is not enough 1st round hits, but the guy can draft for depth as your numbers suggest....I'll check back later for your thoughts

i'd take atlanta's gm tom dimitroff over angelo in a heartbeat. look at some of the key positions the broncos and eagles have hit at and you'd think twice about them as well. all you're illustrating is the fact that angelo is nothing more than average at his job.

angelo's drafting for a defensive system, but let me ask you this what offensive system to the bears run? the word bad comes to my mind.

more context, they've ranked above #26 in total offense ONCE since angelo has been GM, that's pathetic. ignoring the offensive side of the ball has wasted the prime years of what once was a fierce super bowl caliber defense, and that's on angelo & lovie.

Wow, my hats off to Creighton and Dan to have the patience to point out all the flaws in these drafts and Coaches.
Thanks guys for the stats and info!

I would take Philly, Ariz., Vikes, Atl, NO, players any day over the Bears players. Did you see the Vikes make our offense look like cream puffs? and what about the Pack 37-3???
I am not proud that these players are actually still on the roster as look at won/lost records sure maybe Coaching but heck 1,2,3,4, runs at the goal line, a good team beats a worse team in that situation, we got our clocks cleaned not once but 4 fr.... times, we simply did not have the talent/muscle to bust through, bad play calls sure but still the better talent stopped the mediocre talent, and yet you list the Vikes as having worse talent?

Thats a MAN Bad a.. statement thing - running straight ahead at the goal line, Wer'e saying Our Line is BAD! We can kill your line. and we didn't! Our line was not bad, they were the pits, sad but true. Thats a Football statement thing, and we did not make a good statement.

I actually liked Jerry Angelo up untill last year when he let the offense down and sure enough we fell like a rock, now I don't have much faith in Jerry at all.
Lets all hope for Free Agent!!!

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This page contains a single entry by Brad Biggs published on February 24, 2009 1:41 PM.

Four Down Territory, Feb. 23: Could Urlacher fill safety void? was the previous entry in this blog.

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